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Halo |OT3| Remember Reach?

F

FyreWulff

Member
Overdoz1z said:
I mentioned Basis too!
There are probably more but I can't think of them at the moment. Mostly talking about the Team Slayer task anyway.

I really think there should only be a handful of Forge maps in matchmaking as 99% just isn't good enough. They're fun to play in customs every now and then but that's about it. And because there's a rarely a really good map made in Forge I also think there should only be 1 or 2 Forge maps in each playlist. If there would only be so few Forge maps in MM people would probably also complain less about all of them looking grey and similar to each other.

Just looking at the amount of Forge maps in Team Slayer makes me disgusted, and I say that as someone who Forges regularly. 19 Forge maps and only 6 on-disc non-DLC maps? That's crazy. I'd rather have a few good maps that a shitload of terrible and mediocre maps (like is the case right now).
Click to expand...

Well, the original plan was to have separate community lists that acted as mass beta tests (hence Community Slayer and Community BTB only being around for a week), then the most popular maps in voting would get one more pass from the author and pushed to the rest of matchmaking.

The playlist cap and the Anni split redundancy have pretty much killed the chance (in my opinion) of seeing special lists like Flagstravaganza, Community Slayer / BTB, and so on come back. Some time ago they said the TU Beta list was coming back, but I have no idea what the TU Beta lists would even be used for this time around with Halo 4 breathing down Reach's neck.

The only lists the CCs can push to are existing ones, and therein lies the minefield of opinions on maps.
 
H

Homeboyd

Member
Overdoz1z said:
I mentioned Basis too!
There are probably more but I can't think of them at the moment. Mostly talking about the Team Slayer task anyway.

I really think there should only be a handful of Forge maps in matchmaking as 99% just isn't good enough. They're fun to play in customs every now and then but that's about it. And because there's a rarely a really good map made in Forge I also think there should only be 1 or 2 Forge maps in each playlist. If there would only be so few Forge maps in MM people would probably also complain less about all of them looking grey and similar to each other.

Just looking at the amount of Forge maps in Team Slayer makes me disgusted, and I say that as someone who Forges regularly. 19 Forge maps and only 6 on-disc non-DLC maps? That's crazy. I'd rather have a few good maps that a shitload of terrible and mediocre maps (like is the case right now).
Click to expand...
Yeah I hear ya, but that's why I asked to exclude the "I'd remove them all (or most of them)" argument. It's a valid argument, but of they are going to be added, I wanted to see which had HaloGafs support. I've asked this several times in the past but most aren't willing to provide input because it opens them up to being criticized for their choices. Thought I'd give it another shot.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
A27 Tawpgun said:
Can community cartographers stop making new maps and just work to fix the current ones?
Click to expand...

It'd help if people just stop being vague about maps and actually provide the Cartographers solid bug reports on exact problems with the maps so they can be mainlined up to 343 and/or the author. What is wrong, where is it wrong, what you have to do to reproduce it.

Then email the bug report to cartographers@bungie.org (that goes to me and petetheduck) or PM me/Ghaleon/NOKYARD/Homeboyd for forwarding.

Note that updates are limited to once a month though, so something you might not like right now could have been fixed and it's just waiting for the next update cycle to be deployed. So don't expect it to be fixed within days of being reported. (But still report, please). Or just post it in the open actually, one of us will see it and throw it up the chain.
 
T

The Real Napsta

Member
Firewulf, do authors have to submit their own maps? Like say if someone took Salot's Pit map, edited the weapons to be like Halo 3 default and submitted it would that be frowned upon?
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
Someone has brought this up in the Refuge thread on Waypoint and it got me thinking; Do the maps that are being considered for matchmaking actually get tested by really good and competitive players? Because I feel like the vast majority of the maps that are getting into matchmaking are fine when casual/mediocre players play on them but once you put two good teams on there they will fall apart quite quickly.

Also, is there a Cartographer that's actually really competitive? No offense to the current CCs but from what I've seen none of them actually play the game very competitively, at least in 4v4s.
 
K

Karl2177

Member
FyreWulff said:
It'd help if people just stop being vague about maps and actually provide the Cartographers solid bug reports on exact problems with the maps so they can be mainlined up to 343 and/or the author. What is wrong, where is it wrong, what you have to do to reproduce it.

Then email the bug report to cartographers@bungie.org (that goes to me and petetheduck) or PM me/Ghaleon/NOKYARD/Homeboyd for forwarding.

Note that updates are limited to once a month though, so something you might not like right now could have been fixed and it's just waiting for the next update cycle to be deployed. So don't expect it to be fixed within days of being reported. (But still report, please). Or just post it in the open actually, one of us will see it and throw it up the chain.
Click to expand...
Map: Countdown
Problem: power weapons suck ass
Solution: replace power weapon set
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
The Real Napsta said:
Firewulf, do authors have to submit their own maps? Like say if someone took Salot's Pit map, edited the weapons to be like Halo 3 default and submitted it would that be frowned upon?
Click to expand...

Nope, every map is owned by 343 as part of your agreement for uploading to a file share (and previously, Bungie). Any map is fair game. The "original author" metadata remains on the map even if you never mentioned the original author in your submission.


Karl2177 said:
Map: Countdown
Problem: power weapons suck ass
Solution: replace power weapon set
Click to expand...

marked: wontfix
submitting variant with 7 Rocket Launchers


Overdoz1z said:
Someone has brought this up in the Refuge thread on Waypoint and it got me thinking; Do the maps that are being considered for matchmaking actually get tested by really good and competitive players? Because I feel like the vast majority of the maps that are getting into matchmaking are fine when casual/mediocre players play on them but once you put two good teams on there they will fall apart quite quickly.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter who does first round testing in CC, it still goes through 343's internal testing process after it's submitted. Who does that? Nobody knows. If you want MLG pros playing in the tests, get some MLG pros to play on the map and submit that film. I don't understand that last line though.
 
S

Striker

Member
A27 Tawpgun said:
Can community cartographers stop making new maps and just work to fix the current ones?
Click to expand...
I sincerely doubt the original maps will ever be truly erased. Look at Halo 3, you had The Pit default still in there fresh with god-awful attic spawns, and also Snowbound and Epitaph with their glorious shield doors. Still I recall getting Oddball in those maps months after those specific versions were included.

It would've been nicer to eliminate Asylum and Pinnacle and add in better creations of Sanctuary and Ascension, but oh well. I'm sure they rather update BTB with Heavies.

A27 Tawpgun said:
Question.

Who are the retarded Halo fans who regard Hang Em High as a good map? Explain please.
Click to expand...
I liked it in Halo CE, but then again I just played Pistol starts in a 3v3 setting. I did like Damnation, Wizard, and Battle Creek much more, but it was a decent option. People tend to like Derelict, and it was awful.

FyreWulff said:
Well, it's all a matter of opinion... but I strongly disagree with the reversal of the bases again. Tombstone had it right with Red being up high in the big base. Defending the flag in the small base is pretty lulz
Click to expand...
I agreed with their decision design for it in 2. The air lift, broken section of the bridge on the Needler spawn, creating the hole in the Overshield hallway underneath red base, and the swap of team bases. Big differences in the long run, and made for better gameplay.
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
kylej said:
overdoziz irl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j_tpgzn550
Click to expand...
ibaN4wqWCA9INK.gif
 
T

Tawpgun

Member
FyreWulff said:
It'd help if people just stop being vague about maps and actually provide the Cartographers solid bug reports on exact problems with the maps so they can be mainlined up to 343 and/or the author. What is wrong, where is it wrong, what you have to do to reproduce it.

Then email the bug report to cartographers@bungie.org (that goes to me and petetheduck) or PM me/Ghaleon/NOKYARD/Homeboyd for forwarding.

Note that updates are limited to once a month though, so something you might not like right now could have been fixed and it's just waiting for the next update cycle to be deployed. So don't expect it to be fixed within days of being reported. (But still report, please). Or just post it in the open actually, one of us will see it and throw it up the chain.
Click to expand...
Not bugs though. Just helping out the gameplay. If I made a variant of countdown could I submit it?

Also, another question.

What's the deal with the Halo.4 thread. Is there gonna be a halo 4 OT? Or are we keeping it all here.
 
N

NOKYARD

Member
Overdoz1z said:
Someone has brought this up in the Refuge thread on Waypoint and it got me thinking; Do the maps that are being considered for matchmaking actually get tested by really good and competitive players? Because I feel like the vast majority of the maps that are getting into matchmaking are fine when casual/mediocre players play on them but once you put two good teams on there they will fall apart quite quickly.

Also, is there a Cartographer that's actually really competitive? No offense to the current CCs but from what I've seen none of them actually play the game very competitively, at least in 4v4s.
Click to expand...
I believe you are misunderstanding the role of the Cartographers.

This is kind of a bad analogy (sports analogies always are) but think of us as talent scouts seeking the finest Basketball players. We can be short, fat, and unable to make free throws, but we know a good point guard when we see one. Once we make our recommendations it is up to management (343 MM sustain team) to decide if the player (map) is right for the team's roster (MM playlist).

It is up the the map's builders and supporters to ensure the map has been tested by player's matched to the map's intended audience.

The best way for an individual (such as yourself) to make a difference in the quality of maps we push to 343i is to get involved at the testing level and put these maps in front of your high calibre friends. Then supply the builders with film-backed suggestions. Gauging how builders respond to such feedback carries a lot of weight in my decision to push a map forward. Your contributions in the testing phase may have more impact than you realize.
 
T

thezerofire

Banned
FyreWulff said:
It'd help if people just stop being vague about maps and actually provide the Cartographers solid bug reports on exact problems with the maps so they can be mainlined up to 343 and/or the author. What is wrong, where is it wrong, what you have to do to reproduce it.

Then email the bug report to cartographers@bungie.org (that goes to me and petetheduck) or PM me/Ghaleon/NOKYARD/Homeboyd for forwarding.

Note that updates are limited to once a month though, so something you might not like right now could have been fixed and it's just waiting for the next update cycle to be deployed. So don't expect it to be fixed within days of being reported. (But still report, please). Or just post it in the open actually, one of us will see it and throw it up the chain.
Click to expand...
How about they're pretty much all terrible? Like worse than disc maps terrible

NOKYARD said:
I believe you are misunderstanding the role of the Cartographers.

This is kind of a bad analogy (sports analogies always are) but think of us as talent scouts seeking the finest Basketball players. We can be short, fat, and unable to make free throws, but we know a good point guard when we see one.
Click to expand...
When maps like Ellul (and most of the other forge maps in MM for that matter) get into the game, I find this incredibly difficult to believe.
 
X

xxjuicesxx

Member
I still like Enclosed. Thats a good doubles and 4v4 map. I guess I like Select. I like Treasury too(Previously I thought it was Kingdom but I do not really like Kingdom all that much, its too open not enough cover, host potshotting battle)

The new maps they just put in are all pretty bad, Imago, Pulse, and Ellul. I think there were other bad ones I played through too but they all blend together.

Basically remove everything that just got added and try again. None of them are MM quality.
 
T

thezerofire

Banned
Homeboyd said:
So I ask, again, what maps do you support?
Click to expand...
The only decent forge maps I've played that aren't in regular matchmaking are The Pit and Refuge, and Refuge has already been turned down for whatever reason. Select is decent, same with Treasury. But that's besides the point. Is what you're saying really just "Well we couldn't find any good maps, so we just put whatever maps through?" Is the excuse for these terrible maps just "well people didn't recommend enough good maps?" That's a cop-out if I've ever heard one.
 
T

Tawpgun

Member
thezerofire said:
When maps like Ellul (and most of the other forge maps in MM for that matter) get into the game, I find this incredibly difficult to believe.
Click to expand...
This.

I get your analogy, but I doubt you can tell how a map will play at high level play from a few casual playtests.

When I first played Highlands I thought it saved BTB. First few games in customs were glorious. Then I played it more in matchmaking where its flaws really shined.

There's no easy way to fix this besides getting good players to play it a bunch of times.
 
H

Homeboyd

Member
thezerofire said:
The only decent forge maps I've played that aren't in regular matchmaking are The Pit and Refuge, and Refuge has already been turned down for whatever reason. Select is decent, same with Treasury. But that's besides the point. Is what you're saying really just "Well we couldn't find any good maps, so we just put whatever maps through?" Is the excuse for these terrible maps just "well people didn't recommend enough good maps?" That's a cop-out if I've ever heard one.
Click to expand...
lol no but my point is, other communities get their maps considered because they consistently post maps and test them in an effort to get them in MM. I ask what maps you guys support (and have been for about a year now) and only hear "well I like this map (that's already in MM) but I hate the rest. Get rid of them." Two problems with that; A) it isn't our call to decide what gets added or removed from MM and B) if CC exists to push community maps into MM, why is your solution to just "pull all community maps out"? We aren't going to dissemble because a few people disagree with the maps that made it in, but more relevant to this discussion, no one ever steps up to offer their recommendations.

We constantly are pushing maps that competitive players as a whole enjoy an support, but if it isn't right for a particular task we're working on, then it won't get in for that update. The MM sustain team can pull and push maps as they wish, we can't. Too many people think our role is to sustain MM and manage the playlists. It isn't. At all.

Give us your recommendations for maps you personally support and back (and it would help if they weren't already in MM) or live with what other communities are taking the time to support while you aren't.

I'm with you guys in that a community only playlist would be best and ultimately remove a majority of community maps from other playlists, but again, it isn't our call... Nor is it our place to abuse our relationship with 343 or Bungie to "strongly recommend" anything like that. As an aside; for every Halogaffer that hates "Ellul" let's say, there's an entire community that loves it. So, your move would be to listen to who is most vocal about hating it and ignore the majority of a community that has been very helpful in spotlighting community maps for us to consider? Don't see a problem with that?
 
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