Yeah, semantics. Fargo pitched W2 to publisher, they said no. He pitched it to fans, they said yes.
No, it isn't. Are you even thinking of the size of the AAA studios?
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InXile's Torment successor gets a name
- Thread starter Lancehead
- Start date
Yeah, semantics. Fargo pitched W2 to publisher, they said no. He pitched it to fans, they said yes.
No, it isn't. Are you even thinking of the size of the AAA studios?
The argument presented is that something like W2 is appealing to AAA guys.
Missed that distinction, my bad. I thought we were talking about publishers not just AAA publishers. Carry on I guess.
there are plenty of investors in Europe who can drop 1-3 million $ on such project. But all money come with strings attached. Fargo was a publiser himself for a very long time and I guess he doesn't like to be held accountable, i.e. being told what to do and how to do in this particular case. Because when people give you money they will tell you what to do and how to do. Fargo doesn't like that. He likes running things. So he'd prefer to find an alternative venue for financing. Also as Frogacuda has noticed Kickstarter leads to more freedom, less risks and more profits and as a rational publisher and a developer Fargo can't ignore this.
If I was Fargo I'd have done the same in the blink of an eye. He'll do it closer to WII release - after positive previews/beta and so on. If there is positive buzz about WII before the release he'll do it. But if there is not enough of it he might wait for the release.
If I was Fargo I'd have done the same in the blink of an eye. He'll do it closer to WII release - after positive previews/beta and so on. If there is positive buzz about WII before the release he'll do it. But if there is not enough of it he might wait for the release.
Mark Morgan confirmed to the sequel is fucking awesome! His Torment soundtrack is timeless and one of the few musical scores of Western games that is unique.
Torment Main Theme
Deionarra's Theme
Annah's Theme
Sigil Theme
Sigil Battle
Trias Theme
Fortress of Regrets
I can't wait to see what he'll come up with for a new Torment.
Torment Main Theme
Deionarra's Theme
Annah's Theme
Sigil Theme
Sigil Battle
Trias Theme
Fortress of Regrets
I can't wait to see what he'll come up with for a new Torment.
I think Avellone might join them at some point of KS campaign. Worked well last time, lol.
A Black Falcon
Member
I'm really looking forward to this, for sure... as for the criticism of using Kickstarter, though, really, I think it's off base. First, if people don't like it, they won't donate. Plenty of games have failed to fund, because people aren't convinced that the game will be interesting enough (see Wildman, for example, it looks doomed at the current rate). And second, what's so bad about getting fans to fund the game? How is this so much worse than getting a publisher to do it? And anyway, no publisher would fund a game like this one, or Wasteland 2, either. If you think that they would, well, you must also think that Brian Fargo is lying, when he made clear that no publisher had the slightest interest in Wasteland 2... and no, that it funded doesn't make the game a success.
Unique? I mean, it's amazing and great, but unique... it's an evolution of Mark Morgan's work in the NetStorm and Fallout soundtracks, really.
Netstorm's music is amazing (as with the game itself!), and you can REALLY tell that it's from teh same guy who did the Fallout 1/2 and Torment soundtracks -- there are lots of similarities and even reused tracks/segments. I don't mean this as a criticism, Netstorm, the Fallouts, and Torment have some of my favorite videogame soundtracks, but it's true.
Netstorm - Sun
Netstorm - Thunder
Netstorm - Serenity
etc. The Torment main theme comes from part of the Netstorm soundtrack too.
Your calculations are wrong, because he's put some of his own money into this game too, at least a six figure number's worth, maybe more. Maybe you think that the money he got in the Kickstarter made up for that and more, and paid for all development costs? But how can you know that? Maybe that just paid part of the costs, and he's covering the rest of it himself, hoping that the game does well enough to make up for the difference. Do you know for sure that it's revenue-positive from day one? (And that's presuming that it releases on time and on budget, of course! The game isn't finished yet after all.)
There's risk though, first in whether the game will fund at all -- and they do not all fund -- and second in wehther, once it releases, if it'll actually sell beyond the number of the people who funded you... if you get funded but then the game doesn't sell too much, I doubt that people would consider it too successful. As long as it breaks even not a failure, perhaps, but certainly not much of a success.
I'm sure publishers have some degree of interest, but with the relatively small amounts of money Kickstarter can raise, not too much interest. I mean, it's only a million or two dollars, max. That's a quite small budget game today, for a major production.
Unique? I mean, it's amazing and great, but unique... it's an evolution of Mark Morgan's work in the NetStorm and Fallout soundtracks, really.
Netstorm's music is amazing (as with the game itself!), and you can REALLY tell that it's from teh same guy who did the Fallout 1/2 and Torment soundtracks -- there are lots of similarities and even reused tracks/segments. I don't mean this as a criticism, Netstorm, the Fallouts, and Torment have some of my favorite videogame soundtracks, but it's true.
Netstorm - Sun
Netstorm - Thunder
Netstorm - Serenity
etc. The Torment main theme comes from part of the Netstorm soundtrack too.
Last Hearth
Member
Publishers *invest* in games.
Kickstarter participants *donates* money. It's a charity.
I agree that they should use the profits they make on W2 to fund their next game, or they should just give away the game for free after they make it. Otherwise they are really exploiting the goodwill of people for their own gain.
Kickstarter participants *donates* money. It's a charity.
I agree that they should use the profits they make on W2 to fund their next game, or they should just give away the game for free after they make it. Otherwise they are really exploiting the goodwill of people for their own gain.
Wiktor
Member
I don't think you understand how Kickstarter works. People who pledged are getting the game for free, so there's no place to call it charity.
And why would they give out the game they made for free to people who didn't pledge?
don't bring logic into this thread
It can work provided they actually start doing great pitches with gameplay demoes, and not just "I'm an industry vet give me money".
I think in general the Kickstarter hype has slowed down, so maybe they are waiting until they have some really good stuff to show off before campaigning.
Sure seems that way based on what they seem to be doing, gathering team members and building the setting before asking for money.
Sure seems that way based on what they seem to be doing, gathering team members and building the setting before asking for money.
ElectricThunder
Member
The name is as expected considering the original being meant as a mutual callout/descriptor ("Setting/Torment" in one order or another) and just calling it Torment would be generic to the point of counter-productive.
Good deal on the music man, though they've mighty big shoes to fill in terms of meeting or exceeding the ending credits theme as being one of the best and most fitting I've ever seen in an RPG or otherwise right up there with Castlevania 64 and scant few others.
There is no real issue with them going to the fans via KS again, as this is a new project with new people involved and still quite in the spirit of the thing even on top of the anti-publisher stance in the traditional sense Fargo has adopted in general---I'd guess March/April'ish at the earliest since that is supposed to be The Time when things ramp up on KS historically and various failed KS's are aiming to try again during.
Good deal on the music man, though they've mighty big shoes to fill in terms of meeting or exceeding the ending credits theme as being one of the best and most fitting I've ever seen in an RPG or otherwise right up there with Castlevania 64 and scant few others.
There is no real issue with them going to the fans via KS again, as this is a new project with new people involved and still quite in the spirit of the thing even on top of the anti-publisher stance in the traditional sense Fargo has adopted in general---I'd guess March/April'ish at the earliest since that is supposed to be The Time when things ramp up on KS historically and various failed KS's are aiming to try again during.
someguyinahat
Member
With a name like that, I'm expecting the trailers to be a fat guy in a chair on webcam lip-synching some falsetto Eastern European pop.
MightyHedgehog
Member
The name's okay. Not sure why some are down on going back to KS when people get to vote with their wallets on it. No one's taking advantage of anyone that doesn't want to put their money in for a copy plus extras.
Many people pledged for Wasteland 2 despite not knowing whether or not inXile is able to make a good game. Fargo's a nice guy, but he and his company haven't really released a lot of noteable stuff in a long time. The last game worth mentioning was the Bard's Tale remake, which... well, let's say some people liked it and some didn't.
Giving him one time the benefit of doubt is okay, but having to pledge for a second kickstarter before knowing whether or not Wasteland 2 is actually a good game... That's a bit much.
Also, I'd have really wanted to see Avellone/Obsidian going back to Torment. InXile doing it instead was kind of a disappointment to me, which got softened by knowing that it least will get made. But when they need a second kickstarter anyway, it could also have been something like a second Obsidian kickstarter when the development on Eternity comes to a close. I'd have preferred that. ;(
By definition they are taking advantage of people, though. They're offloading all the risk onto the consumer, and then pocketing all the profit for themselves. I can see why that would be appealing to them, but why would you, as a consumer, give them one red cent?
The answer, of course, is that people give to Kickstarter because the developer needs it, and because they want to see them get the resources to make a better product. But when that's no longer the case, there is no reason for anyone to give. I would argue that inXile has a few other avenues to pursue to get money for this, and they should do that before asking for another hand-out.
I think they're smart enough to know that a potential backlash is very real. I don't think we'll be seeing the kickstarter before Wasteland 2 is nearly finished.
Castor Krieg
Banned
Nobody is forcing you to buy it. How is it different with buying a game that turned out to be shit?
"Tides" supposedly has a significant meaning in the setting.
There's too big a gap between producing a game and it bringing in the sort of money needed to finance a second game, so the studio has to secure funding to bridge that gap or lay off staff. So Inexile are left with three options 1) another kickstarter to fund pre-production or the entire next game 2) selling the concept to a publisher (this would be easier after a W2 or Project Eternity comes out and sells like gangbusters) or 3) mothballing the studio until W2 produces enough profit to self fund.
Now if Wasteland 2 sells like gangbusters then Fargo would have a cheek to come back to the kick-starter well for a 3rd time but you can understand the need for an immediate project to keep the studio going until W2 brings in the dosh.
Now if Wasteland 2 sells like gangbusters then Fargo would have a cheek to come back to the kick-starter well for a 3rd time but you can understand the need for an immediate project to keep the studio going until W2 brings in the dosh.
Tides of Torment would be a little better, and just Tides would be pretty great. It's that fantasy noun, tacked onto the end like a exclamation point covered in pimples and a frayed Dragon Ball Z t-shirt.
MightyHedgehog
Member
What profit can they have from the meager totals that cannot possibly fund an entire game's development? Yes, the person deciding to pledge is risking some money, but that's the case with every single KS or even a standard preorder of a far off game or any $60 purchase of an untested new game. Buyer beware, but that's obvious. I trust the names behind this to make something better than any random unknowns. So, yes, I'll gladly fucking pledge a minimum amount to this upcoming KS project because this game simply won't get made with these people any other way. I get that you're skeptical, but I don't have that problem. If I like what I see and hear, I'll pledge as I've already done so for well over thirty video game projects on KS so far. The way I see it, it's far better than the predictable, unambitious stuff that we get fed to us from the traditional publisher/developer channels.
The real answer is that people give to KS projects because they want what they're being offered. You cannot be certain that they don't need it, especially in this case, where the previous KS title isn't even completed for sale. You don't know for certain that they can get this game funded outside of KS. Again, I can see where you're coming from, but I just don't feel bothered by what you fear. KS isn't a charity nor is it anything but a way to raise money for a proposed product or service. You don't have to pledge and neither does anyone that has similar doubts. Again, it's being voted on by the people. Let them vote.
Because if I bought a game that turned out to be shit, I at least had the information available to me to avoid it. Here it's a total shot in the dark.
In any event, my point is not that this game might be bad, or that people shouldn't get it. It's that literally the ONLY benefit to Kickstarter is that it gives money to people that need it to make games they couldn't make otherwise.
If you take that away by using Kickstarter to fund games that can be easily funded by other means, ALL you do is pay more for something with no knowledge of the product. There's literally nothing in it for you anymore.
So yeah, no one's forcing me. But is someone forcing you? Because if not, why the hell would you donate to this? It'll just get made either way, unless Fargo decides he's a cunt who only wants to spend other people's money.
pmuch, this is all that matters.
Someday when all the cool sounding titles are taken up we'll get an amazing game called 'Shit'
Wait and see.
Look, if Wasteland 2 ships, and it's awesome and everyone loves it, but no one buys it after it's out... THEN, ok, start another Kickstarter and I might even give.
But that's not going to happen. The game has a decent amount of hype behind it, and if they sell like 300,000 or something modest, they'll have plenty to make another game with. If they don't manage to do that, it's probably because the game came out and got shitty reviews. In which case, I don't think I'd want to give to another.
I don't know why people get this idea in their head that the only people who are interested in these games are backers. Most people would never pledge to a Kickstarter for a game that only exists on paper. You're going to see a lot more people buy this game once it's out.
If that was the only concern, they'd just buy it when it came out. There'd be no reason for Kickstarter at all. Most KS games end up launched for cheaper than what backers paid too. So if they just want to play the game, they'd have to be real morons to pledge.
EXACTLY. You give because you believe that. However I think that is clearly not true, and since he hasn't even TRIED anything else, I see no reason to believe otherwise.
He pitched Wasteland 2 for years and failed. So he had made the case that KS was his last resort. This time it's his first resort, and that's a very different bill of goods to be selling. Unless they try and fail to get funded another way, I don't want to help. I'll let someone else do it, and I'll enjoy the game if it comes out good.
The issue is this: Kickstarter kickstarted this guy's career again. He's making a game a good number of folks are interested in and that's awesome. His budget is far larger than the original estimate would be -- there's definitely profit built in. Beyond that, there will be a good chunk of people who just buy it at release via Steam/GMG/Amazon/whatever.
Kickstarter is meant to help get creators started and their projects off the ground. It shouldn't be about helping established groups and projects. That's already happened. This is just going to the well over and over and it's gross and not at all in line with the concept behind Kickstarter.
Kickstarter is meant to help get creators started and their projects off the ground. It shouldn't be about helping established groups and projects. That's already happened. This is just going to the well over and over and it's gross and not at all in line with the concept behind Kickstarter.
And what do the staff of inexile do until the money comes rolling in? Preproduction takes time and money, and without the necessary preproduction 4/5ths of the studio will be twiddling their thumbs until it's done or more likely laid off. You build a team to do a game, and if there's no game ready to go straight after you lose the team. F
As I said Fargo would have a cheek to go back a 3rd time after a financially successful W2, but if he wants his team to keep working he needs something ready to go immediately after W2, which means he can't wait around for the W2 money to roll in.
Forsaken82
Member
Mark Morgan Confirmed?! Looks like i will finally kickstart a project!
Forsaken82
Member
I use the main theme in my 3D Modeling Demo Reel.
Spectacular Dr Dawg
Member
I think just Torment would have been a better name.
I think he wants to set up another team to make this game but he can't use the profits from Wasteland 2 since it's not out yet.
I'm actually fine with the developers getting the better deal in this case because there's not a whole lot of complex RPGs being made outside of kickstarter and I want the developers behind those games to prosper so these kinds of games don't suddenly disappear again.
I think he wants to set up another team to make this game but he can't use the profits from Wasteland 2 since it's not out yet.
I'm actually fine with the developers getting the better deal in this case because there's not a whole lot of complex RPGs being made outside of kickstarter and I want the developers behind those games to prosper so these kinds of games don't suddenly disappear again.
As exciting as it sounds, ill wait for the release this time, no point on pleding to it when the company has financial stability after all they got for WL2. There is also the possibility of the game being complete shit despite looking so great like it happened with Strike Suit Zero
This is a question for their producers, but inXile has games out, they're selling a lot of Bard's Tale on iOS/Android, and they can finance some pre-production costs. Transitioning from one project to the next is always a question producers have to work out, but it's not like they don't have any income to work with.
Conciliator
Banned
As a general rule you should not put the nonsensical name of the fantasy universe you just made up into your game title, but at least it's mostly pronounceable.
It has a lot of the original idea men behind Torment also on this game. Colin McComb being the main one.
A Black Falcon
Member
So the problem is that he seems to want to have more than one team, but you think he should have only one team, and fire anyone working on pre-production for this game once any funding he has runs out, because Kickstarting a second game is so horribly exploitative? Uh, doesn't sound like the best idea to me...
Sure, of course the expectation is for these games to sell to more people than the backers. And as as I said companies always put some of their own money into these games as well, they're certainly expecting at least some amount of success if they want to make their money back... (And of course, remember that all of those physical rewards have a significant cost as well. For instance, W2 was offering a boxed copy of the game at just $50. Other major Kickstarters with boxed options, like Double Fine Adventure, Project Eternity, Hero-U, etc. all had $75 to $100 for the first boxed option...)
I can't think of even one reason why you would think this. That he didn't make one single RPG in the decade between Interplay's fall and the W2 kickstarter, and that it will require Kickstarter to get this game made too, should say everything you could possibly want to know about what big publishers think of this kind of game. That a couple of kickstarters W2, PE) got 2-3 million dollars does not mean that the games are successes in the market! It means that there are more people who like these kinds of games than the publishers might have thought, but still, these are small-budget things by their standards. They obviously think that the numbers aren't worth it, and have ever since consoles took over the North American development market in the early '00s. That you think that Kickstarter might actually change that is ... optimistic. Wildly, crazily optimistic, and it goes against every fact we know about what kinds of things the publishers are funding.
Maybe if the games release and sell huge numbers of copies they might change their tune, but not before then!
What, you think that he's had no interest in a Torment sequel for 15 years, but just suddenly decided to do this now because of demand? And you think that publishers would actually want to FUND this? Uh, no. Absolutely no way, on either point. If you were right, this game would exist already, years ago probably.
Also, why are you so opposed to people-funding games? I mean, the publisher model is what got PC gaming into this mess. And you think that it's just going to magically turn around and care about PC exclusives again, when it hasn't for over a decade now, just because of a few million dollars in Kickstarters? That's... not likely, unfortunately. It would be nice if it was, but it's not, at all.
Unless you've got an Angry Birds on your hands, I have a very hard time believing that iOS sales could possibly help much at all with funding large-scale RPGs...
No, InXile has been financially stable for a long time. They own a number of IPs, and get a steady stream of income from them. If Fargo had not chosen to go the Kickstarter way, they'd have remained a mid-small development studio. They still get steady income from Bard's Tale sales, but that's not enough to maintain two, albeit small, teams.
I fail to see how this violates the concept or spirit of kickstarter. It's there to help projects get funding. It's not there to start someone's career.
DiscoJer
Member
I think that's overstating things. Their list of games they've published is
http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/company/74900.html
Mostly iOS stuff. Only one modern generation game that seems to have mostly been ignored (Hunted: The Demon's Forge from 2011), and a remake of Choplifter
The Bard's Tale came out 7 years ago, I doubt they are getting much out of it these days. Sure it probably sells a few thousand copies a year on GoG and Steam, but I can't imagine that would be enough to pay for the salary of one person, much less a team.
Bard's Tale is a huge success financially. It still sells a lot, and tops iOS/Android sales every now and again.
You're missing the point. I'm saying they have a number of IPs that they could've fallen back on, they could've of worked with publishers making shitty games, while the low stream of income from iOS, android sales gives them some security. I'm not saying they can survive on that income alone. In fact, I said they can't.
You're missing the point. I'm saying they have a number of IPs that they could've fallen back on, they could've of worked with publishers making shitty games, while the low stream of income from iOS, android sales gives them some security. I'm not saying they can survive on that income alone. In fact, I said they can't.
Brother None
Member
inXile does have a fairly steady stream of income. It all gets put into Torment pre-production and Wasteland 2. It's helpful, for sure, and in this case helps a lot in keeping a small pre-production team together to prep the Torment idea and pitch, but it's not enough to create a proper production cycle of starting preproduction of the next game once the first game's preproduction is wrapped up.
How much of his own money do you think Fargo has? Enough to run Torment's pre-production with a full staff for 6 months? No. Right now a small team is working on it and inXile is funding that from their own means. Publishers aren't interested in working with inXile, period. This isn't "just getting made either way", if the Kickstarter fails they will have to mothball it for a year and then hope the WL2 money is enough to fund it and that they can still get the same people involved.
You are making a lot of assumptions here, and I can't say many of them are very accurate. inXile does need this money to put this game into full pre-production. They won't collapse without it, but it will create bad team-flow situation where they have to let go of their writing/art staff and then just hope they're still around come Wasteland 2's release. Nor can they assume anything on Wasteland 2's sales or loan money now assuming a windfall, that would be unethical in a business sense.
I get your concern, Frogacuda (and like the nickname), but it doesn't quite match up with reality. Could Fargo mothball this title until Wasteland 2's release and roll into it then? Yes. But that's not a problem-free decision, in production flow logic. He does need to finance this somehow. Kickstarter is a natural choice for him because he doesn't quite see it as you do: Kickstarter isn't "free money", it's a preorder system where on average the return per digital copy offered is actually very low, from a business perspective. He likes the system because he likes having backers involved (and will invest more in managing this side since inXile's effort here have been too weak, and they know that).
Could he get a publisher to back it? Honestly? No, he couldn't. Nor would I want him too, coz a publisher would mess this up. Do I want him to put inXile heavily in debt assuming a windfall from Wasteland 2? From a consumer perspective, sure, that's nice for us. As a company, to act like that is borderline unethical, and he'd be gambling with his employee's livelihoods based on sales numbers that we just don't know right now. Sure, Wasteland 2 might do well, but we don't know, because we haven't seen Kickstarter games released yet. He could have done that for Wasteland 2 as well, I suppose, by that logic he didn't "need" to Kickstart it, he could've put a double mortgage on his own house, go heavily into debt personally and with his company. I didn't see anyone demand he should. There's no easy credit lines available in a risky industry like gaming. Kickstarter really is pretty much his only option, that or fire the preproduction team and hope for the best come Wasteland 2's release.
So...yeah. Concern is valid, and personally I'm sympathetic to people who go "I'll just wait until I can play Wasteland 2 before looking at Torment", but you're painting it as dubious when it's really pretty straightforward. It's a simple, honest proposal for money they do actually *need*.
And they are working it out, by getting financing for pre-production of the next title and rolling it over.
How much of his own money do you think Fargo has? Enough to run Torment's pre-production with a full staff for 6 months? No. Right now a small team is working on it and inXile is funding that from their own means. Publishers aren't interested in working with inXile, period. This isn't "just getting made either way", if the Kickstarter fails they will have to mothball it for a year and then hope the WL2 money is enough to fund it and that they can still get the same people involved.
You are making a lot of assumptions here, and I can't say many of them are very accurate. inXile does need this money to put this game into full pre-production. They won't collapse without it, but it will create bad team-flow situation where they have to let go of their writing/art staff and then just hope they're still around come Wasteland 2's release. Nor can they assume anything on Wasteland 2's sales or loan money now assuming a windfall, that would be unethical in a business sense.
I get your concern, Frogacuda (and like the nickname), but it doesn't quite match up with reality. Could Fargo mothball this title until Wasteland 2's release and roll into it then? Yes. But that's not a problem-free decision, in production flow logic. He does need to finance this somehow. Kickstarter is a natural choice for him because he doesn't quite see it as you do: Kickstarter isn't "free money", it's a preorder system where on average the return per digital copy offered is actually very low, from a business perspective. He likes the system because he likes having backers involved (and will invest more in managing this side since inXile's effort here have been too weak, and they know that).
Could he get a publisher to back it? Honestly? No, he couldn't. Nor would I want him too, coz a publisher would mess this up. Do I want him to put inXile heavily in debt assuming a windfall from Wasteland 2? From a consumer perspective, sure, that's nice for us. As a company, to act like that is borderline unethical, and he'd be gambling with his employee's livelihoods based on sales numbers that we just don't know right now. Sure, Wasteland 2 might do well, but we don't know, because we haven't seen Kickstarter games released yet. He could have done that for Wasteland 2 as well, I suppose, by that logic he didn't "need" to Kickstart it, he could've put a double mortgage on his own house, go heavily into debt personally and with his company. I didn't see anyone demand he should. There's no easy credit lines available in a risky industry like gaming. Kickstarter really is pretty much his only option, that or fire the preproduction team and hope for the best come Wasteland 2's release.
So...yeah. Concern is valid, and personally I'm sympathetic to people who go "I'll just wait until I can play Wasteland 2 before looking at Torment", but you're painting it as dubious when it's really pretty straightforward. It's a simple, honest proposal for money they do actually *need*.
And they are working it out, by getting financing for pre-production of the next title and rolling it over.
If what Brother None has said is true then Fargo did a mistake of starting pre-preproduction this early. But may be beta of W2 will be a success and gather positive word of mouth so who knows.
He'll fail if he tries to kickstart it in the next 3 months or so.
He'll fail if he tries to kickstart it in the next 3 months or so.