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[oldergamer]

Well, if any studios are going to get a chance to do a different genre, you got to give a chance at some point. If you guys want to see changes to genre check this out:

Naughty Dog --> Populous looking game called Rings of Power, fighting game Way of the Warrior, platformers Crash and Dax, Crash cart game, action/adventure games UC and LOU

I remember way of the warrior. Bad mortal kombat ripoff. Best part was the music

 

[Codes 208]

Wouldnt be the first time a fable game needed to be scaled down.

 

[Wandering Leopard]

Assuming it's true, it wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't announced it so early.

These studios/publishers really need to stop revealing games so early (when all they have is a CGI trailer).

 

[Salty Popsicle]

Scaled down from what exactly? None of us have any basis of comparison to point to because no gameplay has been shown. It seems any idiot with a podcast get put on pedestals if they have negative things to say about Microsoft or Sony and their projects even if no evidence is produced.

 

[Kvally]

In theory, you're right.

But in practice, not every development studio has the capability nor adaptability to be able to develop vastly different types of games.

ND was making 3D platformers at a time when games were VASTLY less complex than they are today. And pretty much everything they've made since the first Uncharted has been similar in scope and design, i.e. 3rd person action shooter.

Studios like GG and Insomniac are the exception, being able to go from making shooters to sprawling open-world RPG games in GG's case, and from 3D action platformers to open-world superhero games in the case of Insomniac.

For every positive example, however, there are numerous examples of dev studios trying something new and biting off more than they can chew: e.g. CD Project Red with Cyberpunk.

Playground games have neither the history nor experience in making anything other than driving games, which as a genre of games is far less complex in terms of design than action games like shooters, open-world action games and exponentially less so than open-world or even semi-open-world WRPGs.

In the latter case, everything from world design, to environmental design, from quest design and the capability of the game logic systems to handle the multiplicative complexity of player agency, makes these games way more complex to design, built, test and optimise than literally any other type of game.

You have a whole class of WRPGs, i.e. Eurojank, of mostly central European devs who have been making these types of games for decades, who still aren't able to achieve top-tier status in all aspects of WRPGs design. Heck, even the biggest name devs in the industry for WRPGs, like Bethesda, Bioware etc completely drop the ball from time to time: e.g. Fallout 76, ME:A.

So expecting magic by a studio that has only ever made relatively simple driving games was always going to be little more than a pipe dream. As cynical as it sounds, there are very good commercial reasons why major AAA publishers generally tend to want to keep genre game developers making games within that same genre (and often even IP). The commercial risks otherwise are often too high, such that only really the most talented devs given sufficient timescales can manage to achieve it.

The difference here is that this is a SECOND studio within Playground Games, and was hired and built around quite a few RPG developers starting 5 years ago. This isn't the Horizon team. So if anything, it's RPG developers trying to wrap their head around the Forzatech engine.

"That's another goal of Project 2, to allow us to do that. We're going to need to hire some very talented people with experience that we don't have."

 

[elliot5]

The difference here is that this is a SECOND studio within Playground Games, and was hired and built around quite a few RPG developers starting 5 years ago. This isn't the Horizon team. So if anything, it's RPG developers trying to wrap their head around the Forzatech engine.

"That's another goal of Project 2, to allow us to do that. We're going to need to hire some very talented people with experience that we don't have."

Some Forza people migrated onto Fable it's not like it's totally green people

 

[Edgelord79]

While this is a rumour, I could see this being true. Playground doesn’t have experience with a large scale RPG like this so it’s reasonable.

If it is indeed scaled down, this will hurt.

 

[Kvally]

Some Forza people migrated onto Fable it's not like it's totally green people

Indeed. But it's not like team 2 is a racing team. So they have Forzatech experienced people working with RPG experience people. Some people think the Horizon team is all of a sudden making an RPG. This has been in the works for 5-6 years building a team specifically for Fable and sourcing experienced RPG developers.

 

[Decontamination Silo]

But OG Fable was scaled down Fable. Scale it down any more and you've got a mobile game. Big yikes. I don't see any upside to trying to revive this IP. Even the old Fable games were shell's of what was promised. It's cursed. The IP just isn't interesting. The energy put toward this and Perfect Dark should absolutely be going to new IP. Reviving both just feels so damn forced.

 

[Topher]

Scaled down from what exactly? None of us have any basis of comparison to point to because no gameplay has been shown. It seems any idiot with a podcast get put on pedestals if they have negative things to say about Microsoft or Sony and their projects even if no evidence is produced.

Exactly. Scaled down from what? Released later than expected? What was expected? These are questions no one has the answer to outside of Microsoft so it is incredibly easy to throw out bullshit claims that are never going to be proven wrong or right.

 

[johnjohn]

While this is a rumour, I could see this being true. Playground doesn’t have experience with a large scale RPG like this so it’s reasonable.

If it is indeed scaled down, this will hurt.

Hurt in what way? None of us would know what it's scaled down from.

 

[Kvally]

Nobody knows who this guy is, but assume he is spot on because he read it on his What's App?

 

[DarkMage619]

I don't care about console warrior narratives from last year. And I've already acknowledged that I am talking about what we know right now. Do you really think MS is going to deliver enough games this year to repeat as Publisher of the Year? That was the level of consistency being described that I replied to.

How many times did MS get 'Publisher of the Year' before 2021? If we are talking about consistency compare MS now to MS in 2013-20. Nothing is guaranteed and MS was never really in contention for winning Publisher of the Year in the past so the 'consistency' argument is funny.

They win one time and NOW they are being laughed at for not winning every year? And this year isn't even over? Hilarious. At the end of day people had no idea what they were planning last year and did quite well. Not knowing what they are doing this year is just as meaningless, especially BEFORE their showcase.

 

[Rockondevil]

Hopefully the rumor isn't true.
Delayed I can live with since it never had a date anyway.
Scaled down on the other hand could be a bad thing, depending on what their planned scale was.

Either way I need them to knock Fable out of the park. I love the franchise and don't want it to die.

 

[Edgelord79]

Hurt in what way? None of us would know what it's scaled down from.

If it’s scaled down significantly from what the intent was or if it’s scaled down to be smaller than the previous games. Fable is an important series to a lot of people and rightly or wrongly, there is an expectation.

But you are right, we currently don’t know what is happening.

 

[PisswasserYellow]

Operated studio? Lol
They are the best racing game developer in the world bar none. Polyphony, Turn 10, Codemasters, all can't hold a flame to them.
And as for cut and paste, their games continue to get rave reviews from everyone other than Sony fanboys.

Lol, wow. I usually try to avoid posting in these console warrior threads where everyone pretends they aren't console warriors, but you obviously haven't played many racing games.

 

[Aenima]

MS should ask Lionhead Studios to make the game... oh wait...

 

[Topher]

How many times did MS get 'Publisher of the Year' before 2021? If we are talking about consistency compare MS now to MS in 2013-20. Nothing is guaranteed and MS was never really in contention for winning Publisher of the Year in the past so the 'consistency' argument is funny.

They win one time and NOW they are being laughed at for not winning every year? And this year isn't even over? Hilarious. At the end of day people had no idea what they were planning last year and did quite well. Not knowing what they are doing this year is just as meaningless, especially BEFORE their showcase.

I'm not the one that brought up POTY as evidence of "consistency". Complain to them.

 

[Captain Toad]

Playground games have neither the history nor experience in making anything other than driving games, which as a genre of games is far less complex in terms of design than action games like shooters, open-world action games and exponentially less so than open-world or even semi-open-world WRPGs.

But Forza Horizon isn't just a racing game. It's an open-world game with RPG elements, story missions, etc.

Sure the moment to moment gameplay will be vastly different, but they actually do have a basic understanding of open-world game design.

 

[sinnergy]

Great strategy for PR! When released will surpass expectations with upscalling

 

[PhaseJump]

They should buy up some Japanese studios and get some exclusive games to make the wait more tolerable.

Buy Bandai Namco Holdings, Square Enix, Sega, or Capcom. Industry wide mass hysteria from all the weeaboo xbox haters would be amazing and entertaining.

 

[Negotiator101]

Some two bit nickel and dime youtuber says something with zero evidence to back up his claims and we have this doom and gloom thread as a result Game was announced not even 2 years ago, give them time to create this brand new take on Fable. Was anyone expecting it to release soon or something?

 

[Lognor]

Take all the time you need! I'm interested in what they come up with

 

[zephiross]

Jaffe has no clue about phil spencer. Sorry dont mistake opinion for actual facts

Total stupid post. Not surprised

Not surprised because ?

 

[BusierDonkey]

"Might"

"Could"

I just love how everyone is just flinging shit at the wall hoping something sticks. When they eventually get something right they receive a promotion to full-fledged video game journalist.

 

[Magic Carpet]

I swear, Microsoft just can NOT get any good news out.
Come one little green you can do it. I'm actually pulling for you this gen. But you got to give me some rope to hold onto.

 

[DangerDiabolik]

I swear, Microsoft just can NOT get any good news out.
Come one little green you can do it. I'm actually pulling for you this gen. But you got to give me some rope to hold onto.

Well it doesn't help when people are just putting vague concern trolling nonsense out there. What is the source for this? Scaled down from what? We know nothing about the game. Every game has development challenges. Doesn't mean everything is dev hell and bad management.

Alas, good thing they have a showcase next week.

 

[lostinblue]

(...) e.g. CD Project Red with Cyberpunk.

(...) even the biggest name devs in the industry for WRPGs, like Bethesda, Bioware etc completely drop the ball from time to time: e.g. Fallout 76, ME:A.

Sorry to crop your post like this. It is a fine post and I enjoyed the points you were making.

I just wanted to point out that all these examples are games marred by chronic tech problems of some kind.

Cyberpunk - RED Engine being pushed too far without proper retooling. It's very scripted and the fact Witcher 3 worked was already a miracle.
Fallout 76 - Creation Engine being pushed too far. This engine is as script heavy as the above, hasn't been updated properly (it's graphics makeup is worse than RED) and it isn't properly multithreaded. It's basically coming apart at the seams.
Mass Effect: Andromeda - Frostbite adaptation was rough on the team, because they were doing a genre that hadn't been done before and using the engine was a requirement from EA to them.

I agree that Playground has two things stacked against them here, their prior developing experience and how different it is developing a story game against a car game, and the engine/tech regardless of how good it is - when developers specialize in a genre there are tools that they develop and keep working on that make their work easier. Naughty Dog brags that a lot of the tech that made Uncharted 2 possible is still present on their newer games like the programming bits that allowed to do the playable falling building possible, because those were turning points that still come in handy. Playground has virtually nothing aside from tech expertise and quality control to lift from Forza Horizon.

Well it doesn't help when people are just putting vague concern trolling nonsense out there. What is the source for this? Scaled down from what? We know nothing about the game. Every game has development challenges. Doesn't mean everything is dev hell and bad management.

Alas, good thing they have a showcase next week.

True.

And sometimes scope and time limitations help define the game a lot more than not having them. It can be a curse or an opportunity basically.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

In theory, you're right.

But in practice, not every development studio has the capability nor adaptability to be able to develop vastly different types of games.

ND was making 3D platformers at a time when games were VASTLY less complex than they are today.

Finally someone mentions this. Development back in the mid '90s doesn't seem like it was anything like the behemoth the AAA industry of today is. Engines were much simpler and teams were more nimble, budgets were much less too so more risks could be taken.

So while Playground Games can likely make the transition successfully, it's not really a similar situation to Naughty Dog's shifts over the years (and honestly, their games before Crash were hot garbage anyway. Well, Way of the Warrior was, it's a meme) or even Sucker Punch's shift from Sly Cooper to Infamous to Ghosts of Tsushima.

Scaled down from what exactly? None of us have any basis of comparison to point to because no gameplay has been shown. It seems any idiot with a podcast get put on pedestals if they have negative things to say about Microsoft or Sony and their projects even if no evidence is produced.

TBF Gaz is kind of an Xbox guy and mainly prefers that brand gaming-wise. He was also pretty pissed about the Starfield & RedFall delays though, and we saw how that caused fans in the community to go at each other.

Basically I don't think he's being negative just to hate on Xbox or anything, so he might've genuinely heard something from a source. But that source could definitely be leading him on.

But Forza Horizon isn't just a racing game. It's an open-world game with RPG elements, story missions, etc.

Sure the moment to moment gameplay will be vastly different, but they actually do have a basic understanding of open-world game design.

There's still a big difference between having a car as the player character and a human being (or humanoid) as the player character, though. I actually think it'd probably be easier on Playground if they were making a Superman open-world game rather than Fable.

Just an official Superman open-world action-adventure game alone would be so hype for a ton of people tbh.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

The difference here is that this is a SECOND studio within Playground Games, and was hired and built around quite a few RPG developers starting 5 years ago. This isn't the Horizon team. So if anything, it's RPG developers trying to wrap their head around the Forzatech engine.

"That's another goal of Project 2, to allow us to do that. We're going to need to hire some very talented people with experience that we don't have."

That only helps in terms of the experience of the staff at the studio. They still don't have the engine, toolchain, or defined development workflows set up to make this kind of game. They will spend many thousands of manhours building all of that.

Being a new team, however, can also make things worse; since new teams haven't the collective experience of working together in a collaborative way, working out all of the conflicts and issues with the team dynamics to hone their team cohesiveness and productivity.

There are innumerable examples of newly formed teams of all-star devs completely collapsing, or producing sub-par products because it takes time and many dev projects under your belt for you to break in a new dev team. Look at MS's own The Initiative and the shit show that seems to have been so far and they haven't even yet shipped a game.

WRPGs are some of the worst possible games to attempt while trying to do this. Look at what happened with the newly formed Bioware team that made Mass Effect: Andromeda. The lack of quality in comparison to previous games was night and day.

But Forza Horizon isn't just a racing game. It's an open-world game with RPG elements, story missions, etc.

Sure the moment to moment gameplay will be vastly different, but they actually do have a basic understanding of open-world game design.

Lol, Forza Horizon's design and game structure is nothing like a proper western RPG. From a development and design perspective, they're a world apart.

 

[Kimahri]

But OG Fable was scaled down Fable. Scale it down any more and you've got a mobile game. Big yikes. I don't see any upside to trying to revive this IP. Even the old Fable games were shell's of what was promised. It's cursed. The IP just isn't interesting. The energy put toward this and Perfect Dark should absolutely be going to new IP. Reviving both just feels so damn forced.

Fable is one of the most charming and charismatic series out there, and if you don't like it, it's just not for you.

There are plenty enough people waiting for this to make your not interesting anough comment rather silly.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Sorry to crop your post like this. It is a fine post and I enjoyed the points you were making.

I just wanted to point out that all these examples are games marred by chronic tech problems of some kind.

Tech problems don't exist in a vacuum. If the devs progressed those games without making the required changes to their underlying engine and tools, it was because they didn't have either the time, the competency or the right resources to do it.

Either way, all of those three factors can either come as a result of or be wholly exacerbated by the inexperience of a team taking on a project they just aren't fundamentally equipped to tackle.

Cyberpunk - RED Engine being pushed too far without proper retooling. It's very scripted and the fact Witcher 3 worked was already a miracle.
Fallout 76 - Creation Engine being pushed too far. This engine is as script heavy as the above, hasn't been updated properly (it's graphics makeup is worse than RED) and it isn't properly multithreaded. It's basically coming apart at the seams.
Mass Effect: Andromeda - Frostbite adaptation was rough on the team, because they were doing a genre that hadn't been done before and using the engine was a requirement from EA to them.

Just a point, WRPGs by their very nature are very scripting-heavy. The engine needs to provide performance-lean scripting capability for game code scripters to build the layers of loot and questing systems.

A team's inexperience on the technical backend combined with a lack of functionality within the engine and editor will result in a complete mess... virtually every time.

 

[Craig of War]

LOL im gone to need a better source then Colteastwood and whoever that other guy is lol

 

[Negotiator101]

That only helps in terms of the experience of the staff at the studio. They still don't have the engine, toolchain, or defined development workflows set up to make this kind of game. They will spend many thousands of manhours building all of that.

Being a new team, however, can also make things worse; since new teams haven't the collective experience of working together in a collaborative way, working out all of the conflicts and issues with the team dynamics to hone their team cohesiveness and productivity.

There are innumerable examples of newly formed teams of all-star devs completely collapsing, or producing sub-par products because it takes time and many dev projects under your belt for you to break in a new dev team. Look at MS's own The Initiative and the shit show that seems to have been so far and they haven't even yet shipped a game.

WRPGs are some of the worst possible games to attempt while trying to do this. Look at what happened with the newly formed Bioware team that made Mass Effect: Andromeda. The lack of quality in comparison to previous games was night and day.



Lol, Forza Horizon's design and game structure is nothing like a proper western RPG. From a development and design perspective, they're a world apart.

They may as well pack it up and close it down. These clowns just haven't got a clue how to make an RPG, what were they thinking? Back to making 90+ MC rated racing games for these morons

 

[El Pistolero]

I have no idea what this means, honeslty, but what I do know is that the project was announced too early. MS had to garner excitement for its games' pipeline after a decade of nothingness, almost, so it made sense for them to reveal titles, teasers and CG trailers. Still, Playground is a talented studio, and I am eager to see what the game looks like, how it plays, and whether the british humour is a positive in this instance...Hopefully soon!

 

[BlackTron]

If it doesn't have to be scaled down, it's not Fable.

Now you know we're going to get an authentic entry in the franchise.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Time to wait and see.

 

[abacab driver]

Spoilers: every videogame gets scaled back during development due to hardware constraints.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Do we know if they had the same game designers who made Forza?

Would be pretty crazy to me, that's almost like a different job...

Playground is an amazing studio but yeah I can imagine how tough it would be going from perfecting racers to an action RPG

 

[Sid Of Bee]

I actually feel for some of these developers. How are they meant to be truly passionate about somebody else’s baby? I have more confidence in Avowed being a great game over Fable and Perfect Dark.

That's looking at it the negative way.

The positive way is that they save time and resources building a lore from scratch, yet can build upon it. Name recognition is marketing that's hard to buy. These franchises have potential. Maybe some of these developers are fans of games in these series and they're living out their dream of working with these IP.

Not every game has to be new IP. The market is big enough for new and old IP.... And the idea of new blood working on old IP is exciting.

They just have to be great games.

 

[DarkMage619]

I'm not the one that brought up POTY as evidence of "consistency". Complain to them.

Publisher of the year was brought up in response to the 'concern' so many have over what is going on at Xbox. I didn't realize you never mentioned consistency. I must have responded to your post in accident. Perhaps them getting Publisher of the Year credit last year broke their consistency of NOT getting it year after year and on that I agree.

That's looking at it the negative way.

The positive way is that they save time and resources building a lore from scratch, yet can build upon it. Name recognition is marketing that's hard to buy. These franchises have potential. Maybe some of these developers are fans of games in these series and they're living out their dream of working with these IP.

Not every game has to be new IP. The market is big enough for new and old IP.... And the idea of new blood working on old IP is exciting.

They just have to be great games.

Not only that but as mentioned a few times earlier Playground pitched the idea to MS. Why pitch a idea to use IP if you have no passion for it? This is all speculation and of course it will have to be taken in the most negative light possible. Pray for Xbox.

 

[RoboFu]

I’d like to be in that meeting…

“ what do you mean it takes place in different environments!?” ….

“ how do you not like the mtv style voice over the original voice narrator !!??”

“ two words… dance emotes! “

 

[Hawking Radiation]

While this is a rumour, I could see this being true. Playground doesn’t have experience with a large scale RPG like this so it’s reasonable.

If it is indeed scaled down, this will hurt.

Guerilla never had experience with RPG's either but they had a pretty good first run with Horizon Zero Dawn. I guess it comes down to resources and talent.
MS should have no problem in the resources department. They have more money than God. If they want a successful RPG for their studios, they should move heaven and earth to recruit the talent necessary to complete the project in a timely manner.

If this is all true it just looks like it comes across as mismanagement.

 

[Topher]

Publisher of the year was brought up in response to the 'concern' so many have over what is going on at Xbox. I didn't realize you never mentioned consistency. I must have responded to your post in accident. Perhaps them getting Publisher of the Year credit last year broke their consistency of NOT getting it year after year and on that I agree.

Yep. We are good, bro.

 

[Shmunter]

There was that Fable: The Journey previously so they’re not afraid to pivot into more of an on wheels experience.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

They may as well pack it up and close it down. These clowns just haven't got a clue how to make an RPG, what were they thinking? Back to making 90+ MC rated racing games for these morons

Don't be so puerile.

If you can't engage in an adult discussion you should consider sticking to the kiddy forum on Era.

 

[Sacred]

People taking rumors as absolute facts, that's embarrassing.

 

[nominedomine]

Spoilers: every videogame gets scaled back during development due to hardware constraints.

You honestly think it's hardware that is holding games back? It's budget and manpower by a huge margin.

 

[EDMIX]

damn that sucks.

At least they are addressing it. I'm still hype for them doing Fable and if it does flop, at least we got an answer to if someone else could attempt to take over the series. Its better MS tried then did nothing with the IP imho.

 

[Pedro Motta]

This is probably bullshit.