Mister Wolf
Member
beautiful difference , JUST ,ONE example of being IMPLEMENTED , properly , and with skill , scotsmanllien
Metro is still the best use of raytracing in my opinion. Not counting Minecraft or Quake.
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Metro is still the best use of raytracing in my opinion. Not counting Minecraft or Quake.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
I just played my first ever raytraced game... on the Nintendo Switch, ironically. And it was glorious. Those reflections are *chef's kiss*.
mancs
Member
because , it's been IMPLEMENTED good.
mancs
Member
another example , and tbh , it adds so much more , to the scenery , feel , mood , if IMPLEMENTED correctly,. a night at the museum game , imagine it , shiny floors , moody lights , shadows , no rtx , just relying on sound mostly, for the ambience, jump scares excluded.
don't come with raytracing is a waste , less you have a rig that can't run a game with rtx on, fair enuff....
Mister Wolf
Member
Warnen
Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
Mister Wolf
Member
20fps drop for prettier light... Well worth it
raytracing is for the wealthy.
Warnen
Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
or those with bad eye sight
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Raytraced lighting and reflections and whatever are nice, and more realistic, but they just don't make my jaw drop over a well done baked in global illumination solution.
Like give me the latter at higher resolutions, framerates, and other effects and I'm totally happy to not have real time raytracing.
Would I obsess over a puddle or a shiny surface on which a reflection or light bounce doesn't appear as accurate as it could if it was fully ray traced, like I'm Alex Battaglia or something? I could. People are making a living doing that now. But I wouldn't, cause the game would look awesome and run buttery smooth, and I'd probably want to spend more time playing it than pausing it to find things I wasn't even going to notice before Nvidia paid people to start caring in the first place. Humbug I say, to raytracing
Only if you really like static environments and scenes.
Any scene that is dynamic with alot of dynamic objects would need good GI.
If you still enjoy baked lighting with all the dynamic objects not being shaded correctly, thats fine its your opinion......but us living in a world where we want graphics to get better a good dynamic GI solution is godly, whether thats RT GI or some Voxel based solution I dont really care.
As long as its dynamic GI that works well that is all I need in my life.
Amiga
Member
That's the thing. RT seems to be a high precision tool that needs very talented experts. like DICE or the Metro developers. how many games per-year will that be. like VR I think it being introduced ahead of it's time. It needs 1) more devs to train for it. 2)better hardware. maybe we will get one or 2 console games that manage to achieve technical magic, but I don't expect it to be a thing before PS5Pro/XSX1X.
namekuseijin
Banned
new rumble ✔
fast loading ✔
60 fps ✔
split-screen ✔
80s raytracing ✔
yup, this is the most retro-ard nextgen jump ever. Capcom should forget RE and just bring back Ghouls'n'Ghosts in glorious raytraced button-mashing
fast loading ✔
60 fps ✔
split-screen ✔
80s raytracing ✔
yup, this is the most retro-ard nextgen jump ever. Capcom should forget RE and just bring back Ghouls'n'Ghosts in glorious raytraced button-mashing
KuraiShidosha
Member
How ANYONE can be satisfied with shitty screenspace reflections when you have the option for beautiful and flawless ray traced reflections, is beyond me. That is straight up magical and I have been waiting 20 years for this day. Cubemaps were great when they came out but it's time to put them to bed, and SSR should never have existed at all.
Nhranaghacon
Banned
People say Physics but what they really, really mean - a real true next gen feature - is Simulated rendering - that cover's collisions/physics and AI in actuality. But allows for a far more sophisticated/completely on the fly implementation. We all want more lifelike AI capable of holding conversation's and immersing the player. We all want 'physics' but most people don't realize that most physics you see in games are prebaked animation sets.
Having the capability to render simulation's in real time, be it physic's or AI - these are true next gen features no dev has touched on and normal consumer's will never be able to appreciate - something gamer's will only get to appreciate in full... if they youtube it.
Until then, nearly just about all physics seen in games - have been animated with an overhead modifier that allows for a very limited implementation of physics data - nothing compared to what simulated rendering would offer in games.
With that said, Simulations - not physics, but simulation rendering - is still a feature that renders at a few frames per second at best with the setting's cranked up.
We may be there in a another generation, no more than 2 with modest/mixed solutions.
The other true next gen feature is a Path Tracing engine somehow capable of delivering 500-1000 render passes immediately for interactive games - something we also probably wont see for another 2 generations. A PathTracing engine will allow/lead way to all visual implementations seen in CGI - and is what render farm's use to render movieframes (1 frame at a time) over the course of what used to take weeks - now in most cases hour's to days.
Ray Tracing is also very important but it will only increase modestly as time moves forward and is not an end all solution - whereas path tracing is. The above recommendation's - Simulated Rendering, Path Traced Rendering, AI Simulation Rendering - should be the most sought after next gen console features by gamers - gamers would do well to investigate theirself/petition their fave hardware manufacturers to push for realtime implementation. Until then, when you hear game A. is capable of doing these amazing things - understand their is still a level of baking/pre canned set up that simulated rendering/path traced rendering would completely alleviate. Meaning all physic and solely visual tech demo's we see on next gen hardware - only modest in what they actually deliver and completely, completely pale in comparison to simulated render's you can find on youtube.
Having the capability to render simulation's in real time, be it physic's or AI - these are true next gen features no dev has touched on and normal consumer's will never be able to appreciate - something gamer's will only get to appreciate in full... if they youtube it.
Until then, nearly just about all physics seen in games - have been animated with an overhead modifier that allows for a very limited implementation of physics data - nothing compared to what simulated rendering would offer in games.
With that said, Simulations - not physics, but simulation rendering - is still a feature that renders at a few frames per second at best with the setting's cranked up.
We may be there in a another generation, no more than 2 with modest/mixed solutions.
The other true next gen feature is a Path Tracing engine somehow capable of delivering 500-1000 render passes immediately for interactive games - something we also probably wont see for another 2 generations. A PathTracing engine will allow/lead way to all visual implementations seen in CGI - and is what render farm's use to render movieframes (1 frame at a time) over the course of what used to take weeks - now in most cases hour's to days.
Ray Tracing is also very important but it will only increase modestly as time moves forward and is not an end all solution - whereas path tracing is. The above recommendation's - Simulated Rendering, Path Traced Rendering, AI Simulation Rendering - should be the most sought after next gen console features by gamers - gamers would do well to investigate theirself/petition their fave hardware manufacturers to push for realtime implementation. Until then, when you hear game A. is capable of doing these amazing things - understand their is still a level of baking/pre canned set up that simulated rendering/path traced rendering would completely alleviate. Meaning all physic and solely visual tech demo's we see on next gen hardware - only modest in what they actually deliver and completely, completely pale in comparison to simulated render's you can find on youtube.
ruvikx
Banned
I want more interactivity with the environments (i.e. fewer static objects & more stuff to move, blow up etc.), which also includes way more destructible environments as well in shooters i.e. no more spamming grenades in a COD corridor shooter whilst the 3d environment remains totally static, or some scripted elements collapse the same way again & again. For example If I'm being chased by a monster in a RE game, I want to able to improvise some tactics inside a mansion & use the environment to my advantage i.e. move any furniture, block doors (not just with a wardrobe in one or two directions), throw objects, blow a hole in the floor to escape & I want it to remain as I left it without the game's map resetting itself to its default state (i.e. such as in GTA games where lampposts magically rebuild themselves).
I want better AI (yep, it's been stagnant for over ten years). I want larger open world games with way more buildings to enter & NPC's which aren't just zombies roaming around the map aimlessly (seriously, try following an NPC in GTA... just for laughs). I want better animations, more detailed character models, better physics, better controls & stable framerates.
But somewhere down the line some rich guys decided pushing 4K to sell TV's & using ray traced reflections to put lipstick on a pig was a way better option than doing any of the really hard stuff I listed above. So here we are, enjoy.
I want better AI (yep, it's been stagnant for over ten years). I want larger open world games with way more buildings to enter & NPC's which aren't just zombies roaming around the map aimlessly (seriously, try following an NPC in GTA... just for laughs). I want better animations, more detailed character models, better physics, better controls & stable framerates.
But somewhere down the line some rich guys decided pushing 4K to sell TV's & using ray traced reflections to put lipstick on a pig was a way better option than doing any of the really hard stuff I listed above. So here we are, enjoy.
Redefine07
Member
Ofc it is just look at Demon Souls we don't need RT yet , fuck it focus on 60fps most RT implementation looks off as fuck SSR is much better , TLOU2 had good one just work on that and focus on performance , game physics , animation and AI the AI in most games is dumb like wtf we got the same AI from PS1 games....and companion AI is fuckin terrible Gears 5 was so fuckin idiot.
Lethal01
Member
Pretty sure it not confirmed that Demons Soul's has raytracing.
There was an interview just this week where one of the developers talked about how integral it is to the game.
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Keihart
Member
Yes, it is most of the time if the production time and budget allows for more creative and less resource intensive ways...at least for now and i would dare say this whole generation. At some point it's gonna be cheap enough to make it worth the resource budget tho.
If used sparsely tho, even now can do some cool things in a cheaper way than other techniques, for example somewhat accurate reflections. The old way to do reflections like in Hitman it's way more resource intensive than some clever use of RT like in Spiderman on PS5.
Edit:
Isn't that using some form of neural networks and deep learning? if so, than the same RT type cores could be used as hardware acceleration for that, right? Turing RT cores are made for AI
If used sparsely tho, even now can do some cool things in a cheaper way than other techniques, for example somewhat accurate reflections. The old way to do reflections like in Hitman it's way more resource intensive than some clever use of RT like in Spiderman on PS5.
Edit:
Isn't that using some form of neural networks and deep learning? if so, than the same RT type cores could be used as hardware acceleration for that, right? Turing RT cores are made for AI
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Lethal01
Member
I think it's absolutely gorgeous already. I just always have to mention the future because people think it's a "gimmick" that's going to go away when the fact is that within 5 years people won't be able to say a game looks next gen without it.
Balducci30
Member
That’s fine - but a lot of people (myself included) think the power could be better used for things other than raytracing. Is it awesome? Sure. But it’s still not at the point where it is game changing enough to make a difference to most - that will come when we can do full pathtracing.
Business
Member
All due respect but I don’t think analogies are your forte.
Lethal01
Member
Nah, he's right.
ruvikx
Banned
But he isn't? Because 3D was a prerequisite for video games taking a forward step, whereas ray tracing absolutely is not. At least not yet anyway. That can & should come much further down the road. A better analogy would be someone in 2006 saying the ps3's power should be used to simply render ps2 era games at a higher res, whilst not pushing other elements (physics namely, but also AI, animation, textures & poly count). It would have been a total waste of power. See the point? i.e. blowing the ps5/Series X hardware power on ray traced reflections is totally redundant in terms of making the meat & bones of games better. When it's combined with an equally pointless push for 4k (so that ugly ass low poly NPC's & character models can be viewed with more pixels... because why not?), I say this industry is being pulled in the wrong direction.
HarryKS
Member
4k is more interesting and palatable than ray tracing.
Stuart360
Member
I dont think its a waste, its actually a good thing and will help devs long term, but its a waste in the sense than XSX, PS5, and obviously XSS are simply not powerful enough to do it justice.
I keep saying this but RT should of been kept for any potential mid gen refreshes, it would of actually been a good hook for Pro consoles, because any pro consoles certainly wont be powerful enough to run XSX/PS5 games at 8k, so what would the point be for mid gen refreshes?. RT would of been a solid reason.
I keep saying this but RT should of been kept for any potential mid gen refreshes, it would of actually been a good hook for Pro consoles, because any pro consoles certainly wont be powerful enough to run XSX/PS5 games at 8k, so what would the point be for mid gen refreshes?. RT would of been a solid reason.
ruvikx
Banned
4k is a magic one-size-fits-all fix for jaggies. It's like antialiasing on steroids. That's why it's immediately noticeable. Whether it's a good thing or whether it's just an example of how the tools aren't exactly efficient is another matter. I've seen games at 1080p with really good image quality (stuff like Uncharted 4 on the base ps4 for example) whilst other stuff at 1080p is jaggy as hell.
I still believe high poly character models & more detailed environments at 1080p will look far better than a 4k version of current gen games. Photorealism (if the genre demands it) has many layers & the "realism" of the stuff within the game counts more than the realism of the image quality IMO. Like watching Aliens on VHS still looks way more real than seeing Alien Isolation in 4K.
Lethal01
Member
It's the biggest step forward in visuals in like 10 years even though it's just getting started so nah, his analogy is perfect.
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rofif
Can’t Git Gud
4k an aa magic?!
Not at all. Raw 4k looks like trash even on 27" monitor which I have. Games now have so much specular aliasing that it's always visible unless You do TAA or DLSS. not even smaa helps to hide it.
ZywyPL
Banned
Everything is a waste until we get to the point where it's so cheap/fast to render it's not even funny. I remember when FullHD was a waste not so long ago, with one group of people saying that 1440x900 or 1650x1050 is "more than enough", and the other side saying "but once we get there there won't be any need for AA anymore!", well needless to say, both were wrong all along. 3D graphics were a waste to begin with as well once we switched from 2D, and look where we're at now, even many "2D" side-scrollers are 3D graphics. If the industry really listened to the nay-sayers, all the doubters, we would still be stuck with 8bit sprites since everything that pushes the industry forward is a gimmick/waste. As of today, the RT implementations are indeed kind of weak, we have (finally) accurate reflections and shadows, that's a decent start IMO, but once we get to real-time raytraced AO/GI and reach GCI-level of graphics, that's when we will stop hearing BS like this thread. Make no mistake tho - RT effects alone won't make up for washed-out textures, low polygon models, cringy animations, cartoony design etc., it all has to go along, you can't just slap RT/PT on a game just like that end expect marvelous results
Only on 1080p screens, where it get's downsampled with perfect 4:1 proportions. Native 4K rendering on a native 4K display still has aliasing and shimmering all over the place, that's just how displays work with their pixel-based nature, and there's no way around it, 8K, 16K, 64K, we will always need AA when it comes to raw rasterization rendering.
Only on 1080p screens, where it get's downsampled with perfect 4:1 proportions. Native 4K rendering on a native 4K display still has aliasing and shimmering all over the place, that's just how displays work with their pixel-based nature, and there's no way around it, 8K, 16K, 64K, we will always need AA when it comes to raw rasterization rendering.
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llien
Member
The only reason Minecraft RTX and Quake RTX exist as (largely faux) "full path tracing" games, is that they have ridiculously trivial geometry, but even in Quake it is a long set of tricks to get there.
tricks included to render and turn noisy crap above into something palatable:
Rendering at 1/4th of resolution
Old school DX3 dither hack for transparency
the actual resolution of traced rays - each bright dot in region is a ray that has been traced in just 4-bit chroma and all the dark space is essentially guesswork/temporal patterns tiled and rotated based on the frequency of those ray hits
This also tells you why NV loves TAA so much.
GaviotaGrande
Banned
With this kind of attitude I truly hope you don't lead anything on this planet.
Out of curiosity, do you actually know what step(s) in particular are affected by more complex geometry?
I would've assumed it's BHV lookups + the actual BVH updates for animated stuff, but kind of just guessing there
llien
Member
It is actually easy: more complex objects have lots of fine detail.
You need much more rays to render them, whereas with something like cube, you can cast a bunch and interpolate into a plain surface in-between.
Lethal01
Member
You literally just said you don't care that much about seeing more light.
Bankai
Member
It's all about realism. RT simulates the way light bounces accurately. I agree, not every game need it, but it's the future for sure.
No longer calculating "estimations", but true properties of light reacting to materials = the way to go forward.
But.. proper use of screen-space reflections can go a long way and performance should be prioritized over RT on next-gen consoles, I think. it's all a balancing-act for sure.
No longer calculating "estimations", but true properties of light reacting to materials = the way to go forward.
But.. proper use of screen-space reflections can go a long way and performance should be prioritized over RT on next-gen consoles, I think. it's all a balancing-act for sure.
At first I just thought is is comparison of AO pass and only diffuse pass(too lit, too flat, hardly noticable shadows, ao).
Then I noted the fps counter)