Support NeoGAF

[Bo_Hazem]

Seems like ARM is getting more and more AAA games, so maybe in the next few years Apple macs won't be just for mainstream games like Fortnite, Genshin, etc. With the upcoming 3nm M3 chip things will get very interesting as they can cramp in more CPU/GPU cores with much higher improvements over M2, which has 20% boost in CPU and 30% boost in GPU over M1.

Despite I don't care about gaming outside PS5, this is still an interesting phenomena and I think Google might man-up and bring up something comparable. nVidia is already into ARM:

Introducing Grace

A CPU Purpose-Built for Servers Running Terabytes of Data

www.nvidia.com

Maybe the x86 era is coming into an end.

 

[Fahdis]

Mac Gaming is trash unless they have native support for games which are far and few between. Software Emulation is very impressive though with Rosetta/Metal (like Mac could have really impressed gamers if M1 featured gaming native features on launch).

I have a M1 Mac Mini hooked to my TV and have to go through Parallels to have any decent functionality to run even Steam. Some games run flawlessly from 2 gens ago... some don't even load. Looking forward to Grace though. Fucking nVidia innovating with Cloud and ARM even though its the greediest of the bunch.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Mac Gaming is trash unless they have native support for games which are far and few between. Software Emulation is very impressive though with Rosetta/Metal (like Mac could have really impressed gamers if M1 featured gaming native on launch). I have a M1 Mac Mini hooked to my TV and have to go through Parallels to have any decent functionality to run even Steam. Some games run flawlessly from 2 gens ago... sone don't even load. Looking forward to Grace though.

Yup, it's still in its infancy and it all dependant on devs/studios opting to release on Apple silicon like Resident Evil Village.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Lol what an awful thumbnail on that vid.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Lol what an awful thumbnail on that vid.

Yeah then all of them are just 1080p. Such clickbaity thumbnails are outdated but the guys seems like not catching up with the trend as clickbaits are getting more subtle now.

 

[kikkis]

We dont really have 5nm x86 cpus optimized for power consumption instead of performance.

 

[Fahdis]

Yup, it's still in its infancy and it all dependant on devs/studios opting to release on Apple silicon like Resident Evil Village.

Either way, I agree that ARM and Silicone are the future. I wouldn't be surprised if our gaming is mostly relegated on small form factor machines like Mac Mini or NUC or your Phone even in the next decade. Power draw on these things are amazing as well.

 

[Ozriel]

Seems like ARM is getting more and more AAA games, so maybe in the next few years Apple macs won't be just for mainstream games like Fortnite, Genshin, etc. With the upcoming 3nm M3 chip things will get very interesting as they can cramp in more CPU/GPU cores with much higher improvement over M2, which has 20% boost in CPU and 30% boost in GPU over M1.

Despite I don't care about gaming outside PS5, this is still an interesting phenomena and I think Google might man-up and bring up something comparable. nVidia is already into ARM:

http://[URL]https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/grace-cpu/

[/URL]


Maybe the x86 era is coming into an end.

The price tags on the Pro and Max models are daunting enough to guarantee x86 will remain popular for quite a while to come.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The price tags on the Pro and Max models are daunting enough to guarantee x86 will remain popular for quite a while to come.

When looking at the Mac mini M2 Pro it starts at $1300 which isn't really bad, but would say the $2200 specced Mac Mini M2 Pro is the better version of it. The M1 Max Mac Studio starts at $2000 but it's lesser than the specced up Mac Mini M2 Pro so you need to push for $200 to get the 35-core GPU instead of 24-core, which is still an equivalent of 22.4-core vs 19-core on the mini so upgrading to M2 Max is a necessity.

This only helps people who have gaming as a side dish. If gaming on PC is your main goal then yes x86 will remain popular for the next 7-10 years at least.

 

[Drew1440]

Looks good, but x86 will still be dominant towards the current decade at least.

Mac Gaming is trash unless they have native support for games which are far and few between. Software Emulation is very impressive though with Rosetta/Metal (like Mac could have really impressed gamers if M1 featured gaming native features on launch).

I have a M1 Mac Mini hooked to my TV and have to go through Parallels to have any decent functionality to run even Steam. Some games run flawlessly from 2 gens ago... some don't even load. Looking forward to Grace though. Fucking nVidia innovating with Cloud and ARM even though its the greediest of the bunch.

OS X is poor for software compatability, to the point where you have to multiboot different versions of OS X to ensure your games still work. I still don't get why they removed 32bit app support in Catalina.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Looks good, but x86 will still be dominant towards the current decade at least.


OS X is poor for software compatability, to the point where you have to multiboot different versions of OS X to ensure your games still work. I still don't get why they removed 32bit app support in Catalina.

Yup, expecting it to be dominant for another decade is a reasonable guess. x86 might get another breath of life if the prices between x86 vs ARM are big in its favor, but if it's the opposite then its end will come faster when power-to-dollar ratio is better on ARM.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Nice to have as an extra if you're buying the machine anyway, but I assume that Mac doesn't have enough market share (less than 10%) to warrant developers doing the work to get the best out of it, let alone taking into account how many Mac owners want games.

Obviously, PC is so much cheaper too. And given that price is often the barrier to getting into PC gaming for people, I don't see this being a big deal unless Apple themselves really get behind it to make it an excellent experience.

 

[TrebleShot]

ARM is the future and to be honest a welcome one.
Its 2023 and people are still building large tower based PCs.

I have a pretty great set up with a 4090 in a meshlicious case but ill be honest its loud and not exactly as compact as Id expect computing in this era.

I can not wait until we have mac studio type devices with the power of 4090 type gaming systems.

 

[Thebonehead]

It's an interesting future.

Both Intel and Microsoft poached the lead architects / engineers from the M chip team a couple of years ago, primarily to develop chips for datacentre applications, but as we see there is crossover potential.

I can have my teams compile all their existing code onto an arm target and deploy as containers internally or hosted in cloud on infrastructure that is more cost efficient in terms of initial cost; density; cooling etc saving money, which let's face it is the main driver these days.

 

[jufonuk]

Either way, I agree that ARM and Silicone are the future. I wouldn't be surprised if our gaming is mostly relegated on small form factor machines like Mac Mini or NUC or your Phone even in the next decade. Power draw on these things are amazing as well.

So like the switch? Nintendo really should just do a deal with apple to use the M chips the beast of a system that would come from it.

I have the M1 air. My wife bought it for me. To be honest when I was just having a look at how it can render out video and how quickly it is fast for its size. Really like the size and speed of it plus battery life is great.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

ARM is the future and to be honest a welcome one.
Its 2023 and people are still building large tower based PCs.

I have a pretty great set up with a 4090 in a meshlicious case but ill be honest its loud and not exactly as compact as Id expect computing in this era.

I can not wait until we have mac studio type devices with the power of 4090 type gaming systems.

Yeah that's a great build! I have a large PC that is aging like milk for video editing with Radeon VII that can still manage H.265 4K videos but not as I would like it be due to lacking H.265 hardware acceleration. Also I travel sometimes 1200km away from my hometown and it's unrealistic to carry the PC with me nor I like laptops that tend to be fragile in their nature. Mac mini M2 Pro or even better Mac Studio M2 Max are wonderful video editing machines that are extremely portable.

It's an interesting future.

Both Intel and Microsoft poached the lead architects / engineers from the M chip team a couple of years ago, primarily to develop chips for datacentre applications, but as we see there is crossover potential.

I can have my teams compile all their existing code onto an arm target and deploy as containers internally or hosted in cloud on infrastructure that is more cost efficient in terms of initial cost; density; cooling etc saving money, which let's face it is the main driver these days.

Interesting input! Anything that can save money nowadays is a good thing, as we might suddenly find regulators banning top end cards for being sloppy in that regard.

 

[Badlucktroll]

I feel that apple could increase mac sales if they took pc gaming seriously, courted and bought developers, and someohow made it a better alternative to pc gaming

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I feel that apple could increase mac sales if they took pc gaming seriously, courted and bought developers, and someohow made it a better alternative to pc gaming

They're leaving so much money on the table. Many hybrid video editors who like gaming on PC opt for traditional PC's, others have consoles + Macs. Sony should be smart and start porting their games that are on Windows to MacOS as well.

 

[Thebonehead]

Interesting input! Anything that can save money nowadays is a good thing, as we might suddenly find regulators banning top end cards for being sloppy in that regard.

Near enough 30 percent cheaper for us on Azure than using an equivalent x86 instance

 

[Badlucktroll]

They're leaving so much money on the table. Many hybrid video editors who like gaming on PC opt for traditional PC's, others have consoles + Macs. Sony should be smart and start porting their games that are on Windows to MacOS as well.

They should also make some crazy reverse engineered seamless windows emulator so all pc games just “work”

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Near enough 30 percent cheaper for us on Azure than using an equivalent x86 instance

AFAIK having less power consumption means less prone to failure as well! Having ARM computers should make optimization even better, I guess. Microsoft already has Windows on ARM but problem is only Apple is making ARM computers that are worth getting over traditional PC's. Maybe nVidia, AMD, Qualcomm are cooking something in the meanwhile.

Qualcomm's 12-core custom silicon reportedly competes with Apple M2

A recent report suggests that Qualcomm is working on a 12-core processor based on Nuvia technology, with support for discrete GPUs.

www.xda-developers.com

Seems like it's only competing on a CPU level only so far.

 

[KungFucius]

Apple gaming is pathetic. It is for people who are fanatically obsessed with Apple and overpay for hardware that isn't fully open or capable. Apple doesn't care that you have an overpriced computer that has no games, they just want you to overpay for the ability to display their glowing logo on the back of their laptops.

 

[Fahdis]

I know most of you won't like this but even though Silicone and ARM are the future on Hardware level, enterprise level cards on the Cloud will be even more cost effective based on them in the future and likely will outpace buying hardware when internet become viable for many because it will be affordable.

 

[Spukc]

Yup, it's still in its infancy and it all dependant on devs/studios opting to release on Apple silicon like Resident Evil Village.

I already own this game on steam.
Having to rebuy the macbook version
Is stupid as fuck.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

I already own this game on steam.
Having to rebuy the macbook version
Is stupid as fuck.

I think it's exclusive to the Apple App store on mac - Apple want their cut.

 

[Freeza93]

These chips efficiency is insane. Imagine Nvidias gaming chip if the deal would have went through......

 

[Mattyp]

Apple gaming is pathetic. It is for people who are fanatically obsessed with Apple and overpay for hardware that isn't fully open or capable. Apple doesn't care that you have an overpriced computer that has no games, they just want you to overpay for the ability to display their glowing logo on the back of their laptops.

You’re an idiot, gaming isn’t the idea of Apple and not why people purchase them. Look at video processing times, and export they blow everything out of the water. Even gaming through virtual machine now they’re managing just fine for those weirdos who play games on laptops.

The M2 Pro chips are actually fucking insane, you have single core speeds the same as a i9 12900, multicore speeds the same as a 3960x threadripper. All while being a cm thin with display and lasting 20 hours on a charge and this is only their second gen. They have the best chip engineers in the business at the point right now.

If I could get one of these and they put boot camp on it I would be all over it, my Carbon X1 even being the best of PC laptops in its class is absolute crud bucket in comparison and sick of the absolute turd battery life of real world use being 6-8 hours.

If people can’t see ARM is the future I feel sorry for them.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Arm might be the future, but an Apple product would just be another walled garden. Might as well just buy a console for gaming, because you’d be giving up your freedom regardless.

 

[fran.fernandez]

Can’t turn on Nanite and Lumen , raytracing for unreal development so…. For now skip

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I already own this game on steam.
Having to rebuy the macbook version
Is stupid as fuck.

Why do you even expect a crossbuy between Windows and MacOS?

You’re an idiot, gaming isn’t the idea of Apple and not why people purchase them. Look at video processing times, and export they blow everything out of the water. Even gaming through virtual machine now they’re managing just fine for those weirdos who play games on laptops.

The M2 Pro chips are actually fucking insane, you have single core speeds the same as a i9 12900, multicore speeds the same as a 3960x threadripper. All while being a cm thin with display and lasting 20 hours on a charge and this is only their second gen. They have the best chip engineers in the business at the point right now.

If I could get one of these and they put boot camp on it I would be all over it, my Carbon X1 even being the best of PC laptops in its class is absolute crud bucket in comparison and sick of the absolute turd battery life of real world use being 6-8 hours.

If people can’t see ARM is the future I feel sorry for them.

Yup, the form factor alone is the most brilliant thing about them. Planning for Mac Mini M2 Pro/Mac Studio M2 Max later as a portable desktop for video editing and general use. I'll keep playing on PS5.

Arm might be the future, but an Apple product would just be another walled garden. Might as well just buy a console for gaming, because you’d be giving up your freedom regardless.

Could be. Maybe Google, MS will come up with their proper version soon with the help of AMD/nVidia/Qualcomm.

Can’t turn on Nanite and Lumen , raytracing for unreal development so…. For now skip

For 3D graphics traditional PC's are just still way ahead.

 

[RoboFu]

The m2 chips fixed the memory bandwidth issue that was holding the m1 back from its true potential.
Idk about gaming as it will take time for apple user base to fill out with apple silicon chips but another thing you guys have to remember is these same chips .. will be/are all already .. in Apple TV, iPads, and iPhones . It’s the very reason apple demands developers to use its METAL apis. Apple is setting itself up for a “computer/ gaming across all devices “ future.
It will be even more apparent when wifi 7 is standard and can deliver 40gbps which means everyone’s new phones and tablets could potentially be a easy to use switch like console just by pairing a Bluetooth controller and casting to WiFi 7 ready tv.

 

[Spukc]

Why do you even expect a crossbuy between Windows and MacOS?

Yup, the form factor alone is the most brilliant thing about them. Planning for Mac Mini M2 Pro/Mac Studio M2 Max later as a portable desktop for video editing and general use. I'll keep playing on PS5.



Could be. Maybe Google, MS will come up with their proper version soon with the help of AMD/nVidia/Qualcomm.



For 3D graphics traditional PC's are just still way ahead.

Errr all my other steam games do this

 

[calistan]

I think it's exclusive to the Apple App store on mac - Apple want their cut.

Yeah, that's sadly pretty standard. I have loads of games on one platform that I'd much rather play on another.

I'm really tempted by the new Macbook Pro. My existing Macbook is a 2009 model with a swollen battery that won't take a charge. Bumping up the storage capacity really inflates the price, though.

Errr all my other steam games do this

Isn't this one on Apple's store for Mac? It would be like expecting something from the Epic or Microsoft stores to also be available to you on Steam.


edit: bastards!

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Errr all my other steam games do this

It's a native app on apple store though, not steam:

‎Rise of the Tomb Raider™

‎Discover the legend within. Before you buy, please expand this description and check that your computer matches or exceeds each of the requirements listed. In the breathtaking sequel to Tomb Raider, Lara Croft becomes more than a survivor as she embarks upon her first great expedition to...

apps.apple.com

 

[Spukc]

It's a native app on apple store though, not steam:

‎Rise of the Tomb Raider™

‎Discover the legend within. Before you buy, please expand this description and check that your computer matches or exceeds each of the requirements listed. In the breathtaking sequel to Tomb Raider, Lara Croft becomes more than a survivor as she embarks upon her first great expedition to...

apps.apple.com

Aye.
Now imagine all linux games also doing this. Kinda lame imo.

Metro exodus is 100% apple silicon mac compatible.
And the mac version was just updated in the steam store

 

[UnNamed]

Gaming on Mac has no future. In fact, it has no past as well.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Aye.
Now imagine all linux games also doing this. Kinda lame imo.

Metro exodus is 100% apple silicon mac compatible.
And the mac version was just updated in the steam store

Yeah if anything I think Sony should aim for that pie. They just need to expand their Nixxes studio to work on ARM/Apple silicon ports, especially their upcoming live-service games. Also games are less prone to piracy on Apple platforms if native.

Gaming on Mac has no future. In fact, it has no past as well.

 

[RoboFu]

Gaming on Mac has no future. In fact, it has no past as well.

Over 60% of the gaming market is mobile devices.
58% of that revenue was on iOS.

Apples new chips and apis puts the same games on all its devices.

?

Profit

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Gaming on mac

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

**I know this is a gaming thread...so "BOO THIS MAN" all you need to...but from a hardware and price perspective apple deserves some credit here for quality engineering AND not boning their customer base**

Hyperbole and PCMR crap aside the new mac mini is insanely priced and insanely powerful. Even with the base model (even considering its low storage capabilities) if you want/need to use a Mac for school or work situations you cannot go wrong with this piece of hardware. How often does apple release hardware with better specs that is priced LOWER than their previous iterations?

This isn't a "let them eat cake" situation, the hardware configs on the new mac minis are actually fantastic for real work flows.

MKBHD released a great review yesterday and its worth a watch if you want some practical examples of the hardware's evolution.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

Mac aren't for gaming. But how they are made is the future of computers.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

**I know this is a gaming thread...so "BOO THIS MAN" all you need to...but from a hardware and price perspective apple deserves some credit here for quality engineering AND not boning their customer base**

Hyperbole and PCMR crap aside the new mac mini is insanely priced and insanely powerful. Even with the base model (even considering its low storage capabilities) if you want/need to use a Mac for school or work situations you cannot go wrong with this piece of hardware. How often does apple release hardware with better specs that is priced LOWER than their previous iterations?

This isn't a "let them eat cake" situation, the hardware configs on the new mac minis are actually fantastic for real work flows.

MKBHD released a great review yesterday and its worth a watch if you want some practical examples of the hardware's evolution.

I'm actually watching it now! I don't game on my gaming PC nor gonna if I get a Mac. I'll stick to PS5 as I would avoid wearing out the TBW on my computer's SSD's, nor PC gaming is my thing anyway as I don't play as much as I used to anyway.

 

[Buggy Loop]

I remember a discussion around M1 from experts saying that it’s not x86 the problem, they can do most the same improvements on the CPU die itself and keep the x86 platform, which I guess we’ll see soon enough in coming years.

 

[UnNamed]

Gaming aside, at least this time M2 is not bad at 729€, this means you can find it at a lower price around 600/650€.

 

[ReBurn]

These chips efficiency is insane. Imagine Nvidias gaming chip if the deal would have went through......

Chances are their chip would be exactly what it is now. Nvidia can license ARM and improve their efficiency without owning the company just like literally every other company that builds based on ARM.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Yeah, that's sadly pretty standard. I have loads of games on one platform that I'd much rather play on another.

I'm really tempted by the new Macbook Pro. My existing Macbook is a 2009 model with a swollen battery that won't take a charge. Bumping up the storage capacity really inflates the price, though.


Isn't this one on Apple's store for Mac? It would be like expecting something from the Epic or Microsoft stores to also be available to you on Steam.


edit: bastards!

I wouldn't suggest more than 1TB, which is mostly an overkill for native apps, and use external NVMe m.2 enclosure with 4TB. Don't wanna get your data stuck there if things go wrong.

Actually planning to get the 4TB Nextorage NVMe m.2 SSD that has 3,000TBW rating!!

And a waterproof/shockproof enclosure that is sadly only 10Gbps until a newer version comes from Sabrent with USB/Thunderbolt 40Gbps. It's only $60 anyway:

Amazon.com: SABRENT USB 3.2 Rugged Waterproof Enclosure [IP67] for M.2 NVMe SSDs (EC-WPNE) : Electronics

Shop Amazon for SABRENT USB 3.2 Rugged Waterproof Enclosure [IP67] for M.2 NVMe SSDs (EC-WPNE) and find millions of items, delivered faster than ever.

www.amazon.com

There are other enclosures that can support up to 2.8GB/s with USB4/thunderbolt 3/4 but the waterproof alone is worth the sacrifice. They'll 100% bring a newer version soon.

So it's forward compatible when USB5/Thunderbolt 5 comes where you can fully support the full 7.3GB/s speed which should be supported with USB4/thunderbolt but not sure why it caps at 3GB/s.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

I'm really tempted by the new Macbook Pro. My existing Macbook is a 2009 model with a swollen battery that won't take a charge. Bumping up the storage capacity really inflates the price, though.

Yeah, I got an M1 Max last year and just couldn't bear to spend on the extra storage, that's a legitimate issue for gaming too, where are you going to store these games? To be fair the Apple internal storage is very quick, no idea how it stacks up, but I've seen people say it's faster than other storage.

Fwiw, I had a Mac of a similar vintage to yours and occasionally have to use it now, the new machines, as you would expect are a significant jump forward. If you've been waiting for a significant enough jump (I was) then I'd say now meets that criteria.

 

[RoboFu]

I remember a discussion around M1 from experts saying that it’s not x86 the problem, they can do most the same improvements on the CPU die itself and keep the x86 platform, which I guess we’ll see soon enough in coming years.

Intel is already going that way by adding efficiency cores but the overall power draw is still a problem .

 

[SomeGit]

The few native games I’ve tried on my M1 Pro MacBook Pro have impressed me. Sadly compatibility’s awful.

 

[RoboFu]

Yeah, I got an M1 Max last year and just couldn't bear to spend on the extra storage, that's a legitimate issue for gaming too, where are you going to store these games? To be fair the Apple internal storage is very quick, no idea how it stacks up, but I've seen people say it's faster than other storage.

Fwiw, I had a Mac of a similar vintage to yours and occasionally have to use it now, the new machines, as you would expect are a significant jump forward. If you've been waiting for a significant enough jump (I was) then I'd say now meets that criteria.

I got a $120 usb4/thunderbolt3 external m.2 encloser and put a 1tb pcie 4 m.2 in it. It runs faster than internal drive.
Then just copy your desktop to the drive.