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The more I go back to XCOM 2, the more it cements as one of my all-time favorites

Sentenza

Member
I just finished another run with the game yesterday. Legendary difficulty, few cosmetic and quality of life mods, no gameplay modifications.
This has to be the 19th or 20th I complete at this point, and I'm not even exaggerating (the game save files tell me it's my 25th campaign in total, but I left a bunch of them before reaching the final mission because I was distracted by other stuff at the time).

Why am I suddenly talking about my habits with an old ass game released in 2016? Well, for two reasons: because I just want to and to offer a bit of perspective on where I'm coming from here.

To be honest, I started rather lukewarm to the Firaxis reboot of this franchise.
I enjoyed the first game to a fair extent, but I had some criticism about how they managed some parts of the game (like the over-simplified strategic layer) and having a closed number of fixed missions severely limited the enjoyment after a first playthrough. "Limited replayability", as they say.
I also wasn't exactly fond about how they changed the "action point" system of the original UFO Enemy Unknown with a "two moves per turn" one.

Fast forward few years, XCOM 2 came and improved the formula in several areas, while introducing few minor annoyances here and there plus a questionable (but not necessarily bad) shift in tone/setting.

THEN it was the turn of War of the Chosen, and despise the cheesiness of these overly-chatty megavillains acting as the player's nemesis, the amount of improvements it introduced was simply too large to ignore on a mechanical level.
Way more variety, way more mission types, a lot of side activities like the covert missions, a mechanic of "tiredness" that cleverly forced the player to rotate his soldiers way more often, more scientific achievements to make use of, etc, etc.

At some point in the past year the realization dawned on me: this is not a game I'm barely "enjoying" anymore. I think I'm officially in love with the game. The more I play it, the more I realize that I may actually like this even more than the original grandfather of the franchise, which is something I could never imagined I could hear myself saying few years ago. No matter how nostalgic of the original UFO I can feel, I get the distinct feeling that at NO point I ever found its tactical battles as frantic and exhilarating as when I'm pulling off some broken combo in War of the Chosen.

I never seem to grow tired of finding myself against what may seem at first overwhelmingly unfavorable odds, only to exploiting every trick I know about the game to turn these engagements into curb-stomp victories for my team of super soldiers.

You occasionally hear people complaining that there's too much RNG, "too much left to chances", that "you constantly miss 99% shots", but the more you get familiar with the mechanics, the more you'll realize that's mostly untrue, especially past the early rookie phase.
There's plenty you can do to *guarantee* yourself a victory instead of relying on "rolling dices" and crossing fingers hoping you'll land unlikely shots.
Sure-damage abilities, crown control, instant free actions that don't end your turn, etc.

As a gratuitous bonus, here's a random ass mission I recorded the other day:





P.S. On a side note the game is in super-sale at 4 dollah on Steam right now. But everyone considering giving it a chance shouldn't ignore the WotC expansion.

 
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Sentenza

Member
I've spent 100+ hours with XCOM2 and its expansions, but I still can't get used to being rushed both in the world view and in many missions. But that's probably me, I like to play slow and cautiously. It's still very fun, probably my favorite turn-based game of the last few years.

I wouldn't really say the game "rushes" you. The "Avatar Project Doomclock" is basically a fake threat that you'd have to go out of your way to lose a campaign to, and mission timers are more than lenient enough to make perfectly feasible to finish most missions with turns to spare.

Here's some stats from the campaign I finished the other day, for reference:

8DF64792D5D5B674C9BC87506F9879258CAA490E


As you can see most players seem to finish missions with an average of 3-to-5 turns still available.
 
10/10 game

I never did play WotC though. Playing The Enemy Within expansion I realized that while I liked some of the additions, a lot of it felt superfluous or even detrimental, the EXALT missions in particular. But I’ll probably try out WotC if I play another XCOM2 campaign so at least I can get the improved performance.
 
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Sentenza

Member
I want to get into these games, they also say gears tactics is great.
It was a competent game on its own, but honestly as a fan of the genre who played all the classics since Laser Squad, UFO and Jagged Alliance 2, I think GT doesn't hold a candle to XCOM2 + Wotc.
And neither does Phoenix Point, regardless of the gaming press at the time being hellbent to paint it as "XCOM evolved".

I never did play WotC though.
Well, you should.
As I implied in the OP, putting a bit of cheesiness aside it's a massive improvement to the vanilla game under any possible metric when it comes to mechanics. And getting rid of the Chosen also gives you access to the best equipment in the game, which is extremely satisfying to use.
 
Well, you should.
As I implied in the OP, putting a bit of cheesiness aside it's a massive improvement to the vanilla game under any possible metric when it comes to mechanics. And getting rid of the Chosen also gives you access to the best equipment in the game, which is extremely satisfying to use.
What about The Lost? That’s probably my biggest worry along with the general difficulty of keeping things balanced as more stuff is added to a game.
 

Sentenza

Member
What about The Lost? That’s probably my biggest worry along with the general difficulty of keeping things balanced as more stuff is added to a game.
Yeah... What about them? They are a fun diversion to spice things up, but hardly ever an actual threat. Every time you kill one the game refunds you an action, so you can even have a blast chain killing half dozens of them in a single turn and THEN focus your final shot against an Advent soldier.

Also, for anything the game adds to make your life "harder" it gives back twice as much to make your soldiers potentially stronger (better equip, breakthrough researches that make your weapons deal bonus damage, the option to invest point to train BOTH branches of your specialization tree, etc). If anything with War of the Chosen the game grows in complexity and variety but I'd argue it gets easier and easier by the late game, since your men snowball into absolute beasts (which is fun as hell. Fuck people who complain about that).
 
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xrnzaaas

Member
I wouldn't really say the game "rushes" you. The "Avatar Project Doomclock" is basically a fake threat that you'd have to go out of your way to lose a campaign to, and mission timers are more than lenient enough to make perfectly feasible to finish most missions with turns to spare.

Here's some stats from the campaign I finished the other day, for reference:

8DF64792D5D5B674C9BC87506F9879258CAA490E


As you can see most players seem to finish missions with an average of 3-to-5 turns still available.

Interesting stats. I never failed a campaign because of the Avatar Project, but in at least one playthrough I felt like I was close to failing. I also wonder if the world stats are only for a certain difficulty or for all of them.
 

Sentenza

Member
Interesting stats. I never failed a campaign because of the Avatar Project, but in at least one playthrough I felt like I was close to failing. I also wonder if the world stats are only for a certain difficulty or for all of them.
I was checking these numbers (and the ones in the other four slides I didn't post here) and in fact I suspect that at very least they probably don't differentiate between vanilla and WotC. Maybe even ignore difficulty levels altogether, but that's hard to tell.
Still, the first column are my stats, and as you can see I was playing at Legendary and with the WotC expansion, so there's that as reference. But admittedly I'm quite good at this. :messenger_smirking:

Also, another bonus video:

 
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Sentenza

Member
Third and last video, as a gratuitous excuse to bump the thread:



WARNING: This one is the final battle against one of the Chosen (I guess some people may count it as somewhat spoiler-ish, even if this is not meant to be a story-centric game, really). Done with a flawless rating, for the record.


NOTE: for anyone worried I may turn this thread as a "promotional tool for my Youtube channel": NAH, that's not going to happen.

First, because this is the last recording I made in the same day as the other two and I'm not planning to play more campaigns for at least few more weeks.
Second, because I don't really have an active channel to speak of, nor a user base. That's just my throw-away channel I use as a "random upload bin". It remains unused more often than not.
Third, because as you could probably see (assuming anyone actually bothered to click on these videos) I don't exactly put a lot on effort on making my random recording appealing to people. They are pretty much raw unedited footage uploaded as it is, without any commentary, caption, subtitle or shit.
 
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Fbh

Member
I really need to give this franchise another chance.

I once borrowed Xcom 1 and got frustrated in an early mission that back then felt cheap to me. There were some new types of enemies that had a giant range and my guys did little to no damage to them. They'd just run straight towards my guys from far away and tear them to pieces.

I never got if I was somehow underleveled or badly equipped for that mission.

But it was a long time ago and I wasn't really into the genre so I just returned it and went on to play something else
 
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What about The Lost? That’s probably my biggest worry along with the general difficulty of keeping things balanced as more stuff is added to a game.

I hate zombies and timers and I found vanilla XCOM 2 kind of meh. WotC is ridiculously amazing and The Lost are super fun.
 

Neil Young

Member
I absolutely love this franchise but I suck at the game. I always reach that point where the enemy is just so much stronger than me, it seems like, the next day. I'm going along, naming my soldiers after celebrities and porn stars, wrecking their alien ass....then bam...next level they seem to have developed the "kick my ass" technology and all my experienced soldiers are dead. But I keep going back, and losing.
 

Sentenza

Member
I really need to give this franchise another chance.

I once borrowed Xcom 1 and got frustrated in an early mission that back then felt cheap to me. There were some new types of enemies that had a giant range and my guys did little to no damage to them. They'd just run straight towards my guys from far away and tear them to pieces.

I never got if I was somehow underleveled or badly equipped for that mission.

But it was a long time ago and I wasn't really into the genre so I just returned it and went on to play something else

Yeah, you should. It's genuinely great if you can be to any degree into the genre. I'd say at this point it's the undisputed king of the genre among modern games (among the older ones it would probably be a tier between the original UFO and Jagged Alliance 2).

Back to the other observation: I don't really want to sound patronizing, but I'd like to point that it's a common recurring complaint among people who have little to no experience with the series blaming things on "bullshit RNG" or claiming that the game is "way too unfair" and have "cheap difficulty" or it's "impossible to beat if you're not lucky" after a first try.

I'll just tell you a strong counter-argument pointing why that's a baseless claim: there are plenty of people out there (myself included) who can RELIABLY and CONSISTENTLY play through an entire campaign at the maximum difficulty level without ever going as close to the complete disaster that inexperienced players can experience even at lower difficulty settings.
What would you say: do you think it's because they are exceptionally lucky individual and every dice roll they make is blessed by a shiny star?
Of course not. It's because they understand the game's logic well enough to be able to
1) predict outcomes
2) exploit enemies' weaknesses to dispatch them
3) know what targets to prioritize
4) have contingent strategies as a safety net.

Take the first of the three videos I posted in this thread (or just take my word for it if you understandably can't be bothered with it) and you'll see that in at least two distinct circumstances I had a "bad pull" where strong enemies jumped into the middle of the battle unexpectedly when I was already engaged with other enemies.
And the same keeps happening even in the following videos, really, because it's mostly the norm.
It's not with luck that I dealt with the situation. For how I play the game I hardly ever attempt anything below an 85% chance (if not as a throw-away action because I just don't have better options) and I treat anything below 100% as a gamble on which I try to not rely too much.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I just finished another run with the game yesterday. Legendary difficulty, few cosmetic and quality of life mods, no gameplay modifications.
This has to be the 19th or 20th I complete at this point, and I'm not even exaggerating (the game save files tell me it's my 25th campaign in total, but I left a bunch of them before reaching the final mission because I was distracted by other stuff at the time).

Why am I suddenly talking about my habits with an old ass game released in 2016? Well, for two reasons: because I just want to and to offer a bit of perspective on where I'm coming from here.

To be honest, I started rather lukewarm to the Fireaxis reboot of this franchise.
I enjoyed the first game fair extent, but I had some criticism about how they managed some parts of the game (like the overall strategic layer) and having a closed number of fixed missions severely limited the enjoyment after a first playthrough. "Limited replayability", as they say.
I also wasn't exactly fond about how they changed the "action point" system of the original UFO Enemy Unknown with a "two moves per turn" one.

Fast forward few years, XCOM 2 came and improved the formula in several areas, while introducing few minor annoyances here and there plus a questionable (but not necessarily bad) shift in tone/setting.

THEN it was the turn of War of the Chosen, and despise the cheesiness of these overly-chatty megavillains, the amount of improvements it introduced was simply too large to ignore on a mechanical level.
Way more variety, way more mission types, a lot of side activities like the covert missions, a mechanic of "tiredness" that cleverly forced the player to rotate his soldiers way more often, more scientific achievements to make use of, etc, etc.

At some point in the past year the realization dawned on me: this is not a game I'm barely "enjoying" anymore. I think I'm officially in love with the game.
The XCOM remake and XCOM 2 WOTC have been some of the best and brilliant games in the past decade, in my opinion. Jake Solomon stood on the shoulders of giants (Julian Gollop) and reimagined the game that took the core genius of the original and transformed it into an incredible product that stands on its own.

The gameplay loop was in some ways simplified, but the depth of combat and tactical choices are still deep and as profound as ever. Sid Meier once said that a good game is an interesting series of choices, and most choices in the game are significant and warrant consideration. The attention to detail in the graphics, the UI, the audio, the music, are also top notch.

You occasionally hear people complaining that there's too much RNG, "too much left to chances", that "you constantly miss 99% shots", but the more you get familiar with the mechanics, the more you'll realize that's mostly untrue, especially past the early rookie phase.
There's plenty you can do to *guarantee* yourself a victory instead of relying on "rolling dices" and crossing fingers hoping you'll land unlikely shots.
Sure-damage abilities, crown control, instant free actions that don't end your turn, etc.
True. While RNG is going to be a factor, part of the skill of playing this game is using your choices to mitigate the potential negative outcomes of that RNG as much as possible. The gameplay loop is as much a puzzle game as it is turn based tactical and strategy. How this game manages to take so many themes of different genres and mix them in a mutually synergistic and complementary way is outstanding.

This game and the Civilization series is why Firaxis is on my list as one of the best developers in the world. They still got what it takes to create an engaging experience that is both accessible and deep.
 
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Blond

Banned
I couldn’t get into it because the performance was just so janky. Have they fixed it at all?
 

Sentenza

Member
I couldn’t get into it because the performance was just so janky. Have they fixed it at all?

Wouldn't know, I play it on PC, where it was never an issue for me.

Since we are on it, I'd be curious to learn from someone here if the notoriously poor console ports can run somewhat better on the newer platforms.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
What would you say: do you think it's because they are exceptionally lucky individual and every dice roll they make is blessed by a shiny star?
Of course not. It's because they understand the game's logic well enough to be able to
1) predict outcomes
2) exploit enemies' weaknesses to dispatch them
3) know what targets to prioritize
4) have contingent strategies as a safety net.
THAT'S XCOM BABY 100% GUARANTEED BABY!



I absolutely loved doing stupid shit like this it brings me life.
 

Sentenza

Member
I'm not really sure when it happened, but apparently I had already watched and liked your video in the past. :pie_thinking:

And yes, I love planning and executing that sort of shit.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I absolutely love this franchise but I suck at the game. I always reach that point where the enemy is just so much stronger than me, it seems like, the next day. I'm going along, naming my soldiers after celebrities and porn stars, wrecking their alien ass....then bam...next level they seem to have developed the "kick my ass" technology and all my experienced soldiers are dead. But I keep going back, and losing.
Try it on an easier difficulty?
 

zombrex

Member
It's a great game but i really hate how they jumped the shark with the enemies and lore.
Would have much preferred if they stayed more within the realm of grey aliens, men in black, UFOs and so on rather than snake people, floating gods and weird star trek/Warcraft esque races of aliens.
 

Sentenza

Member
You would think I'd do that but I'm a dumb ass mental patient that refuses to play on anything easier than the standard difficulty. I feel like I should be able to learn and adapt, but I can't. I refuse to win on easy. I'm nuts.
My advice would be: try to give a look to one of the countless "Let's play" of people playing this game on Legendary Ironman on Youtube.
After a while you'll start to learn the strategies and tricks these people apply on most of their moves.

Examples:


ChristopherOdd





Marbozir





TapCat





They aren't "phenomenal players" by any stretch (If anything watching ChristopherOdd at times had me almost raging for some of his questionable decisions) but they are competent enough to carry through entire campaigns reliably.
Or, if you don't enjoy watching people play/don't have the time to invest on it, there's the shorter option which is looking explicitly for Youtube tutorials giving tips.

Tapcat had several like this one:


 
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Sentenza

Member
It's a great game but i really hate how they jumped the shark with the enemies and lore.
Would have much preferred if they stayed more within the realm of grey aliens, men in black, UFOs and so on rather than snake people, floating gods and weird star trek/Warcraft esque races of aliens.
I'll have to be honest, I was in this camp at first, both when XOCM 2 launched and when I saw WOtC trailer for the first time, but then I came to terms with the fact that I don't *really* give a shit about the "lore" of an XCOM game as long as the result is mechanically more interesting...
Which incidentally it happens to be with War of the Chosen.
 

Shubh_C63

Member
The Arkham combat and Xcom tile turn gameplay, don't know just how many games exists today because of inspiration from their gameplay mechanics.
 

CitizenZ

Banned
Sounds like how i felt about EU but after so much time, stress, and love with that game I never have had a moment to even try or care about the next one no matter how great it may be. But that's how i am with a majority of franchises once i have played one or two, Im good.
 
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Sentenza

Member
Sounds like how i felt about EU but after so much time, stress, and love with that game I never have had a moment to even try or care about the next one no matter how great it may be. But that's how i am with a majority of franchises once i have played one or two, Im good.
Sounds like a strange self imposed rule to live by, especially when the “one” and “two” in a series are actually so different.
 

luffie

Member
Xcom2 Wotc is still the gold standard in tirn based squad game. I don't have a preference for turn based squad game, but hearing quite a bit of praises for it, I decided to give it a try and damn it was amazing.

I haven't tried as many times as OP, but I did played twice, with the 2nd play in commander mode, and managed to net 23 flawless missions, so yeah, there's RNG, but it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. You xan always strategize to accommodate for mistakes and missed shots.

One thing Xcom2 hopefully can improve in future sequel imo is it's turn base format.

While generally good, i think the flaw of one side move first (your squad) before enemies, is laid bare when you fight bosses. With numbers, you don't feel it as much, but with bosses, it feels like a gangbang on them. With the exception of the Chosen's 1st appearance (especially assassin), they never managed to land a single hit on my squad and gets obliterated too easily.

Meanwhile, I've played another decent (much smaller budget) turn based that is Othercide, and I like how they manage turn based initiative, which is even better than Chimera squad. Because every tirn is individual, bosses in Othercide feels threatening, and you can't just gangbang before they get their turn.

Still Xcom2 is still currently the best in the genre, really wish for Xcom 3 anytime.
 

JayK47

Member
Saw this for $5 and thought, now or never. So I passed on it. I loved Xcom: Enemy Unknown. Played through it 3 times and loved it. Then I picked up the DLC Enemy Within. It totally ruined the balance and flow of the main game. It went from one of my favorite games to one of my most hated games. I have not touched it since and I have turned my back on the series. Maybe if the game is ever free I may try it. I just do not trust Firaxis with the series after what they did with the DLC. And I get the impression that Xcom 2 takes after the original with the DLC. So if I hated the DLC, I will likely hate Xcom 2.
 

Sentenza

Member
Saw this for $5 and thought, now or never. So I passed on it. I loved Xcom: Enemy Unknown. Played through it 3 times and loved it. Then I picked up the DLC Enemy Within. It totally ruined the balance and flow of the main game. It went from one of my favorite games to one of my most hated games. I have not touched it since and I have turned my back on the series. Maybe if the game is ever free I may try it. I just do not trust Firaxis with the series after what they did with the DLC. And I get the impression that Xcom 2 takes after the original with the DLC. So if I hated the DLC, I will likely hate Xcom 2.
Well, you may very well be the first person I’ve ever heard who hated Enemy Within compared to vanilla XCOM 1, so yeah , chances are you may hate even more awesome stuff in the far better sequel.
 
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Hudo

Member
I agree. XCOM 2 is one of the best turn-based strategy games ever made. The only thing I really want is for XCOM 3 to be a remake of Terror from the Deep because I do like the Cthlulhu-style under water setting more than space aliens.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Saw this for $5 and thought, now or never. So I passed on it. I loved Xcom: Enemy Unknown. Played through it 3 times and loved it. Then I picked up the DLC Enemy Within. It totally ruined the balance and flow of the main game. It went from one of my favorite games to one of my most hated games. I have not touched it since and I have turned my back on the series. Maybe if the game is ever free I may try it. I just do not trust Firaxis with the series after what they did with the DLC. And I get the impression that Xcom 2 takes after the original with the DLC. So if I hated the DLC, I will likely hate Xcom 2.
I'm not sure what specifically made you hate it, but you're missing out.
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
How is the performance on Switch or iPad (got the Pro from 2017)? I only finished the base XCOM2 on PC, then I read about console version being terrible so I didn’t bother with WotC.
 

Sentenza

Member
Wouldn’t know, really. The console performances have never been any of my concern to begin with.

Maybe someone who played one of these versions will chime in to comment on that.
 
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