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[Ultimadrago]

What's wrong with the stamina bar? I hated Skyward Sword's controls, but I think the stamina meter is one of the best additions to the series they've made.

I thought it added absolutely nothing to my gameplay. It didn't make things considerably difficult, or spice things up. It was an addition though. Yet more of a:

"Hell yeah! Sprinting!....oh" addition

In retrospect, I guess it eliminated infinite constant swinging with the Wiimote. Yet, that didn't really apply to me in the first place.

 

[Azure J]

I'm in the camp that believes that Zelda as a franchise has been excellent in every iteration I've experienced. I'm also of the belief that while the games post OoT have adhered to a certain formula (with choice aversions in MM & SS), they have done things to make sure the experience is different with each iteration. I definitely don't agree with the sentiment that Zelda needs any kind of "saving" otherwise 95% of video games are straight up unsalvageable at this point. I also don't particularly like how the author downplays how things work in 3D games because its "too automated". There are always elements that can stand to be more transparent or more cleverly conveyed in 3D Zelda design, but it doesn't fundamentally break the games as they stand.

With that all said, the exploration and trial-n-error stuff seen in LoZ1 and ALttP is a very valid style that should come back in vogue even for one or two 3D entries, or maybe as a wholly new 2D complimentary dish to modern Zelda (say under a "New! Legend of Zelda" imprint). I won't lie and say that I wouldn't like to see more open interpretation to tacking challenges in the vein of these two games (Zelda 1 especially).

 

[transience]

I like the original Zelda because of its emphasis on open-ended exploration and its focus on combat. You can go almost anywhere from the start and the game is very well designed: the further away from the start you get, the tougher the enemies are. There's an order to the dungeons but you don't explicitly need to go to them in that order. The game is harder than the average Zelda, too. There's a feeling of danger that's absent from later Zelda games. A lot of people get really pissed off at Zelda 1's rooms of wizzrobes and darknuts enemies but I really liked that. I didn't like Binding of Isaac's gameplay all that much but I loved the game because of the constant risk/reward factor and the feeling of satisfaction from clearing out a room of tough enemies. That's what Zelda 1 is all about.

Starting with LTTP, the series went down a path of puzzle solving and atmosphere over exploration and battles. It's a perfectly fine design decision but I always liked being lost in Zelda 1's world more than the guided, puzzle-happy approach that dominated later games. I wouldn't even consider myself much of a Zelda fan (the last one I played was Wind Waker and I didn't like it that much) but I do love the original. It was amazing for the time and is still fun today.

It's probably because I'm old and grew up with the original. It was a seminal gaming experience that everyone played and figured out together, back before the internet led us to every solution within seconds. I'll never forget where everything is because of how important it felt to find every secret.

fuck the second quest though, augh

 

[Riposte]

I thought it added absolutely nothing to my gameplay. It didn't make things considerably difficult, or spice things up. It was an addition though. Yet more of a:

"Hell yeah! Sprinting!....oh" addition

In retrospect, I guess it eliminated infinite constant swinging with the Wiimote. Yet, that didn't really apply to me in the first place.

So you are saying you don't want the series to be more like Demon's Souls?

 

[Shion]

I could not disagree more, especially after the huge, dull and lifeless wasteland that is Twilight Princess. I much prefer Skyward Sword's approach with its overworld dungeons - you actually do something in the areas instead of just running through empty fields without anything to do outside of dungeons.

The overworld in Twilight Princess was bad because:

1- There was nothing to do.
2- The environments were lifeless and boring.

If they make a huge overworld with atmospheric and immersive environments, interesting side-quests and areas to explore, it'd be great. In my opinion, Zelda needs to give us again this wonderful sense of being a very small person that sets out for a real adventure in a gigantic, rich, scary, immersive, unknown and dangerous world. I haven't felt that in a Zelda game for a long time.

 

[TheCongressman1]

I don't like that things fit so perfectly together now. You can perfect something to the point that it removes much of its appeal. I think 'mechanical' and 'easy' are both apt words for what more modern Zelda games are like that don't fit quite so neatly with the older ones.

Absolutely.

 

[Phatcorns]

I didn't even bother reading this article past the first few sentences. To say that Zelda needs saving and is broken to its core (really) is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard.

There may be perfectly valid thoughts in the rest of the article but saying something that ridiculous from the get-go sort of negates any desire for me to devote my time to reading it.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I thought it added absolutely nothing to my gameplay. It didn't make things considerably difficult, or spice things up. It was an addition though. Yet more of a:

"Hell yeah! Sprinting!....oh" addition

In retrospect, I guess it eliminated infinite constant swinging with the Wiimote. Yet, that didn't really apply to me in the first place.

While I'd agree they could have done upgradable stamina so eventually you could run all over, I thought it was pretty noticeable that the stamina put a fresh spin on many climbing and incline situations. Even running up the cliffs in Eldin while dodging boulders and trying to make it to ledges to rest, was fun. Likewise, you had to think about climbing and being efficient.

 

[Ultimadrago]

So you are saying you don't want the series to be more like Demon's Souls?

No, I want the series to be more like...Super Meat Boy and Baldur's Gate FUUUSED with

Spoiler

Dark Souls

!

Hachachaaaa

 

[djtiesto]

Simply cutting back on the hand-holding would do the series wonders.

Spoiler

And not releasing garbage like Spirit Tracks.

I wish Nintendo would throw the oldskool fans a bone with a 2D "New Legend of Zelda" though, I'm actually really surprised they didn't but maybe now that the series is in a bit of a sales lull in Japan, perhaps they just might.

 

[Emitan]

The best part about the stamina meter is that it means I'm not compelled to roll all the time. I basically have to move as fast as possible in games.

I was playing Nier last weekend the way I move across the map is using a Spear and doing the dash attack, canceling it onto a roll, dashing, rolling, dashing, rolling, etc...

It's annoying, but I HAVE TO DO IT because there's no reason not to. SS gives you a reason for not moving as fast as possible all the time, and intelligent use of Stamina is faster than just using it all up and waiting.

 

[civilstrife]

This is a very well articulated piece.

Like it or not, he speaks for many of us. Zelda is hurting. Skyward Sword was an utter chore and TP was worse.

Something is wrong with the series and this article goes a long way in specifying exactly what.

 

[Super Smash Bro]

"Hey, Nintendo, remember that game that is the most acclaimed game in history, is frequently hailed as the greatest of all time, and also is the best selling in the franchise? It's broken and ruined the series."

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

Merely to a small degree.

If you wanted to post a review to support your view, you could have at least chosen a well-written one (the GB one for example). I'll leave this here to offer a counter point.

What it seems he is saying does not mean that the world should be completely open, but that how you explore the environment is up to the player, rather than a linear experience disguised as an exploration adventure game.

It's been a long time since Zelda was a game that placed emphasis on exploration, WW showed that to be a dead end, & given the way Nintendo has made the series more about fulfilling destiny than anything else I doubt(hope) it will change.

Analyzing and looking into new, fresh concepts and ideas, is never unwelcoming.

True, that's why I enjoyed SS.

 

[xHAASx]

Is that your point? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, other than saying you don't like Zelda. Okay? That's cool I guess. That is an opinion, not a truth that you can point to Gamespot to help back up your case.

What's your point?

 

[Emitan]

"Hey, Nintendo, remember that game that is the most acclaimed game in history, is frequently hailed as the greatest of all time, and also is the best selling in the franchise? It's broken and ruined the series."

He's saying that OoT changed the way Zelda games were made, he dislikes it, and it's unfortunate that every game sense has copied that same style. It doesn't mean OoT ruined the series, it means Nintendo should stop coping it.

 

[Dion Blaster]

I think the divide lies in what exactly you think the heart of Zelda is:
Zelda 1, or Link to the Past.

Zelda 1 was about freedom, but basically came down to tedious exploration without a hint of direction.
Link to the Past is what pretty much every Zelda since then is based on. As someone else said, it's the prototype. If you thought LttP was a step backwards somehow from Zelda 1, I can see how you'd be disappointed with the direction the series has gone. But it's time to move on to another series if thats the case. (But I agree that less hand-holding would be a good thing)
Every Zelda since is based on Link to the Past's formula, and it's proven to be FAR from broken.

 

[xHAASx]

If you wanted to post a review to support your view, you could have at least chosen a well-written one (the GB one for example). I'll leave this here to offer a counter point.




It's been a long time since Zelda was a game that placed emphasis on exploration, WW showed that to be a dead end, & given the way Nintendo has made the series more about fulfilling destiny than anything else I doubt(hope) it will change.




True, that's why I enjoyed SS.

Is it well-written, owing to the score?

 

[Dion Blaster]

"Hey, Nintendo, remember that game that is the most acclaimed game in history, is frequently hailed as the greatest of all time, and also is the best selling in the franchise? It's broken and ruined the series."

/

 

[Shion]

"Hey, Nintendo, remember that game that is the most acclaimed game in history, is frequently hailed as the greatest of all time, and also is the best selling in the franchise? It's broken and ruined the series."

Oh come on now, everyone knows that's a hyperbole. But that doesn't mean that Zelda doesn't need to evolve.

 

[DanielJr82]

I bookmarked the article for later. Way too tired to be reading anything right now, lol.

 

[Medalion]

Zelda was stale since even OOT? Get outta 'ere!

 

[MisterHero]

"Hey, Nintendo, remember that game that is the most acclaimed game in history, is frequently hailed as the greatest of all time, and also is the best selling in the franchise? It's broken and ruined the series."

Yep, this is the point.

Zelda II, the very first sequel, was Nintendo's attempt to inject more action into the formula.

Nintendo was always going to move away from the original gameplay.

This might be a surprise for people, but Nintendo isn't content with releasing the same game everytime. Especially with SS.

Explanations for SS's sales performance can have NOTHING to do with the game at all.

Spoiler

Much like factors effecting Majora's Mask's release.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

What's your point?

That the article is stupid, and that a Gamespot review is an awful way to validate your opinion with a lackluster form of argumentum ad populum. You asked me on my opinion of the series and I offered it. I'm still wondering what you're continued rebuttals are actually converging toward, or if you're just posting without substance.

Oh come on now, everyone knows that's a hyperbole. But that doesn't mean that Zelda doesn't need to evolve.

Need?

 

[Super Smash Bro]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but using the Gamespot review for anything other than ridicule invalidates any point you may be trying to make. It was so bad that Gamespot had to redact parts of it for being factually wrong.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I think Zelda 1 can be injected into the series without ruining it.

 

[Shion]

Need?

Yes.

 

[xHAASx]

That the article is stupid. You asked me on my opinion of the series and I offered it. I'm still wondering what you're continued rebuttals are actually converging toward, or if you're just posting without substance.

The dullness of the article is partly vindicated.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Yes.

For you or for the market? Because any other suggestions are assumptions.

EDIT: Actually, remarking on the market results in assumptions as well (Sales-Age), but it actually has numbers and concrete data.

 

[daedalius]

I think the divide lies in what exactly you think the heart of Zelda is:
Zelda 1, or Link to the Past.

Zelda 1 was about freedom, but basically came down to tedious exploration without a hint of direction.
Link to the Past is what pretty much every Zelda since then is based on. As someone else said, it's the prototype. If you thought LttP was a step backwards somehow from Zelda 1, I can see how you'd be disappointed with the direction the series has gone. But it's time to move on to another series if thats the case. (But I agree that less hand-holding would be a good thing)
Every Zelda since is based on Link to the Past's formula, and it's proven to be FAR from broken.

Hmm, I don't know. I just feel like there is something different about LTTP than OoT and the rest of its ilk.

It is still a series of nested locks and keys; maybe it has something to do with the fact you can actually explore almost all of the overworld (darkside and lightside) right from the very beginning, and there are a lot of secrets to find and feel like you are exploring. Also 11 dungeons or so I think, maybe more including Ganon's tower and the palace, most were quite varied aesthetically and it never felt like a retread. Very much opposed to what they did in SS, which was use the same 3 areas repeatedly for everything.

 

[Azure J]

Re-reading the article, I actually find myself wholly agreeing to entire parts of his argument, especially on challenge and how plot has managed to take some shine away from genuine roaming due to the need to stick to a certain sequence versus moving through different scenarios as he put it.

It's just coming as a strange dissonance to me then that even for as much as I agree with him, I just can't agree with the conclusion that modern Zelda is broken.

On another note, Billychu's post reminds me that I've always felt that to be the one true issue with Nintendo making Zelda's after OoT. Even though there are signs in every game afterward that show Nintendo is more than capable of aping that game in spades, there's always some odd quota they have to fill that goes back to it either in design or scenario that holds them back. They need to let it be and just go wild, basically Majora's Mask us.

 

[xHAASx]

That the article is stupid, and that a Gamespot review is an awful way to validate your opinion with a lackluster form of argumentum ad populum. You asked me on my opinion of the series and I offered it. I'm still wondering what you're continued rebuttals are actually converging toward, or if you're just posting without substance.



Need?

You have a strong desire for the selfsame Zelda in 2030?

 

[TheCongressman1]

I think Zelda 1 can be injected into the series without ruining it.

I don't see how it would do anything but add. There isn't any reason why freedom of exploration would take away from the current design.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

You have a strong desire for the selfsame Zelda in 2030?

Hypothetically stating some slippery slope won't help your case.

 

[Orayn]

Hmm, I don't know. I just feel like there is something different about LTTP than OoT and the rest of its ilk.

It is still a series of nested locks and keys; maybe it has something to do with the fact you can actually explore almost all of the overworld (darkside and lightside) right from the very beginning, and there are a lot of secrets to find and feel like you are exploring.

Not really? Walk a few screens in any given direction and you run into some obstacle that needs an item to be cleared.

 

[Shion]

For you or for the market? Because any other suggestions are assumptions.

For me and for many other fans of the series that feel the same way.

 

[xHAASx]

Hypothetically stating some slippery slope won't help your case.

Thusly, you do?

 

[Riposte]

"Hey, Nintendo, remember that game that is the most acclaimed game in history, is frequently hailed as the greatest of all time, and also is the best selling in the franchise? It's broken and ruined the series."

People who think The Legend of Zelda OoT is the greatest game of all time are pretty crazy. I would love to see an argument where they explain why a prototypical step into 3D action gaming is better than decades of strategy gaming design, including games like Civilization 4, Total War: Shogun II, and Paradox's Universalis Europa/Hearts of Iron/Victoria/etc. Then after achieving that impossible feat, they can explain away the shitty technical problems and explain why 3D gaming hasn't evolved since then (with titles like Devil May Cry and Dark Souls immediately drawing inspiration from it). With that sacred cow business out of the way, it becomes easy to understand why someone wouldn't care about how much a game sold or what an unworthy circle of published critics thought of it.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

For me and for many other fans of the series that feel the same way.

OH GOD SOMEBODY PHONE NINTENDO, THERE'S THESE GUYS AND....GEEZ JUST THEY NEED TO FIX THIS SERIES, HURRY!

Thusly, you do?

You're really bad at this, you know that?

 

[daedalius]

Not really? Walk a few screens in any given direction and you run into some obstacle that needs an item to be cleared.

I don't remember that, but it wouldn't surprise me. I thought you had access to most of the world pretty early, at least I'm fairly certain you had access to the WHOLE world as soon as you first jumped to the dark side (which you could then subsequently go back and forth between)

 

[StevieP]

The overworld in Twilight Princess was bad because:

1- There was nothing to do.
2- The environments were lifeless and boring.

If they make a huge overworld with atmospheric and immersive environments, interesting side-quests and areas to explore, it'd be great. In my opinion, Zelda needs to give us again this wonderful sense of being a very small person that sets out for a real adventure in a gigantic, rich, scary, immersive, unknown and dangerous world. I haven't felt that in a Zelda game for a long time.

So you want the game to take 7 years to develop and/or do copy+paste NPCs like Skyrim and/or be 6 hours long?

Why do I even bother entering Zelda threads again?

 

[Emitan]

So you want the game to take 7 years to develop and/or do copy+paste NPCs like Skyrim and/or be 6 hours long?

Why do I even bother entering Zelda threads again?

Skyward Sword was in development for 5 years and had needless padding and backtracking. I'd rather have a large, empty overworld than a smaller world filled with filler.

And I'd rather have a shorter Zelda than a long one for the sake of length.

 

[xHAASx]

OH GOD SOMEBODY PHONE NINTENDO, THERE'S THESE GUYS AND....GEEZ JUST THEY NEED TO FIX THIS SERIES, HURRY!



You're really bad at this, you know that?

 

[rar]

It's annoying, but I HAVE TO DO IT because there's no reason not to. SS gives you a reason for not moving as fast as possible all the time, and intelligent use of Stamina is faster than just using it all up and waiting.

the reason to not move as fast as possible all the time is because the world is interesting, with interesting things to find and interesting enemies to fight. usually you only find some money which you can't buy anything interesting with, and the combat is boring and you'll only come across the same rehashed enemy

 

[protonion]

He is absolutely right about the items just being keys. I've said in another topic that after MM, Zelda games have failed to deliver the playground gameplay that they used to excel at.

In oot after you got the hookshot you could go to kakariko village and try to climb the roofs for a heart piece. It was so fun -at least at the time- to fail to reach one roof, then go one step closer or try from a different angle. And when you reached the piece you felt so great. A small game design triumph. And oot was full of them.
In tp you have few boring hook targets throughout the game. Try any other surface and you get a clank sound.

Personally I only enjoy the dungeons in newer zeldas and that's why I keep playing them. The in between parts are terrible.

If nintendo don't get their shit together in the near future the best Zelda game might not be a Zelda game anymore. Darksiders for one did a lot of things better.

 

[Chittagong]

While not having a coherent, memorable, interesting overworld integrated with temples like in LTTP is regrettable in post OoT Zeldas, I have no problem with the core gameplay loop perfected in SS:

1. Come to new, huge area with no idea what to do
2. Figure out your surroundings and a think of way through them
3. Execute your way through the surroundings with a sequence of actions

This loop is repeated masterfully in SS, and not even masked at all, with so much variation and imagination that it just keeps you going. The genius bit which makes SS a true masterpiece is that it expands this loop to the world outside, treating outside areas as dungeons with long puzzles too.

So no, the core loop does not need to be changed, as long as they can keep as much imagination and variation in it as they do in SS (light years ahead of TP). But the series could benefit of a holistic, interesting world and a story that is a little less bland and cookie cutter.

 

[Anth0ny]

So you want the game to take 7 years to develop and/or do copy+paste NPCs like Skyrim and/or be 6 hours long?

Why do I even bother entering Zelda threads again?

Majora's Mask. Got it done in 1 year.

I think Zelda 1 can be injected into the series without ruining it.

Dark Souls. Modern day Zelda 1 and 2 mixed into one glorious package.

The best part about the stamina meter is that it means I'm not compelled to roll all the time. I basically have to move as fast as possible in games.

I was playing Nier last weekend the way I move across the map is using a Spear and doing the dash attack, canceling it onto a roll, dashing, rolling, dashing, rolling, etc...

It's annoying, but I HAVE TO DO IT because there's no reason not to. SS gives you a reason for not moving as fast as possible all the time, and intelligent use of Stamina is faster than just using it all up and waiting.

The stamina bar did fuck all for me. I still wanted to roll at all times, and at the very least, I wanted to be sprinting at all times. Holding run, waiting for your stamina to build up, and holding run again got real old, real fast.

 

[Ultimadrago]

Despite Gamespot's....Gamestoppiness, which makes for no decent argument in many situations. They surprisingly hit it on the head with their numerical score, if I was to score Skyward Sword out of 10 it would most definitely be a 7-7.5.

 

[Shion]

So you want the game to take 7 years to develop and/or do copy+paste NPCs like Skyrim and/or be 6 hours long?

Why do I even bother entering Zelda threads again?

Skyward Sword was in development for 5-6 years and was filled with fetch-quests.

 

[Emitan]

Majora's Mask. Got it done in 1 year.

The whole reason the game was made is because they could reuse assets and concepts from OoT's development. The game wasn't created from scratch in a year.

The stamina bar did fuck all for me. I still wanted to roll at all times, and at the very least, I wanted to be sprinting at all times. Holding run, waiting for your stamina to build up, and holding run again got real old, real fast.

When it runs out you're moving at basically the same speed you move at in every other 3D Zelda.