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God of War Ragnarok Writer Champions Angrboda as Part of "Our own spin" on Norse mythology
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Drama
Agreed, not so much the bolded though, probably cause I'm not a big fun of that word.
No.
I wish people would get this straight. First of all, all of the content present in the Prose Edda was composed in Christian times. Sturluson was a Christian who tried to compile what he thought he knew of Pagan myth and maybe even added some things here and there that was never Pagan to begin with. And even in the cases he might have adequately represented Pagan thought of the late syncretistic period, this thought cannot just be taken as Pagan "canon" at all - we see this for example with the idea of Valholl, which seems to be heavily inspired by Christianity and only present in the sources in the late Viking age. Before that, Germanic tribes didn't believe in any kind of concept that remotely resembles a "Hall of the slain" or something.
The Poetic Edda, on the other hand, is a different story. But even here, the author(s?) are all Christians, and we can't simply tell what content is authenticly Pagan and which isn't. We can't even properly assess the age of the source material in most cases for crying out loud.
So no, the Eddas are NOT an authentic representation of pre-Christian Germanic paganism. What is, on the other hand, are different types of sources like Runestones and other depictions of mythological content on archeological findings (Bracteats, for example).
And while I'm at it:
The idea of a distinguished "Norse" mythology is bullshit. There's only Germanic mythology, which the Norse form of paganism was/is a part of. Gods and their worship vary from region to region, even within subregions of subregions within single countries like Norway. The cult itself is Germanic in nature, not particularily "Norse". To speak of "Norse" mythology excludes the Dutch, the Germans and the English who believed in the exact same Gods, customs and traditions. "Norse" mythology as a concept is a product of Scandinavian nationalism, not more.
All religions and mythologies inspire and change each other. Even though greek and roman are essentially the same, they are also different. Norse and teutonic are the same, but also different. Calling it nationalism is an overly simplistic view on natural changes occuring when things spread, take root, and develop on its own.
I mean, another name for Jupiter was Jove. Where have we heard that name before? Also, it's not like germanic religions grew up isolated from others, there are many others. Whenever it entered a new area, it'd interact with other's, and change. Just the way christianity changed when interacting with paganism, adding the christmas tree and so on.
There would be many many real minorities, but instead they choose "popular woke black character", when blacks arent even minority anymore. On global scale even whites are smaller group than blacks.
Why dont make her australian aboriginal, native american, ezkimo, estonian, north korean, vietnamese, finnish, latino etc etc.? She could even be some person with down syndrome, to make it really different.
Because the obvious choise to forced woke diversity is to choose black character, as in American culture (from outside view) it seems to always be that weird black vs. white thing, and all real minorities are forgotten. So to non-american it can feel way too forced and obvious pushing of some agenda.
To me, how the character looks is bigger thing. That she looks like some modern instagram girl just added to the game freshly after a shower. She just doesnt look like she fits in the world, partly because of her race but mostly how she looks too clean and modern. Which of course could be part of the woke thing, to make the only black character somehow pop out even more as pure and clean.
Good example were resident evil 5, game that happens on Africa and have/had african enemies(zombie kind) -> killing black enemies is racist!!!
Meanwhile there have been countless games with white enemies and more are massacred than anybody can count.
Then people say things like "but they are nazis! nazis are bad!" like they have no idea how bad people have and are living in Africa, some warlords whom massacre villages after villages full of civilians. Or blacks burning white farmers alive, raping and murdering. Millions have been killed by whites, blacks, russians, arabs and so on.
Yet whites are always the bad guys and others are half-saints, and cant even be enemies on their own continent.
It is just wrong because same rules arent applied to all groups. Like the news from that black racing driver whom pays some gala tickets to poor black artists, praising him.
If white racers would pay gala tickets to only white poor artists -> it would be racism now.
Technically black giving money only to blacks, choosing quantity of people by race, hiring people because of their race etc. is also racism, yet it isnt because weird political twist of logic.
In the end devs can do whatever they want, just dont think that all gamers are too stupid to see when they do these "this is tailored for modern audience" things. Just admit that they did it because of they want to push diversity over lore and it would not feel so biased.
And the argument of "bb-but there isnt real evidence of the race of the said god in history, so she could be black!" is just faulty, as bad as saying "so this African lore of god XYZ doesnt say what colour her skin were, so she must be white!"
even 20-30 years ago nordics had almost zero non-whites and still smaller towns are 99.99% white, so chance that some ancient character would have been seen anything else as white is just tiny.
Why dont make her australian aboriginal, native american, ezkimo, estonian, north korean, vietnamese, finnish, latino etc etc.? She could even be some person with down syndrome, to make it really different.
Because the obvious choise to forced woke diversity is to choose black character, as in American culture (from outside view) it seems to always be that weird black vs. white thing, and all real minorities are forgotten. So to non-american it can feel way too forced and obvious pushing of some agenda.
To me, how the character looks is bigger thing. That she looks like some modern instagram girl just added to the game freshly after a shower. She just doesnt look like she fits in the world, partly because of her race but mostly how she looks too clean and modern. Which of course could be part of the woke thing, to make the only black character somehow pop out even more as pure and clean.
Good example were resident evil 5, game that happens on Africa and have/had african enemies(zombie kind) -> killing black enemies is racist!!!
Meanwhile there have been countless games with white enemies and more are massacred than anybody can count.
Then people say things like "but they are nazis! nazis are bad!" like they have no idea how bad people have and are living in Africa, some warlords whom massacre villages after villages full of civilians. Or blacks burning white farmers alive, raping and murdering. Millions have been killed by whites, blacks, russians, arabs and so on.
Yet whites are always the bad guys and others are half-saints, and cant even be enemies on their own continent.
It is just wrong because same rules arent applied to all groups. Like the news from that black racing driver whom pays some gala tickets to poor black artists, praising him.
If white racers would pay gala tickets to only white poor artists -> it would be racism now.
Technically black giving money only to blacks, choosing quantity of people by race, hiring people because of their race etc. is also racism, yet it isnt because weird political twist of logic.
In the end devs can do whatever they want, just dont think that all gamers are too stupid to see when they do these "this is tailored for modern audience" things. Just admit that they did it because of they want to push diversity over lore and it would not feel so biased.
And the argument of "bb-but there isnt real evidence of the race of the said god in history, so she could be black!" is just faulty, as bad as saying "so this African lore of god XYZ doesnt say what colour her skin were, so she must be white!"
even 20-30 years ago nordics had almost zero non-whites and still smaller towns are 99.99% white, so chance that some ancient character would have been seen anything else as white is just tiny.
Fugitive Sex
Member
The amount of cognitive dissonance in this thread is unsurprising, as are the attempts to dismiss any thought of cultural heritage, etc., all in the name of "it’s just a game", amongst other things.
For those of you obsessed with Kratos being a black man, for some reason, note why the Swedish poster was taken aback by this. Not only is it outlandish, it’s because Kratos merely look like a Greek to him. A lot of people (Americans) seem to think that all Europeans are the same. Please note that this isn’t the case.
To the people who keep invoking portrayals of Jesus, do you actually know what you’re talking about? Jesus has historically been portrayed by the culture that is attempting to depict him. Please try and grasp what it is you’re talking about before you write and expose your ignorance.
I have seen some other statements that, whilst less alarming, again show ignorance: Kratos was not made up for these games, he is a figure from Greek culture, being the personification of strength, and mentioned in the Theogony, around the 8th century BC.
With regard to “the Middle Easterners”, a lot of them happen to be “white”, but perhaps not white enough for the crowds here. I have met many a ginger-haired fellow from the Levant, and I believe one of your more recently famous American footballers is a blonde of Lebanese extraction.
I know that this place isn't exactly a haven for intellectuals or anything remotely sophisticated, but please try to have an idea of what you're talking about.
For those of you obsessed with Kratos being a black man, for some reason, note why the Swedish poster was taken aback by this. Not only is it outlandish, it’s because Kratos merely look like a Greek to him. A lot of people (Americans) seem to think that all Europeans are the same. Please note that this isn’t the case.
To the people who keep invoking portrayals of Jesus, do you actually know what you’re talking about? Jesus has historically been portrayed by the culture that is attempting to depict him. Please try and grasp what it is you’re talking about before you write and expose your ignorance.
I have seen some other statements that, whilst less alarming, again show ignorance: Kratos was not made up for these games, he is a figure from Greek culture, being the personification of strength, and mentioned in the Theogony, around the 8th century BC.
With regard to “the Middle Easterners”, a lot of them happen to be “white”, but perhaps not white enough for the crowds here. I have met many a ginger-haired fellow from the Levant, and I believe one of your more recently famous American footballers is a blonde of Lebanese extraction.
I know that this place isn't exactly a haven for intellectuals or anything remotely sophisticated, but please try to have an idea of what you're talking about.
Azurro
Banned
Marvel, one of the Thor movies, with the fabled Chinese Asgardians, as well as the always known black Asgardians and who knows what else except for actual Nordic people.
balls of snow
Member
Thats one way to get over the white man kills indigenous gods when they get to mayan and egypt pantheon. De-ash his ass Santa Monica.it's a fantasy game, gods don't exist, kratos doesn't exist, just play the game and have fun.
Just to remember u all Kratos is not 'white" he is covered in ashes.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Especially given the current situation in Nordic countries, amirite? Such accuracy is must.
/joke at around 50%
Ass of Can Whooping
Banned
Yup the cannibals near the very start. It's the only time you see them though
We learned hel-walkers were humans from that encounter
HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
You misunderstood what I was trying to say. Maybe because English is not my first language. I was not referencing the natural evolution polytheistic systems go through. By talking about Scandinavian nationalism, I was referring to a part of the history of science, mainly from the 19th century, when (mostly) German and Danish scolars were discussing the question wether it makes sense to assume the existence of a proto-Nordic language instead of just placing the Scandinavian languages in the same root as the other Germanic languages. This argument has long been laid aside afaik. Yet among some Scandinavians, there's still an inherent desire to put Scandinavian Germanic heritage on a pedestal. It emerges from nationalist sentiments, to claim all things Scandinavian as something "special" in comparison to other Germanic cultures/peoples. It's only a small minority of course, and most of them died 100 years ago. However, terms like "Norse" mythology live on to this day, although not making a lot of sense from a broader perspective. Terms like "English mythology" and "German mythology" are completely useless as well, since what they really refer to a fractions of a whole Germanic mythology. It would be like talking about "south peloponnese mythology" while claiming it to be some kind of monistic entity.
Lupin25
Member
Games represented in Africa already exist. When did you see the outpour?
Lol Whitewashing is racist (racial bias at its peak) and it could be argued as such just as much as the opposite end of the spectrum here… except these characters aren’t real or maintain a true, canonized depiction.
Whitewashing is no better than “blackwashing”. Let’s just leave it at that
balls of snow
Member
It's an open secret that execs of gaming companies, the one making the most money hate their audience. Necessary evil for the amount of money being pumped into AAA.
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Sid Of Bee
Member
That's the thing.... If it were set in a mythological Egyptian setting you would never see a black god turned into a white person for sake of diversity. A game set in Chinese mythology would most likely never have someone represented by a black woman. I'm all for diversity, but it only ever applies when the characters are of white male origin. I'm also more for authenticity. I don't mind this change in GOW at all though, but I just wish that diversity was something that was practiced more fairly and uniformly.
Lupin25
Member
Firstly, this isn’t a generalized political topic, there’s a reason the section of the website was eradicated, so why wouldn’t they infer it as “just a game”?
Secondly, and lastly, God of War would already be a distasteful depiction of Norse mythology, if it was in the slightest, attempting to be faithful to its originality. Including a black girl doesn’t make the story any less accurate.
Don’t blame us for not caring about accurate “historical” representation, blame SSM.
Spaceman292
Banned
So all characters should default be white unless there's an explicit reason?
Javthusiast
Banned
This is one of those things where I wouldn’t have thought twice about it if no one brought it up. Does it matter? There are blue dwarves, monsters, fairies, elves…. Omg! An attractive black woman!!? That’s not reality!!
It's fucking this.
After agreeing with most things on the anti sjw side it is annoying when you then have to deal with pathetic arguments against black people in God of War or the stupid Last of Us 2 discourse.
Just shows that both sides are often dumb and can't see any middleground anymore, just extreme opinions into one direction.
Horatius
Member
yeah the the nordics in their frozen hellscapes tended to not have much melanin idk if you knew
people are just sick of obvious propaganda
it doesn't matter if it's propaganda for a good thing, or something we all agree with, or something innocuous, vast tracts of society are too media savvy not to notice it immediately and hate it on principle, regardless of what is being propagandised for
the fact that anyone earnestly enjoys and supports it is the weird and scary thing, bunch of weirdos
Azurro
Banned
This is a reductionist and dumb take, it was a longer way of saying "if you don't like it you are racist".
What people, or at least I am in any case, is a bit annoyed about is the lack of respect for the myths of any group that can be characterized as white. It's racist tokenism.
You know that if there was a game where Kratos would go on to fight Indian gods, the devs would never stick a Chinese/black person in there to play one of their myths.
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Topher
Gold Member
DonJorginho
Banned
Slicker than your average
Banned
Get help
JoeBudden
Member
Knock it off. You don't truly care, this is pure jealousy. That's why you're defaulting to, "they wouldn't do this for other religions".
If you truly gave a fuck about the "lack of respect for the myths of any group", it would've started several games ago where a demi God was going around killing Greek Gods, and now Norse God's. Or even with how all of these God's are being depicted as evil. When you ignore all this, and have a problem when a black character gets introduced, that speaks volumes.
So cut out the fake concern. This isn't doing any harm.
You think the gods were good? Oh lord, you have some reading to do. If anything, they were self abdorbed bastards.
Zeus was a serial rapist with a purpose. Hera started a war just cause someone didn't think she was the prettiest. The norse gods, well, there's a reason people sacrificed both animals and people to them.
Good, indeed, lol.
Topher
Gold Member
Indian gods? You mean Hinduism? You really think messing around with a religion currently practiced by over a billion people is the same as taking liberties with Norse mythology?
Azurro
Banned
Who cares? It's all mythology anyway, and it was just an example. And yeah, it'd be the same, if you put a Latino guy playing as some Indian god/demi-god/whatever, people would go "wtf", but strangely enough, when it's about Nordic gods, people are pretty ok with it.
JoeBudden
, that's kind of funny, isn't it? To shit on myths that belong to a group that can be described as white is totally ok, but not if it's some Chinese myth or of it's some Indian myth or whatever. It even sounds racist to me.In short, it's not "fake concern", it's a matter that if I want to see a story/game about Nordic myths, why the fuck do I see people that don't belong there? That's a lack of respect for the source material.
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JoeBudden
Member
Sure, but that was only one point I made. Going around killing these gods in a video game isn't exactly respecting the mythology.
Why not? As long as the gods are portrayed fairly accurately I don't care what stories you tell
JoeBudden
Member
Who cares? It's all mythology anyway, and it was just an example. And yeah, it'd be the same, if you put a Latino guy playing as some Indian god/demi-god/whatever, people would go "wtf", but strangely enough, when it's about Nordic gods, people are pretty ok with it.
In short, it's not "fake concern", it's a matter that if I want to see a story/game about Nordic myths, why the fuck do I see people that don't belong there? That's a lack of respect for the source material.
what do you think this post says about you when you consider an interpretation of a giant as a black girl, as "shitting on myths".
We literally ripped off Helios head in a close up shot in God of War 3...
Topher
Gold Member
Who cares? It's all mythology anyway, and it was just an example. And yeah, it'd be the same, if you put a Latino guy playing as some Indian god/demi-god/whatever, people would go "wtf", but strangely enough, when it's about Nordic gods, people are pretty ok with it.
Comparing this to changing up a current religion is just a bad example, period You may consider it myth but Hindus don't. So yeah.....game developers probably didn't go into this thinking they would upset actual Odin/Thor/etc worshippers. In your "example" that's exactly what they would do.
What? If you want to talk about "people that don't belong there" then why do you care about the black girl. What about Kratos?
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JoeBudden
Member
lmao well that sounds awfully convenient.
JoeBudden
Member
Thats what i'm saying bro.
There's a whole demi god from a whole other mythology, that we still didn't get a proper explanation for how he showed up here, and people are more upset over the black girl being a giant. These people are completely fine with dwarves being different complexions, but not humans lmao. There's so much inconsistency in the outrage lol.
Azurro
Banned
This fake morality is really stupid when you don't have an argument. Having violence in a violent mythology is not out of place. If you are not going to respect the characters then might as well start a game where you play as MLK, played by Liam Neeson.
He goes back in time to stop Hernan Cortez, played by Kanye West from conspiring against Moctezuma, played by Lionel Messi by reciting "I have a dream".
You'd say that's offensive, and I'd tell you that it's just a fantasy game.
JoeBudden
Member
its funny how you claim I have no argument but you need to create extreme examples to have a foot to stand on here lmao.
again, what do you think this post says about you if you think making a black girl a giant, is the same as getting Liam Neeson to play MLK in a game?
Azurro
Banned
It's a fantasy bro, why are you offended? I'm offended that you are offended, what a bigot. Stopping people from playing whoever they identify as.
How?
JoeBudden
Member
Senhua
Member
Before 2017? no it's notThis is one of those things where I wouldn’t have thought twice about it if no one brought it up. Does it matter? There are blue dwarves, monsters, fairies, elves…. Omg! An attractive black woman!!? That’s not reality!!
After? well after that "group" always signaling their wokeness and banned everything not inline with their "view" I had to say 60:40 maybe?
As long as there are some vocal minority in games industry do this and game dev & journalist cater to that, it's will always be this with everything "black" these days.
Cut the source of infection and "maybe" we will go back to the times when we only care about the gameplay and char style no matter what color they with.
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Azurro
Banned
Here's the thing. I put MLK into a incredibly fantastical context, it's obviously not a biography, it's pure fantasy, so let's have Liam Neeson play him. This summer there was a movie where Dev Patel was clowning around as a medieval English knight.
Why is the first one not ok and the first one is? Both fantasy settings and both interpretations with basis in reality. Why we accept some stupidity and not others?
Don't bother answering, it's because dumb activists ignorantly see fucking up myths, institutions and ideas that they see as white in origin as social progress. It's racism against white people, just with a bunch of steps in between.
LMJ
Member
Let's be dead honest, this is clearly the usual United States rhetoric of so-called racial sensitivity which ironically only sees one to three races tops LOL
That having been said this is also clearly an adaptation...(again Loki being the son of a Greek god and all)
So let them take all the Liberties they want with it as this is their version of the story and if they want to go in this direction fantastic... they'll do one of two things...
#1 push people too far and turn them away (Starwars)
#2 people will adapt and accept it the same they did with the whole God of War literally killing all of Greek mythology and somehow escaping the spirit word and entering the Norse one LOL
That having been said this is also clearly an adaptation...(again Loki being the son of a Greek god and all)
So let them take all the Liberties they want with it as this is their version of the story and if they want to go in this direction fantastic... they'll do one of two things...
#1 push people too far and turn them away (Starwars)
#2 people will adapt and accept it the same they did with the whole God of War literally killing all of Greek mythology and somehow escaping the spirit word and entering the Norse one
LOL
Boss Mog
Member
It's funny because they were all about Thor being just like the real Norse mythology and not like a hunky Australian but then they don't have any issue making Angrboda completely different. This is of course 100% political and agenda shoving. Imagine a game in ancient Africa with African gods and the devs decided to make one of them white for "their vision", I'm sure it'd go over real well.
GymWolf
Member
Ok i'm gonna ask what people wanted to ask for a long time, if kratos is white because of the ash, does that means that he never takes a bath\clean himself?!
How hard can it be to get rid of some ash?! or is it some type of magic ash?
Such a good spot, the actor choice was chef kiss, one of the few good things about ascension.
How hard can it be to get rid of some ash?! or is it some type of magic ash?
Such a good spot, the actor choice was chef kiss, one of the few good things about ascension.
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Silent Viper
Banned
Why not add Brown people? Why not Brown Tyr? Asians always left out lol
JoeBudden
Member
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