trickyhero
Member
They might get paid ok in some positions, but the job is tough and has insane hours and basicly no benifits in most places.
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"The problem with the gaming industry is that developers make too much"
- Thread starter kvothe
- Start date
Now you are running into the problem of having teams with different languages, labor habits, labor laws and in different time zones working with each other. This is difficult to do in any industry.
Globalization less than a decade ago got back to Pre-WWII levels of inter-connectivity. Globalization isn't as potent and far reaching as you imagine it to be.
All of that said, you are correct that there can be a benefit to lowering costs by outsourcing.
It is one direction the industry can go to lower cost but there are other ways as well.
My point was that earning power is different but I misspoke there. I should've said spending power.
Regardless you have a market that supports game prices with an MSRP of $60 and average sell rate of $40 being sold games by people whose countrymen couldn't afford buying games at either the MSRP or the average market price.
And hence why there is no B tier market. Why would i fund a B tier game if i'm paying AAA wages to keep it going?
I don't know software engineer but I know in the animation and filmmaking industry, if you work on a smaller project, you get paid less. If i worked on an animated commercial, I'm not making Dreamworks Char. Animator money.
So if I am working on a B tier game, expected to bring in less revenue and cost much less than the AAA priortiy at the moment, why am i getting AAA money?
Except you kind of did.
I'm sorry but this is a cop out. "it's always management fault" , but management can't change math. If they can't underbid for a contract or keep the payroll in check they are going belly up.
We are already seeing studios do various things to keep their wages costs down
at lower wages. Again this is already happening. Companies are failing and they are being replaced by smaller, nimbler indie companies that often pay a lower wage.
Any claims of brain drain in the game industry I think are massively overblown. Are people leaving, yeah I'm sure some are, but considering how incredibly compeitive the job marketplace is right now for game programmers, and how many states and countries are offering tax breaks for studios, this does not concern me.
And from what i've seen, most people upset in the industry aren't angry over money. They are more concerned with overall quality of life.
Spring-Loaded
Member
This is some extreme tunnel vision. Could not even get halfway through the quoted text
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
My god, this is fucking rage-inducing. Yes, let's blame the mega-budgets on the worker ants. Developing games is notoriously difficult and exhausting work. Note how the cunt spends all his time bitching about developers but hasn't got a word to say about publishers, y'know, the ones who hold back payments to devs for really fucked up reasons(eg. Metacritic bonuses, Bethesda, etc.).
It's such a piece of shit article. There are literally thousands of better paying jobs that you could compare with a fucking police officer's and question their relevance to "advancing the nation" or whatever you want to call it.
Sounds like one of these dipshits who liked to treat devs like shit and is now getting pissy that the best ones don't come cheap. Deal with it, you fuck. Maybe if publishers didn't set such exhorbitant budgets solely for the purpose of comparing their dicks with Call of Duty there wouldn't be such pressure to sell millions upon millions of copies of a game.
It's such a piece of shit article. There are literally thousands of better paying jobs that you could compare with a fucking police officer's and question their relevance to "advancing the nation" or whatever you want to call it.
Sounds like one of these dipshits who liked to treat devs like shit and is now getting pissy that the best ones don't come cheap. Deal with it, you fuck. Maybe if publishers didn't set such exhorbitant budgets solely for the purpose of comparing their dicks with Call of Duty there wouldn't be such pressure to sell millions upon millions of copies of a game.
GoofsterStud
Member
The problem is that game developers are already making less money than their potential for developing games instead of business software.
If you ask me the CEO, CFO, and Marketing staff make to much money.
If you ask me the CEO, CFO, and Marketing staff make to much money.
Yeah, if you want to talk about people who make too much, you'd better start with actors. They are essentially tools used to convey a story written by someone, as directed by a director. Yet they get almost all the praise -- P.R makes it sound like the actors are responsible for how good a movie is, and so forth. The amount of money they get is also absurd. They usually get far, far, far more money than everyone else involved in a project.
Not to mention the attention and power they get to enjoy because of the way movies are marketed.
MandrakeUK
Member
This article is a JOKE! If anything, they are paid far too less for the type of work stress/ hours/ and bullshit they have to put up with.
Fuck, now im pissed off after reading such waste.
Fuck, now im pissed off after reading such waste.
What a fucking ridiculous and frankly offensive article. As if taking the salaries of celebrity devs who happened to be in a right place / right time situation is somehow applicable to the rest of us that are commonly crunching in the highest cost of living areas of the nation. You sure as hell won't see me driving a 70k car anytime soon - you're welcome to come take a peek around the EA parking lot and see how many you can pick out though.
With the amount of money some projects rake in, the actual developers should be better compensated. Think of it as fair trade for the low job security when the next project you get assigned to is a stinker for reasons entirely out of your hands.
I grind my teeth anytime I hear this bullshit. The devs that are working hard to bring you your entertainment aren't the ones calling the shots for the problems that you attribute to our "laziness". "Lazy" might as well just be a synonym for "budget + schedule" at this point.
With the amount of money some projects rake in, the actual developers should be better compensated. Think of it as fair trade for the low job security when the next project you get assigned to is a stinker for reasons entirely out of your hands.
I grind my teeth anytime I hear this bullshit. The devs that are working hard to bring you your entertainment aren't the ones calling the shots for the problems that you attribute to our "laziness". "Lazy" might as well just be a synonym for "budget + schedule" at this point.
Photolysis
Banned
There are going to be a few who hit the jackpot and make mega bucks, but those are the very notable exceptions rather than the rule. And unless you're very lucky then even if you make an amazing game then most of the profits will to go to the publisher's wallet.
The game industry for the most part does not pay particularly well, especially when you consider the insane hours, and it's only though the number of people willing to enter the industry because "I want to make games" that the situation is semi-sustainable.
What's the profit sharing like on big profit titles anyway? I'm pretty sure that Bungie have it for example, but I hardly get the impression that their long-term staff are millionaires despite the massive success of the Halo series.
The game industry for the most part does not pay particularly well, especially when you consider the insane hours, and it's only though the number of people willing to enter the industry because "I want to make games" that the situation is semi-sustainable.
What's the profit sharing like on big profit titles anyway? I'm pretty sure that Bungie have it for example, but I hardly get the impression that their long-term staff are millionaires despite the massive success of the Halo series.
Nothing1016
Member
Don't devs work ridiculous hours? Especially during crunch time.
There's no "kind of" with an absolute statement. I didn't say salaries have zero impact and the statement you requoted twice bears this out.
Management retains a large portion of the fault because they are the ones who elect to run a business with a labor environment where workers with the same skill sets are paid more for less hours as a programmer and paid the same but get substantially better security and possibly benefits if you are an artist in other industries.
The average failure rate of new companies is 95% in a five year span which speaks more about management in all industries as well as how competitive various markets are and not just gaming.
As I said earlier there other factors besides management such as what can be achieved with the tools to make complex programs and how much cost efficiency goes up as you build a bigger game.
*shrugs*
In spite of how you seem to only see companies going in only one direction by breaking up into smaller entities there is a second path. Companies can and have gotten bigger in this industry. If salaries were too high this wouldn't be possible.
You are right that indie devs are earning significantly less overall. I'll admit when I mentioned indie devs would have to work with smaller budgets I was just thinking of team sizes getting smaller but not their pay and that was a brainfart.
Since these teams are smaller the scope and quality of the game has to be scaled back considerably. As a result they have to sell at a lower price and can't support the salaries the higher priced games barely do now.
That market reality bears out my point that what people in this industry are paid to do has more relevance than how much they are actually paid. If the larger teams spent their time making more games of the same quality and scope of indie games they most likely can't survive at all (which is probably why B-tier games in large studios have been on life support after the 90s) .
We need to step back one moment because some of our discussions are based on assumptions made by the article incorrectly.
40% of the respondents across the board are 6+ year veterans in the industry and have salaries in the six figure range.
http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/1108/game_developer_salary_survey_2012.php
This is totally out of wack if you are aware that the average American is employed with the same company for 5 years and if you look closely at the games industry they are no different.
The average salaries for the industry isn't as large as this survey implies.
Sure, 2 guys in their garage or maybe even a 10 man team will take a pay cut to build up a company.
An established dev will not attract talent with low wages. Programmers are not artists. There's plenty of stable positions for them in other industries. And a lot of demand too.
Notch lives in a cardboard box.
Jonathon blow only made enough to buy a Big Mac from Braid.
It seems we all generally get how stupid this guy is. I really have no fucking idea how you can arrive at the conclusion that people have too much money if they drive $80k cars. First of, it's not that much. If you really, really want a sports car, you can get one. I know a game dev. He own an apartment and a boat. I guess he's too rich for our blood, eh?
The lack of understanding personal priorities in this article is baffling. The lack of understanding that you can be rich even if you work in a low-paying job is even better. But stating there's something inherently wrong with the gaming industry based on this? I don't think I've ever seen such stupid thoughts published. Ever.
The lack of understanding personal priorities in this article is baffling. The lack of understanding that you can be rich even if you work in a low-paying job is even better. But stating there's something inherently wrong with the gaming industry based on this? I don't think I've ever seen such stupid thoughts published. Ever.
"Moral" objections to the money people make are out of place when they aren't exploiting anybody by doing it. The reason people criticize CEOs for their pay is because they get it by not giving their workers cost-of-living raises. People criticize Wall St. bankers for their pay because they get it by effectively making the rest of the world pay unearned rents to use the financial system.
Who are game developers exploiting? This guy is effectively saying that they're exploiting the companies they work for by being paid too much, preventing the companies from making a profit, and then making them go under. That's absurd. Devs aren't even unionized (as far as I know).
What does this guy think is stopping game companies from just hiring lots of devs at $50k a year and getting them to make a great game? Nothing, except that if they did, only people who couldn't cut it elsewhere would work there, and the game would suck/be late/be broken/never come out.
Who are game developers exploiting? This guy is effectively saying that they're exploiting the companies they work for by being paid too much, preventing the companies from making a profit, and then making them go under. That's absurd. Devs aren't even unionized (as far as I know).
What does this guy think is stopping game companies from just hiring lots of devs at $50k a year and getting them to make a great game? Nothing, except that if they did, only people who couldn't cut it elsewhere would work there, and the game would suck/be late/be broken/never come out.
Jim Sterling
Member
I think the bit that really gets me is the author is using the Facebook likes attached to it as actual proof of how correct he is. His other evidence is the fact that developers are saying he is wrong.
Y'know, when I make articles criticizing the game industry, I usually get developers telling me I'm right. Having people with the actual experience in the field you're criticizing saying you fucked up doesn't strike me as compelling evidence of righteousness.
Y'know, when I make articles criticizing the game industry, I usually get developers telling me I'm right. Having people with the actual experience in the field you're criticizing saying you fucked up doesn't strike me as compelling evidence of righteousness.
DemonCleaner
Member
just curious: whats left after tax and insurence when you have an anual income of about 50.000 in the us?
Captain Tuttle
Member
This piece reads like a bad N4G blog post.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Take off about 20% for taxes, more or less. Insurance depends on the plan, family or individual etc but could be up to $1,000/month or more
Edit. Changed from 33% to about 20%, been awhile since we've been in that tax bracket
CambriaRising
Member
Something like 40-45k after tax.
DemonCleaner
Member
Bet you have a PS3, Mr. Rockefella.
Captain Tuttle
Member
He's a bit more right than I was, I edited after googling this
http://interactive.taxfoundation.org/taxgraph/FAQ.html
That's just Federal tax though, you have State and sometimes City income tax on top of that. So yeah, closer to 25-30% when all is said and done. $50,000 isn't a big salary for people with a family.
dragonelite
Member
As a programmer you go into the game industry because its your passion.
Because outside the game industry chances are you will have better time schedule, less stress and better pay. Could have changed in the last 6 years.
But keep in mind in crunch time some developers work over 100 hours there was an naughty dog dev that went teacher route some time ago people said it was nuts.
He's also ignoring that clearly CliffyB's the exception, not the norm. There's debates to be had over his statements, but "all developers are paid too much" absolutely is not one of those.
CambriaRising
Member
Yeah, I didn't count state tax or insurance.
DragonSworne
Banned
Suggesting that someone would buy a $70,000 car when they only make $81,000 is the dumbest thing in the whole article.
I don't think anyone should tell the author about what movie stars make.
lol... the average game developer salary is not 6 figures.
Oh... so the dev works at Zynga. Well of course he gets paid a lot, no one works there because they want to. They work their because they want a big fat paycheck.
lol... the average game developer salary is not 6 figures.
Oh... so the dev works at Zynga. Well of course he gets paid a lot, no one works there because they want to. They work their because they want a big fat paycheck.
Are you a teacher, police officer, or a doctor?
If not, you clearly are making too much money. Your boss should cut your salary and put the saved money towards lowering the prices his business charges.
If the first page is right, that's essentially what it is.
This article is remarkably clueless about how wages are set in general. Given the level of specialization required to make video games, developers are underpaid for their skills, and wages are only as low as they are because the field is so competitive.
dragonelite
Member
Chinese 3d modeling sweat shops?
We should take back the fancy sports cars from these people!
The dev must earn money in order to be able to live and dev, but he must by no means live and dev for the purpose of making money.
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!
Time is everything, man is nothing: he is at the most time's carcass.
The dev must earn money in order to be able to live and dev, but he must by no means live and dev for the purpose of making money.
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!
Time is everything, man is nothing: he is at the most time's carcass.
Pay should be higher for police officers, teachers, and those who work for aid organizations, but it really shouldn't come at the expense of game developers. That's an extremely weird correlation to draw. Still, I don't think game organizations would necessarily lose anything by offering more opportunities for employees to offer money to the less fortunate. My family's given 10% of their annual salary for years to local charities.
Booya_base
Member
Total switcheroo when coming into this thread, I thought they were saying developers were making too many games and therefore not spending more time polishing one awesome game at a time and I was going to totally agree. The last paragraph is offensively bad, to boot.
To further his non-sequitur, he continues to say that you cannot increase the salaries of teachers, since it would add to the growing budget deficit.
How can someone know so little about economy yet have so many stupid ideas?
All this does is remind me how little we pay the important working members of our society. I don't think really think it is wrong that a game dev makes 81k a year, but it is ridiculous how much more that is than what a police officer is making for a job that is much, much easier.
Edit: also kinda shocking how many people say 80k isn't that much. Pretty much every grown ass working professional I know in my life would practically kill to make that much.
Edit: also kinda shocking how many people say 80k isn't that much. Pretty much every grown ass working professional I know in my life would practically kill to make that much.
TheContact
Member
Remember in the 80s, when it was easy to develop games, I remember seeing an article of a kid, a developer, too young to drive, posing in front of his Ferrari
LordMuffin
Member
Leave programmer's wage as it is, slash marketing budgets by a third. Here, is simple.
This article is beyond unbelievable.
This article is beyond unbelievable.