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[GarthVaderUK]

The Entertainment & Devices Division at MS has been around for years now:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/sep05/09-20ExecChangesPR.mspx

We don't know how much the Xbox platform has made or lost for MS when the Entertainment and Devices Division numbers have covered more than just Xbox over the years (Zune, Courier, Windows Phone, Surface, Mediaroom etc).

 

[bigtroyjon]

The Entertainment & Devices Division at MS has been around since 2005:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/sep05/09-20ExecChangesPR.mspx

We don't know how much the Xbox platform has made or lost for MS when the Entertainment and Devices Division numbers have covered more than just Xbox over the years (Zune, Courier, Windows Phone, Surface, Mediaroom etc).

We have gotten enough info on the 360 platform revenue to know that it is almost all the revenue for the division. 360 profit being equal to or greater than the division profit is a safe assumption to make.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Nope, not true.

I wanted to show the BIG decline on the graph, when the 360 was released (2005, the decline of that year compared to the previous can only be explained by the release of the 360); I've already said that they've been earning money from 2008 on-wards, no point discussing that.

What I'm saying is that in this generation, overall, they've lost money, it's not been a profitable generation for MSFT. They've been reporting earnings of a third of half billion dollars, and that doesn't recover the damage of more than 3 billions early this generation.

Even if it was profitable for them (which isn't), it isn't a big business, the numbers pale in comparison to MSFT's other divisions and are laughable compared to numbers from Nintendo.

There's a better graph somewhere but I just can't find it...

So i guess you've seen the up to date numbers.....

I've been trying to search it all morning, but haven't found it.

Oh. You really think you should be talking in such certainties when the only numbers you've seen are almost 3 years old? Since then the the games division has been bringing in a shitload of money. Last i saw i think MS is actually getting very close to if not already profitable for this gen and the next few years are looking to be just as good.

It should be noted that this is the last accurate chart, because after this, Sony and MSFT put their gaming divisions with other divisions, so new numbers are not that conclusive.

The other things that have been chucked in the gaming division with the xbox have generally performed really poorly. If anything the gaming division has probably performed better than recent numbers suggest.

 

[Marco1]

We have gotten enough info on the 360 platform revenue to know that it is almost all the revenue for the division. 360 profit being equal to or greater than the division profit is a safe assumption to make.

Exactly and a sure sign that for MS the xbox isn't going anywhere soon. Why kill off the main earner for a division?

 

[dreamcastmaster]

Dave Perry is one of the major players at Gaikai, There could be more to this than "who are Gaikai?"

 

[SomeDude]

How much does Sony and Microsoft make for each 3rd party game sold? thanks

 

[EvetS]

Maybe if the prediction said to bow out of the console unveiling race at this E3, I'd have believed it.

 

[sublimit]

Didn't Naughty Dog pretty much confirmed some time ago that they already had PS4 devkits when they were talking about generational leaps?

I call this rumour BS.

 

[manueldelalas]

So i guess you've seen the up to date numbers.....



Oh. You really think you should be talking in such certainties when the only numbers you've seen are almost 3 years old? Since then the the games division has been bringing in a shitload of money. Last i saw i think MS is actually getting very close to if not already profitable for this gen and the next few years are looking to be just as good.



The other things that have been chucked in the gaming division with the xbox have generally performed really poorly. If anything the gaming division has probably performed better than recent numbers suggest.

No, I said that I haven't found the recent chart, the numbers are in the earnings thread.

 

[Globox_82]

I "love" how no one is even reading, that it is a PREDICTION, not even a "rumor!

So here it goes.

It's a PREDICTION, PREDICTION, PREDICTION, PREDICTION, PREDICTION, PREDICTION!

 

[bobbytkc]

I find it funny that people seem to think Sony is bowing out of the console race, while right on the same page, we have a thread about sony's chief technical officer discussing the long term gaming roadmap.

 

[sublimit]

I "love" how no one is even reading, that it is a PREDICTION, not even a "rumor!

So here it goes.

It's a PREDICTION, PREDICTION, PREDICTION, PREDICTION, PREDICTION, PREDICTION!

Ok then.This prediction is BS.

 

[GarthVaderUK]

This prediction is worse than Pachter's.

 

[Gunmonkey36]

I would welcome it with open arms. If either MS or Sony bowed out everyone would benefit. Especially if the studio that bowed out started third party development.

 

[Joni]

It wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft were to "bow" out. They would have most to win with a media-player-streaming box that did games and never needed to be replaced. They would still announce something, but it would be some integrated solution that didn't need any HW updates.

For them it would be a more logical evolution, but it would probably end up with Gaikai out of business.

 

[mrklaw]

what are online connectivity numbers like for current consoles? I bet less than half of 360s or PS3s are even connected to the internet. You'd lose too much addressable market going in this direction right now. next-next-gen maybe, or as an alternative to a box at a cheaper price.

 

[bobbytkc]

Maybe if the prediction said to bow out of the console unveiling race at this E3, I'd have believed it.

well, that wouldn't even be worth declaring. Sony just flat out denied that there are plans for an announcement this e3.

 

[Basileus777]

If Sony was going to do something like this you'd have seen them cutting back on their 1st party developers. Instead they've been expanding. This sounds pretty implausible to me.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Didn't Naughty Dog pretty much confirmed some time ago that they already had PS4 devkits when they were talking about generational leaps?

I call this rumour BS.

How about this: Sony delays the PS4 for 2/3 years. Splits development from 1st parties between 1 PS3 project and 1 PS4 project, this also gives them time to prep the development tools for the next console. Focuses on the Vita and maybe interactions between PS3 and Vita.

It's not like WiiU will smoke them processing wise at least maybe not much at the beginning for customers to notice.

 

[Row]

MS and Sony don't even make consoles, they make "multimedia hubs"

 

[manueldelalas]

MS and Sony don't even make consoles, they make "multimedia hubs"

So true.

 

[Harlock]

Now Sony needs show the PS4, otherwise the bad rumors will spread.

 

[Social]

If Sony manages to create another handheld after a pretty bad first one, they can manage to create another console after a pretty mediocre one.

So Playstation 4 is a given

 

[herzogzwei1989]

pure bullshit.


I'm sure there will be a PS4 console. The question is just, when? 2012?-I highly doubt it.
2013?-Probably. 2014?-At the latest.

 

[kurtrussell]

Hmmm...

If Sony were to delay the PS(4?) launch by a few years, then would you have the situation of the PS3 being the development platform of choice for multi-platform games, with ports to both Wii U and the next gen Xbox?

It wouldn't make economic sense to develop for the next gen Xbox and then have to significantly nerf the title for other platforms, especially if it had a fraction of the install base of PS3 + Wii U

I wonder if Sony would be brave enough to postpone the launch for 24 more months?

 

[bigtroyjon]

Just because, here is some profit info on the 360. Starting with the 2006 FY which starts July 1, 2005 so it should include all 360 sales. Numbers are in billions and are taken from each years final data for the EDD division.

2006FY= -1.262
2007FY= -1.892
2008FY= +0.426
2009FY= +0.169
2010FY= +0.679
2011FY= +1.324
2012FY= +0.352(only 1 quarter so far)

Grand Total is negative $204 million, the reason why I say the division is profitable is because the recently completed holiday quarter that we will find out about next week will easily surpass that amount, last year's holiday quarter was $679 million profit for reference.

Note, this doesn't include the fact that many losing products are in this division, so it's likely the 360 was profitable a while back. (500 million spent on the Kin anyone?)

 

[Noisepurge]

well, that wouldn't even be worth declaring. Sony just flat out denied that there are plans for an announcement this e3.

but didnt they do that last year with the Vita too? trying to keep things under wraps this time.

MS and Sony don't even make consoles, they make "multimedia hubs"

and this is why that Xbox Tablet might make this rumor true, they are not making a console at all if they can resolve the issue of limited horsepower from an ARM and Power VR chips...

 

[subversus]

I think MS will make a powerful tablet with sticks which won't be a strictly console but will play games. The best decision.

 

[Averon]

Hmmm...

If Sony were to delay the PS(4?) launch by a few years, then would you have the situation of the PS3 being the development platform of choice for multi-platform games, with ports to both Wii U and the next gen Xbox?

It wouldn't make economic sense to develop for the next gen Xbox and then have to significantly nerf the title for other platforms, especially if it had a fraction of the install base of PS3 + Wii U

I wonder if Sony would be brave enough to postpone the launch for 24 more months?

That's not bravery; it's stupidity. Sony coming two years after the Wii U and 720 would be disastrous for them. Look how being only one year late on MS screwed them. And you're asking them to be two years late? Sony might as well skip the next generation if they go that route.

At most, I'm expecting Sony to be 6 months behind, if not launching at the same time with MS.

 

[Noisepurge]

That's not bravery; it's stupidity. Sony coming two years after the Wii U and 720 would be disastrous for them. Look how being only one year late on MS screwed them. And you're asking them to be two years late? Sony might as well skip the next generation if they go that route.

At most, I'm expecting Sony to be 6 months behind, if not launching at the same time with MS.

but see if they postpone it long enough they could one-up the 720 with a sort of playstation 4.5 -level hardware.

 

[KageMaru]

Do Sony really need a PS4? Really? They're never going to win the battle for the living room, so why not just bow out now gracefully?

WTF? They have as good of a chance to win the living room as MS or Ninty. It's because of Sony's strong brand name that they were able to hold out earlier this gen. I highly doubt MS would be in the same position as Sony if they faced the same issues.

What I'm saying is that in this generation, overall, they've lost money, it's not been a profitable generation for MSFT. They've been reporting earnings of a third of half billion dollars, and that doesn't recover the damage of more than 3 billions early this generation.

Why focus on only one company when both MS and Sony have lost billions this gen? Having such a lop-sided argument does little to support your point.

Even if it was profitable for them (which isn't), it isn't a big business, the numbers pale in comparison to MSFT's other divisions and are laughable compared to numbers from Nintendo.

It's true that E&D division pales in comparison to other divisions, but it's also the division with the most growth potential. This is why MS is investing in it, they know they can't rest on their OS, Office, and server business alone.

MS on the other end...could stay in the business...but shifting it's perspective to an "XBOX service" for Windows 8 tablets/Topboxes/PC with accessories to get along to enhance the gaming orientation (Kinect 2, gamepads etc...).

How is that any different than what Sony announced at CES?

Sony execs, including CEO Sir Howard Stringer and consumer products head and former PlayStation boss Kaz Hirai, explained how the Sony Entertainment Network will serve as the backbone of Sony’s wide array of consumer entertainment devices, from TVs to PlayStation hardware to new tablets and smartphones.

How much does Sony and Microsoft make for each 3rd party game sold? thanks

Royalty rates for MS and Sony were $7 last gen IIRC, not sure about this gen though.

 

[GarthVaderUK]

but see if they postpone it long enough they could one-up the 720 with a sort of playstation 4.5 -level hardware.

If they did decide to release 2 years after Nextbox, they'd risk MS building up a sizable userbase and Xbox gaining more momentum, with developers focusing on Nextbox games. PS4 could then be facing a huge uphill struggle for marketshare and the majority of games wouldn't be made to fully take advantage of the more powerful hardware anyway. Sounds like a bad idea to me!

 

[Phonomezer]

Just because, here is some profit info on the 360. Starting with the 2006 FY which starts July 1, 2005 so it should include all 360 sales. Numbers are in billions and are taken from each years final data for the EDD division.

2006FY= -1.262
2007FY= -1.892
2008FY= +0.426
2009FY= +0.169
2010FY= +0.679
2011FY= +1.324
2012FY= +0.352(only 1 quarter so far)

Grand Total is negative $204 million, the reason why I say the division is profitable is because the recently completed holiday quarter that we will find out about next week will easily surpass that amount, last year's holiday quarter was $679 million profit for reference.

Note, this doesn't include the fact that many losing products are in this division, so it's likely the 360 was profitable a while back. (500 million spent on the Kin anyone?)

Probably reaching for the stars here, but do these numbers take Kinect into account?

 

[Noisepurge]

If they did decide to release 2 years after Nextbox, they'd risk MS building up a sizable userbase and Xbox gaining more momentum, with developers focusing on Nextbox games. PS4 could then be facing a huge uphill struggle for marketshare and the majority of games wouldn't be made to fully take advantage of the more powerful hardware anyway. Sounds like a bad idea to me!

oh yeah, that is true

 

[Averon]

but see if they postpone it long enough they could one-up the 720 with a sort of playstation 4.5 -level hardware.

The power advantage they get would not be worth it. If the PS4 comes out 2 years after the 720, Sony would have to deal with a MS that has an insurmountable marketshare and mindshare advantage. All 3rd party games would be designed for the 720 first and foremost, resulting in the PS4 versions not taking advantage of that extra power. You would also have to deal with sloppy ports, something the PS3 still suffers from (though not nearly as much as it use to) now and again (Skyrim!!). MS will also most assuredly have a price advantage, likely being $100 or more cheaper that what Sony can offer. There's no benefit at all for Sony to wait so long. In fact, it's universally bad for them.

 

[bigtroyjon]

Probably reaching for the stars here, but do these numbers take Kinect into account?

Yes, it's for the whole division. The 360 platform(which Kinect is part of) provides nearly all of the revenue for the division but we don't have cost breakdowns for the 360 platform.

I personally think the 360 platform profits are higher than what's listed because of the rest of the division being a money loser but don't have any actual numbers to make an estimate so it's best to just use these numbers as the baseline estimate for the 360 profits while realizing they are likely higher.

edit- We should find out with the next results but Skype could screw up future numbers if they decide to throw it into this division and don't create a stand alone Skype division.

 

[ghst]

while sony are the one facing financial ruin, i can still see them riding console hardware all the way into the abyss.

i think the gaikai woman is implying that the next xbox won't be a gaming console, which makes absolute sense and mirrors much of what we've been hearing. xbox will become a supplementary service brand, incorporated into microsoft's new living room convergence device. it's been their end-game since the beginning. a metro/kinect powered tv box with hd gaming functionality - or atleast, as much hd gaming functionality as a <100w gpu can afford.

if xbox was microsoft's ipod, nextbox will be their iphone. sure, you can still play music on it, but it's far from its primary function.

 

[manueldelalas]

Why focus on only one company when both MS and Sony have lost billions this gen? Having such a lop-sided argument does little to support your point.

It's true that E&D division pales in comparison to other divisions, but it's also the division with the most growth potential. This is why MS is investing in it, they know they can't rest on their OS, Office, and server business alone.

In my first post on this thread, I posted my reasons for both companies.

I said I think this will not happen, but if I was forced to choose, I think MSFT has the less to gain from being in this business and have by far the less investment; while Sony has invested a lot in first party teams.

A new generation for both MSFT and Sony means a huge investment, because their consumers expect too much from them. MSFT has already lowered our expectations with Kinect, and have shown that they are changing their direction, so the rumors of them launching a completely different device are not that random; but Sony continues to go in the bleeding tech direction, and some of their developers have already talked about next generation.

If a company would be forced to pull out from the market for financial reasons, then it obviously will be Sony, but if a company is willing to pull out because the benefit is just not there for them, and the returns are worse than the investment, then I think the closest is MSFT.

Said that, I have to repeat that I expect all three console makers to continue making consoles.

 

[BadWolf]

i think the gaikai woman is implying that the next xbox won't be a gaming console, which makes absolute sense and mirrors much of what we've been hearing. xbox will become a supplementary service brand, incorporated into microsoft's new living room convergence device. it's been their end-game since the beginning. a metro/kinect powered tv box with hd gaming functionality - or atleast, as much hd gaming functionality as a <100w gpu can afford.

So what would this mean exactly? That games wouldn't be the focus for the next xbox anymore?

Wouldn't this mean that the console race, as we know it today, would be between just Nintendo and Sony then?

 

[ghst]

So what would this mean exactly? That games wouldn't be the focus for the next xbox anymore?

Wouldn't this mean that the console race, as we know it today, would be between just Nintendo and Sony then?

how is the portable mp3 player race doing?

 

[Marco1]

while sony are the one facing financial ruin, i can still see them riding console hardware all the way into the abyss.

i think the gaikai woman is implying that the next xbox won't be a gaming console, which makes absolute sense and mirrors much of what we've been hearing. xbox will become a supplementary service brand, incorporated into microsoft's new living room convergence device. it's been their end-game since the beginning. a metro/kinect powered tv box with hd gaming functionality - or atleast, as much hd gaming functionality as a <100w gpu can afford.

if xbox was microsoft's ipod, nextbox will be their iphone. sure, you can still play music on it, but it's far from its primary function.

This I agree with.

 

[Sleepy Buddha]

After Sony's CES presentation and the fact that sooner or later Kaz will run the company, there's no way they'll bow out.

Same thing for MS, it's too important for their future roadmap.

This a prediction and a really bad one at that. Perhaps after both companies said they wouldn't be announcing new consoles at E3, she decided that she could grab some headlines by making an outrageous statement like that. It certainly is the kind of crap that tech and games "journalists" love to latch on to.

Oh, and Mark Rein disagrees with her. And he would know.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I really don't see this happening any time soon. But hey, maybe we're due some Sega-going-3rd-party level megatons.

 

[Digishine]

We won't go out of the gaming hardware


the new psv is coming out and we named it Vita (life) we are still alive !

 

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

MS and Sony will join forces, hardware by Sony and Software by MS, also Miyamoto will heel turn and be the face of the new console.

 

[Huff]

while sony are the one facing financial ruin, i can still see them riding console hardware all the way into the abyss.

i think the gaikai woman is implying that the next xbox won't be a gaming console, which makes absolute sense and mirrors much of what we've been hearing. xbox will become a supplementary service brand, incorporated into microsoft's new living room convergence device. it's been their end-game since the beginning. a metro/kinect powered tv box with hd gaming functionality - or atleast, as much hd gaming functionality as a <100w gpu can afford.

if xbox was microsoft's ipod, nextbox will be their iphone. sure, you can still play music on it, but it's far from its primary function.

well said

 

[Pachterballs]

edge "storied" this on facebook so I came on neogaf to see if there was a thread.

I'm guessing SONY but eh?


Reads like bullshit though.

 

[LowEndTorque]

Could be Sony because they are bleeding money like a slaughtered pig and the Vita is going to bomb massively.

Could be Microsoft because the nextbox is not really a game console, something something use kinect as a trojan horse to conquer the world and get everyone on the planet to subscribe to live gold.

Could be neither because Gaikai be trollin'.

 

[Curufinwe]

Tom McShea of Gamespot's Hotspot podcast thinks this Gaikai person has a point because both Sony and Microsoft are losing money.

http://www.gamespot.com/events/the-hotspot/story.html?sid=6348499&tag=top_stories;title;1

To quote him directly:

Well both companies as a whole, not their game divisions, but both companies are losing money. And Sony's been losing money for years, right? So they are in a little more dire straits than I think you're giving them credit for. You're supposed to make money as a company, and they are losing money.

And none of the other three gaming journalists on the podcast pointed out that, at least for Microsoft, he was completely wrong and that they in fact make billions of dollars as a company every quarter. The level of ignorance about the industry they supposedly cover was appalling.

 

[Basileus777]

What the fuck? How could someone think that Microsoft as a whole was losing money?