But but but - that doesn't support her argument!
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Fabricated Notch/Mojang party escort allegations; Twitter monsters spring into action
- Thread starter Misguided
- Start date
But but but - that doesn't support her argument!
Arkage
Banned
Preconceived notions? So it takes a certified psychologist to know that objectification of a gender is a bad thing instead of a good thing? That if you take a job in which you're sexually objectified you see much higher levels of abuse, rape, sexual assault, and personal suicide attempts? Much higher levels of molestation or child abuse in their past? Is that why there are support groups created for ex-escorts and ex-prostitutes? Yet it's the same old bullshit argument from you guys concerning party dancers, strippers, escorts, prostitutes, whatever: "They choose to do it." Vomit.
It's amazing how hesitant you are to make a judgement on an obviously bad occupation and system when it casts a bad light on your gender. Are you really going to claim that it is uncertain whether jobs based on sexual objectification are harmful in a myriad of ways that other jobs are not? Ludicrous.
I see two problems with this.
One: it's pathetic. Paying people to socialize at your party is laughably sad. I don't care if it's the norm with the corporate fat-cats; in fact that only makes it more pathetic. If I went to a game dev's party, it would be to socialize with gamers, not bimbos.
Two: it's kinda rude to the female attendees. It's almost implying that they're not "enough" for the males to enjoy themselves.
One: it's pathetic. Paying people to socialize at your party is laughably sad. I don't care if it's the norm with the corporate fat-cats; in fact that only makes it more pathetic. If I went to a game dev's party, it would be to socialize with gamers, not bimbos.
Two: it's kinda rude to the female attendees. It's almost implying that they're not "enough" for the males to enjoy themselves.
Why do you assume they're all bimbos?
Why do you think all the female attendees are there for the men to enjoy?
But the fact is that he never did that. Its a rumor that got on the seat of some girl who exploded it.
Notch never hired any girl, neither did anybody else. There was no hired dancers.
That moral high ground is getting higher by the day.
Two problems with what? Nobody was paid to attend. Can we get a title change or something seeing as the whole story now seems to be manufactured nonsense?
Sorry, haven't read through the whole thread yet. Should've done that.
Even if they did pay, wasnt this a private event? Why do we care what Notch does on his own time? How is this remotely related to the industry?
Seems disingenuous to link industry sexism to this. I could understand the outrage if this was an industry event or something like a guild party that represents a large body of people.
Steve Youngblood
Member
In the context of clubs, again, I kind of get it. Again, I think there's an argument to be made for the improvement in terms of more diversity in the regular, unpaid guest list. But if your party is at a club and there's lots of guys, your probably going to try to need to get some ladies on the floor one way or another if you're trying to make sure the dance floor sees some use.
That's not to say that you shouldn't take into account that some guests might be put off by having models paid to do this kind of work, but I don't think one should automatically assume that's the case. If women there are uncomfortable, then I think it's worth listening to them. See the IGDA for examples of that. But in this example, I think it's more difficult to find solid examples of people actually being upset and articulating their rationale, outside of "dancers at parties is bad," which I think is overgeneralizing in the opposite extreme (by that, I mean the obviously bad argument that it's automatically okay to assume that guys need female eye candy to be entertained).
Whether or not it's sexist, I'd be really uncomfortable with someone being paid to socialize with me. They should want to socialize with me because I'm goddamn awesome.
Its kind of like a politician visiting a gay club on his own time, while he's against gay rights.
It "may" reflect that his policy are hypocritical. But notch never did any story based game. Its not like he made Tomb Raider and then he go and hire 20 brunette cosplayed as Lara Croft to dance around him while he sing the Ducktails theme.
Thats your opinion.
But what does your personal opinion of Notch doing something on his own time have to do with the industry? Or sexism in the industry?
Whether you think paying for escorts/dancers/strippers is sexist is totally irrelevant and is your own opinion of said things. Why this is being discussed in the game section is baffling to me.
Correct. Why is there this instant suspicion as soon as theres girls at a party that they are paid or bribed to be there?
I don't get it.
The female attendees aren't there for the men to enjoy themselves in the first place. Hiring women to be there (which likely didn't happen in this situation) sends the message that that is what women are at the party for. That is the insulting part.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
They aren't paid to talk to you specifically (or anyone), they're paid to make the party look good. They could just spend the whole party talking to each other and being hot if they want.
Whoa now, I don't agree with this at all. Fact of the matter is, some people aren't that smart, male or female. College and white-collar careers aren't for everybody. It's none of my business how people make their money, as long as it isn't immoral.
Delusibeta
Banned
Pretty much. Knee jerking at everything just buries the actual problems.
TheJollyCorner
Member
what the fuck does this have to do with "the industry"?
This isn't something that happens exclusively at private parties thrown by videogame designers/companies.
If you are going to beat this drum, beat it with a broader range.
Notch doesnt represent a people that voted for him. He also doesnt push for legislation that effects peoples lives.
At best i get the argument that his own actions reflect how people view him. Thats common sense. But I. there isnt even proof that he hired these people and II. This story is being run as a game industry story and being linked to sexism in the industry.
You really dont see how ridiculous this is?
EscoBlades
Ubisoft Marketing
Wondering why the OP hasn't been updated. You know...so as to not spread further misinformation.
dragonelite
Member
This actually. Doing higher education isn't for everybody. Most of my friend went into the army when they became 17~18 others became farmers or went into construction. I was like the only one that went on to study more.
Where i know more about computers,math and physics they could build their own houses or repair their own car, know a shit load of other stuff people wouldn't categorize as intelligent.
Of course I do, I posted about 20 post in this thread about that. The story is false, Notch checked with the party organizer and there was no hired dancer. So either some guy was jealous of some girl working in the industry, or they were jealous of the girlfriend of people working in the industry.
But my argument was more on the fact that his private life may make that you dont want to support him. For example, the maker of the game Shadow Complex, an excellent Metroidvania game, is Anti-gay and donate a lot of money to anti gay organism. Now, do you want to give this guy money so he can give it back to Anti Gay organism, or do you separate the two and say "His game is cool, what he does with his money is not my problem."
Let say that Notch did encourage the usage of strippers or hired girls for bars. If you are a feminist who is against this, would you recommend Minecraft as a game or would you say to people that Notch is a Machist?
I don't think you read my post.
Delusibeta
Banned
It's gotten to the stage where I'm considering PMing a mod to ask for a title change.
Steve Youngblood
Member
For what it's worth, I understood your joking tone.
This is an example of why you DON'T try to reply to a thread while on your phone and walking to your next class.
My apologies guys, totally misread both of them (more like scanned them quickly). Too lazy to edit my posts as well, so I guess I'll leave them up for for all to see my idiocy/shame. Won't do that again.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Hiring a woman to look attractive at a party doesn't mean you think that's all a woman's purpose in life is. I watch pornography but that doesn't mean I think women should only be having sex for money. This mentality that if you pay a woman for something based on appearence you're devaluing her is absurd.
It doesn't take a certified demographer to know that members of certain racial groups are statistically more likely to have certain experiences or traits than others, but it's probably not wise to go around making reckless assumptions about individuals based on their ethnicities unless you want to be called a racist. You seem pretty adamant that no one is going to honestly choose to do such a job unless they are damaged goods, which is just circular reasoning. And conflating dancers and strippers with prostitutes is silly for a number of reasons, but especially because the illegal nature of prostitution makes it much more prone to elements of coercion.
So no, I really don't see how showing up at parties or *gasp* even dancing (!!!) for money is an obviously bad occupation for a young person who may be trying to put himself or herself through college or something.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
You're right, you didn't say any of those things, and I apologize. I actually never intended to say that you had these opinions, I just directed them at you since you were the one that was playing devils advocate and it was simpler then typing "everyone who holds those opinions". Either way, it was bad wording by me, and I apologize.
Regarding the issue at hand, I agree that it could press upon those stereotypes, but I don't think its as wide spread as you'd think.
And one of my biggest peeves is the idea that the world should be limited for some people just so other people will change the way they act or think. I believe that thinking is completely backwards.
If we spend our time readapting our society to where its just not POSSIBLE for men to think that way as easily instead of leaving it open to interpretation and explaining why men SHOULDNT think that way then we are doing society a disservice. Because if that's the way we act we aren't actually progressing as a society, we are merely trying to limit it so the worst types of people dictate how the world works.
As you've agreed with the problem doesn't lie in the woman being naked, it lies in the man not understanding that the woman isn't
naked just so he can enjoy it. So why punish the woman who wants to be naked? It doesn't solve anything. The woman should
be able to be naked without worrying about
anything. So the logical thing is to find ways to make sure the man understands that just because some women dont mind being naked or having sex for money it doesn't mean every woman holds those same ideals.
Anything else is just limiting womens lives to make sure men don't think a certain way. Its a whole different form of sexism.
Please do, because it absolutely needs to be changed. Title was dubious from the outset without including the word claims, accusations, or rumors. Extremely misleading and harmful.
Yeah.
Not only that, but then been being accused of hate where hate never existed. The only thing worse than actually hating is being accused of it where it doesn't exist...er something.
The OP doesn't seem to want to edit his FP, either. If he had logged off for the day, that's understandable, but he's been posting in this thread the whole time.
IrishNinja
Member
lose not that valiant heart, my good knight. you will surely find other brothers-in-arms to come to the hypothetical defense of yon maidens
Delusibeta
Banned
Rounding things off: remember the journalist from the last page?
In conclusion: GAMES JOURNALISM!
Oh really? It reads like accusing to me.
In conclusion: GAMES JOURNALISM!
IrishNinja
Member
wow, didnt read through that tweet before...this holly person went from unkown to a punchline very fast. "multiple girls, and other people! dont shit on their observations...or that one girl, why would she lie? manage my perception of you please"
FormerShirts
Member
This happens all the time at real clubs when there are VIPs. Sounds like people need to get out more. The game industry starting to look like a bunch of drama queens.
EscoBlades
Ubisoft Marketing
At least she reached out to him and had a face to face lunch. Props to him for doing that as well. But yes, she did change her tone pretty sharpish.
Kitschkraft
Member
Wow.
Jesus Christ lmfao!
Sentenza
Member
This is becoming more and more embarrassing every minute.