Support NeoGAF

[InaudibleWhispa]

LMAO first shot of the Oktobercast from Tested.com

http://www.tested.com/original/449638-octoberkast-live-now/

lol

 

[NintendoGal]

For the record, do we know that the original Keighly Mountain Dew/doritos pic was legit and not a photoshop?

Yes. I got a press inquiry that said he'd be doing this (taking interviews on the phone with a video recording of his responses in this environment).

 

[ChosenPredator]

jschreier here has an opportunity to engage in actual, honest to goodness, journalism, and instead he's content with Mario themed wedding cakes and Street Fighter cosplay. Listen man, I think you're a decent guy, but you're being disingenuous if you're saying that this isn't real news. Show us your true investigative writing chops, and prove us wrong.

I think he's stuck in this vortex now ... people are going forever see what his articles are about and if it deals with pizza pocket in the shape of an arcade stick someone is going to remember this moment, lol.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

because people are now getting upset that other gaming sites to chime in on something that they really don't have a way to, there's no story here, just a lot of drama, the sweetheart relationship between pr and journos is a HUGE issue, just not one that can be talked about clearly with this specific situation.



who's posts? i don't even know what you're reffering to.

The points contained in the original article, you keep dancing around them with twaddle about him poisoning his points by pointing out journalist who had made ethical errors.

Also I think you (deliberately?) are misunderstanding, I don't think anyone really wants an article solely dealing with Wainwright/Keighly?Doritos/#PS3freebies etc. but as it is currently a hot topic amongst gamers to use that as a springboard to detail(or reiterate) their own ethical codes/standards when dealing with PR/freebies etc.

 

[Branduil]

my word.. get over yourself person -__-

I'm sorry for having standards.

 

[NoirVisage]

jschreier here has an opportunity to engage in actual, honest to goodness, journalism, and instead he's content with Mario themed wedding cakes and Street Fighter cosplay. Listen man, I think you're a decent guy, but you're being disingenuous if you're saying that this isn't real news. Show us your true investigative writing chops, and prove us wrong.

here's an idea.. let them run their site the way they chose, you're still not understanding that there's nothing to investigate here.

I'm sorry for having standards.

be sorrier for thinking those standards matter enough to rub it in the site owners face.

 

[CambriaRising]

I hope you extend the same courtesy to Geoff Keighley then. It must have been many years since his last review in any official capacity.

I think I have an earlier post in this thread expressing that I don't think Geoff did anything wrong because he is, and has been a shill for these companies ever since he started his GTTV/VGAs thing. Its completely transparent.

 

[Risette]

be sorrier for thinking those standards matter enough to rub it in the site owners face.

So you're saying that he should feel sorry for thinking his standards matter? Amazing. You're truly something.

 

[Wrestlemania]

you're still not understanding that there's nothing to investigate here..

 

[antitrop]

Please don't say "us" when you "me". Pretty much everything I ever see you post is negative in some way towards the industry if my memory serves me.

Compared to the vast majority of comments in this thread I'm a bastion of positivity.
I love video games, I love the industry, it's my hobby of choice and I'm all about lavishing praise when praise is due, but I call it like I see it.

Really I think you just completely misunderstood my point, though.

 

[papersleeves]

For the record, do we know that the original Keighly Mountain Dew/doritos pic was legit and not a photoshop?

It's legit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjXSI6O9lUo

 

[Lime]

NoirVisage, you continue to misunderstand and misinterpret the issue. Either you are intentionally trolling or you are being obtuse. Nonetheless, you are not promoting a healthy and rational discussion when you constantly fail to engage what people are talking about.

 

[EternalGamer]

For the record, do we know that the original Keighly Mountain Dew/doritos pic was legit and not a photoshop?

Here is the video it is from. It is an awesome piece of high fructose shillmanship.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sjXSI6O9lUo&desktop_uri=/watch?v=sjXSI6O9lUo

Part of what I'm talking about today is the double xp program that Mountain Dew and Doritos are bringing back which actually allow gamers to rank up inside of Wargames in Halo 4 by purchasing Mountain Dew or Doritos. So this is a great example of a brand saying 'Hey we wanna actually give benefit and value to gamers' so if you buy Mountain Dew, you buy Doritos you get a code... and your gonna get some experience in the game. It's a good partnership. - Geoff Keighley

Thank you Mountan Dew and Dorritos for bringing "benefit and value" to us gamers!

 

[ColossalLazy]

here's an idea.. let them run their site the way they chose, you're still not understanding that there's nothing to investigate here.

You didnt answer my question. Are you a gaming "journalist"?

 

[NervousXtian]

jschreier here has an opportunity to engage in actual, honest to goodness, journalism, and instead he's content with Mario themed wedding cakes and Street Fighter cosplay. Listen man, I think you're a decent guy, but you're being disingenuous if you're saying that this isn't real news. Show us your true investigative writing chops, and prove us wrong.

Fucking shit, really? This is what came too? Dude posts on GAF, he's one of us.. and you want to tell him how to do his freaking job?

He's already said what his site is for, why he hasn't spoken too it... and this is your reply?

Wow... just wow... the audacity of some of you.

 

[Risette]

Fucking shit, really? This is what came too? Dude posts on GAF, he's one of us.. and you want to tell him how to do his freaking job?

He's already said what his site is for, why he hasn't spoken too it... and this is your reply?

Wow... just wow... the audacity of some of you.

He's not telling him how to do his job. Did you even read his post?

 

[jschreier]

jschreier here has an opportunity to engage in actual, honest to goodness, journalism, and instead he's content with Mario themed wedding cakes and Street Fighter cosplay. Listen man, I think you're a decent guy, but you're being disingenuous if you're saying that this isn't real news. Show us your true investigative writing chops, and prove us wrong.

I didn't say it wasn't real news. I said that I'm not particularly interested in writing about it (and admittedly I've thought a lot more about this in the past hour or two than I have all week - this sort of topic just doesn't interest me all that much), and that it might not fit the website that employs me. We don't often cover media issues like this. Remember, not every gaming website has to cover every issue (and the web would sure be a boring place if they did). You don't have to agree; I just want to make my reasoning clear.

 

[CambriaRising]

I didn't say it wasn't real news. I said that I'm not particularly interested in writing about it (and admittedly I've thought a lot more about this in the past hour or two than I have all week - this sort of topic just doesn't interest me all that much), and that it might not fit the website that employs me. We don't often cover media issues like this. Remember, not every gaming website has to cover every issue (and the web would sure be a boring place if they did). You don't have to agree; I just want to make my reasoning clear.

Would you even be allowed to write an article like that, I wonder? (I don't expect an answer.)

 

[Branduil]

be sorrier for thinking those standards matter enough to rub it in the site owners face.

Well, I do almost feel sorry for gaming journalists having you as their ambassador in this thread. Almost.

Given how so much of this discussion centers around the dishonesty of gaming journalism, I think honest opinions are the best policy. I can't respect Kotaku.com as a gaming news site if they'll report "Chinese Grandma Tries to Shut Down a Microsoft Event" but not this much more important story.

 

[Delusibeta]

here's an idea.. let them run their site the way they chose, you're still not understanding that there's nothing to investigate here.
be sorrier for thinking those standards matter enough to rub it in the site owners face.

Can we ban this clown for trolling already? He's Manosing. He's going round deflecting arguments, moving goalposts, erecting strawmen and essentially saying "fuck you if you don't agree with me".

 

[NervousXtian]

He's not telling him how to do his job. Did you even read his post?

Yes, and he's trying to tell him what he needs to write.

That's a pretty bullshit move to make.

 

[Osiris]

You didnt answer my question. Are you a gaming "journalist"?

He said earlier in the thread that he would also walk if one of his pieces was amended, so given that and the vitriol he's shown towards Rab in his posts and the whole "move on..." schtick I'd guess yes.

Probably for one of the worst offenders in the whole PR-as-journalism-lol in my opinion.

And yet he had the temerity to suggest his posts on this matter were 'unbiased', ethics at work, in realtime!

 

[Risette]

Yes, and he's trying to tell him what he needs to write.

That's a pretty bullshit move to make.

What he needs to write if he wants to prove us wrong.

He doesn't have to prove us wrong. We're not going to fire him.

 

[Lime]

Yes, and he's trying to tell him what he needs to write.

That's a pretty bullshit move to make.

No, s/he's pointing out the disparity between writing about "Chicken Leg Looks Like Masterchief's Helmet" and not this particular event. How can the former be considered worthy of news treatment, and not the latter?

 

[Oersted]

I didn't say it wasn't real news. I said that I'm not particularly interested in writing about it (and admittedly I've thought a lot more about this in the past hour or two than I have all week - this sort of topic just doesn't interest me all that much), and that it might not fit the website that employs me. We don't often cover media issues like this. Remember, not every gaming website has to cover every issue (and the web would sure be a boring place if they did). You don't have to agree; I just want to make my reasoning clear.

Please forgive me, but this sounds like a shoddy excuse.

 

[ColossalLazy]

He said earlier in the thread that he would also walk if one of his pieces was amended, so given that and the vitriol he's shown towards Rab in his posts and the whole "move on..." schtick I'd guess yes.

Probably for one of the worst offenders in the whole PR-as-journalism-lol in my opinion.

And yet he had the temerity to suggest his posts on this matter were 'unbiased', ethics at work, in realtime!

Thats the impression he is giving me. But I want him to confirm it or not.

 

[Risette]

Can we ban this clown for trolling already? He's Manosing. He's going round deflecting arguments, moving goalposts, erecting strawmen and essentially saying "fuck you if you don't agree with me".

This isn't the only thread he does that sort of shit in, either. Just flip through his post history.

 

[NervousXtian]

What he needs to write if he wants to prove us wrong.

He doesn't have to prove us wrong. We're not going to fire him.

He called him out because he didn't want to write a story on this, basically questioning his integrity.

He already gave his reasons for not wanting too. Honestly, what more do you want written?

 

[hammster]

Someone should put "standalone complex type issue" in the OP.

 

[Makonero]

It's interesting to me that the topic of journalistic ethics in games "isn't interesting" and "doesn't fit the audience." Aren't we the audience? And there is a post 71 pages long about this here. I think there's plenty of interest from the audience.

But none from the journalists. Because who wants to call out their friends or stop the money train? Who wants to be the "STOP HAVING FUN GUYS" person?

Only a person with personal ethics. If you don't have those, you can't have professional ethics either. It's easier for people to keep their heads down rather than go against the grain.

 

[L44]

A lot of you are seeming to forget that game journalists are people, They talk, eat and shit just like all of us. Just because the person in the Monster car gave me a T-shirt and a couple of drinks doesnt mean that I'll like Monster more; because when it gets down to it, I think Monster tastes terrible. While I realise thats hugely different to recieving promo gear that's worth hundreds of dollars, it's still the same basic principle. Just think, what would you do? All of you are hugely against this type of thing so wouldn't that mean that they are to?

 

[GillianSeed79]

Inside baseball: we usually have a healthy mixture of short and long stories. Short stories - like, say, a Square Enix sale - take roughly ten minutes to write. Long stories - like, say, a piece about the current state of SC2 or an exposé on Silicon Knights - take significantly longer. I imagine a story like this one (a story that would require a lot of thought, consideration, and reaching out to involved parties) would fall squarely into the latter category.

....It's just not necessarily the type of story I think fits with what our site is trying to do.

In Schreier's defense, he is right in that an actual long-form investigative story would probably take a little time to throw together. A lot of the "articles" on the issue so far have been op-eds at most, though there are some good ones.

You could do the quick and easy route of just recapping the timeline of events with a summary, but to actually try to get Florence, Wainwright, Keighley, an anonymous or former PR person and either an anonymous or former games journo on the record would take some time to put together.

As far as it not being the type of story that fits with the site, that's fine if that's your editorial opinion. I disagree with that opinion, but it's your perogative to decide what you think fits with the site. I do think, in general, it's a story anyone interested enough to consume videogame media would be really interested in.

 

[Boogybro]

Can we ban this clown for trolling already? He's Manosing. He's going round deflecting arguments, moving goalposts, erecting strawmen and essentially saying "fuck you if you don't agree with me".

I dunno, lemme check. I can't remember seeing a ban button in my control panel.

 

[Risette]

Most of you are seeming to forget that game journalists are people, They talk, eat and shit just like all of us. Just because the person in the Monster car gave me a T-shirt and a couple of drinks doesnt mean that I'll like Monster more; because when it gets down to it, I think Monster tastes terrible. While I realise thats hugely different to recieving promo gear that's worth hundreds of dollars, it's still the same basic principle. Just think, what would you do? All of you are hugely against this type of thing so wouldn't that mean that they are to?

Naive. Have you missed Shawn Elliot's excellent posts in this thread?

Or, the fact that they're people is exactly why you're wrong.

 

[jschreier]

Would you even be allowed to write an article like that, I wonder? (I don't expect an answer.)

Dunno! But I've been working at Kotaku for almost a year now, and I don't remember Stephen ever telling me "no you can't write this." He's talked me out of stories before, or told me that something probably wasn't worth my time, but I don't recall anything ever being censored.

 

[Branduil]

He called him out because he didn't want to write a story on this, basically questioning his integrity.

He already gave his reasons for not wanting too. Honestly, what more do you want written?

Are we not allowed to think someone doesn't have journalistic integrity? Do we have to respect everyone who claims the title of "journalist."

I don't really care who would write the article for Kotaku. It doesn't have to be a specific person. But not having anyone write one when they'll put articles up about all kinds of random meaningless crap makes them look like a joke, to be quite frank.

A lot of you are seeming to forget that game journalists are people, They talk, eat and shit just like all of us. Just because the person in the Monster car gave me a T-shirt and a couple of drinks doesnt mean that I'll like Monster more; because when it gets down to it, I think Monster tastes terrible. While I realise thats hugely different to recieving promo gear that's worth hundreds of dollars, it's still the same basic principle. Just think, what would you do? All of you are hugely against this type of thing so wouldn't that mean that they are to?

But the fact that they're people is exactly why they're susceptible to kind of psychological influence we're talking about.

You're basically saying that developers waste millions of dollars on PR that can never move the stoic game journalist ubermen.

 

[BigDes]

A lot of you are seeming to forget that game journalists are people, They talk, eat and shit just like all of us. Just because the person in the Monster car gave me a T-shirt and a couple of drinks doesnt mean that I'll like Monster more; because when it gets down to it, I think Monster tastes terrible. While I realise thats hugely different to recieving promo gear that's worth hundreds of dollars, it's still the same basic principle. Just think, what would you do? All of you are hugely against this type of thing so wouldn't that mean that they are to?

Literally the first rule of journalism is you do not accept gifts, especially not people who fall into your bailiwick.

 

[antitrop]

I feel bad for Geoff Keighley getting caught up in all of this. I genuinely believe he is one of the "good guys".

 

[NervousXtian]

No, s/he's pointing out the disparity between writing about "Chicken Leg Looks Like Masterchief's Helmet" and not this particular event. How can the former be considered worthy of news treatment, and not the latter?

Because that's what that site does.

 

[NoirVisage]

This isn't the only thread he does that sort of shit in, either. Just flip through his post history.

what the heck is this, because i don't agree with the pitchfork mob voicing a different perspective my post history needs to be scrutinized? i have people calling for me to be banned for dissenting? is this really whats good? for the record (sorry i missed where you asked) i wish i was a journalist of some sort, i had a facebook page that i wrote movie reviews that nobody read, but that's the extent.

 

[NintendoGal]

It's interesting to me that the topic of journalistic ethics in games "isn't interesting" and "doesn't fit the audience." Aren't we the audience? And there is a post 71 pages long about this here. I think there's plenty of interest from the audience.

But none from the journalists. Because who wants to call out their friends or stop the money train? Who wants to be the "STOP HAVING FUN GUYS" person?

Only a person with personal ethics. If you don't have those, you can't have professional ethics either. It's easier for people to keep their heads down rather than go against the grain.

And as I've mentioned earlier in the thread, whenever I have called people out, I get the cold shoulder etc. People don't like it when you shit on their free rides.

 

[Margalis]

Listen man, I think you're a decent guy, but you're being disingenuous if you're saying that this isn't real news. Show us your true investigative writing chops, and prove us wrong.

You are talking about a guy who said "I don't consider this a joke" directly after someone quoted him joking about it.

This is a very common theme. You see a lot of people circling the wagons, acting very dismissive, not engaging the topic in any way except to laugh about it, and when called out they go "argh blargh I take this VERY SERIOUSLY!!!" - as if that is at all believable.

 

[EternalGamer]

A lot of you are seeming to forget that game journalists are people, They talk, eat and shit just like all of us. Just because the person in the Monster car gave me a T-shirt and a couple of drinks doesnt mean that I'll like Monster more; because when it gets down to it, I think Monster tastes terrible. While I realise thats hugely different to recieving promo gear that's worth hundreds of dollars, it's still the same basic principle. Just think, what would you do? All of you are hugely against this type of thing so wouldn't that mean that they are to?

Shawn Elliot communicated it best:

Pharmaceutical company companies extensively research physicians' hobbies and personal interests, send attractive spokespeople to "inform" said physicians about their products over three-star michelin meals and golf games. Without exception, these physicians insist that they are immune to unethical influence.

Corporations like Coca Cola spend $10 billion a year or more on advertising campaigns with messages that college undergrads -- here I'm speaking from experience as a former instructor -- unfailingly insist they're uniquely insusceptible to.

Either these corporations are somehow recklessly burning revenue by the billions and somehow raking in unprecedented profit despite the sheer stupidity of their business practices or people are prone to maintain flattering though entirely unrealistic images of themselves. Unfortunately for us, replicated psychology experiments point to pervasive self-deception. Fortunately for us, while it's practically impossible for us to accurately monitor our own self-interest, we're marvelous at pointing it out in others. And this is the why the appearance of impropriety matters so much.

Tomes of research on the topic are out there and anyone remotely interested in cognition will encounter the experiments again and again. For those unfamiliar with it I recommend starting here: http://www.amazon.com/Honest-Truth-D...ally+Ourselves

And

A teaser to generate interest in the topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=XBmJay_qdNc#!
Last edited by FartOfWar; Yesterday at 10:15 PM.

 

[HK-47]

RPS has their piece up.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/26/the-flare-path-blows-the-whistle/

Wow. What a shit, lightweight article.

 

[braves01]

Are we not allowed to think someone doesn't have journalistic integrity? Do we have to respect everyone who claims the title of "journalist."

I don't really care who would write the article for Kotaku. It doesn't have to be a specific person. But not having anyone write one when they'll put articles up about all kinds of random meaningless crap makes them look like a joke, to be quite frank.

They've published neogaf threads as articles before right? This seems like a thread that might actually deserve it.

 

[Oersted]

Dunno! But I've been working at Kotaku for almost a year now, and I don't remember Stephen ever telling me "no you can't write this." He's talked me out of stories before, or told me that something probably wasn't worth my time, but I don't recall anything ever being censored.

Once again. Would it be so wrong asking him for a official statement? You wouldn´t even have to say a statement on this whole topic. Just asking.

 

[SolidSnakex]

A lot of you are seeming to forget that game journalists are people, They talk, eat and shit just like all of us. Just because the person in the Monster car gave me a T-shirt and a couple of drinks doesnt mean that I'll like Monster more; because when it gets down to it, I think Monster tastes terrible. While I realise thats hugely different to recieving promo gear that's worth hundreds of dollars, it's still the same basic principle. Just think, what would you do? All of you are hugely against this type of thing so wouldn't that mean that they are to?

As we sat down to eat, a few guys at the table grumbled a bit about the guys who left for lunch with the PR team members. Someone said that those journalists were getting a great free meal somewhere, but that they "typically will pay it back with a glowing preview."

I didn't think much of it and chuckled at the comment, figuring it was more of a joke than anything. But sure enough, as embargoes lifted, the guys who went to lunch served up previews that were devoid of criticism that were also packed with bits of information that nobody else had access to at the event.

http://www.gamertheory.com/story.as...relationship+between+games+journalism+and+PR/

That's just one example, but there are plenty of others in this thread.

 

[Branduil]

I feel bad for Geoff Keighley getting caught up in all of this. I genuinely believe he is one of the "good guys".

The whole point of this discussion is why "good guys" are doing bad things.

Hint: it's the constant attempts at bribery.

 

[jschreier]

You are talking about a guy who said "I don't consider this a joke" directly after someone quoted him joking about it.

This is a very common theme. You see a lot of people circling the wagons, acting very dismissive, not engaging the topic in any way except to laugh about it, and when called out they go "argh blargh I take this VERY SERIOUSLY!!!" - as if that is at all believable.

I have like 40 tweets joking about the presidential debate. Do you think I consider the presidential debate a joke? Come on, man. Most of my Twitter feed consists of jokes, because I try to avoid having serious conversations on a platform where messages are limited to 140 characters a pop. Did you not see me write my personal opinions about what happened?

 

[Lime]

Because that's what that site does.

Kotaku doesn't report on the news related to video games? Huh, I didn't know that.