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Sega seemed to hit its peak around early 1994, then WTF happened?

Crew511A

Member
I honestly feel like there was a point around the Dreamcast where they were still peaking.

I think they still had great output on the Xbox and PS2. Panzer Dragoon, Out Run, Virtua Fighter, House of the Dead...plenty of old school IPs. It was about halfway into the following gen that Sega changed direction. In my mind it's like the difference between Metallica's Black album and Load. Some people hardly noticed a change, some people liked it. Others, like myself, want to turn back the clock.
 

MiguelItUp

Member
The Saturn and the Dreamcast are my 2 favorite consoles ever.
Sadly most of consumers weren’t like me.
Sega♥️+😭
Dreamcast was definitely one of mine. I didn't own a Saturn, but a friend of mine let me borrow his, and I appreciated it for what it was, haha. Had some great games.
I think they still had great output on the Xbox and PS2. Panzer Dragoon, Out Run, Virtua Fighter, House of the Dead...plenty of old school IPs. It was about halfway into the following gen that Sega changed direction. In my mind it's like the difference between Metallica's Black album and Load. Some people hardly noticed a change, some people liked it. Others, like myself, want to turn back the clock.
That's a great point, I almost forgot about the amount that they released on XB and PS2. I do remember them being MUCH more active. Yeah, that's a very accurate comparison, haha.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
A lot of those Xbox and PS2 releases from Sega were moved on Dreamcast projects. I know that GunValkyrie, JSRF were. Those were legit great games but no one bought them. Outrun 2, JSRF, GV, Sega GT 2002 (I LOVED Sega GT on DC and this one, can't be the only one!), Orta didn't sell.

But they're great. I bought Orta from the digital storefront last year. And I would instantly buy JSRF too if it would ever be added.
 
Maybe what happened in 1994 was actually the real Sega and their 'peak' was the unusual part, with the exception of arcades. The Master System was decent, just handled terrible and went up against the NES, Genesis was successful in America, but got trounced by PC Engine and competition in Japan. 32X, Sega-CD, too much hardware, too fast, too soon. It's like Sega was throwing paint at walls and hoping something would stick and they didn't have the ability to market everything.

If Sega didn't find 'lucky' success in Europe with the Master System and Genesis in USA and Europe, they would have been exposed as an incompetently run company much earlier. So much luck went their way, which they ruined with so many poor decisions.

Arrogance of Sega Japan ruined the 16 bit success, cut it off way to short. Sega of Japan was just too proud, they couldn't let Sega America or Europe take the lead, where they had the most success. Sega of Japan got what they wanted with Saturn, and they paid the price.



This is required viewing not just WRT Turbographx in America, but even PC Engine in Japan. Truth is PC Engine didn't perform at the level in Japan people think it did, it basically petered out in sales once the SFC arrived, same as the MegaDrive actually.

I'd probably go as far to say the PC Engine was closer to MegaDrive in terms of overall sales volume and marketshare in Japan, than it was to Super Famicom, altho the perception seems to be it was a very close 2nd to SFC in that territory.
 
This says a lot. Saturn wasn't what made Sega lose money, Dreamcast was. The mismanagement leading up to the Dreamcast played a big part, naturally.

Sega financials:

--------Sega Genesis introduced
FY 1989: (7.5 billion yen in operating income)
FY 1990: (13.0 billion yen in operating income)
FY 1991: (17.2 billion yen in operating income)
--------Sega CD introduced
FY 1992: (42.0 billion yen in operating income)
FY 1993: 28.017 billion yen in net income (62.540 billion yen in operating income)
FY 1994: 23.223 billion yen in net income (46.595 billion yen in operating income)
---------Sega Saturn introduced
---------Sega 32X introduced
FY 1995: 14.085 billion yen in net income (31.208 billion yen in operating income)
FY 1996: 5.304 billion yen in net income (29.636 billion yen in operating income)
FY 1997: 5.572 billion yen in net income (31.229 billion yen in operating income)
FY 1998: -35.635 billion yen in net LOSS (13.967 billion yen in operating income)
-------- Dreamcast introduced
FY 1999: -42.881 billion yen in net LOSS (2.088 billion yen in operating income)
FY 2000: -42.880 billion yen in net LOSS (-40.354 billion yen in operating LOSS)
FY 2001: -51.370 billion yen in net LOSS (-52.019 billion yen in operating LOSS)
-------- Sega ends production of Dreamcast and exits the console industry
FY 2002: -17.829 billion yen in net LOSS (14.201 billion yen in operating income)

TBF, at least some of those losses were also due to the shrinking of the arcade market globally, liquidating warehouses of Saturns and Saturn software (including taking the hit for systems and software still in the distribution chain and at retailer stores that went unsold), as well as marketing, R&D and production costs for Dreamcast & NAOMI.

Sega's Consumer segment (console division) was in the red since 1994.
What kept afloat the company were the Arcade operations and Arcade equipment segments.

pgDo7lQ.png


Meanwhile Nintendo was outprofitting SCE:
rMzf9ce.jpg

Technically true, but some context should probably be provided for people who may not know any better. Nintendo's business model, even by the time of 5th gen, was to use cheaper tech, usually by waiting until costs were low enough before putting the hardware at en masse. They also avoided using CD-ROM drives, and increased the profit margins on software going with cartridges as a result. And can't forget, this same strategy of avoiding the cutting-edge tech-wise is what they did with GameBoy since its inception, and also they had Pokemon.

SCE was putting out more technologically advanced (for its date of release; PS1 was 1994 in Japan after all) hardware at mass volume, and had to spend lots of money on studio acquisitions (Naughty Dog), publisher acquisitions (Psygnosis), PS1 R&D (Nintendo basically purchased the N64 GPU tech from Silicon Graphics, who did most of the hard work there. Sony designed their GTE in-house meaning more R&D costs), marketing budget (they obviously needed to spend much more than Sega or Nintendo since they were the newcomer), and signing various 3P exclusivity deals. They were more than prepared for any operating losses and even then they made enough profit over most of the PS1 gen.

MS would take a similar strategy with OG Xbox but were prepared to lose a lot of money (they ended up losing more than they originally wanted), and they couldn't repeat Sony's sales success so they generally lost money the entirety of 6th gen.
 
TBF, at least some of those losses were also due to the shrinking of the arcade market globally, liquidating warehouses of Saturns and Saturn software (including taking the hit for systems and software still in the distribution chain and at retailer stores that went unsold), as well as marketing, R&D and production costs for Dreamcast & NAOMI.



Technically true, but some context should probably be provided for people who may not know any better. Nintendo's business model, even by the time of 5th gen, was to use cheaper tech, usually by waiting until costs were low enough before putting the hardware at en masse. They also avoided using CD-ROM drives, and increased the profit margins on software going with cartridges as a result. And can't forget, this same strategy of avoiding the cutting-edge tech-wise is what they did with GameBoy since its inception, and also they had Pokemon.

SCE was putting out more technologically advanced (for its date of release; PS1 was 1994 in Japan after all) hardware at mass volume, and had to spend lots of money on studio acquisitions (Naughty Dog), publisher acquisitions (Psygnosis), PS1 R&D (Nintendo basically purchased the N64 GPU tech from Silicon Graphics, who did most of the hard work there. Sony designed their GTE in-house meaning more R&D costs), marketing budget (they obviously needed to spend much more than Sega or Nintendo since they were the newcomer), and signing various 3P exclusivity deals. They were more than prepared for any operating losses and even then they made enough profit over most of the PS1 gen.

MS would take a similar strategy with OG Xbox but were prepared to lose a lot of money (they ended up losing more than they originally wanted), and they couldn't repeat Sony's sales success so they generally lost money the entirety of 6th gen.
Damn some crazy graphs, especially that second one. Really puts things into perspective. I can't believe even during it's supposed "glory days" of the PS1-2, Sony was still making less than Nintendo most years, And this is old history but man that PS3 R&D really sunk them, and didn't pay off in the end. Krazy Ken. Nintendo meanwhile makes money hand over fist by repurposing old hardware into an unheard of concept. No wonder nobody will do proprietary hardware ever again. Look at how much better in financials PS4 did, without needing that insane R&D/hardware sold at loss, and now the PS5, despite having very little in way of exclusives, and hampered by availability for years, is their most profitable ever. YET Ninty, somehow, with less AAA 3rd party support than ever, and their handheld and console merged into one, continues to dominate the market as soon as the Switch came out.

It just tells you how out of touch fanboys are, how the power game doesn't matter to most people, and ultimately none of it relates to running a business right. Xbox would have been another Sega if the massive amount of money bled year after year wasn't just pocket change to MS. Sega just wouldn't have survived this market no matter what.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
TBF, at least some of those losses were also due to the shrinking of the arcade market globally, liquidating warehouses of Saturns and Saturn software (including taking the hit for systems and software still in the distribution chain and at retailer stores that went unsold), as well as marketing, R&D and production costs for Dreamcast & NAOMI.



Technically true, but some context should probably be provided for people who may not know any better. Nintendo's business model, even by the time of 5th gen, was to use cheaper tech, usually by waiting until costs were low enough before putting the hardware at en masse. They also avoided using CD-ROM drives, and increased the profit margins on software going with cartridges as a result. And can't forget, this same strategy of avoiding the cutting-edge tech-wise is what they did with GameBoy since its inception, and also they had Pokemon.

SCE was putting out more technologically advanced (for its date of release; PS1 was 1994 in Japan after all) hardware at mass volume, and had to spend lots of money on studio acquisitions (Naughty Dog), publisher acquisitions (Psygnosis), PS1 R&D (Nintendo basically purchased the N64 GPU tech from Silicon Graphics, who did most of the hard work there. Sony designed their GTE in-house meaning more R&D costs), marketing budget (they obviously needed to spend much more than Sega or Nintendo since they were the newcomer), and signing various 3P exclusivity deals. They were more than prepared for any operating losses and even then they made enough profit over most of the PS1 gen.

MS would take a similar strategy with OG Xbox but were prepared to lose a lot of money (they ended up losing more than they originally wanted), and they couldn't repeat Sony's sales success so they generally lost money the entirety of 6th gen.
The PS3 era basically wiped out all of Sony's PS1 and PS2 profits. And the first few years of PS4 were barely profitable.

It's really only since 2016 has Sony gaming profitability shot up. And that's more due to tons of third party e-store cuts and mtx and the big focus on digital sales (cut out the middle man for first party games)

Nintendo's profits have been giant aside from that Wii U dead time era. Based mostly on pure profits from hardware and first party sales.
 
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Gamer79

Predicts the worst decade for Sony starting 2022
I think there's no doubt to anyone that "peak Sega" was around 1992 to early 1994.

This was when they were on top of the world. They were outselling the SNES and pumping out hits like SOR2, Sonic 2/3, Shining Force, PS4, Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA in the arcades.

Sega was at the peak of their creativity and quality. During this time they made some of the best games of all time. It's like they could do no wrong.

But by around 1994, cracks were beginning to show. SOR3 felt unfinished and rushed and didn't live up to SOR2. The Sega CD while popular never really took off.
Some of their other big games like Sonic CD and Eternal Champions failed to live up to the hype.

It just seemed like they started to lose focus around that time. Trying to do too many things and not focusing on just making great games. There might be some deeper reason behind it though.
The Genesis was their epitome and they crashed and burned in a nuclear flux capacitor fashion!

1. They Came out with the Sega 32x sega add on. Expensive at the time, very little support, abandoned.

2. They Came out with the Sega CD. Expensive at the time, very little support, abandoned.

3. Then Sega Released the Sega Saturn. Expensive, Trouble running 3D, Didn't support it long, abandoned.

See the trend? They lost the trust of the consumer. It's ashame because they nailed it with the dreamcast but it was too little and too late. EA saying no to supporting the DC at the time was also a killer.
 
Damn some crazy graphs, especially that second one. Really puts things into perspective. I can't believe even during it's supposed "glory days" of the PS1-2, Sony was still making less than Nintendo most years, And this is old history but man that PS3 R&D really sunk them, and didn't pay off in the end. Krazy Ken. Nintendo meanwhile makes money hand over fist by repurposing old hardware into an unheard of concept. No wonder nobody will do proprietary hardware ever again. Look at how much better in financials PS4 did, without needing that insane R&D/hardware sold at loss, and now the PS5, despite having very little in way of exclusives, and hampered by availability for years, is their most profitable ever. YET Ninty, somehow, with less AAA 3rd party support than ever, and their handheld and console merged into one, continues to dominate the market as soon as the Switch came out.

It just tells you how out of touch fanboys are, how the power game doesn't matter to most people, and ultimately none of it relates to running a business right. Xbox would have been another Sega if the massive amount of money bled year after year wasn't just pocket change to MS. Sega just wouldn't have survived this market no matter what.

I think Sega could've survived as a platform holder at least another generation if they played into their strengths better, which were the arcade and bringing the arcade experience home. They could've fully synergized their arcade and home divisions as a very rewarding "pro-consumer" ecosystem, even though it would've required working directly with the various major arcade and entertainment center/theater etc. chains too.

Could've completely reshaped the arcade/FEC market into something much more than what it's effectively become, but Sega's eyes were set elsewhere.

The PS3 era basically wiped out all of Sony's PS1 and PS2 profits. And the first few years of PS4 were barely profitable.

It's really only since 2016 has Sony gaming profitability shot up. And that's more due to tons of third party e-store cuts and mtx and the big focus on digital sales (cut out the middle man for first party games)

Nintendo's profits have been giant aside from that Wii U dead time era. Based mostly on pure profits from hardware and first party sales.

I mean just looking at the profit side of things, Nintendo's probably got the most well-oiled model in the industry (though Rockstar might be pretty close with GTA5). However, some of the things they do to get there, to me personally as an individual customer, are just really BS.

Their hardware isn't just outdated, in some ways it's completely antiquated and in some ways I think it presents too much of a challenge to game design possibilities. They rarely drop the prices for their 1P games; not that it's a big issue for me personally (if a game's worth it, I buy it), but it's just funny how some people complain about Sony being anti-consumer (supposedly) but ignore that Nintendo's pricing practices are even more strict, yet they get a pass for some weird reason.

And while Nintendo have some of the best-managed IPs in the whole industry, in terms of major platform holders I feel they've usually taken the least chances on new IP, though for the past few years, Microsoft have arguably been even more conservative on that front. They may want to change it going forward but for now that's what it is.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I mean just looking at the profit side of things, Nintendo's probably got the most well-oiled model in the industry (though Rockstar might be pretty close with GTA5). However, some of the things they do to get there, to me personally as an individual customer, are just really BS.

Their hardware isn't just outdated, in some ways it's completely antiquated and in some ways I think it presents too much of a challenge to game design possibilities. They rarely drop the prices for their 1P games; not that it's a big issue for me personally (if a game's worth it, I buy it), but it's just funny how some people complain about Sony being anti-consumer (supposedly) but ignore that Nintendo's pricing practices are even more strict, yet they get a pass for some weird reason.

And while Nintendo have some of the best-managed IPs in the whole industry, in terms of major platform holders I feel they've usually taken the least chances on new IP, though for the past few years, Microsoft have arguably been even more conservative on that front. They may want to change it going forward but for now that's what it is.
They know their audience. I'd put one of my old coworkers as a good example of their buyer.

- Low hardware price to get them in. Check.
- Family friendly games and colourful franchises. Check.
- He and the wife barely even care about games, but it's all about the kids for fun and shut them up. Check.
- Pay high prices for games as you cant shut up Little Timmy waiting for a Steam, Xbox or Sony -60% off sale. Got to get them the game asap. Check.
 
I think Sega could've survived as a platform holder at least another generation if they played into their strengths better, which were the arcade and bringing the arcade experience home. They could've fully synergized their arcade and home divisions as a very rewarding "pro-consumer" ecosystem, even though it would've required working directly with the various major arcade and entertainment center/theater etc. chains too.

Could've completely reshaped the arcade/FEC market into something much more than what it's effectively become, but Sega's eyes were set elsewhere.



I mean just looking at the profit side of things, Nintendo's probably got the most well-oiled model in the industry (though Rockstar might be pretty close with GTA5). However, some of the things they do to get there, to me personally as an individual customer, are just really BS.

Their hardware isn't just outdated, in some ways it's completely antiquated and in some ways I think it presents too much of a challenge to game design possibilities. They rarely drop the prices for their 1P games; not that it's a big issue for me personally (if a game's worth it, I buy it), but it's just funny how some people complain about Sony being anti-consumer (supposedly) but ignore that Nintendo's pricing practices are even more strict, yet they get a pass for some weird reason.

And while Nintendo have some of the best-managed IPs in the whole industry, in terms of major platform holders I feel they've usually taken the least chances on new IP, though for the past few years, Microsoft have arguably been even more conservative on that front. They may want to change it going forward but for now that's what it is.
The thing is they tried. The Dreamcast had the best arcade ports anyone could ask for, and some of the best arcade games. It was a powerful machine that for the first time, brought arcade levels graphics to your home (prior to which wasn't possible). Arcades were also dying in the west, so it was a dead end anyway. They're as successful as can be back home in Japan, where arcades died a slower death and only recently did their arcade branch die off there. I can't envision a timeline where doubling down on arcades or synergizing them with the console market could've helped any.

Well oiled is a perfect way to describe Nintendo. People buy into the ecosystem, and it doesn't matter if it's super pricey for what you get, or the fact that you can't do what a lot of the competition is doing. People don't care. What Nintendo does well is a very specific set of games/IP, and people love those. Simple to get into, easy to grasp, and appealing to a large age group. It's the same kind of principles that makes Apple and Disney so successful.
 

Daniel Thomas MacInnes

GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus
Final Fantasy VII turned the tide.

That’s certainly true in Japan. Sony, Sega and Nintendo had fought to a three-way tie by the end of 1996. If it weren’t for Square and Enix, The two biggest names in videogames over there, who knows how it might have ended.

This reminds me of a Famitsu reader poll of the greatest videogames, circa 2005 or so. The entire list is nothing but Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Nintendo is in the best spot of all. They might not always secure the most marketshare or be the most popular brand around, but even their flops still made a profit. They don't take risks, and they don't pour in 100s of millions in development of AAA games. As far as I know Nintendo never sold a system at a loss. So even the Wii U disaster wouldn't burn them to the ground just like the GC didn't. On top of that they have devoted fans, so even some Wii U software did really well (MK8 selling nearly 10 million copies, which is insane for such a bad selling system). And they have monopoly on the dedicated handheld market, though this market is sort of blurred with the Switch being a hybrid but I think the Lite sells well.

Nintendo has certain IP that will always sell. A new Mario, Pokemon, Kart, Smash... it will sell. And they don't need 12tf to do so. Their next system will likely be much weaker than other devices on the market but Mario and the such will look and play well enough.
 

Scotty W

Gold Member
Chad Tendo goes away for summer holidays. Stacey needs a boyfriend for the summer, so she chooses Sage. Stacey is way out of Sage’s league, so he panics, and decides to go all out everyday: flowers, furniture, fancy ice cream etc. But then he runs out of ideas, so he decides to buy her tons of useless stuff: monogrammed handkerchiefs, fire extinguishers, a set of coffee mugs, a socket wrench, the collected works of George Chapman. The worst part is, everytime he buys her a gift, he guilts her into having sex with him.

A new guy moves into the neighborhood, Stoni. Stacey kicks Sage to the curb. She was tired of his terrible gifts.
 
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Dane

Member
32X certainly, but SEGA-CD is a 1991 product. It was released in Japan several years before the Saturn, and its existence was legitimate.

SEGA eventually killed support for MegaDrive, Game Gear, 32X and Mega-CD and I think it was a mistake really. Game Gear was actually having some pretty good games at the end of its life in Japan, you had the Kid's Gear as well, and supporting a console like this wasn't very expensive as the games were pretty simple. They should have put some more efforts in at least Game Gear and MegaDrive.

Then moving onto the Dreamcast they killed the Saturn completely, it was another mistake. They should have supported it to have a source of income. Saturn was phased out too early.
Sega and its shit management had too many consoles but then they decided to wipe out clean what was making an recurrent income, Kalinske or someone else said that they could easily have earned millions with the Genesis' secondary life.
I mean just looking at the profit side of things, Nintendo's probably got the most well-oiled model in the industry (though Rockstar might be pretty close with GTA5). However, some of the things they do to get there, to me personally as an individual customer, are just really BS.

Their hardware isn't just outdated, in some ways it's completely antiquated and in some ways I think it presents too much of a challenge to game design possibilities. They rarely drop the prices for their 1P games; not that it's a big issue for me personally (if a game's worth it, I buy it), but it's just funny how some people complain about Sony being anti-consumer (supposedly) but ignore that Nintendo's pricing practices are even more strict, yet they get a pass for some weird reason.

And while Nintendo have some of the best-managed IPs in the whole industry, in terms of major platform holders I feel they've usually taken the least chances on new IP, though for the past few years, Microsoft have arguably been even more conservative on that front. They may want to change it going forward but for now that's what it is.
Nintendo really do well their style of business, the 3DS at its absurd launch price had a good profit margin when analysts did a part bin price, I don't think they ever released a console at loss, maybe the Gamecube at 99 dollars in 2003? Their exclusive attach rate at full price is something unseen in other companies.
 

Celine

Member
They don't take risks
2903794-the.jpg


Still remember the madness ensued in the relative thread here on GAF.

Nintendo from time to time, takes some big risks.
That's why they are debt free and have a big stash of cash always ready so they have free hands to experiment and if some potentially interesting new concept emerge they have all the means to commercialize it.

Maybe to some, in hindsight, it would seem obvious that a new concept put out by Nintendo would become a smashing hit but in reality when you release unprecedented concepts you can't be sure of the outcome until it reaches the hands of consumers.
If the assumptions at design stage were wrong then your investment goes in smoke and in the case of consoles a company may risks billions of dollars.

Speaking of captain obvious, here a post I made a few months ago:
It will never cease to humour me how in 32-64 bit wave of consoles there were several game systems ready to display 3D graphics (polygon based) but no one, except Nintendo, understood that to adequately fullfil the 3D concept it was also needed to innovate at the input interface level.
What are videogames if not interactive entertainment?

Looks with what game pads PlayStation, Saturn, 3DO and Jaguar debuted with...

pad1.jpg

sega-saturn-primo-controller.jpg

3DO-Controller-By-Panasonic-large-image.jpg

Atari_jaguar_controller.jpg
 
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This is an interesting question which everyone gets wrong all the time because they just repeat what they heard without looking into it, so everyone speaks of the same 4-6 ills without realizing those weren't causes but symptoms.

Sonic 1 arguably the issue, and I'm not talking about the game, I'm talking about how SoA handled it. Because it was from there that Sega suddenly wanted to be on war footing with competition when they were not before, I've seen more and more people bring this up and they are right on further inspection, and that grew more and more each year, the Genesis success everywhere but Japan prompted the captains to take control of the ship and compete their way(SoJ). Now all of a sudden Sega was reacting, they were thinking about strategies to attract new customers yet never had the infrastructure to do it, they wanted marketing but didn't know how to do it on a competitive scale without bleeding cash, they thought if they overinvest in product and arcades, the result would cause enough novelty and hype for people to swarm to stores or waste coins in the arcades in crowds, it didn't happen, none of this had a safety net either.

By 1994, Sega was already losing a lot of money and was about to lose more. they had no long term plan, no short-term solution to immediate problems, SoJ crippled SoA, SoE was stagnant, Sega was putting out products with niche or no target demosgraphics expecting to replicate earlier successes without realizing why those successes happened, and by end of 1996 Sega was already marked for death. Sega was gambling at that point, they had lost enough profit that they had no way of remedying, they decided to try and push out a bunch of product and software hoping that they would stick enough even if not big hits, but just enough to bring in enough revenue to keep going and eventually refocus the brand, it didn't happen.

The Dreamcast, if it was up to Sega by itself, never would have or could have released, Sega needed help for the Dreamcast to even become a reality, they had pretty much cut off any other revenue they were getting from anywhere else not long after, with no safety net and no plan once again. Hoping a lot of in your face marketing, a cheaper product, and poorly targeted software in droves + partnerships to take advantage of their early release headstart, but by Jan 2000 anybody that wasn't dumb saw the writing was on the wall, if they didn't see it earlier.


People like to say PS2 "hype" killed the DC, despite the DC picking up in sales during the PS2's launch and after, so no it had nothing to do with PS2 hype, it had to do with one major fundamental issue, and that is Sega could not find a way to get consumers to buy their software which impacts who buys the hardware. They also constantly fumbled in how they marketed some of the software, and if things weren't moving too hot, they would rotate the software marketing, which made it hard for long-term sustainability for certain titles (Hi Soul Calibur).

What you ended up with is the Dreamcast becoming more and more across it's life in NA, a NFL2k machine. Europe was of secondary interest to Sega and they had an uphill battle there, Sega didn't realize why they had short-lived initial success with the Saturn in Japan, didn't recognize why they lost it later (with N64 nearly passing it in short time with a less domestically catered library) and basically launched the DC there to die.

NA was the big gamble, and it became after launch more and more of an NFL machine, by millions(m) (k thousands) sold NPD:

DC Sega Sonic Adventure 1.05m
DC Sega NFL 2K1 1.01m
DC Sega NFL 2K 1m
DC Sega Crazy Taxi 1m
DC Sega NBA 2K1 741k
DC Sega NBA 2K 726k
DC NAMCO Soul Calibur 573k
DC Sega Shenmue 458k
DC Sega House of the Dead 2 339k

Now looking at NA, the biggest region for the Dreamcast and what it's fate ultimately relied on, I want to point out that Sonic Adventure was initially bundled highly, yet NFL ended up proving to me a more popular bundle long-term in NA after the initial window. Sonic Adventure came out at launch in 1999.

Let me delve into this issue and why it's not wise to dismiss software as the problem, because lack of discourse ability and critical thinking makes many fans default to "ur saying the games are bad' which isn't the problem, the problem is that people were only attracted to few software titles, this is even before piracy became an issue which is also an overplayed excuse, there was not interest in Dreamcast buyers to grab more software in the Dreamcasts library from the entry point. it's the exact same issue the Sega Saturn had (which no one doubts) outside of Japan, just not as bad because NFL2K was a major system seller and hit in NA, where as the Saturn in NA never really had "hits" at all.

Now, we know that on 9/9/99 was the Dreamcast launch.

Sonic Adventure was available at launch on 9/9/99, now let's look at the other best selling games not related to sports.

Crazy taxi was released in Jan 2000, not far from the 9/9/99 launch and at the end of the launch window period post-holiday season.

Soul Calibur was a launch title.

Shenmue Nov 8th 2000, the only one later on the time scale, marketed heavy and presented in mags and online as a graphics showcase, right on holiday-season, less than 500k units.

House of the Dead 2, Released as a launch title for the system.

Now, look at how most of these were near launch except Shenmue, which was a uniquely marketed case offline and online, yet didn't do that much better than House of the Dead 2, which was another game near launch.

Now yes, NFL2K was a launch game, did very very well, but 2K1 did even better, and sold more than 2K, and that game out in Sept 2000, not far from Shenmue. NBA2K1 was Oct 2000, one month form Shenmue. Both successors still retained high numbers, and saw an increase outselling their predecessors. after early 2001 sales collapsed, and later Sega announced the discontinuation, but before that there was a sales increase into early 2001.

When people think of Dreamcast what do you they thing about? Seaman, Street Fighter III 3rd strike, Blue Stinger, Phantasy Star, Power Stone 1-2. Fighting Vipers 2, Virtua Fighter 3TB, Mortal Kombat Gold, Skies of Arcadia, Sonic Adventure 2, Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Tony Hawk PS 2, Grandia II, Garou, Dead or Alive 2, Outrigger, Dynamite Cop, Virtua Cop 2, etc etc etc.

Now here's my question, where are all these games, and why could none of these sell 339k units or near it? Because people who were buying the Dreamcasts, were not in any, even marginally significant numbers, buying other games in the library, and over time the Dreamcast became a NFL2K/NBA2K machine, primarily the former. This was evident before piracy was much of a factor, and even though that did become worse in later 2000, in NA specifically, it still wasn't a major deal, and we saw an INCREASE in software for the popular sports titles not a DECREASE, an INCREASE while everything else was not charting at all outside Shenmue. So you can't possibly even use piracy as an excuse. We also have an increase on hardware buying with those sales increases. Peopel were buying Sega as a sports EA alternative, that's what it comes down too.

Like i said before, it's just like the Saturn from before with the DC, except the DC actually had something SAT did not outside of japan, and that was a killer APP, the NFL2k series, and to a lesser extent the NBA2k Series. Outside of that difference, they had the same issue, people buying Saturns and people buying Dreamcasts, were not interested in expanding their gaming libraries form when they entered in any meaningful way, and fence leaners did not think what they saw warranted a purchase whether they wanted the games or not. This combo was why Sega was doomed from the launch of the Saturn and they did not have at launch, continuation of popular genesis series, the same third parties that made people look at Sega has the "edgy" console, or a affordable price point, etc.

When an alternative to the Genesis came out 3DO, the first step of the stage was set, after surprisingly outpacing the Jaguar 3:1 even when it was still overpriced before the cost cut down, and even aided in PSX cutting the SAT off in Japan, in NA the 3DO was grabbing devs that Sega would have had, and then started sharing them with the PSX, and then all the games that were being made for 3DO (including MGS and others), all went to the PSX. yeah, SAT shared some games with 3DO as well, but not as much, and 3DO becoming a software maker after deeming the M2 too costly and canning it, also helped bring more games to PSX via third-party contracts canned after 3DO's death, and 3DO recommending these devs to go to PSX. None of them were interested in the SAT otherwise they wouldn't have been stalling about releasing on consoles until that recommendation.

In the end in NA, the Saturn had an issue attracting people with software, which was needed to increase hardware sales and that became an issue very quickly to the point that Sega's overgamble on NA prompted SoJ to ignore trying to at least salvage the Saturn as niche profit device, and cutting it off entirely with help of JP investors, and some connections SoA had, to bring out the Dreamcast in another gamble, this time by itself with no other revenue streams coming in (naomi arcade hardware low margins excluded) which was the same mistake Atari made with the Jaguar, and the Falcon, and Commodore with the CD32, and NEC with the Turbo CD and PCFX.

Now the question is, ok we know what the issue was, but what caused it, why were 1991-1993 game changes for Sega in the console space, what happened?

it's simple, Sega was never equipped to actually compete. Before Segas heel turn thanks to Sonic 1, Sega was not really competing. The best you'll see is in Japan the Sg-1000, a gimped CV(ColecoVusion) clone, seeing the Famicom/NES take off in japan, and decided to redesign their marketing and some of their games (look at the CV version of Congo Bongo and the SG-1000 version) to somewhat compete with Nintendo. but this wasn't to win, this was to provide a money making alternative to the Famicom because they were running away with it. it didn't work, even with the Mark III/SMS, instead it would be NEC coming out of nowhere that would shake things up in Japan.

However outside Japan, a Sega machine was a "hey remember those arcade games by Sega we can play those at home on the TV" and that's basically the extent of Segas gameplan. They would make bank on their game in the arcade, bring them to a Sega console, maybe downgrade some of them, make good money off modest sales due to low cost, and for the big name games they would bring those games to home consoles, and computers like Amiga, ST, C64, and so on. It wasn't unusual for Sega to partner with third-parties to adapt their games as well. This strategy worked and made Sega a lot of money (except SMS in NA that didn't work), and didn't have much cost to Sega. Consumers had access to Segas games across platforms, but with the "best" ports being on Sega's own branded machines of course.

With Sonic 1, and successful third-party partnerships like MK which was being pitted against SFII by consumers and industry media, Sega was now king of the mountain and they had to protect their throne. But when you look at Genesis software sales, seeing their best sellers, and looking at how things such as the Sega CD, even with MK and Sonic, couldn't really move many units, you could tell things were going the wrong direction even as early as 1993. Not to mention their computer and edutainment attempts among other bone headed decisions. The behavior of Sega then and before are completely different.

Sega hits were no longer on other consoles, Sega no longer had regional autonomous control for local revenue and profits, Sega no longer has a solid gameplan that was max return/low cost, low risk. Sega now had to centralize themselves corporate, marketing, and funding wise. Sega now was trying to get ahead of everyone with the next big thing, Sega was now spending crazy on in your face marketing, Sega was now saying they had a competition software IP to react to other companies hits in similar genres, Sega was now partnering with other companies to try and invest or enter into markets they had no preparation for, and so on. All with no safety net, and all without building the infrastructure to support it internally and externally.

You don't go from a sudden high you never expected to reach, and then hit turmoil in only 3 years or so for nothing, or for just one or two things, Sega never did what they needed to to make the company able to handle all the things they wanted to do, or were doing, the relationship between SoJ, and SoA, isn't even that relevant at the end of the day, yeah there was conflict, but they were losing money regardless, they could have gotten along and nothing would have changed without a completely different approach to how they handled their success from before.

Curiously, while it's significance is debated the 32X which is often blamed for Sega's demise wrongfully, was actually a great seller. The thing about the 32X that hurt Sega wasn't because they made it but because they cut it off early. Which pissed off retailers and consumers, it was actually the best selling new machine before they killed it, compared to the 3DO and Jaguar, and actually did better in the first 6 months iirc than the Saturn did in a year in NA. It also would have been a good way for developers to learn how to program for the Saturn since the 32X has similarities architecturally. But by throwing that in the trash, Sega killed their last life line of saving the Saturn in NA, which they gambled heavily on and lost.

To tackle Japan really quick, the Saturn was a fluke as much as it pains me to say, all evidence points to it being a fluke, and it was only a fluke for a short time. The PSX with help of 3DO at first nipping at Saturn sales, and then dying and shifting all it's support to PSX, helped with early PSX sales as it built-up it's library, by the time of Tobal no. 1, the trajectory has PSX ahead while the Saturn was gradually declining. Software sales were becoming notably worse for the Saturn at this time, it was effectively already over in terms of who would win, it then became a question of, how much will Sega sell in 2nd place, especially with the N64 delay? Well, the FF7 demo came along with some other popular titles and it was now clear even to skeptics Sega was not going anywhere near number one, however the 2nd place thoughts still stood. Until the N64 came out with a great launch and was outpacing the Saturn long-term without many of the game genres and series people WERE buying PSX's and SAT's for. N64 if it came out earlier, had a few months more time in the market, or if they just had one more semi-hit in Japan would have passed the Saturn in sales, launching late, in less time. Saturn had that first two years~ as viable before it ended. The change in focus to domestic from international did not work. Now, they could have kept the Saturn around for profits as a cheap game player but Sega considered the Saturn an image problem and wiped it out once the Dreamcast was available, which did worst in Japan than anywhere else, the complete opposite of the Saturn.

Curiously, Sonic which is trigger for the chain of events that ended up resulting in Sega imploding onto itself, was also not as big as Sega made people believe. After Sonic 1, which was also bundled against the wishes of SoJ, Sonic 2's marketing campaign and media coverage for Segas "killer threat" couldn't even met half of Sonic 1's performance.

One could simply brush this off as a lack of heavy bundling, even though Sonic 2 was also bundled quite a bit, and had an expansive marketing campaign, this happened again in a worse way with Sonic 3, and even worse after that with the separate release of Sonic and Knuckles. By this point Sonic, with no matter how much hype and marketing muscle, couldn't sell 2 million units. Nothing after S&K sold a million until Sonic Adventure, which out of 9 million Dreamcasts, sold around 2 million copies, most in NA as shown above, which was overlapped by the NFL bundle and various other bundles Sega wanted to see would stick. It barely did anything in Europe, which was a major Sonic Genesis region, and of course nothing in Japan, as Sonic never took off there.

Sonics sales matched nearly 1:1 Sega's trajectory which I find quite interesting.

So the issue with Sega isn't so simple as what most people think, Sega found success, did nothing to sustain that success, and fell apart. That's an oversimplified but accurate summary as to "Wtf happed" and why they ended up leaving hardware and changing into what they became.

Really, it's not that different from what saw other companies fall, Atari, Commodore, Coleco, NEC, had many symptoms that led to their deaths, but very simple explanations of what started the chain of events, All of which reached success no one including them was expecting, and screwed it up by simply not preparing for anything, having no safety net, and not building sustaining infrastructure overtime. Even Coleco, which CV was not hurt by the crash as the others, went too far with their attempt to enter the Computer market with the Adam, instead of revamping their electronics section to successful areas they closed it down and went all in on dolls, with something that was obviously a fad to compete with Barbie and other brands, and at no point had prepared for any issues.

Commodore and Atari are well known, and NEC's mistakes are similar with a mix of their mistakes and Segas.

If anything the smartest industry entrant was 3DO, there was no way to expect the multiple license manufacturer format to not work until the project started, because even then it seemed like it was making progress. It ended up making things incredibly costly in the end, makers were not making back losses, and despite some well-selling top titles, it made it expensive to invest in both hardware and software.

3DO did this strategy because they didn't have enough money to start from scratch even with all their connections, partnerships and funding. it was the then best way for a new comer to enter then then ballooning costs of the gaming industry. This was foreshadowing the amount it would take to enter from scratch, which Microsoft ended up learning 3 or so years after 3DO's hardware division sale. A $3.5-4 billion estimated total loss or Microsoft.

But otherwise the failures seem to have always been due to the companies being just dumb really. With bad decision makers and no one thinking to build support and fallbacks. The current 3 companies have been around long enough to adjust, and all 3 are able to take hits, which Sega and others were never able to do at any point (except maybe Commodore).

TL : DR Yep, I hope this ridiculously long rant on a gaming internet forum, educates you on the matter.
 
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I think there's no doubt to anyone that "peak Sega" was around 1992 to early 1994.

This was when they were on top of the world. They were outselling the SNES and pumping out hits like SOR2, Sonic 2/3, Shining Force, PS4, Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA in the arcades.

Sega was at the peak of their creativity and quality. During this time they made some of the best games of all time. It's like they could do no wrong.

But by around 1994, cracks were beginning to show. SOR3 felt unfinished and rushed and didn't live up to SOR2. The Sega CD while popular never really took off.
Some of their other big games like Sonic CD and Eternal Champions failed to live up to the hype.

It just seemed like they started to lose focus around that time. Trying to do too many things and not focusing on just making great games. There might be some deeper reason behind it though.
I will always regret not getting a Sega Genesis during that span. There were some great games that I would’ve loved to play back then and their game prices always seemed to be a bit cheaper than SNES games too.
 
TBF, at least some of those losses were also due to the shrinking of the arcade market globally, liquidating warehouses of Saturns and Saturn software (including taking the hit for systems and software still in the distribution chain and at retailer stores that went unsold), as well as marketing, R&D and production costs for Dreamcast & NAOMI.



Technically true, but some context should probably be provided for people who may not know any better. Nintendo's business model, even by the time of 5th gen, was to use cheaper tech, usually by waiting until costs were low enough before putting the hardware at en masse. They also avoided using CD-ROM drives, and increased the profit margins on software going with cartridges as a result. And can't forget, this same strategy of avoiding the cutting-edge tech-wise is what they did with GameBoy since its inception, and also they had Pokemon.

SCE was putting out more technologically advanced (for its date of release; PS1 was 1994 in Japan after all) hardware at mass volume, and had to spend lots of money on studio acquisitions (Naughty Dog), publisher acquisitions (Psygnosis), PS1 R&D (Nintendo basically purchased the N64 GPU tech from Silicon Graphics, who did most of the hard work there. Sony designed their GTE in-house meaning more R&D costs), marketing budget (they obviously needed to spend much more than Sega or Nintendo since they were the newcomer), and signing various 3P exclusivity deals. They were more than prepared for any operating losses and even then they made enough profit over most of the PS1 gen.

MS would take a similar strategy with OG Xbox but were prepared to lose a lot of money (they ended up losing more than they originally wanted), and they couldn't repeat Sony's sales success so they generally lost money the entirety of 6th gen.

Hmm, even if MS were to have sold 50 million or even 70 million OG Xboxes, Microsoft would have lost more money than they did. Sales success was of the actual consoles was not the sources of Microsoft loses on the OG Xbox, it was a combination of software/marketing investment, an the deals they had with various companies for software and hardware. Nvidia is commonly cited but isn't the only one The Xbox would have needed to been at LEAST $150 more than it costed to make money but Microsoft knew they had to compete at an affordable price.

Also GB didn't have pokemon until later, it was really Tetris that helped the GB bury it's better competition.

As for Sony having the money to take hits and develop and compete mostly on their own without much help, this is what the 3DO was foreshadowing, the 3DO strategy was done because even with the partnerships, funding, and access they couldn't pull the same stunt, they couldn't even do something like buy from from Silicon like Nintendo did, they'd still have to produce the rest of the console, and then mass produce the console itself, and software. 3DO was likely the last time we see a "A" or "AA" guy try to enter the console industry.
 

Daniel Thomas MacInnes

GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus
One of the points mentioned here is how massively expensive the videogame hardware business becomes in Generation Five and beyond, and this is largely why Sega was doomed. They were never rich enough to play poker with a rival who could just buy them out, to say nothing of a second rival who could buy the first out. And let’s not get into the exploding production costs of software, where you need to sell a million copies just to break even.

One interesting thing about Sega in the US is that all of their home systems, apart from the Genesis, each sold around 2-3 million units. That appears to be their ceiling of support. For whatever reason, Sega’s brand of arcade games only appeal to a relatively small audience.

Nintendo has brand loyalty you’d kill to have. After all, they raised an entire generation of kids, and those kids (and, in time, their children as well) will crawl through sewers to get at Nintendo’s franchise hits. They can be left hanging for years—from N64 and Ocarina to the present day—and yet they still show up in droves.

Sega never had that kind of diehard loyalty. They don’t really have diehard fans. Most of the Genesis fans were casual, and they tuned in for two reasons: Sonic and Sports. They were fickle, they jumped onto whatever was the newest fad—digitized graphics, pre-rendered, 3D polys, “gore-add” shading, real-time light sourcing, lightly-glory f/x—despite having no idea what those technical terms even meant. Ah, well, it’s the nature of the business, and for whatever reason, Sega found themselves always behind the curve and trying to catch up. Not that anybody bothered to notice.

BTW, does anyone remember how Sega America was trying to buy 3DO and their M2 console for a 1996 launch? Weird how that completely went down the memory hole, but I don’t think anyone properly considered the ramifications of what it all meant for Saturn in ‘95.

Once again, with feeling: Saturn and Dreamcast deserved to be far more popular. Sega was hitting their creative streak, and hardly anyone bothered to look. Nights deserved to sell millions, just like Mario and Crash. The Sega arcade games deserved to be million-sellers. Dragon Force—MOTHER$&@#%?! DRAGON FORCE— deserved to sell millions. The Lobotomy Trilogy? Shining Force 3? Enemy Zero? Saturn Bomberman? Decathlete and Winter Heat? Steep Slope Sliders? World Series Baseball 98? Worldwide Soccer 97/98? The Panzer Dragoon Trilogy?! Panzer Effing Saga?! Nothing?! Nothing sold?!

Whose fault was that? And I’m not even mentioning the Japanese library: Silvergun, DOA, Grandia, Sakura Wars, Baroque, Capcom’s 4MB fighters, all those arcade shooters. Ugh!

Gamers dropped the ball big time. The kids screwed up. They missed out.
 
SEGA falling apart is one of my gaming tragedies of all time. Their platforms always hosted some of the more creative ideas. I wish things turned out different for them but their management sure didn’t do them any favors.
 
A bunch of dumb kids decided to "wait for ps2" instead of grabbing the affordable and ahead of it's time, Sega Dreamcast. Then PS2 launched with no games. Then pirates like high school me simply downloaded and burned the entire dreamcast library and gave it out to friends.
 
One of the points mentioned here is how massively expensive the videogame hardware business becomes in Generation Five and beyond, and this is largely why Sega was doomed. They were never rich enough to play poker with a rival who could just buy them out, to say nothing of a second rival who could buy the first out. And let’s not get into the exploding production costs of software, where you need to sell a million copies just to break even.

One interesting thing about Sega in the US is that all of their home systems, apart from the Genesis, each sold around 2-3 million units. That appears to be their ceiling of support. For whatever reason, Sega’s brand of arcade games only appeal to a relatively small audience.

Nintendo has brand loyalty you’d kill to have. After all, they raised an entire generation of kids, and those kids (and, in time, their children as well) will crawl through sewers to get at Nintendo’s franchise hits. They can be left hanging for years—from N64 and Ocarina to the present day—and yet they still show up in droves.

Sega never had that kind of diehard loyalty. They don’t really have diehard fans. Most of the Genesis fans were casual, and they tuned in for two reasons: Sonic and Sports. They were fickle, they jumped onto whatever was the newest fad—digitized graphics, pre-rendered, 3D polys, “gore-add” shading, real-time light sourcing, lightly-glory f/x—despite having no idea what those technical terms even meant. Ah, well, it’s the nature of the business, and for whatever reason, Sega found themselves always behind the curve and trying to catch up. Not that anybody bothered to notice.

BTW, does anyone remember how Sega America was trying to buy 3DO and their M2 console for a 1996 launch? Weird how that completely went down the memory hole, but I don’t think anyone properly considered the ramifications of what it all meant for Saturn in ‘95.

Once again, with feeling: Saturn and Dreamcast deserved to be far more popular. Sega was hitting their creative streak, and hardly anyone bothered to look. Nights deserved to sell millions, just like Mario and Crash. The Sega arcade games deserved to be million-sellers. Dragon Force—MOTHER$&@#%?! DRAGON FORCE— deserved to sell millions. The Lobotomy Trilogy? Shining Force 3? Enemy Zero? Saturn Bomberman? Decathlete and Winter Heat? Steep Slope Sliders? World Series Baseball 98? Worldwide Soccer 97/98? The Panzer Dragoon Trilogy?! Panzer Effing Saga?! Nothing?! Nothing sold?!

Whose fault was that? And I’m not even mentioning the Japanese library: Silvergun, DOA, Grandia, Sakura Wars, Baroque, Capcom’s 4MB fighters, all those arcade shooters. Ugh!

Gamers dropped the ball big time. The kids screwed up. They missed out.

Oh man. Well said. So well said. I'm 36. From ages 10-16, I was screaming all the things you just said but for whatever reason my friends went with PS over Saturn and wanted to "wait for ps2". To this day I still hold a sill grudge against PS and I only have a gaming PC lol
 
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Celine

Member
Curiously, while it's significance is debated the 32X which is often blamed for Sega's demise wrongfully, was actually a great seller. The thing about the 32X that hurt Sega wasn't because they made it but because they cut it off early. Which pissed off retailers and consumers, it was actually the best selling new machine before they killed it, compared to the 3DO and Jaguar, and actually did better in the first 6 months iirc than the Saturn did in a year in NA. It also would have been a good way for developers to learn how to program for the Saturn since the 32X has similarities architecturally. But by throwing that in the trash, Sega killed their last life line of saving the Saturn in NA, which they gambled heavily on and lost.
I agree with your overall point that Sega's success with Genesis/Mega Drive was ephemeral and that said initial success wasn't channeled to fortify the company instead began a series of headless initiatives to beat the competition without taking in consideration of the profitability or the potential risk faced.
However the 32X was a flat out terrible idea and another symptom of how clueless Sega management really was.
When you are in a transitional phase you don't want to confuse the consumers and developers because your future profits depends heavily on how widely adopted your next-gen platform become thus it is imperative to transition the big userbase on your current platform to the next one.
Sega of America was fearing the high price of the Saturn wouldn't be welcomed in US therefore tried the add-on strategy to extend the Genesis lifespan however the developers and consumers were aware that the 'real' Sega next-gen console was being released in Japan which made them wary in investing in the 32X.
The initial plan by Sega was that the 32X would last 2-3 years while in the meantime the price of the Saturn would drop off but when 32X missed the forecasts the platform was quickly discontinued.
Nintendo was cancelling completed projects like Starfox 2 to maximize the success of the next-gen iteration while Sega was wastefully dividing their resources by catering to two different 'next-gen' platforms.
In fact Saturn and 32X share the same CPU but the architecture are not the same.

Sega was never good enough to be truly competitive in the home videogame business.
It was just a matter of time before they would exit the console business.
 

GenericUser

Member
Basically the Saturn happened. The machine was designed as a 2D Powerhouse while the consumers and competitors where looking for/making 3D games. That meant fewer 3D games in worse quality for the Sega machine. I was there in the 90. Games like Alundra on the PS1 now have cult following. Back then, the game was vastly overshadowed by 3D games. Nobody wanted 2D games in the late 90s.
 
Ofcourse, Stolar wasn't entirely wrong. Its easy to claim otherwise right now but you weren't going to promote your 32-bit system with 2D games back in 1995. Thats not what we wanted. The whole point of the Playstation and Saturn was that we could finally play 3D games at home. 2D was something that could be achieved on the MD and SNES, and we'd been there. So yeah, Stolar blocked 2D games as he felt it didn't display what the PSX could actually do. And at the market he catered towards, he wasn't wrong.

When I walked in to a gaming store back then, I saw the Playstation launch lineup. I pointed at Parodius, and asked others wtf this was doing on Playstation. It looked like a Super Nintendo game. MK3 was an outlier. It was highly popular anyway, and it was being advertised as finally arcade perfect on console (not true, I think its a shit port). Ofcourse, today I'd likely rather play Parodius than Tekken 1 or Kileak or something, but in 1995 I wouldn't waste my cash on it (I did buy Parodius though, sometime in 1998 or so, for a tenner or 2).

It was when I borrowed Street Fighter Alpha, I hadn't played SF since the Megadrive, I noticed 2D was still cool. SFA was a looker, it had huge sprites, lots of color and flash. Comparable to what Strive is now. I thought it was great. I bought SFA2 as a result and liked it even more. From there on I started to enjoy 2D again; MMX3, SoTN etc. The Saturn was king, but the PSX has some amazing 2D games as well.

Yeah. It's a shame 2d couldn't at the time be pushed as a bullet point alongside 3d.

This wasn't the extent of Stolar's shortsightedness. He also said that Nintendo should go third party... in 2015.
 
I think that peak Sega was before Sonic existed.

However their output throughout the 90s was still great, but Sega of America with their focus of full motion video on the Sega CD and their insistance to release the 32x as a "transition" device broke the company... This took resources away from worthwhile projects and broke trust with their clients.

Also, Nintendo kept their focus on games, and Sony happened.
 
One interesting thing about Sega in the US is that all of their home systems, apart from the Genesis, each sold around 2-3 million units. That appears to be their ceiling of support. For whatever reason, Sega’s brand of arcade games only appeal to a relatively small audience.
Evidence strongly suggests the Saturn didn't do 2 million, although there's a possibility Sega overshipped. The Master system also did 1.5 million, and then there's the other projects that didn't do well. in US the DC and Genesis were the only successes.

Nintendo has brand loyalty you’d kill to have. After all, they raised an entire generation of kids, and those kids (and, in time, their children as well) will crawl through sewers to get at Nintendo’s franchise hits. They can be left hanging for years—from N64 and Ocarina to the present day—and yet they still show up in droves.
The N64 (and GameCube/Wii U) work against this point. Brining up OoT is also strange considering GE was the more popular title, but in either case these sold because of the game droughts and Nintendos' lop sided marketing which pissed off third parties outside of Midway, which is why they went on an apology tour with the Gamecube. There were no droves outside revisionist fanaticism that retained from the NES days and SNES days in the US SPECFICALLY. Without that, the N64 would have been lucky to sell much more than the Dreamcast.

Sega never had that kind of diehard loyalty. They don’t really have diehard fans. Most of the Genesis fans were casual, and they tuned in for two reasons: Sonic and Sports.
They also came for Midway arcade games, and some Atari games stuff, not to mention for Europe Amiga ports as well. But those were pushed aside witht he Saturn, the first major mistake.

BTW, does anyone remember how Sega America was trying to buy 3DO and their M2 console for a 1996 launch?

Actually, it was Sega wanting to buy 3DO itself, not just the M2 console. Which actually, would have ended up working out better than the Saturn, would have been stronger, would have been already done giving Sega less R&D, and they would have the strongest consoles out of PSX/N64. Of course, Sega denied this because they were panicked about their image of they didn't make their own console inhouse, which then ended up being changed up because of reactiosn to the competition anyway, but still ended up the weakest of the 3.

That would have actually been a good deal. Oh well.

Once again, with feeling: Saturn and Dreamcast deserved to be far more popular. Sega was hitting their creative streak, and hardly anyone bothered to look.
No they didn't, and for what the Dreamcast was in NA, it WAS pretty popular...as a sports machine with some nice side arcade game ports and some experimental titles and was basically as popular as you can get.

Underwhelming titles creative or not are still underwhelming, and that still hasn't changed. Half the games people mention for the DC that can't be gotten somewhere else (back then) were one and dones most of the time. Games like Canon Spike and Power Stone weren't "system sellers", Outrigger and House of the Dead were also not console sellers, and were fund romps that were interesting for a short time. Experimental titles like Seaman and others were curiosities, not "this looks interesting I'd buy a system for that" curiosity but "I already have a DC, maybe I'll see what this is" curiosities, many of such games targeting a niche.

A good chunk of these creative games were also not that fun and ha limited appeal, some had many mechanical or other problems. Sonic Adventure, the hyped 3D Sonic title didn't move many Dreamcast itself and in many cases came with the console. It has a slew of issues that people for some reason want to pretend where not there.

One of the reason, though selling less than 500k, Shenmue did ok numbers in US, is because not only was it presented as some graphical showcase for the console, but it was presented as a martial arts adventure that was worth the money and investment. It was like playing a very bad poorly dubbed martial arts movie with call outs to Sega classics, one of the handful of games on the system that wasn't a PC port of that type. Where several other commonly cited DC favorites, excluding the ones ignoring fan input, where incredibly short, had low replay value, or were great but one and dones and not really a reason to buy a console but to supplement a purchase at best.

Meanwhile NFl2K and NBA 2K were actually being brought in droves, and at the time were Sega games.

Several of the games you blamed on gamers were in niches that even on the PSX barely sold, yet the PSX seemed to do well, same with the region limited N64, heck a chunk of Saturn games didn't even do that well in Japan. The Dreamcast just flat out failed there.

In NA, despite the Saturn selling more than the 3DO, no Saturn game sold more than Gex. Probably not Need for Speed, SFIIT or Fifa either. People did not feel attracted to the software after the launch months.

A bunch of dumb kids decided to "wait for ps2" instead of grabbing the affordable and ahead of it's time, Sega Dreamcast.
That's not what happened and is a myth.
 
I think that peak Sega was before Sonic existed.

However their output throughout the 90s was still great, but Sega of America with their focus of full motion video on the Sega CD and their insistance to release the 32x as a "transition" device broke the company... This took resources away from worthwhile projects and broke trust with their clients.

Also, Nintendo kept their focus on games, and Sony happened.
This is also a Myth, 32X was a smart move, SoJ signed off on it, it was the best selling "new" 3D console hardware until it was cut short and ahd architecture similarities with the Saturn, several devs not on Saturn early on but were on 32X split between PC and PSX, that's telling alone.

Sega CD switched to full motion video because non-FMV games were failing to move units and the FMV games were starting to, but Sega picked some mixed and bad ones out of the few gems in the pile, their video output was also a pretty big issue. Blur, low colors, static, and other issues.

Sega CD btw had games, so Sega was also focused on games like Ninten do, not sure what that means.

Yeah. It's a shame 2d couldn't at the time be pushed as a bullet point alongside 3d.
The 2D block is exaggerated, games that were clearly needing the newer hardware to run them often were exceptions, especially if they proved popular to audiences in dmeos and marketing. Rayman is a great example of a 2D game selling boat loads that couldn't actually run as it was on older platforms.


Basically the Saturn happened. The machine was designed as a 2D Powerhouse while the consumers and competitors where looking for/making 3D games. That meant fewer 3D games in worse quality for the Sega machine. I was there in the 90. Games like Alundra on the PS1 now have cult following. Back then, the game was vastly overshadowed by 3D games. Nobody wanted 2D games in the late 90s.

Not true, yes it was primarily a 2D powerhouse, that could run scaler games and do all kinds of things with spites (though still about a gen behind in tech to run the later releases) it was also designed to at bare minimum run Model 1 3D games. This was something that was in mind s the Saturn was being finalized, hence why sega reacted tot he Jaguar they way they did, and then Sony later.
 

RAIDEN1

Member
Hideki Sato (one of the key men behind the origins of the Saturn) did an interview some time ago for a Japanese magazine where amongst other things he was very frank about his regrets with the Saturn, to quote one part:

What sticks out most about the Saturn in your memories? It was around for four years, but is there anything you wish you could have done differently?

Sato: I’m not sure if you call it a memory, but a regret I have is not going with one of our options to use the arcade system Model 1 as the base for the Saturn. As I mentioned, I couldn’t choose that option due to the situation with the development teams at the time. However, I can’t help but think it would have been better to just force our way ahead by throwing out all of our past development assets and starting from scratch. We could have gone with 3D polygons with that kind of force.
 
I agree with your overall point that Sega's success with Genesis/Mega Drive was ephemeral and that said initial success wasn't channeled to fortify the company instead began a series of headless initiatives to beat the competition without taking in consideration of the profitability or the potential risk faced.
However the 32X was a flat out terrible idea and another symptom of how clueless Sega management really was.
When you are in a transitional phase you don't want to confuse the consumers and developers because your future profits depends heavily on how widely adopted your next-gen platform become thus it is imperative to transition the big userbase on your current platform to the next one.
No this is incorrect based on the 32X's sales performance and the reaction after it was cut short. There wasn't as much confusion as myth implies, there was some but it became looked at mostly that the 32X was an affordable entry system to the premium that was Saturn. The 32X outpaced all other "new" machines and was selling at 3x the rate the Sega CD was and could have reached half it's LTD with a handful more months on the market. People just repeat what they hear, 32X was DOA and everyone was confused and it took resources form....something and it hurt the Saturn and retailers weren't happen.

Except none of that is true, and retailers were unhappy because they cut it off early, why would retailers have much trust in Sega after that? This is just a similar version of Ataris mistake, the difference is that when Atari started pulling products abruptly, they didn't have as many chances as Sega did before the effects became a liability to future products.

Sega of America was fearing the high price of the Saturn wouldn't be welcomed in US therefore tried the add-on strategy to extend the Genesis lifespan however the developers and consumers were aware that the 'real' Sega next-gen console was being released in Japan which made them wary in investing in the 32X.
The initial plan by Sega was that the 32X would last 2-3 years while in the meantime the price of the Saturn would drop off but when 32X missed the forecasts the platform was quickly discontinued.
Nintendo was cancelling completed projects like Starfox 2 to maximize the success of the next-gen iteration while Sega was wastefully dividing their resources by catering to two different 'next-gen' platforms.
In fact Saturn and 32X share the same CPU but the architecture are not the same.

Sega was never good enough to be truly competitive in the home videogame business.
It was just a matter of time before they would exit the console business.

Negative, the 32X was a reaction to the Jaguar, as I mentioned above in the previous post, the idea was to have similarities between the 32X and the Saturn to aid development transition, the 32X likely wouldn't have existed if the Jaguar demos didn't show higher capability than the model 1 arcade machine, which was 1993, the Jaguar demos and a test launch happened later that same year (Sega didn't know about the 3DO until later), extending the life of the Genesis was a side benefit, as making the 32X an add-on would make it accessible to a large base, while still being able to play Genesis titles, instead of a standalone 32X console (which they did plan to do later for some reason).

32X wasn't really dividing resources either, people say this but can't really articulate how. The Saturn actually launched with enough support to get it going but outside of japan, the interest wasn't there, and many devs who weren't killed Sega FP studios were having difficulties for the Saturn, however, several of those devs had 32X games, if anything they could have foster an environment of up ports to the Saturn in the early years.

I also never said the architecture was the same, I said there were similarities, like how the two are set-up for devs, and the whole triple processor thing.

But all of this is irrelevant, Sega was rapidly losing money before the 32X launch was even a factor, and were losing arcade revenue and decided to "fix that" by going all in with no safety net on their Model 3 Idea in 1996, as the expectation was they would be so far ahead, they would have a segment of arcades to themselves and people would spend coins in droves, well that didn't happen, because Midway and Atari put out some big titles, and then later Namco, that while not as impressive and technically advanced, weren't that far off and were still better than pretty much everything else in the arcades.

Add in the fact the wider adoption of PC, which was putting out impressive stuff alone in 1997, and surpassing much of the model 3 in 1998, and Sega itself replacing the Model 3 with the cheaper Noami board which they also dual-purposed into a console, in 1998, by 1999 Model 3 was effectively an incredibly giant waste of money. Also Sega had made a lot of odd purchase decisions they didn't have the capital for god off loan, they couldn't sustain the gamegear, and it's successor was an expensive quick failure.

But all of this was happening when they were already IN the hole. But the hole started in 1994, technically, end of 1993 is when the trend started but the hole was first formed in 1994.

Yes, Sega was not able to be competitive, but the reason is because they never had anything to support that decision, to sustain their strategies, if they had any, to create pillars to hold things up if anything were to go awry, to have a financial safety net available to mitigate bad decisions or underperforming product so they can reinvest. By 1996 Sega was effectively dead, the Dreamcast was quite the odd gamble, because even though they got support to launch it, since they couldn't do it themselves, they never fixed any previous issue that led them to needing assistance in the first place.

So the Dreamcast also had no plan in place, no infrastructure, no financial management, etc.
 
Hideki Sato (one of the key men behind the origins of the Saturn) did an interview some time ago for a Japanese magazine where amongst other things he was very frank about his regrets with the Saturn, to quote one part:

Problem with this is that, while it may have made 3D development better for the Saturn, if they based the Saturn hardware off the Model 1 (which even changed current saturn is notably stronger than) it would have been the weakest 3D console of the 5, 3DO/PSX/N64/JAG would all have better 3D.

Now, if they based it off the model 2. Yes, and that $400 price point would have made more sense to. However it's likely have to be $500 (in the 90's) to break even, so Sega would have to take a loss, but having Model 2 graphics at home may have made up for a lower price with software sales. Assuming Sega didn't screw up the library.
 

RAIDEN1

Member
Problem with this is that, while it may have made 3D development better for the Saturn, if they based the Saturn hardware off the Model 1 (which even changed current saturn is notably stronger than) it would have been the weakest 3D console of the 5, 3DO/PSX/N64/JAG would all have better 3D.

Now, if they based it off the model 2. Yes, and that $400 price point would have made more sense to. However it's likely have to be $500 (in the 90's) to break even, so Sega would have to take a loss, but having Model 2 graphics at home may have made up for a lower price with software sales. Assuming Sega didn't screw up the library.
All this while there was a civil war going on as a whole between SOJ and SOA....which results in a console that was a hastily put together, Project Saturn....(sounded good in 1992...but by 1995...just wasn't in the game..)
 
Problem with this is that, while it may have made 3D development better for the Saturn, if they based the Saturn hardware off the Model 1 (which even changed current saturn is notably stronger than) it would have been the weakest 3D console of the 5, 3DO/PSX/N64/JAG would all have better 3D.

Now, if they based it off the model 2. Yes, and that $400 price point would have made more sense to. However it's likely have to be $500 (in the 90's) to break even, so Sega would have to take a loss, but having Model 2 graphics at home may have made up for a lower price with software sales. Assuming Sega didn't screw up the library.
Model 2 arcade boards cost well over $10,000 didn't they? I don't think they were going to make it into even a $500 console.
 
Model 2 arcade boards cost well over $10,000 didn't they? I don't think they were going to make it into even a $500 console.

The Model 1 was around 7k. Likely 5-6k at the time Model 2 launched. Yet the Saturn they came up with even with the issues was stronger than the model 1.

Unlike a full arcade, you're just taking the technology chipset and putting a console shell around it. Mass producing that for retail drives the price down, Sega before reaction price wise, choose $400 as the break even point for what one could arguably say was a model 1.4 or 1.5. The model 2 is a jump, hence why they would likely have to go $500 with it if they were to choose it as the base for the Saturn, and would not be able to react with a lower price to what Sony did. actually, Sega was in no position to do that even with the current Saturn, that was them stabbing themselves in the foot.
 
All this while there was a civil war going on as a whole between SOJ and SOA....which results in a console that was a hastily put together, Project Saturn....(sounded good in 1992...but by 1995...just wasn't in the game..)

Nah, Saturn was almost all SoJ's mistake. The reactionary changes were all primarily implemented by SoJ with little disregard to developer complaints.

You are right that they were not thinking much ahead or planning long-term in 1992. it's funny how 3Do, some new guy on the block had a better understanding of where things were going than Sega initially. Same with NEC, which thought FMV and clean 2D IQ was the future.
 
I honestly feel like there was a point around the Dreamcast where they were still peaking. But feels like a series of missteps really didn't help their future. Lesser than preferred management, production, development, etc.

I felt like the Saturn was a huge misstep for the US market, though I could be wrong. It felt like it did so much better overseas than it did here. Maybe the PlayStation was just marketed better in the US? I mean, at launch it the Saturn was $399, and the PlayStation was $299, so maybe the price didn't help it much either?

I only had one friend of mine that had a Saturn, I legit didn't know anyone else at the time that did. I guess I could even say the same about the 32X and Sega CD. But I knew a ton of people that had a Genesis. I also knew a ton of people that got a PlayStation.

The saddest part to me, was that the Dreamcast had so much potential, and in my opinion was a spectacular system. It did so many things right, and was honestly pretty innovative in a variety of ways. It had some great exclusives, and even better ports of some games out there. I would've loved to have seen what could've come after that if everything panned out differently.

I don't. I think the Saturn and Dreamcast were both major misfires. It was just so obvious that they missed the boat and didn't see where the industry was going. In a time where people were wanting bigger, more elaborate games that they could really sink their teeth into, Sega was still doing Naomi arcade ports of games that weren't meant to be played longer than 15 minutes. Catastrophic miscalculation.

3D Sonic always blew. And Shen Mue blew too. It was pretty much nothing but failure. 3rd parties made the best DC games. Imagine what shit the launch would have been if it hadn't had Soul Calibur. And to really hammer home just how stupid Sega is/was, think about the fact that they farmed VIRTUA FIGHTER 3 out to some crappy 3rd party and couldn't even manage an arcade perfect port of the game. So you're going to hedge all your bets on the arcade stuff, and then you make a SHIT arcade port of a game on supposedly superior hardware and suck away any confidence that people would have had in the capabilities of the machine. I actually kind of hate Sega. They're just one of the stupidest gaming companies of all time. They could have done SO much better if they had just not had brain damage.

Arcade emulation has demonstrated how fallibly dependent on arcade ports Sega was, too. Now that all those CPS2 and CPS3 games are emulated, giant chunks of the Saturn and DC library are completely obsolete and irrelevant. See, this is something that you have to give pre artistic integrity implosion Nintendo credit for. Nintendo actually made good exclusives. The SNES exclusives still hold up today. Sega always leaned way too heavily on shit arcade ports that were doomed to become obsolete and worthless. Sony and Nintendo won for a reason.
 
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Nah, Saturn was almost all SoJ's mistake. The reactionary changes were all primarily implemented by SoJ with little disregard to developer complaints.

You are right that they were not thinking much ahead or planning long-term in 1992. it's funny how 3Do, some new guy on the block had a better understanding of where things were going than Sega initially. Same with NEC, which thought FMV and clean 2D IQ was the future.

Nah...Trip Hawkins was completely clueless and had absolutely no idea where anything was going. The 3DO was a complete abomination. That dumbass was all in on FMV games. He was a fool.

The 3DO really is a train wreck of a machine. It sucked at literally everything. Was too slow to do 3D games and the hardware was so crummy that it couldn't even do 2D arcade ports well (they couldn't even get a perfect Samurai Shodown 1 port out of that piece of crap).
 
Nah...Trip Hawkins was completely clueless and had absolutely no idea where anything was going. The 3DO was a complete abomination. That dumbass was all in on FMV games. He was a fool.

The 3DO really is a train wreck of a machine. It sucked at literally everything. Was too slow to do 3D games and the hardware was so crummy that it couldn't even do 2D arcade ports well (they couldn't even get a perfect Samurai Shodown 1 port out of that piece of crap).

I mean your biased uneducated opinion is nice and all, but that doesn't actually address anything, this is just a pointless attack. Also FMV is not even 12% of the 3DO's library, possibly not even 10.

The point was the Saturn was focusing to be a 2D machine, and the 3DO was focused on being a 3D machine, both with 1992 as the starting date for development planning.

Dial back the fanboyism.


Two issue.

1. You aren't reading in context

2. VGchartz is as reliable as a dead parrot.

NFL2K SERIES, in fact, just two entries is not only the top selling of the Dreamcast, but the number one reason over time people brought the console. I already posted the reliable NPD figures above, instead of your Vgchartz nonsense.

Read first, react after.
 
I mean your biased uneducated opinion is nice and all, but that doesn't actually address anything, this is just a pointless attack. Also FMV is not even 12% of the 3DO's library, possibly not even 10.

The point was the Saturn was focusing to be a 2D machine, and the 3DO was focused on being a 3D machine, both with 1992 as the starting date for development planning.

Dial back the fanboyism.



Two issue.

1. You aren't reading in context

2. VGchartz is as reliable as a dead parrot.

NFL2K SERIES, in fact, just two entries is not only the top selling of the Dreamcast, but the number one reason over time people brought the console. I already posted the reliable NPD figures above, instead of your Vgchartz nonsense.

Read first, react after.

Actually it's a PhD level opinion from someone who's been playing games since 1977 but good job on being wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about. The 3DO's focus was actually FMV and multimedia NOT 3D. There's a reason most of the games on that piece of crap were FMV trash. It's all it could do. The Saturn was actually MORE focused on 3D than the 3DO was. They intentionally threw more hardware on it to make it more 3D capable. If the Saturn had been focused on 2D as you contend, they wouldn't have bolted on so much extra hardware at the last minute to try to compete with Sony on 3D.

Some shitty NFL game was NOT the top selling game internationally. No one in Japan gave two turds about that game.
 
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SkylineRKR

Member
I don't. I think the Saturn and Dreamcast were both major misfires. It was just so obvious that they missed the boat and didn't see where the industry was going. In a time where people were wanting bigger, more elaborate games that they could really sink their teeth into, Sega was still doing Naomi arcade ports of games that weren't meant to be played longer than 15 minutes. Catastrophic miscalculation.

3D Sonic always blew. And Shen Mue blew too. It was pretty much nothing but failure. 3rd parties made the best DC games. Imagine what shit the launch would have been if it hadn't had Soul Calibur. And to really hammer home just how stupid Sega is/was, think about the fact that they farmed VIRTUA FIGHTER 3 out to some crappy 3rd party and couldn't even manage an arcade perfect port of the game. So you're going to hedge all your bets on the arcade stuff, and then you make a SHIT arcade port of a game on supposedly superior hardware and suck away any confidence that people would have had in the capabilities of the machine. I actually kind of hate Sega. They're just one of the stupidest gaming companies of all time. They could have done SO much better if they had just not had brain damage.

Arcade emulation has demonstrated how fallibly dependent on arcade ports Sega was, too. Now that all those CPS2 and CPS3 games are emulated, giant chunks of the Saturn and DC library are completely obsolete and irrelevant. See, this is something that you have to give pre artistic integrity implosion Nintendo credit for. Nintendo actually made good exclusives. The SNES exclusives still hold up today. Sega always leaned way too heavily on shit arcade ports that were doomed to become obsolete and worthless. Sony and Nintendo won for a reason.

If you said Sega Rally 2 I would agree. VF3 was a decent port, looks and plays a lot like the coin op. And DC wasn't Model 3 to begin with, it had a completely different architecture. Should they have done it in-house? Yea, but for some reason they opted not to. Perhaps because the game was kinda old when DC released. At least we got it. But I think its a better port than VF1 and even VF2 on Saturn, though VF2 was downported from much more powerful hardware. Its also a better port than VF4 on PS2. In fact, VF3 might be the closest port of all until VF5 happened.

But SR2, being at 30fps (or a bad fluctuating unlocked one in the JP version) with barely any details etc, was a huge disappointment. SR2 was big in the arcade, it was the number one game I wanted at the time.
 
I mean your biased uneducated opinion is nice and all, but that doesn't actually address anything, this is just a pointless attack. Also FMV is not even 12% of the 3DO's library, possibly not even 10.

The point was the Saturn was focusing to be a 2D machine, and the 3DO was focused on being a 3D machine, both with 1992 as the starting date for development planning.

Dial back the fanboyism.



Two issue.

1. You aren't reading in context

2. VGchartz is as reliable as a dead parrot.

NFL2K SERIES, in fact, just two entries is not only the top selling of the Dreamcast, but the number one reason over time people brought the console. I already posted the reliable NPD figures above, instead of your Vgchartz nonsense.

Read first, react after.

Awwww, what's that, Timmy? Your so called NPD figures. Sonic was #1 there too. Not that I believe any of these, though, and I'm not particularly interested in American taste because it tends to be so heavily skewed towards sports dog shit.

 
If you said Sega Rally 2 I would agree. VF3 was a decent port, looks and plays a lot like the coin op. And DC wasn't Model 3 to begin with, it had a completely different architecture. Should they have done it in-house? Yea, but for some reason they opted not to. Perhaps because the game was kinda old when DC released. At least we got it. But I think its a better port than VF1 and even VF2 on Saturn, though VF2 was downported from much more powerful hardware. Its also a better port than VF4 on PS2. In fact, VF3 might be the closest port of all until VF5 happened.

But SR2, being at 30fps (or a bad fluctuating unlocked one in the JP version) with barely any details etc, was a huge disappointment. SR2 was big in the arcade, it was the number one game I wanted at the time.

That's the story of Sega's life: "for some reason." No one can make rhyme or reason of anything they did because everything they did was stupid. The point is that, had they actually put effort into it, the DC VF3 could have been better than the arcade version, so it's a travesty that it wasn't. Think about it. 3 years after the arcade release. I'd say that it'd almost be as embarrassing as not releasing an arcade perfect version of Street Fighter 2 three years after its release, but the video game industry is such a festering piece of shit, that actually happened.
 
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