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WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis

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Thraktor

Member
J1 looks like it might actually be two elements to me. Split down the middle. But it's like reading tea leaves.

It's definitely one "block". When I was making the labelled version of the photo it was very clear where one block ends and the other begins (you can see the greyish boundaries when you zoom in on the full size die photo). There are some things that look like seams, but are actually artefacts of the fact that the die photo is composed of a large number of small photos stitched together, and this is what's in the middle of J1 (just scroll up and down and you'll see it the whole way up the photo).

Now, that's not to say it doesn't hold two logically separate components, but it's one solid block of logic.

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, the ratio of the proposed Interpolators to SPUs is a good point to raise. I simply don't know enough to say how these things usually scale. I'd say we shouldn't assume it's a linear relationship with this little to go on, though. Even if they don't usually scale the way we see here, who's to say Nintendo didn't have their own reasons for including all of them? It's something worth looking into, definitely.

In regards to the size of J1, that's another curiosity. I can only guess, but perhaps it has something to do with how the data is passed from the dispatch unit to the interpolators. If we assume that's what they are, in the old RV770 design, all the interpolators border the dispatch unit. Here, only one does. The intricacies of die layout may have prevented it. So perhaps that one has some extra logic on board to make up for this. I'm in over my head already with this stuff, though. So I'll stop there. :p

I don't think the S blocks have too much logic to be texture caches. Take a look at the texture caches on Llano and RV770. They need logic to keep doing what they do automatically.

You might be right on S. I think the equivalent blocks on RV770 also contain the logic and wiring for the Data Request Bus and Crossbar, but I suppose the same thing could be true here.

Your hypothesis for the size of J1 also seems reasonable.
 
Yeah, the J units are weird. Actually, almost every block that isn't a shader cluster is weird.

I think a good question would be: If someone wanted to improve GPUs, not bound by PC conventions and not general purpose, what would he do? And by "improve", I don't necessarily mean "make it faster".
Good question. I recall someone in this thread suggesting things like dual tessellation units, but I'm not sure how feasible nor effective that would be. IIRC, the only customizations hinted by insiders are related to lighting and another involving saving texture memory.

Pretty sure it also has to do with the competition; say they had "free vsync" via a custom built scanline renderer; chances are, they don't want Microsoft or Sony investing on implementing those same features hence they'll omit it since it should be transparent (although I'm not so sure that's at place). Some specifics, breakthroughs or shortcuts and their reason for being so might still be under wraps; at least until their competitors finish their spec, it's Nintendo I dunno but they should be as secretive regarding internal tech as they are when it comes to keep games and hardware close to their chest. But of course, Iwata also said the policy now was full disclosure and they should go for it, fact is; either their documentation and perhaps SDK is incomplete (might not be fully ready yet) or they might be holding out something.

Either awy at this point I wouldn't be surprised if even AMD/ATi isn't 100% sure of what's in the die seeing some changes and layout weren't implemented by them.
Good post. That was my thoughts on the subject as well.
 

IdeaMan

My source is my ass!
Do you think or have your sources told you that the GPU definitely has "secret sauce" or "Nintendo Magic" fused to the hardware (Fixed Functions)?

lol, this thread.....so much speculation you gotta love it.

If by "secret sauce", people think of ray tracing or even such an amount of fixed functions that it could free, let's say 300gflop of calculation power from the programmable part of the GPU, then no, i haven't heard that at all.
 
If by "secret sauce", people think of ray tracing or even such an amount of fixed functions that it could free, let's say 300gflop of calculation power from the programmable part of the GPU, then no, i haven't heard that at all.

300 gflops of fixed functions? Thats insane lol. Even if it has, it may only be 50 max. and thats already alot.
 

IdeaMan

My source is my ass!
Well, of course my previous answer is an exaggeration, but it seems some people put too much faith in the unknown part of the GPU so it's better to stress that this dreamy scenario is unlikely, otherwise, having to program half or even a third of your game to be managed by specialized fixed thingies on the GPU would be something that would have been leaked.
 
Well, of course my previous answer is an exaggeration, but it seems some people put too much faith in the unknown part of the GPU so it's better to stress that this dreamy scenario is unlikely, otherwise, having to program half or even a third of your game to be managed by specialized fixed thingies on the GPU would be something that would have been leaked.

IF theres ANYTHING hinting at fixed functions than its the fact that most Wii U games )Even Nintendoland) do great shadows. Lego City and Trine 2 do too.

So the only likely scenario is that they have some sort of fixed function lighting going on. Wich should maybe onl be a few gflops at best.
 
IF theres ANYTHING hinting at fixed functions than its the fact that most Wii U games )Even Nintendoland) do great shadows. Lego City and Trine 2 do too.

So the only likely scenario is that they have some sort of fixed function lighting going on. Wich should maybe onl be a few gflops at best.

Hmm, isn't the idea of fixed function lighting/shadow effects from some Iwata Asks session? Although it wasn't clear if it was a compiler thing or hw thing...
 

IdeaMan

My source is my ass!
so what are your developer friend saying. i remember a while back you said that you had some info about the CPU and i dont recall you ever saying aything. any update on what your developer contact are getting out of the hardware?

About the CPU, I think i've said it on IRC, even on GAF. Basically that between 20 and 40% of the CPU wasn't used in some games, before the developers noticed it (rather lately). It's a software > CPU problem, meaning it's the way they put the CPU to use with their engine. But it's off-topic, i'll detail further this issue on the future CPU die thread :p
 

IdeaMan

My source is my ass!
ok cool. dont mean to go off topic again but could you see any situation where the Wii U gives us a PS3 situation? let me explain. for the most part we know the 360 is a better balanced designed console than ps3... but because of the cell architecture sony developers were able to produce games that were visually better than anything microsoft and 3rd party devs created. Could we see a sitaution where because the way the Wii U is deisgned that Nintendo pulls off things that just shouldnt be done... or we think couldnt be done on the console? sorry you can PM me with answer i dont want to go off topic. it just seems like ps3 had the same problems running games early on in it lifecycle but sony 1st and 2nd party showed it was more than capable.... im hoping this is what happens with the Wii u.

Yes i think it's definitively an architecture with a rather sizable learning curve, see my example of a studio who barely made their game run at 30fps main screen + second screen at a certain time, and reached 60fps + more effects, etc, a few months later (with a small hardware revision and a few new SDK). Well, even Iwata hinted at that recently with its "second generation games". /end off-topic, back to the ROP's !
 

Darryl

Banned
I'm still trying to figure out why the Wii U GPU functions are under NDA.........What purpose does this serve to Nintendo even after the release of the console?

there are other people out there besides Sony/MS. it isn't all about the short-term console war. they might not want Samsung, Apple, or one of the other tech giants (maybe chinese) compiling excessive information that can be used to compete with them.
 

Mithos

Member
About the CPU, I think i've said it on IRC, even on GAF. Basically that between 20 and 40% of the CPU wasn't used in some games, before the developers noticed it (rather lately). It's a software > CPU problem, meaning it's the way they put the CPU to use with their engine. But it's off-topic, i'll detail further this issue on the future CPU die thread :p

I remember when we had this talk on IRC, and have been waiting a loooong time for clarifications ;p
 

tipoo

Banned
About the CPU, I think i've said it on IRC, even on GAF. Basically that between 20 and 40% of the CPU wasn't used in some games, before the developers noticed it (rather lately). It's a software > CPU problem, meaning it's the way they put the CPU to use with their engine. But it's off-topic, i'll detail further this issue on the future CPU die thread :p

Did you have a writeup on that or anything? I'd like to read it if there was one, but if there isn't and you were going to write something for the CPU thread anyways I don't want to bug you. But I'm curious about that.

It seems odd to me, from what we know it seems nothing near as bizarre as the Cell, and in an Iwata Asks one of them said the CPU was specifically made to have easier up front power for developers.

Edit: It was this one
It turned out to be a CPU without any strange habits—one that runs just the way you expect. All right, Kitano-san?

http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wiiu/console/0/3
 
I'm not sure why people would interpret it otherwise. Almost seems like that part was mentioned to explicitly clear confusion and yet people are choosing to interpret it in different ways

I think I can see why some would say that, but it seems weird to mention that when they thought they needed Wii parts and didn't, they still incorporated Wii parts.

Hmm, isn't the idea of fixed function lighting/shadow effects from some Iwata Asks session? Although it wasn't clear if it was a compiler thing or hw thing...

No that came up for a little while in one of the WUSTs when speculating about the notion that Nintendo may have used Flipper/Hollywood's design as an influence. Later on Li Mu Bai made a post on B3D.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1634440#post1634440

There are certain visual aspects, such as lighting, that are very important to Nintendo. I have heard that, much like the Flipper, Nintendo has incorporated at least partially a portion of the same design philosophies into the Wii U chipset. Features that “automagically” appear during shader code implementation.

I would still assume specific coding is needed to implement something like this.

ok cool. dont mean to go off topic again but could you see any situation where the Wii U gives us a PS3 situation? let me explain. for the most part we know the 360 is a better balanced designed console than ps3... but because of the cell architecture sony developers were able to produce games that were visually better than anything microsoft and 3rd party devs created. Could we see a sitaution where because the way the Wii U is deisgned that Nintendo pulls off things that just shouldnt be done... or we think couldnt be done on the console? sorry you can PM me with answer i dont want to go off topic. it just seems like ps3 had the same problems running games early on in it lifecycle but sony 1st and 2nd party showed it was more than capable.... im hoping this is what happens with the Wii u.

IMO and based on a discussion I prompted on B3D at one time dealing with PS4 and Xbox 3, Nintendo seems to be going through having to put together new documentation and dev tools for their HD transition. And this is the biggest issue right now. Like one of the posters said at that time, you're only as good as your tools. It seems PS3 had the same trouble early on. We've seen quite a few cases of devs mentioning they had to learn things on their own with Wii U. I don't see it as intentional by Nintendo, but I do see it as frustrating because Nintendo already has enough going against them whether deserved or not and it can be considered reason to impact the possibility of future games again whether deserved or not.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
About the CPU, I think i've said it on IRC, even on GAF. Basically that between 20 and 40% of the CPU wasn't used in some games, before the developers noticed it (rather lately). It's a software > CPU problem, meaning it's the way they put the CPU to use with their engine. But it's off-topic, i'll detail further this issue on the future CPU die thread :p

Where is this CPU die thread? I cannot locate it.
 

Thraktor

Member
Where is this CPU die thread? I cannot locate it.

It'll be made as soon as we get the CPU die photo.

I added a link to the Flipper die photo in the OP (as there doesn't seem to be a Hollywood one in the wild), and I also added a link to this, which I just put together:

latteflippercomparison1.jpg


It's intended to show the size of the Flipper die (and the components on it) if manufactured at the same 40nm process as Latte. Might be some use in identifying which (if any) blocks on the Flipper die might be replicated on Latte.
 

LeleSocho

Banned
It'll be made as soon as we get the CPU die photo.

I added a link to the Flipper die photo in the OP (as there doesn't seem to be a Hollywood one in the wild), and I also added a link to this, which I just put together:

latteflippercomparison.jpg


It's intended to show the size of the Flipper die (and the components on it) if manufactured at the same 40nm process as Latte. Might be some use in identifying which (if any) blocks on the Flipper die might be replicated on Latte.

I think is less confusing if you write 40nm near Flipper on the image... something like Flipper (40nm)
 
So is the 320 shaders - 352gflops theory still the most likely? With u guys now trying to figure out where and how many ROPs this thing has(if any at all)?
 
So is the 320 shaders - 352gflops theory still the most likely? With u guys now trying to figure out where and how many ROPs this thing has(if any at all)?
It seems to have 320 steam processors (assuming it is in groups of 40), but we are trying to figure out what is in the other parts of the chip. This includes the weird position of RAM cache, if it has Flipper/Hollywood lagacy hardware, customized features, and ROP/TMIs locations :)
 
So a dev walks into a bar and says the WiiU is more capable than the PS3/360. A dev actually working on a title for the system. Guess how a Beyond3D forum member responds?
Hint: The same response given when Shinen and the Toki Toki devs said anything positive here


http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/02/developer_interview_rebellion_on_why_sniper_elite_v2_wii_u_is_the_definitive_version

NL: Do you find the Wii U to be more powerful than the 360 and PS3?

JK: In a word yes – it’s very capable, and we’re taking advantage of this to bring greater graphical fidelity to the Wii U version of Sniper Elite V2.

And the response...
Not very constructive, sadly. A Nintendo fansite where the developer is wanting to drum up interest in their new game, they're going to be in full PR mode. "Powerful" is unqualified. It'll be interesting to compare the game though to see what they manage. It was very much in need of better IQ on PS3.
 

Meelow

Banned
So a dev walks into a bar and says the WiiU is more capable than the PS3/360. A dev actually working on a title for the system. Guess how a Beyond3D forum member responds?
Hint: The same response given when Shinen and the Toki Toki devs said anything positive here


http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/02/developer_interview_rebellion_on_why_sniper_elite_v2_wii_u_is_the_definitive_version



And the response...

Some people don't like to hear that Wii U is more powerful than PS3/360, there is nothing that will change their minds.
 

LeleSocho

Banned
So a dev walks into a bar and says the WiiU is more capable than the PS3/360. A dev actually working on a title for the system. Guess how a Beyond3D forum member responds?
Hint: The same response given when Shinen and the Toki Toki devs said anything positive here


http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/02/developer_interview_rebellion_on_why_sniper_elite_v2_wii_u_is_the_definitive_version



And the response...

I don't think that the user was questioning the fact of being more powerful than ps360 but that the developer was full pr mode and actually hasn't said anything that helps any kind of technical discussions.
 
I don't think that the user was questioning the fact of being more powerful than ps360 but that the developer was full pr mode and actually hasn't said anything that helps any discussions.

It's one thing to say it's not very constructive and specific but it's another to come up with baseless qualifications to discredit it. If the dev had simply said it was weaker in some ways I almost guarantee he wouldn't have even responded to it. Other devs in interviews have said aspects were weaker and its accepted without excuses

And a prime example...right above this post
 
Well, they probably don´t like to hear that because it´s just plain wrong.
I wouldn't go as far as saying plain wrong. Outside of the technicalities, I think most people are yet to see any real difference in power. I'd be surprised if we see many games that look better than PS360's best during the Wii U's lifetime. Just look at what happened to Wii.
 

LeleSocho

Banned
It's one thing to say it's not very constructive and specific but it's another to come up with baseless qualifications to discredit it.
nothing that he said was wrong, it's true that isn't very constructive and it is a very high chance that the dev was full pr mode... he hasn't negated anything but instead he said that would've been interesting to wait comparisions.
If the dev had simply said it was weaker in some ways I almost guarantee he wouldn't have even responded to it. Other devs in interviews have said aspects were weaker and its accepted without excuses

And a prime example...right above this post
This works both ways... i guess if it wasn't for that comment you or some others would've accepted these words like gold
 
nothing that he said was wrong, it's true that isn't very constructive and it is a very high chance that the dev was full pr mode... he hasn't negated anything but instead he said that would've been interesting to wait comparisions.
So saying a dev is in "PR mode" isn't calling their credibility into question? It isn't arbitrarily choosing to not trust what they say? In that case, we shouldn't trust any devs that are interviewed.

This works both ways... i guess if it wasn't for that comment you or some others would've accepted these words like gold
Uhh, yeah. Even the negative comments I've refrained from discrediting...except for the Metro devs who based their assessment on looking at the dev kit and not actually on work they've done developing a WiiU game
 

Datschge

Member
To me Shiota's comment was rather clear about not including Hollywood in the design.
The way I see it is that parts of Latte and Espresso could already emulate parts of Broadway and Hollywood and when they thought Wii circuits needed to be added, the engineers from IBM and AMD were able to tweak certain parts of Wii U instead keeping it smaller.

Be careful about the wording. Emulation often implies loose implementations with shortcuts where actual perfect emulations are exceptions. But afaik Nintendo is known for keeping perfect compatibility across internal system revisions and new system generations' BC. Whereas Sony sometimes ended with incompatibilities between internal system revisions, e.g. Wii U technically has no troubles running GC games besides the obviously removed ports.

So I'm pretty sure Shiota's comment is not referring to a new design that emulates an independent old one, but a modernized design that is a superset of the old one. And that's where I came with the suggestion that Wii U might well have a significant amount of fixed functions/dedicated silicon/whatever. The Wii's TEV/GX abilities are needed for perfect BC anyway and (primarily Nintendo's) developers already know how to use that. But it would be useless in Wii U as is due to the steep increase of pixel count to calculate going from SD to HD, so its power would need to be extended for that, and they may have used that opportunity to expand its feature set and make it transparently mixable with the shader logic.
 

LeleSocho

Banned
So saying a dev is in "PR mode" isn't calling their credibility into question? It isn't arbitrarily choosing to not trust what they say? In that case, we shouldn't trust any devs that are interviewed.

I think he said it was on PR mode to justify the lack of any lack of useful information.
I don't know why you threw Metro devs in here... people were believing them because they weren't the first ones to say that the cpu was slow, simple as that.

but yes in the end if they can't provide facts no one should be believed in the first place.
 
I was looking at Block V and it seems that Llano has a similar block, but not Brazos or RV770.

http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cpu/amd/llano/review/desktop/49142A_LlanoDie_StraightBlack.jpg

Upper left corner.

Be careful about the wording. Emulation often implies loose implementations with shortcuts where actual perfect emulations are exceptions. But afaik Nintendo is known for keeping perfect compatibility across internal system revisions and new system generations' BC. Whereas Sony sometimes ended with incompatibilities between internal system revisions, e.g. Wii U technically has no troubles running GC games besides the obviously removed ports.

So I'm pretty sure Shiota's comment is not referring to a new design that emulates an independent old one, but a modernized design that is a superset of the old one. And that's where I came with the suggestion that Wii U might well have a significant amount of fixed functions/dedicated silicon/whatever. The Wii's TEV/GX abilities are needed for perfect BC anyway and (primarily Nintendo's) developers already know how to use that. But it would be useless in Wii U as is due to the steep increase of pixel count to calculate going from SD to HD, so its power would need to be extended for that, and they may have used that opportunity to expand its feature set and make it transparently mixable with the shader logic.

Then emulate might be a poor choice of words on my part as I can't tell if you're disagreeing or agreeing with me when you talk about a superset and the rest of that paragraph. However Nintendo is on record about Wii U not being BC with GC games, so I would think it has more to do than just the controller ports being removed. And at the same time Wii is the only other console that has a history of BC for Nintendo games and it was architecturally the same as GC so it's not a proper reflection on the hardware shift in Wii U and how it would achieve "perfect" BC.
 

tipoo

Banned
So a dev walks into a bar and says the WiiU is more capable than the PS3/360. A dev actually working on a title for the system. Guess how a Beyond3D forum member responds?
Hint: The same response given when Shinen and the Toki Toki devs said anything positive here


http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/02/developer_interview_rebellion_on_why_sniper_elite_v2_wii_u_is_the_definitive_version



And the response...

While I'm not dismissive of any developer feedback like whoever that guy is, it is rather unqualified (not in the developer is unqualified sense, just the qualifier for "powerful" sense), powerful in what regard? Is it the memory for less compressed textures, the GPU for more shading, etc? I wish devs were allowed to open up more.
 

wsippel

Banned
Has anyone figured out the SRAM and eDRAM interfaces yet? I have no idea what to count.

Also, what's going on with the banks (no idea if that's the correct term, but whatever) in MEM0 SRAM? I count 48 banks per macro, so 1536 in total. That doesn't seem to add up 1024kB (1024^2*8/1536). Then again, I count 64 banks in the SRAM in block X, and Marcan says those add up to 96kB, so I guess I simply don't get SRAM.
 

Datschge

Member
Then emulate might be a poor choice of words on my part as I can't tell if you're disagreeing or agreeing with me when you talk about a superset and the rest of that paragraph. However Nintendo is on record about Wii U not being BC with GC games, so I would think it has more to do than just the controller ports being removed. And at the same time Wii is the only other console that has a history of BC for Nintendo games and it was architecturally the same as GC so it's not a proper reflection on the hardware shift in Wii U and how it would achieve "perfect" BC.

I think I'm agreeing with you. =P It just need to be emphasized that once hardware is significantly changed instead extended ensuring compatibility is one hell to ensure. And Nintendo has a long line of public backward compatibility with its portable systems as well as endless internal revision of boards and chips for all of there systems (e.g. there are at least three internal revisions of the SNES, the first had the sound unit as a separate daughter board, which later was replace by a couple consolidated chips on the mainboard, then further consolidated into one all-including chip). And Wii U of course doesn't officially support GC games, it doesn't have the necessary controller ports and memory card interfaces anymore. Still, using homebrew GC code starts just fine on Wii U, meaning that likely even the assumingly GC specific logic in the metal was kept for BC just in case some Wii games made use of it.
 

neo-berserk

Neo Member
IF theres ANYTHING hinting at fixed functions than its the fact that most Wii U games )Even Nintendoland) do great shadows. Lego City and Trine 2 do too.

So the only likely scenario is that they have some sort of fixed function lighting going on. Wich should maybe onl be a few gflops at best.

i would think too...maybe a lighting chip embended on the gpu sorta like unreal 4 but less demanding.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
i would think too...maybe a lighting chip embended on the gpu sorta like unreal 4 but less demanding.
You need good depth-buffer resolution for good shadows. No fixed function required.
 

prag16

Banned
Some people don't like to hear that Wii U is more powerful than PS3/360, there is nothing that will change their minds.

The majority of those beyond3d guys... I take anything they say with a grain of salt. Some of them are obviously very well versed in computer/tech/etc. But many of them are clearly very biased for unknown reasons... every bit as biased as they'd claim Nintendo fanboys are.
 

Thraktor

Member
The majority of those beyond3d guys... I take anything they say with a grain of salt. Some of them are obviously very well versed in computer/tech/etc. But many of them are clearly very biased for unknown reasons... every bit as biased as they'd claim Nintendo fanboys are.

Everyone's biased. It's what happens when you get overly invested in things like this.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
The majority of those beyond3d guys... I take anything they say with a grain of salt. Some of them are obviously very well versed in computer/tech/etc. But many of them are clearly very biased for unknown reasons... every bit as biased as they'd claim Nintendo fanboys are.

Yes indeed. I noticed some heavy bias there long ago. I figured that professionals would behave more...well professional. One thing I've certainly noticed is that they are fast to generalize Nintendo products towards the lowest common denominator and close cases on a negative point.

Also, how do people stand on the Wii U GPU being a downscaled 4650/4670? Are people still supporting this claim?
 

tipoo

Banned
I never really checked out b3d before you guys started dumping on it, but the forums there say both the 1MB and 2MB memory pools are locked off to developers, is that correct? Marcan indicated the 1MB pool may have been locked off, but not the 2MB, I haven't read this whole thread yet to see where that idea is coming from.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=60501&page=186

It would be a minor bummer if all that fast memory is in there but can only be used for BC, why not give devs access to it? Like I guessed way back, maybe the smaller memory pools are only wired to the parts that emulate the Wii? Otherwise, why make it unusable?
 
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