They are statistics and people are interpreting them. Is there a definitive answer to the statistical performance of any commercial game with vsync and triple buffering disabled on PC in a given situation? Why should there be a definitive answer here? Does the stutter on Elden Ring impact all PCs and all PCs of the similar parts identically?
Wow two of three post here and just to engage a member war against me. You should be proud of yourself brave warrior. Because I really don't understand what the argument quoted by you it has to do to what I'm saying about the DF partiality.
If others saying his results are off are genuinely being fair like-for-like and haven't forgotten to mention their GPU is watercooled and actually a 3070ti, not a 2070, then going by the pictures by winjer I would say - without a reference value - the cooling on nxgamer's 2070 is performing badly by comparison, as winjers is 15degs less,
The problem is that before we know the exact settings a user is using for the City Project (and there are an insane amount), their MB chip set with settings, memory with settings etc the conclusions that people draw in this thread are simply wrong. Just saying "I have CPU X and GPU Y and i got Z FPS" is not sufficient information to draw pretty much any conclusions when making comparisons. When people are making RAM comparisons for example, you need to specify what setting you are using with regard to preloaded City Scape tiles in RAM (you can go all the way from one tile to all of them. The settings list is long...
It's not just his 2070 which is paired up with a problematic 2700x, it's the 6800 + 3600 benchmarks that are totally off.
Actually yes. Unless you ran it through proton/linux where valve took it upon themselves to fix the game. Seems the problem was poor resource management on the part of From.
It's usually the green rats with no knowledge that get upset anytime "SSD" or "I/O" is brought up. You'll usually see them refer to it as "magical I/O" and other similar words when they get upset.
Its a good way to gain some performance and reduce CPU bottlenecks, and in the case of the ps5 save up some GPU/CPU processing power for future proofing. It can also improve loading times 2 seconds or so from what we've been show so far with the Forspoken tech trailer.
NXGamer
's numbers don't jive with the numbers posted by several users with comparable rigs. His PC numbers are way too low. So sure, several people are trying to understand what happened.
This shouldn't be so hard to understand.
There doesn't have to be more to it than that. Not everyone has an axe to grind.
avin
It should be, yet thats not how the people singing praises to the magical I/O frame it, which is the annoying part. Mere SSD requirements, even the newer ones, are basically a non-issue for PC and has been that way for years.
I think the PS5 IO is the real deal, but will devs use it? Doubtful to say the least. The Matrix demo uses 300 MBps. PS5's 5.5 GBps is overkill for UE5, but this is where their first party studios can come in and design the game around the PS5 IO. It might not push visuals better than PC, but it has the potential to redefine game design for sure.
Its the real deal, but not the real deal you think it is.
They will not design the game around the ps5 i/o. They'll design the game around SSDs in general, along with everyone else.
SSDs may in some ways (though what they're actually doing is alleviate a bottleneck that was growing through the years of improving processing power). The ps5 i/o in particular is not relevant here.
And thats the issue i was talking withThe Superman gif i posted above shows how fast Superman can fly around the matrix city. It is really fast. Especially when you do the initial boost, but what Cerny showed in the spiderman ssd demo is way faster.
The question is who will utilize it? Sony devs pretty much, and they are being forced to port their games to PC which could mean they might not fully utilize the PS5 IO in order to ensure they can port it. We've already seen Ratchet not even come close to maxing out the 5.5 GBps speeds of the SSD.
But if devs sit down and really think about changing game design, the potential is limitless. We can finally have Christopher Nolan style scenes where you have dreams within dreams following multiple characters at once in different places. We can have insanely fast traversal like what you see above. A true flash game or a true superman game with no limitations could be possible. Or devs can go all Doctor Strange on us and breakdown entire worlds on top of us and throw us in parallel universes at the drop of a hat.
But will they? I dont think so. Sony devs are good at combat. Great at storytelling. Exceptional at visuals, but i dont see them particularly innovative or great level designers. They will make a great traditional game, but can they innovate and shake up game design like you said? I have my doubts.
The fact that its been three years since that Spiderman gif was released and we have seen ZERO fucking games utilizing the PS5 IO just tells me that they arent going to do much with the PS5 IO. However, that doesnt mean the PS5 IO/SSD isnt magical or game changing.
MasterCornholio
above. You're mixing up possible improvements that SSDs bring to the table with the ps5 i/o in particular.
I like your optimism. But I get a feeling the ps5 design is seperate from more recent curveballs in the business decision department. Including building for last gen consoles.
Right, a few games that probably weren't initially planned for PS4 got put on it due to shortages. But seriously when Sony no longer supports PS4 (I think gow will be the last major one) then Sony studios will go full force.
The memory pipeline on the pc still needs addressing. The triple handling before assets end up in the GPU ram is an obstacle for latency and workloads. Luckily it is recognised and GPU dma and decompression is on the cards.
Probably, but the good news is PCs can just use more RAM and/or other hardware.
Rtx IO and such should be ready before cross gen ends
We have already seen the difference between titanfall and ratchet. One flips the same level with a different color palette, the other is loading an entirely different thing. It can be done today but clearly the next Gen leap of far greater and ratchet isn’t even coming close to maxing it out.Its the real deal, but not the real deal you think it is.
They will not design the game around the ps5 i/o. They'll design the game around SSDs in general, along with everyone else.
SSDs may in some ways (though what they're actually doing is alleviate a bottleneck that was growing through the years of improving processing power). The ps5 i/o in particular is not relevant here.
And thats the issue i was talking with
And the games you talk about can already be made, even on HDDs with some cutbacks maybe. All SSDs will help achieve here is improve on the quality of the assets so we could, hypothetically, have the games you described with better visuals.
Am I reading it wrong or is his 6800 drawing under 100watts (the 6800XT being +200watts) in that comparison? If both nxgamers configs have outlier numbers my bet would be on him using the same PSU and the PSU having a faulty 6 or 8 pin - assuming he has to use both an 8+6pin (at a minimum) to power either card.It's not just his 2070 which is paired up with a problematic 2700x, it's the 6800 + 3600 benchmarks that are totally off.
You can see it from the screenshots. The GPU utilization along with the GPU power draw and clockspeed is simply off. It makes no sense whatsoever for the gpu to be performing like that.
You can also see his specs for this pc, and they look fine to me. nothing really jumps out at me.
I posted the 6800 benchmark on the last page. the video didnt have the same scene comparison but this one features the 6800xt and even though the card is only 15% faster than the 6800 and its using a faster CPU, it is offering 100% more performance compared to NX gamer's 6800.
To me, the key is the GPU utilization. His GPU is being bottlenecked by something in the system. I dont know what it is, but I think he should troubleshot his system and run some benchmarks to figure it out. Right now, those results are way off due to the GPUs in his system being heavily underutilized.
If its isolated to just the Matrix demo then some troubleshooting can actually help him prove his point if he ends up determining that the reason for the bottleneck was his ram or gen 3 PCIE express or whatnot.
Just guessing but maybe (just maybe) it has something to do with his PCIe controller? E.g. Horizon was very affected by PCIe bandwidth (if I remember correctly, DF had this issue with the PC version of the game and didn't know what was wrong until the community helped to pinpoint the problem). E.g. wrong bios settings which forces a lower bandwidth/standard for the slot. Second x16 slot used which might half the useable PCIe lanes.
I haven't used afterburner for many years, so I can't remember, but does the overclocking get held in the GPU firmware - say if moving between PCs without reinstalling afterburner? If it does, it is very possible he previously tested for matching power draw to the consoles - capping the power draw - and forgot to reset the cards back to defaults and is thinking they are running full tilt, although that doesn't match up with his 2070 running hotter with less power draw, and less work being done (via FPS count).
Uh Spiderman looks great, but is not a valid comparison.I think the PS5 IO is the real deal, but will devs use it? Doubtful to say the least. The Matrix demo uses 300 MBps. PS5's 5.5 GBps is overkill for UE5, but this is where their first party studios can come in and design the game around the PS5 IO. It might not push visuals better than PC, but it has the potential to redefine game design for sure.
The Superman gif i posted above shows how fast Superman can fly around the matrix city. It is really fast. Especially when you do the initial boost, but what Cerny showed in the spiderman ssd demo is way faster.
The question is who will utilize it? Sony devs pretty much, and they are being forced to port their games to PC which could mean they might not fully utilize the PS5 IO in order to ensure they can port it. We've already seen Ratchet not even come close to maxing out the 5.5 GBps speeds of the SSD.
But if devs sit down and really think about changing game design, the potential is limitless. We can finally have Christopher Nolan style scenes where you have dreams within dreams following multiple characters at once in different places. We can have insanely fast traversal like what you see above. A true flash game or a true superman game with no limitations could be possible. Or devs can go all Doctor Strange on us and breakdown entire worlds on top of us and throw us in parallel universes at the drop of a hat.
But will they? I dont think so. Sony devs are good at combat. Great at storytelling. Exceptional at visuals, but i dont see them particularly innovative or great level designers. They will make a great traditional game, but can they innovate and shake up game design like you said? I have my doubts.
The fact that its been three years since that Spiderman gif was released and we have seen ZERO fucking games utilizing the PS5 IO for fast traversal just tells me that they arent going to do much with the PS5 IO. However, that doesnt mean the PS5 IO/SSD isnt magical or game changing.
Spider-Man is likely a lot more asset heavy based on the Ue5 stats, so it stresses I/o more so. But indeed, the engines are completely different, last gen - next gen sort of thing.
Ratchet wasn't maxing it out because it wasn't even making anything that strictly required SSDs. All of its portals were either limited to rail roaded segments (where you often couldn't even look behind you), portals that teleported you through short distances, or portals at specific locations that teleported between 2 different areas, all of which we've already seen before (not talking about titanfall).
No we were not. Even if no one thought about optimizing the i/o pipeline, be it on ps5 or other platforms, we'd still get all the 'revolutions' you're talking about by merely adopting SSDs. Thats the point, its the "magical i/o" because people are attributing far more credit to it than it actually has, most of the credit actually belonging just to SSDs in general.
The developers openly said how it works in R&C (wipe/refill) and that it absolutely requires an SSD.....Any other method would have had to work with cutbacks in transition times or graphical quality.
There are 2 different portals in R&C, the portals that teleported you through short distances, or 2 different areas as you put it are just one type, the other type takes you to a completely new map with all different assets exchanged into ram on demand - not a piece of the current map pre-loaded into ram and hidden somewhere.
I mean in this sense, it's definitely more like limitation of the cache system on CPU + RAM, because of that master slave CPU type of SW architecture. The thing which bothers me, is that the I/O complex is (I really want to stress this) revolutionary, in both cases (more so on PS5, because of deeper integration), but it does not really substitute truly parallel programming and so on. I don't really like when people are drawing conclusions based on some PR. Like I said previously, I expected more from the EPIC in this sense. They have some good technology there, however the system which brings it all together is still architected in times of low core count CPUs. And starting with ID Tech 7, it's clear to me, what is the best way to go about it. No control CPU, shared parallel workloads in true P2P sense. Sadly this is something no HW ever helps with (well outside you know multi core CPU, possible GPU), this is just how you write your program. And yes P2P with minimal overhead is way more advance type of programming.
Both of which i addressed, something you would know if you read my comment properly. In fact, there aren't 2 types, but 3.
Exactly, you can do it without an SSD with some cutbacks and/or good memory management. It wasn't "impossible" to do before, much like it wasn't impossible to make a cinematic looking game without RTX cards.
So in that case, I’m not sure the basis of your critique.
You still haven't read any of my comments it seems.
It`s impossible to do it dynamically without either sacrificing much of the graphical quality and/or accepting much longer load times disrupting the gameplay.
Indeed. The point to it all is that from a dev perspective any and all I/o restrictions are gone, *poof*. No workarounds, no cutbacks, not special design decision around bottlenecks, no balancing acts. Dev freedom to harness relatively instant asset loading as they please.
C'mon OF COURSE. Just look at Unreal 5. We know how that's the near future for many many games and if this video doesn't prove that 30 fps is the target for console (esp when high end pc's can't hit 60) then there's no way we'll see 60 fps in unreal 5 games on console. Maybe there will be some secondary mode that doesn't have lumen or nanite that could be 60 but then the game will barely resemble the quality mode. I don't even know if it will be possible to have a performance mode without nanite on UE5.
Triggered!
Seems you haven't interpreted any of my comments then, cause i've addressed all the points you made, and i ain't repeating myself.
That guy is a total douche bag
I'm not triggered just think whoever typed that doesn't understand the tech