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[Donnie]

I don't see a reason porting UE4 to Wii U if UE3 will do the same things. Porting UE4 to Wii U would mean that Wii U would have fewer resources than using UE3. There is always bottom (minimum spec) line that needs to be first taken care off. But yeah UE4 can be on WiiU but there is simply no point in it if there is UE3.5

Well I don't really want to go too far into it since this is the wrong thread. But what I will say is a big reason for having a certain engine on a system is the ability to use the same tools on numerous platforms, making the development process easier and cheaper. So if you're porting a few UE4 based games to WiiU it could easily be worth porting the engine first to make the process easier.

Also while UE4 should require more computational resources and RAM during the development process (due to new tools/dev features). I don't see why the final result would require more resources for the same level of game as UE3. Or has there been info suggesting UE4 is less efficient than UE3 that I missed?

 

[BRocknRolla]

To what?

RUMOR: MS having eSRAM yield problems on Xbox One, downclocking CPU

I'm in agreement that the title doesn't encompass this conversation. Just something that indicates the "downclocking" element would be more descriptive.

 

[Arkham]

Didn't Gamespot say Xbox One had the edge? Lol.

I think they said "Xbox is on the ledge" or something along those lines... ;-)

 

[1-D_FTW]

It's not turning down the shadows on launch software, it's turning them down for good. They can't launch with a 700MHz GPU then magically upgrade that to 800MHz down the line once they fix the yield problems. It would cause a shit ton of performance issues for early adopters, the one group of buyers companies hate to piss off.



And that lead to massive shortages as well as poor QA ending up in the whole RROD fiasco and $1bn pissed away in extending warranties by three years. A repeat performance would kill Xbone, MS already has a reputation for poor hardware.

I'm aware of all that. I was responding to the guy who said it would be a catastrophe for launch software (developing for one spec, and then needing to downgrade). It's not really that catastrophic. You can turn stuff down to address things. I think the alternative is more catastrophic.

I'm not saying underclocking is a good option, I'm just playing devil's advocate to everyone who thinks delays magically solve things. This issue has clearly been going on a long time without resolution. And a redesign from scratch for fall 2014? That seems awfully optimistic. Maybe it's not. But as someone who just casually watches things, it seems like one year would be cutting things awfully close (and put you in the same position again if any nasty surprise cropped up).

 

[eastmen]

RUMOR: MS having eSRAM yield problems on Xbox One, downclocking CPU

I'm in agreement that the title doesn't encompass this conversation. Just something that indicates the "downclocking" element would be more descriptive.

There are 2 different rumors and certain "insiders" have confirmed different parts of it.

MS may have esram yield problems and they may have clock issues. They may have both together but it hasn't been confirmed.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Actually the international laws on lead free soder lead to the whole RROD fiasco.

Aside from that consoles like the psone and pstwo suffered from major problems also . It doesn't really matter , if there is a flaw in your system it will come out at some point. Look at all the ps3 problems with bluray drives poping up after a couple of years.

RROD outdid all of the previous problems on other consoles. It killed MS as a brand on continental Europe.

Also, the late start meant poor QA because of a short time period for testing final production hardware. So sure, it might have been lead free solder that was responsible, but QA would have caught it if they'd had units being tested from the end of July onwards using the final specification. With such a short time period in between production and release so many hardware issues went unnoticed.

 

[darkwing]

a 6 month delay is nothing, look at the PS3, didn't the Xbox360 have like a year lead?

 

[IonicSnake]

a 6 month delay is nothing, look at the PS3, didn't the Xbox360 have like a year lead?

It might not matter in USA but in EU those 6 months could probably be pretty damaging to the Xbone.

 

[gcubed]

a 6 month delay is nothing, look at the PS3, didn't the Xbox360 have like a year lead?

if you spent significant capital on launch window exclusives, a 6 month delay would be huge. I feel like i hear the low yield issue often in some new architecture's, its what, 4 months from release? I highly doubt they'll release with downclocked hardware, they would maybe have supply issues for a while

 

[AgentP]

There are 2 different rumors and certain "insiders" have confirmed different parts of it.

MS may have esram yield problems and they may have clock issues. They may have both together but it hasn't been confirmed.

They are related. Yield issues can be solved by throwing more chips in the bin (lose money) or lowering the clock speeds (lose performance).

 

[Limit]

Delaying/not delaying is just a numbers issue with Microsoft. They probably have an army of financial analysts and economists who have already calculated how much revenue they would lose if they were to go for fall 2014 launch in order to take care of hardware troubles vs. launching in 2013 at the cost of further downgrading X1. If this rumor has any credence then it looks like MS has come to conclusion that launching in 2013 is a much better option than delaying until 2014.

 

[Nikodemos]

I think they said "Xbox is on the ledge" or something along those lines... ;-)

Actually, MS did have the edge, performance-wise, up until a day in January when some guy from Hynix rang up Cerny telling him that the new stuff he'd been waiting for has arrived.

 

[maabus1999]

They are related. Yield issues can be solved by throwing more chips in the bin (lose money) or lowering the clock speeds (lose performance).

Or improve the process. Happens all the time between an announcement and launch of video cards. There may be a downclock now for testing but when the thing is released is back to spec, and no one outside of the people reading these rumor pages would be any the wiser (and then the rumor readers would never know for certain, or even think the rumor was false!)

 

[AkuMifune]

Delaying/not delaying is just a numbers issue with Microsoft. They probably have an army of financial analysts and economists who have already calculated how much revenue they would lose if they were to go for fall 2014 launch in order to take care of hardware troubles vs. launching in 2013 at the cost of further downgrading X1. If this rumor has any credence then it looks like MS has come to conclusion that launching in 2013 is a much better option than delaying until 2014.

Their analysts and economists have already steered them so far in the wrong direction that they can't see the tip of the iceberg ahead.

 

[BRocknRolla]

There are 2 different rumors and certain "insiders" have confirmed different parts of it.

MS may have esram yield problems and they may have clock issues. They may have both together but it hasn't been confirmed.

Yes... I put rumor in front of both. My suggestion is in response to what the thread title should be changed to. As it is, it does not indicate both rumors; only one. That is why I think the thread should be retitled. I didn't claim either had been confirmed.

 

[flash ban]

My guess is they just launch at 1.6/800mhz and just suffer through shortages which are going to plague both consoles.

both consoles? doubt it.

Btw, asked this earlier but some say microsoft initially said it was 40nm, someone responded to me and said that amd said 28nm. Does anyone know were amd said 28nm? and why did microsoft seemingly say it was 40nm?

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

And the PSU isnt even inside the thing! They have a power brick...

They had a power brick with the 360 too, didn't prevent the RROD's...

 

[Brimstone]

I could see MS pushing back the launch. A good product can recover. A piece of crap is serious damage to the brand.

 

[maabus1999]

both consoles? doubt it.

Btw, asked this earlier but some say microsoft initially said it was 40nm, someone responded to me and said that amd said 28nm. Does anyone know were amd said 28nm? and why did microsoft seemingly say it was 40nm?

When did MSFT say 40? Last look Ars Technica and Wired, who both got the hardware guts from MSFT, said 28 nm.

 

[demosthenes]

I could see MS pushing back the launch. A good product can recover. A piece of crap is serious damage to the brand.

What was RROD.

 

[Perkel]

What was RROD.

Thing that helped a lot PS3

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Or improve the process. Happens all the time between an announcement and launch of video cards. There may be a downclock now for testing but when the thing is released is back to spec, and no one outside of the people reading these rumor pages would be any the wiser (and then the rumor readers would never know for certain, or even think the rumor was false!)

No, it would require a full silicon respin and tape out. Not possible in the time we have left between now and launch. It takes around 6-9 months for a full silicon respin. For MS to have done it they would have had to start the process back in November to allow for 3 months of mass production, stockpiling, assembly and testing.

Going by the rumours it seems very unlikely that MS have a silicon respin in the works that will be ready in time for launch. Not only that, there is no guarantee that it will solve the issues, sometimes Intel get to D0 stepping cores before they have consumer grade silicon ready, asking for a huge and complex APU to be ready on a B0/1 stepping core with a passable yield is a big ask and even a third revision may not be enough.

Waiting for a respin would be a poor idea, and waiting for magical process improvements is a worse one. Either they take the pain or they downclock. It is, for once, a black and white choice.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Wow, this is a clusterfuck.

Do Microsoft have anything going for them at this point?

If this stuff is true and they fail to listen to gamers' concerns about DRM, they will be dead in the eyes of core gamers.

Significantly weaker console + policies that piss off consumers sounds like a recipe for disaster.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

What was RROD.

Like he said... serious damage.

 

[ethomaz]

That really bad if true... the cost for the Xbone's APU will be a lot expensive compared to the PS4's APU.

Xbone's APU = complex / big
PS4's APU = simple / small

How can the scenario changed so much from the last gen? MS created the new Cell.

 

[Rebel Leader]

What was RROD.

That can't beat the possibility of the original xbox causing a fire.

 

[BRocknRolla]

a 6 month delay is nothing, look at the PS3, didn't the Xbox360 have like a year lead?

I could see MS pushing back the launch. A good product can recover. A piece of crap is serious damage to the brand.

I'm surprised people think MS would delay. I would think that would be the biggest way possible to tell the public you're having trouble and deter people from a purchase. It might be the right choice tech wise, but I feel like you average consumer isn't going to have any notion of clock speeds at the end of the day.

 

[Brimstone]

What was RROD.

RROD wasn't directly the fault of MS. Nvidia used the same sodder that resulted in serious issues.

 

[Rebel Leader]

That really bad if true... the cost for the Xbone's APU will be a lot expensive compared to the PS4's APU.

Xbone's APU = complex / big
PS4's APU = simple / small

How can the scenario changed so much from the last gen? MS created the new Cell.

and blast Blast Processing. When the sega gensis went against SNES the only advantage they had was a better processor even though SNES was better in everyother area. It was the only advantage they had.

 

[Sky Chief]

This is what happens when you design a gaming console and your first priority is not gaming.

 

[Minions]

RROD wasn't directly the fault of MS. Nvidia used the same sodder that resulted in serious issues.

Lets not downplay the lack of cooling as being a problem as well.... Proper cooling would make the solder problem iirrelevant.

 

[1-D_FTW]

I could see MS pushing back the launch. A good product can recover. A piece of crap is serious damage to the brand.

Even if it comes out as spec'ed, it's still significantly inferior to PS4. Nothing in here sounds like RRoD. You underclock to get to better yields. They have a massive box. With a massive fan. Running at half the power requirements of 360. Reliability wise it should be fine (or relatively speaking, because I have lousy luck with all MS hardware).

So back to the point: How does underclocking make it crap that damages the brand? If it's crap, you could make the argument it's just slightly crappier than it already was (because even at 100 percent spec, it's still a lot slower than PS4). I think it's fairly obvious MS is not running this war with games as the focus. And with the AAAA games they do deem desirable, they seem to be employing some real backroom moneyhatting to keep things in a positive light for them.

So it seems MS is either going to win or lose the war with marketing and money hatting. Everything else is just minor squabbles in the grand scheme. A delay would be a disaster under these circumstances.

 

[chubigans]

RUMOR: MS having eSRAM yield problems on Xbox One, downclocking CPU

I'm in agreement that the title doesn't encompass this conversation. Just something that indicates the "downclocking" element would be more descriptive.

I'll ask a mod and see what they think.

 

[SRG01]

2014 would allow them to most likely use 22nm process. Also if they commit to the delay early enough they could make design changes to the chip. Replace the ddr 3 memory controller with a ddr 4 or gddr5 controller. They could even up the cu's / rops

But that's assuming a fall 2014 launch.

22nm would most likely allow them to clock the chip higher. 2ghz jaguar 8 core with 1.2 or 1.4 ghz gpu would change things a bit. But who really knows


My guess is they just launch at 1.6/800mhz and just suffer through shortages which are going to plague both consoles.

Processes can't be pushed down arbitrarily. An immense amount of work is needed to adapt the design.

Also, my speculation in general: process parameters for RAM is totally different than CPU, which is totally different for GPU. Troubles with die integration, especially at that feature size, isn't surprising.

Also, which fab are they taping their chips from?

No, it would require a full silicon respin and tape out. Not possible in the time we have left between now and launch. It takes around 6-9 months for a full silicon respin. For MS to have done it they would have had to start the process back in November to allow for 3 months of mass production, stockpiling, assembly and testing.

Going by the rumours it seems very unlikely that MS have a silicon respin in the works that will be ready in time for launch. Not only that, there is no guarantee that it will solve the issues, sometimes Intel get to D0 stepping cores before they have consumer grade silicon ready, asking for a huge and complex APU to be ready on a B0/1 stepping core with a passable yield is a big ask and even a third revision may not be enough.

Waiting for a respin would be a poor idea, and waiting for magical process improvements is a worse one. Either they take the pain or they downclock. It is, for once, a black and white choice.

Well said. I'm just flabberghasted that, even according to rumors even last year, that they picked this particular process node WITH eSRAM. Are they insane? Were they hoping that design wins will pop out of thin air?

 

[gcubed]

That really bad if true... the cost for the Xbone's APU will be a lot expensive compared to the PS4's APU.

Xbone's APU = complex / big
PS4's APU = simple / small

How can the scenario changed so much from the last gen? MS created the new Cell.

people knew the APU would be more expensive, but it is more then made up for by the cost of Sony's RAM.

This is assuming they can pull acceptable yields

 

[Cosmozone]

If after all this the console still sells well, that would be the real tragedy (and probably will).

 

[SEGAvangelist]

If after all this the console still sells well, that would be the real tragedy (and probably will).

What's tragic about it? If the thing sells and people like the games, I don't see much in the realm of tragic.

 

[maabus1999]

No, it would require a full silicon respin and tape out. Not possible in the time we have left between now and launch. It takes around 6-9 months for a full silicon respin. For MS to have done it they would have had to start the process back in November to allow for 3 months of mass production, stockpiling, assembly and testing.

Going by the rumours it seems very unlikely that MS have a silicon respin in the works that will be ready in time for launch. Not only that, there is no guarantee that it will solve the issues, sometimes Intel get to D0 stepping cores before they have consumer grade silicon ready, asking for a huge and complex APU to be ready on a B0/1 stepping core with a passable yield is a big ask and even a third revision may not be enough.

Waiting for a respin would be a poor idea, and waiting for magical process improvements is a worse one. Either they take the pain or they downclock. It is, for once, a black and white choice.

If they just found about the issue, which is nuts since they should be at full rate production now, yes. They would then most likely look at just taking a yield hit, and start respins for future consoles, with the goal just to improve yield. I don't see any downclock of the size mentioned here as feasible, for a variety of issues.

 

[BRocknRolla]

I'll ask a mod and see what they think.

Sounds great Chubigans. Excellent job keeping the OP updated as well.

 

[SRG01]

people knew the APU would be more expensive, but it is more then made up for by the cost of Sony's RAM.

This is assuming they can pull acceptable yields

Rule of thumb in the semiconductor industry: Never use acceptable yield as an assumption.

 

[Nikodemos]

people knew the APU would be more expensive, but it is more then made up for by the cost of Sony's RAM.

Not precisely. Crappy GDDR5 modules will end up in low-end graphics cards, like they always did.

Dud Xbone APUs will end up in the rubbish bin. And with that transistor acreage, there's bound to be a good deal of duds.

It will definitely have more of an impact on MS's BoM than Sony's.

 

[Leucrota]

Delaying a system purely to give it better specs is a laughable proposition. That would almost never happen.

However, consoles are great because they are such a closed, studied system, you can find any computational bottlenecks. Thus, you can eliminate bottlenecks which developers will never have to worry about. If the components are downclocked THIS late in the cycle, I can forsee there being some tech issues developers will have to take into account, specifically some computational bottlenecks which will creep up and would not otherwise have happened.

 

[ShapeGSX]

No, it would require a full silicon respin and tape out. Not possible in the time we have left between now and launch. It takes around 6-9 months for a full silicon respin. For MS to have done it they would have had to start the process back in November to allow for 3 months of mass production, stockpiling, assembly and testing.

Going by the rumours it seems very unlikely that MS have a silicon respin in the works that will be ready in time for launch. Not only that, there is no guarantee that it will solve the issues, sometimes Intel get to D0 stepping cores before they have consumer grade silicon ready, asking for a huge and complex APU to be ready on a B0/1 stepping core with a passable yield is a big ask and even a third revision may not be enough.

Are you in the industry?

 

[BlazingDarkness]

How would a downclocked CPU compare to how it is now, and to PS4?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Shouldn't the thread title say GPU downclock instead of CPU downclock?

 

[ElTorro]

What's tragic about it? If the thing sells and people like the games, I don't see much in the realm of tragic.

It is tragic, because of the wasted potential. It could have been better as a gaming console than it will turn out to be due to reasons that most gamers simply do not care for.

 

[ilbambino]

Well, there's always the cloud....right? RIGHT?

 

[1-D_FTW]

Are you in the industry?

He could just follow the GPU industry. This sounds about right from what I've read in the past. I just don't follow it closely enough to have provided numbers like he did. It really isn't as easy as people are suggesting. Console design is a process that takes years and delays just aren't in the equation here.

 

[Meccanical]

Jesus christ poor Microsoft can't catch a break.

 

[maabus1999]

It is tragic, because of the wasted potential. It could have been better as a gaming console than it will turn out to be due to reasons that most gamers simply do not care for.

Only wasted if PS4 stands up as superior on more then paper. Still haven't gotten to the all important "games" portion yet.

Next week should answer some of those questions.