Support NeoGAF

[FyreWulff]

My issue with it is it's poor preservation of games for the future. When these online services shut down (and they will), all of that content will disappear, and there will be no legal means of acquiring it.

Gears skins? Once Live goes down, that content disappears once you have to replace the Xbox (or in other cases, you can't use things since it requires LIVE auth). You won't be able to resign the keys, so your new Xbox won't be able to decrypt it.

Halo? There's a skull in Halo Anniversary that was only available to preorders and first run copies. It wasn't cosmetic - it actually changed how the campaign plays. This will be lost to the sands of time no matter how many discs you buy once Live goes down, because you won't be able to decrypt the software key that allows the game to use it. Meanwhile, we will be able to access 100% of the original Halo 1's content forever.

We're talking about someone who's (former) company had two games legally deleted from existence, I already see what side of game preservation they stand on. And it's not a good one. Microtransactions of actual in game content (cosmetic or not) is going to eventually create a lost history of videogames. Microtransactions should be geared more towards service-based items (buy this to get more EXP, buy this to increase your storage space, etc).

 

[benny_a]

Example - games that have an experience point component to level up or unlock abilities, weapon, perks, etc are tuned such that normal advancement is very slow in order to make the "pay $10 for the XP doubler" more enticing. Is that good game design?

But dude, Mountain Dew and Halo are in a partnership that benefits gamer by giving them a double-XP bonus while also giving them a sweet drink.

That's some game-design plus soft drink synergy for the win! Chug some mountain dew and rock some faces to unlock some sweet ass gear. Fuck yeah.

 

[dookeh]

I agree but when gameplay and enjoyment is affected by micro transactions........

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-28-real-racing-3-review



Someone on Eurogamer worked it out. 104 races to save for that one upgrade, plus all the realtime oil changes.

Or you could make a micro transaction to buy the part since there is no enjoyment winning 104 races just to go through the same shit again in another tier.

I just installed this earlier and played one race. Though it looked nice, and would be a decent time killer, but this post just made me uninstall it. Despicable.

 

[pahamrick]

So, was this a stealth announcement of an EA Studio partnership?

 

[Stat Flow]

Where the fuck is Cliffy. I want to know his direct unfiltered drunk thoughts on Gears of War Judgment.

 

[orznge]

So, was this a stealth announcement of an EA Studio partnership?

lol

 

[Lysander91]

The problem with criticizing micro-transactions and DLC is two fold.
The first is that you are basically saying that other people are spending their money wrong, since their is obviously quite a high demand for weapon skins, hats, in game currency etc. I haven't spent money on any of these items, but I don't believe that others subjective valuations of these items are somehow wrong, and it's a bit pretentious to think that others valuation of any good is wrong.
The second is that you act as though you are entitled to all of the content a developer has made for a game because you paid $60. When you buy a product you are in effect signaling that at that time you valued the product more than the $60 you paid for the product. This does not somehow make you entitled to more than you paid for. When you factor in the fact that games are relatively cheaper than ever, having to pay another $10 to get what might have been included in a game before isn't really that bad.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

i want to live in the world where all the pubs are privately owned

Gaming....


Gaming has changed.

 

[Mithos]

And why is it wrong? A lot of iOS games are making boatloads of money with microtransactions.

Yes they are, but $4.99 or $9.99 AIN'T a microtransactions. Anything $1 and down are microtransactions.

 

[CliffyB]

Where the fuck is Cliffy. I want to know his direct unfiltered drunk thoughts on Gears of War Judgment.

I played the hell out of that game during development and I approved of every change that was made.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

My issue with it is it's poor preservation of games for the future. When these online services shut down (and they will), all of that content will disappear, and there will be no legal means of acquiring it.

Gears skins? Once Live goes down, that content disappears once you have to replace the Xbox (or in other cases, you can't use things since it requires LIVE auth). You won't be able to resign the keys, so your new Xbox won't be able to decrypt it.

Halo? There's a skull in Halo Anniversary that was only available to preorders and first run copies. It wasn't cosmetic - it actually changed how the campaign plays. This will be lost to the sands of time no matter how many discs you buy once Live goes down, because you won't be able to decrypt the software key that allows the game to use it.

We're talking about someone who's (former) company had two games legally deleted from existence, I already see what side of game preservation they stand on. And it's not a good one.

I think about playing fighting games in the future. Street Fighter 4 AE has a significant balance change that's online-only, called "AE v.2012". What happens when you can't download that anymore? Is SF4 gonna be forever unbalanced?

I played the hell out of that game during development and I approved of every change that was made.

"Two shots in sawed-off? fuck it, awesome"

 

[wingz]

Nice read. People tend to forget game companies are just like any other companies, which are there fire and foremost to make money. Micro-transactions may hurt the a company's image in the face of the "hardcore" gamer, but in the end of the day if they are making a profit from these transactions, they will probably take the hit in their image in front of the hardcore gamer, which is really only fraction of the gaming population.

 

[A Sentient Keyboard]

Ironically, by dropping that first comment, Cliffy killed most GAF discussion about his own blog post.

 

[lmpaler]

Which is a major difference with the Valve vs. EA argument. Valve is still putting out games like Portal 2 and CS:GO. Whereas on the EA side you have Mass Effect 3 and Dead Space 3. Valve is showing no signs of trying to put every single game into a traditional "pay money/get items" paradigm. Going by some of Gabe's talks, they're actually going out of their way to find ways to monetize things outside of the base game itself, like allowing people to tip popular teams/players/FAQ writers. Those are directions that could allow static multi- and singleplayer experiences to still make money long-term without corrupting the base game.

Not to sound like a fanboy, but Valve really does micro transactions the best. I care not d for hats, but I laugh at some of the ones I have seen. It's all for fun and doesn't change the gameplay at all. That's the difference and why people don't hate or complain about it.

 

[Arrogant Menace]

Cliffy its time to get back into producing some games industry needs you

 

[REV 09]

i agree with Cliff here. Microtransactions are just part of the business. if the business isn't profitable then we wouldn't have the games we have.

 

[TheLight]

I played the hell out of that game during development and I approved of every change that was made.

Kotaku article being made on this as we speak.

 

[see5harp]

I played the hell out of that game during development and I approved of every change that was made.

Damn well I guess I'll give it a try.

 

[Coolwhip]

Cliffy its time to get back into producing some games industry needs you

He can't possibly make a game after all his comments. He set impossible standards by now :>

 

[Arrogant Menace]

I played the hell out of that game during development and I approved of every change that was made.

Everything seems so overpowered now especially the new weapons

 

[benny_a]

I never thought I'd be on the side of Mountain Dew in the product placement wars, but isn't XP nearly meaningless in Halo games? If you're going to do a dumb useless product tie-in, that's probably the way to do it.

Halo 4 changed the formula of Halo quite a bit. Unfortunately the XP in Halo isn't as meaningless for the gameplay balance as in DOTA 2 (which is a fantastic way to implement XP).

 

[watership]

I really wish Cliffy would just stop talking for awhile.

You didn't have to read. But you did.

 

[Salsa]

whatever Cliff i'll buy Jazz Jackrabbit 3 even if its by EA

 

[Doffen]

Been happening for years.

You had mad #swag back then.

Spoiler

Quote a post from CliffyB. Check.

 

[Saty]

I also think Valve did it wrong in TF2 before they got it absolutely right in DOTA 2.

Not in mind. Micro\Random drops\playing regularly\trading - various ways to get the items. The fact that almost everything is cosmetic defuses the situation and gameplay stuff like weapons aren't designed to be absolutely better than the old stuff. Each has weaknesses and strengths so it's as far as it can be from pay to win.

 

[Kusagari]

I played the hell out of that game during development and I approved of every change that was made.

You also approved the sawed off to begin with.

 

[LiK]

I played the hell out of that game during development and I approved of every change that was made.

so you decided to force us to play as Baird. so cruel.

 

[Heart Attack]

Do any of you fuckers still actually play games, or do you just hang out here all day long and play digital fantasy football with the industry?

I used to play Gears of War multiplayer, until you fucked it up.

 

[DJ Crimson]

Yea

 

[CliffyB]

Everything seems so overpowered now especially the new weapons

I know, it's like it's a shooter and you're supposed to, like, kill people virtually online.

 

[Xenon]

The problem I have is the lines between the business side and creative side are starting to blur. The quarter munching arcade games of old are a great example. F2P games are designed with the same mentality. The only difference is they have all the time in the world to get you to pay and are not bound to the limitations of a set number of players at once. It's the gaming version of a long con. They design the game to appear to be random and up to your own personal skill. But in truth much like a casino it's rigged to favor the house.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Loving a more free Cliffy, it's good to hear what devs have to say when they can be fully honest, when they aren't so muzzled by consequence.

I know, it's like it's a shooter and you're supposed to, like, kill people virtually online.

I take back what I said. .

 

[Coolwhip]

Cliffy, why don't you ask Nintendo to head a western Nintendo exclusive studio? Nintendo needs that badly and for you it would be quite the challenge, plus you seem to have affinity with Nintendo.

 

[smik]

I played the hell out of that game during development and I approved of every change that was made.

Which one was it you approve of?

The Witheld content Posing as "free"DLC? or the utter complete incompentence of not realizing the fanbase that supports your games?


GOW3 has already held back content on disc, which you and EPIC released for "Free"


dont be a hypocrit, Cliffy

 

[ShockingAlberto]

And that brings me full circle to my main point. If you don’t like the games, or the sales techniques, don’t spend your money on them.

You vote with your dollars.

Sure.

But I will also complain to anyone who will listen.

No reason not to do both. The video game industry is, as you say, simply an industry, that does nothing to diminish my multifaceted abilities as a consumer. They can be out to take all the money they can from me and I can be out to tell them to fuck off both with my wallet and with my pen.

 

[CliffyB]

I used to play Gears of War multiplayer, until you fucked it up.

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44082100724/the-problem-with-sequels

 

[GAMERG0D]

I played the hell out of that game during development and I approved of every change that was made.

I approve of buying double xp through a season pass. A great way of giving every regular player who doesn't buy it 1/2 xp.

 

[DocSeuss]

Which is a major difference with the Valve vs. EA argument. Valve is still putting out games like Portal 2 and CS:GO. Whereas on the EA side you have Mass Effect 3 and Dead Space 3. Valve is showing no signs of trying to put every single game into a traditional "pay money/get items" paradigm. Going by some of Gabe's talks, they're actually going out of their way to find ways to monetize things outside of the base game itself, like allowing people to tip popular teams/players/FAQ writers. Those are directions that could allow static multi- and singleplayer experiences to still make money long-term without corrupting the base game.

Right, but Valve's still interested in the ideas of games-as-services, which bothers me (yesterday, I picked up Unreal and started playing it again--if it was a game-as-service, would I be able to do that? Of course not. The servers might be down or what have you).

Do you know where an increasingly large portion of television's revenue comes from? Rentals and disc purchases. Not ads, not "television as service," but buy people buying or renting the product as a product.

There was a time when television was a service that people had to subscribe to (if cable/satellite). They'd have to sit there and wait for the show to come on and watch it on its terms. This actually impacted the quality of the shows (because cliffhanger every week!). Netflix has discovered people like to watch a show all in one go--a rather different viewing habit.

Television-as-service removed audience control. Television-as-product has boosted revenue for people. Most of Netflix's income actually comes from people watching television shows online at their convenience.

Developers trying to do games-as-services are basically trying to jam the MMO models onto games where this doesn't necessarily fit. Unlike television, however, they're tying this stuff into services that might not be up in some years.

(sorry if this is disjointed, there are conversations going on around me and it's hard to focus)

Movie money is made through tail sales. Movies don't lose money anymore. It's not possible. Whether through ticket sales, rentals, television viewings, or whatever, movies always make their money back.

Imagine movies that can no longer be watched when the service they're attached to dies.

That's what games are doing to themselves. They're tying themselves to services that may or may not exist in the future. Essentially, game developers and publishers are creating products with expiration dates on them that only appeal to a limited audience pool.

Sure, that pool spends money, but A) they're ignoring the MASSIVE appeal that products with no strings attached have (this is why I believe I'm not a member of a vocal minority--people buy rarely buy individual episodes of a show, because they prefer to buy entire seasons) and B) they're eliminating the ability to make sales in a long tail (console publishing as a whole does this--a System Shock 2 on GoG type situation isn't possible with consoles.

Screw it, I'm too unfocused to keep writing. Hopefully this makes sense.

tl;dr games-as-services and microtransactions limit the amount of money you can make

 

[FyreWulff]

I think about playing fighting games in the future. Street Fighter 4 AE has a significant balance change that's online-only, called "AE v.2012". What happens when you can't download that anymore? Is SF4 gonna be forever unbalanced?

It'll just be gone.

Books, movies.. don't suffer from this problem. Years later, all the pages of Harry Potter, all the frames of Terminator 2 will be able to be viewed, preserved, and enjoyed. Videogames will suddenly have a big gap of information.

If I were to be the dramatic type, we as an industry are already setting our Library of Alexandria on fire. Everyone's too busy watching stock prices spike so they can short sell to care about the smoke, though.

 

[ColossalLazy]

whatever Cliff i'll buy Jazz Jackrabbit 3 even if its by EA

Me too.

 

[alexandros]

I think he was offering a reality check to some of the more vocal individuals, not defending EA.

What was the reality check? He says:

To produce a high quality game it takes tens of millions of dollars, and when you add in marketing that can get up to 100+ million.

Since when do we equate quality to budget? You can create a great game for much less, but the gaming industry seems obsessed to pretend like it's the film industry by churning out tons of "cinematic", overly hyped and most of the time barely interactive games.

Maybe a crash is indeed what this industry needs. Maybe then we can go back to what really matters and stop spending ridiculous amounts of money on crap.

Also, pointing out the hypocrisy in Valve's fanbase (but, to be fair, Valve creates addictive games by way of operant conditioning, so their players are dependant on them) was a totally valid thing.

This comparison is just absurd. He compares a cosmetic item, that doesn't affect gameplay in any way, for a free-to-play game, to EA's intent of adding microtransactions to full $60 dollar games. Microtransactions that, if Dead Space 3 and Mass Effect 3 are any measure, do affect gameplay in a very real way. And you call this a valid thing?

Not to mention that he really has no right to criticize Valve. At a time when the whole industry was determined to drive PC gaming to the ground, Valve helped it fight back. CliffyB was all too eager to pile on the pressure.

 

[Fersis]

Yo cliffy real rap: The King Of Fighters or Street Fighter?

EDIT: Well that was quite a dumb first post of the page.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

The only major thing I disagree with is comparing EA dlc with Valve's cosmetic store. They are so wildly different.

edit: what alexandros said. Besides the valve saving us part. Steam was shit and them forcing their popular games on it caused quite the uproar.

 

[benny_a]

Not in mind. Micro\Random drops\playing regularly\trading - various ways to get the items. The fact that almost everything is cosmetic defuses the situation and gameplay stuff like weapons aren't designed to be absolutely better than the old stuff. Each has weaknesses and strengths so it's as far as it can be from pay to win.

I don't buy the "it's not an upgrade but a side-grade" thing at all. (Which is how I'm reading your reply.)
Having more options available to the player is an upgrade of the players ability.

TF2 also changed a lot over the years. I purchased it for full price when it came out. I knew about the people that idled on servers when that still worked, or the people that grinded unlocks on dedicated servers.

DOTA2 does everything right when it comes to multiplayer.

 

[orznge]

I just want to say thanks for approving GoW's art style because it's given me a strong sense of empathy for those who are color blind.

 

[RoKKeR]

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44082100724/the-problem-with-sequels

Though it is seemingly an unavoidable problem, it's very true. Not in every case, but it is becoming more and more present in the industry as established franchises grow bigger year after year.

 

[Drencrom]

Cliffy is going hard

 

[Zeouterlimits]

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44082100724/the-problem-with-sequels

Yeah, as a Halo fan I've really struggled with what 343 have done in MP.

But that "problem" feels like more of an issue for the developer to solve, not the customer spending $60[++].

 

[Animal]

It feels weird having this kind of thread on a non-Friday night GAF.

 

[DreadPirateRoberts]

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44082100724/the-problem-with-sequels

Trying to get hits on your tumblr? Nice try big red