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Penny Arcade reopens the "dickwolves" controversy

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sonicmj1

Member
I remember this whole thing very clearly. Its easy to say that in hindsight, but the comic was ABSOLUTELY held as a source of 'massive outrage' back then. That they didnt back down on it when pressured eventually became the 'new' reason behind it all, but initially people were absolutely pretending that the comic was the worst thing ever.

I found it petty then and still do. Many comics, comedians, and frequently circulated jokes have done much worse on this and many other sensitive subjects.

Do you remember it that clearly?

I don't have a time machine, but I do have the GAF thread search function, which leads me back to the thread made about the initial strip and the "apology" strip that followed it. People discuss the strip, and engage a little with whether rape jokes are appropriate. This lasts 7 pages (50pp) in a 28 page thread.

Things don't explode until they removed the Dickwolves shirt from their store four months later, where the rolling discussion of responses to the strip, the shirt, and its removal lasted 5 days, stretching another 21 pages before being locked.

It's accurate to say there was some controversy about the original strip, but it was nothing compared to the firestorm about its response.
 

Vagabundo

Member
His views on transgendered people are a large part of why i think he's an awful person. I don't think that someone's bigoted, harmful views can be dismissed as just "his opinion" or anything else and in my opinion there is no room ANYWHERE, online or off, for bigoted views, be the sexist, transphobic, racist or otherwise. "Not wanting to be educated," as you put it, is precisely what makes him a shitty person.

I don't see how his - admittedly shitty and wrong - views on transgendered people make him a shitty person. Maybe willfully ignorant and stubborn. Although him having and stating those views might upset transgfendered people, to my knowledge he hasn't actively targeted any for any kind of harrasment, anyway he did apolise for the whole thing and I did think it was sencere:

I hate lots of people it’s true. But I’ve never hated anyone for their sexual orientation or their gender situation. I don’t hate people for superficial shit like that. I hate people for the way they act and I intend to keep doing that. It’s a very strange position to be in. This massive organization has built up around my friend Jerry and I. I know personally I’m an incredibly damaged individual. I’m not really sure I’m the best foundation for all this other stuff. I don’t want to be the reason people don’t go to PAX or don’t support Child’s Play or don’t watch the shows on PATV. I hate the idea that because I can’t stop being an asshole I hurt all these other amazing things.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/21/well-that-escalated-quickly

He is a self labelled asshole, and I think he might just run off with things a little, but I wouldn't put him in a the Bad Person box, because really, that box is stuffed to the brim with some really Bad People. I'd put him in the Bad/Good box with the rest of us, and it's a shame that the Good box is nearly empty.
 
I was unaware that PA sold a shirt supporting rape. What did this shirt say or depict in order to support rape?

dickwolves rape slaves, dickwolves appeared in the t-shirt (a pretty cool one now that i saw it). It's a bit far-fetched but one could make the association. If the comic was a "rape joke" i'm sure they would associate the t-shirt to rape support.

i really wish the people arguing here in mike's defense could put themselves in the shoes of those upset by this

i really wish you guys could just make an effort to see why some people might find stuff like this extremely nasty and hurtful

and when countless people continue to pour in without reading anything but the thread title, page after page, and make some throwaway comment about how none of the critics have a valid point of view without even considering the possibility that there are human beings in the real physical world being marginalized and disregarded by the things they say, that's even more hurtful

You mean like the blog post of elizabeth that censored my comment into the stasis of moderation for disagreeing with the factually wrong evidence that they posted a rape joke?

Btw, I really dislike posts that imply that we don't put ourselves in their shoes when trying to understand the problem.
 
Comedy should be off-limits to the moralists. And that line is funny and in no way excuses, justifies or supports rape or rape culture. I support the writer for defending himself.
 

homulilly

Banned
I thought the "rape comic" featured a male, and the transgender thing, well, I don't even want to have a take in subjects that are too far away from my reality to have a proper opinion... but please tell me what was exactly the raging misogyny part of his bad PR articles. Because I really want to know how he expresses his hate towards women.

You may want to consider actually researching issues before you spout your opinion everywhere in the future. The comic was only the start of the issue. Mike's (and Jerry's) response to criticism was to mock and shame people who disagreed with him, including making a dishonest, mocking comic that completely ignored all the actual criticism leveled at the comic in favor of bizarre straw man arguments in order to further mock and discredit people he disagreed with. He then went on to merchandise the controversy of him being an idiot rape apologist shitstain and encouraged people to wear dickwolves shirt to PAX, a public event, to further mock and generally make people who disagreed with his stance feel uncomfortable. He has continued to draw out this controversy for years either because hes such an entitled, infantile jackass that he still feels slighted over people not liking his rape joke comic or hes a sociopath and likes the publicity.

There was also his awful "free speech" rant against Kickstarter for pulling Tentacle Bento, a card game where the goal is to abduct and rape schoolgirls.

Please read http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline
 

Vagabundo

Member
i really wish the people arguing here in mike's defense could put themselves in the shoes of those upset by this

i really wish you guys could just make an effort to see why some people might find stuff like this extremely nasty and hurtful

and when countless people continue to pour in without reading anything but the thread title, page after page, and make some throwaway comment about how none of the critics have a valid point of view without even considering the possibility that there are human beings in the real physical world being marginalized and disregarded by the things they say, that's even more hurtful

There was a time in my life - about 5 years of it - when I was going to through some bad stuff with someone I love and there was something ordinary that would trigger things for us. At the time I railed against people - how can you be so insensitive - but looking back it was very unfair.

It was unfair to expect the world to tippy toe around our pain. It was unfair to expect them to even begin to understand it. We'd try and protect ourselves, we shut out those things that upset us, avoid them. We needed to at the time, but it caused others a lot of upset as they couldn't understand. So it was a poxy time for us and for people around us, with a lot of hurt feelings and it was just plain shit. They still supported us and helped us through it as best they could.

We healed, they forgot, time moved on, things got better.

You have the right to get upset, vent, etc, and we have the right to tell you to fuck off - and you have the right to call us an asshole for doing so.
 

homulilly

Banned
dickwolves rape slaves, dickwolves appeared in the t-shirt (a pretty cool one now that i saw it). It's a bit far-fetched but one could make the association. If the comic was a "rape joke" i'm sure they would associate the t-shirt to rape support.

It's not direct "rape support" but it's rape apologia which is making light of an incredibly serious cultural problem that primarily exists largely because most people do not take it very seriously.
 

Harlock

Member
This is such a ridiculous argument, I don't think you understand what freedom of expression actually means.

Freedom of expression doesn't mean you can say hurtful and stupid things and no one is allowed to critisise you. It actually means exactly the opposite. It means you can tell guys like the Penny Arcade guys what pieces of shit they are.

Yes. You can say. But the objective here is take down things you dont like. And in the internet everything will ofend someone. You can say or do anything unless is 100% pure, childish, safe.

You know why Microsoft drop Heavy Rain game? Because topics like this.

Welcome to a sterile world.
 
You may want to consider actually researching issues before you spout your opinion everywhere in the future. The comic was only the start of the issue. Mike's (and Jerry's) response to criticism was to mock and shame people who disagreed with him, including making a dishonest, mocking comic that completely ignored all the actual criticism leveled at the comic in favor of bizarre straw man arguments in order to further mock and discredit people he disagreed with. He then went on to merchandise the controversy of him being an idiot rape apologist shitstain and encouraged people to wear dickwolves shirt to PAX, a public event, to further mock and generally make people who disagreed with his stance feel uncomfortable. He has continued to draw out this controversy for years either because hes such an entitled, infantile jackass that he still feels slighted over people not liking his rape joke comic or hes a sociopath and likes the publicity.

There was also his awful "free speech" rant against Kickstarter for pulling Tentacle Bento, a card game where the goal is to abduct and rape schoolgirls.

Please read http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline

http://geekfeminism.org/2010/08/14/dear-penny-arcade-wtf/

Look at the first top comment and the unfriendly asshole reaction for having an educated opinion.

You act like either side was actually being polite and thoughtful in their criticism or anti-criticism.


Also I disagree with the dishonesty of the follow-up comic. I found it a great exercise of satire of what some people were implying about connotations about rape culture and the likes.

It's not direct "rape support" but it's rape apologia which is making light of an incredibly serious cultural problem that primarily exists largely because most people do not take it very seriously.

And then there's the lopsided effect that taking it very seriously and always believing one side of a rape story can derive into stories such as this:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=38179025

It's scarce but it exists. If a person can get convicted for a person crying rape, i'm pretty sure society takes it very seriously in law terms.
 

Forkball

Member
Any subject is open for comedy. Thus, people are bound to be offended or feel hurt. It comes with the territory. You may think a joke is tasteless or egregious, but others may in fact find it funny. I personally think the strip is funny since it is a deconstruction of a typical gaming trope, something PA has been doing for over a decade. The absurdity of the situation the slave is in contrasted with the completely callous response (from a wolfman no less) is funny to me as it highlights a seemingly glaring oversight in game design. I can certainly understand people being offended by anything rape related, and Gabe championing this strip mostly out of pure spite is immature in my mind, but I still think the strip is very effective in what it tries to do.
 
This is such a ridiculous argument, I don't think you understand what freedom of expression actually means.

Freedom of expression doesn't mean you can say hurtful and stupid things and no one is allowed to critisise you. It actually means exactly the opposite. It means you can tell guys like the Penny Arcade guys what pieces of shit they are.

Telling people what pieces of shit they are is one thing, demanding they remove content forever is another.

Hotline Miami 2 removing the implied rape scene is an embarrassment to the entire industry.
 

homulilly

Banned
I don't see how his - admittedly shitty and wrong - views on transgendered people make him a shitty person. Maybe willfully ignorant and stubborn. Although him having and stating those views might upset transgfendered people, to my knowledge he hasn't actively targeted any for any kind of harrasment, anyway he did apolise for the whole thing and I did think it was sencere:

having shitty wrong views can make you a shitty person especially when your shitty, wrong views are dismissing and mocking the identities and bodies of marginalized groups of people. His apology was weird self-pitying crap that was more about him than the person he was writing to and he didn't actually change his views.
 

KiTA

Member
What matters is that Mike Krahulik, public face of Penny Arcade and associated organizations like Childs Play and PAX, the largest videogame convention in North America (followed by PAX East, lol) is a raging misogynist, transphobic, rape apologist asshole. As a videogame enthusiast myself, this makes my blood boil.

Yes. We get that.

Move on.

Also: Just double checked the original comic - no women in sight, unless that gnoll warrior or the slave npc are trans.

Explain to me again how a male character ignoring the plight of a male npc being sexually assaulted by a male dickwolf (again, going to assume the dickwolf isn't trans here) is somehow evidence of misogynistic thought?

Especially since it's a made up character in a made up video game dealing with a made up monster doing made up things. To made up people. In a comic.

Hell, explain to me why some feminist blog even felt this was worth discussing other than in the context of "hey, look what I found to be upset about!"
 

homulilly

Banned
Telling people what pieces of shit they are is one thing, demanding they remove content forever is another.

Hotline Miami 2 removing the implied rape scene is an embarrassment to the entire industry.

Actually the rapes scene was an embarrassment to the entire industry
 

homulilly

Banned
Yes. We get that.

Move on.

Also: Just double checked the original comic - no women in sight, unless that gnoll warrior or the slave npc are trans.

Explain to me again how a male character ignoring the plight of a male npc being sexually assaulted by a male dickwolf (again, going to assume the dickwolf isn't trans here) is somehow evidence of misogynistic thought?

Especially since it's a made up character in a made up video game dealing with a made up monster doing made up things. To made up people. In a comic.

Hell, explain to me why some feminist blog even felt this was worth discussing other than in the context of "hey, look what I found to be upset about!"

Maybe your advice to "move on" should be directed at Mike Krahulik, the person who can't actually seem to move past mocking and shaming actual rape victims.
 
Look, Penny Arcade has a problem. On the one hand, they want the freedom to write absolutely anything they want in their comics without being criticized for it and anyone who doesn't like the comic can fuck right off. On the other, they want PAX to be a welcoming and inclusive place especially for sub-groups that have previously not been well-represented in the gaming community such as women, hence the banning of booth babes, and they don't want anyone to feel threatened there or made to feel uncomfortable.

There isn't inherently wrong with either of these goals. On a general level, I think most people would support both. And if they were capable of separating PA the comic from PAX the convention entirely, this probably wouldn't have been as big a deal. But unfortunately, there is overlap between them, and Mike chose to respond to a controversy in one of them with his mindset from the other (probably because he doesn't really have any other way of thinking). The comic received criticism on a handful of feminist blogs but no more. That was it. But rather than attempt to engage them honestly or even just ignore them (everyone saying feminists should simply not read Penny Arcade if they're offended by it is displaying a staggering lack of self-awareness), he chose to antagonize and mock them and his fanbase took up the cause. If you're going to respond the way Mike did to some bloggers criticizing your work, you don't get to tell anyone else to grow a thicker skin.

But even that wasn't enough, he had to make the shirt and then sell it, and then encourage people to wear it to PAX and brag about him wearing his own. Let's be clear about what this signified: It was a blatant "fuck you" to all of the women and actual sexual assault victims who had expressed feelings of discomfort about rape-related humor. No, it was not a banner of free speech or brave and noble weapon to wield against the scourge of censorship; if you have been told explicitly and in no uncertain terms by a group of people that "This joke makes me uncomfortable and here is why" and you proceed to make a shirt embodying exactly that joke then there are only two possible conclusions: 1) You have the short-term memory of a goldfish, or 2) You are deliberately intending to make those people uncomfortable. You have found their weak point and you intend to exploit it. You cannot claim ignorance or naivete as an excuse; you have been informed of how these people feel and you are using that knowledge to your advantage.

And hey, PAX is their convention. They have the right to do that. They have the right to flagrantly disregard the comments of actual women who expressed concern about how it would make them feel to go to the convention surrounded by people literally wearing rape joke T-shirts. They have the right to say that the convention will be just like the comic, a free-for-all for rape-related humor and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck right off, just like they should with the comic. They absolutely have every right to run PAX with the same mindset that they write their comic.

But then they don't get to claim that PAX is inclusive and everyone is welcome. They don't get to say that they want to make sure women are not made to feel uncomfortable the same way they often are at other conventions. They don't get to say that they care about PAX being better than other conventions about this. The dirty little secret that they never realized is that free speech and making people feel welcome are both perfectly noble ideals that are in conflict with one another and if you choose to side with the former in every possible circumstance, even if it means antagonizing rape victims, even if it means alienating women, even if it means going against your own stated goals, then you're not a martyr for free speech. You're just an asshole.

I think you're reaching here. It's much more likely a fuck you to people who they feel are trying to reduce their artistic freedom because those people believe it will offend women / sexual assault victims. Some of those people may be sexual assault victims but its not a "fuck you" directed at them because they are sexual assault victims.

I personally don't agree with the tendency of some to try and shout down anything they disagree with.There's nothing noble in saying "I'm willing to open a dialogue if you accept everything I say and change your wicked ways". That's not actually a dialogue.

It comes across as the belief that the non-privileged should be granted general special consideration* denied to the privileged, usually couched in suggesting that the ingrained power of the privileged makes it okay. That's not equality, its oppression by the non-privileged. As people have noted with regards to Tycho and Gabe being bullied, the people suggesting it should know better. I also don't think its particularly consistent , if the ingrained power of the privileged was sufficient to make it okay, it would exist only at their discretion.


*I concede ,in advance, that there are particular specific circumstances where the non-privileged should be granted special consideration, in order to move things towards equality (e.g. I support affirmative action , for limited duration , in order to move things to the point where power is sufficiently equally distributed that ingrained/institutional oppression no longer prevents equality).

i really wish the people arguing here in mike's defense could put themselves in the shoes of those upset by this

i really wish you guys could just make an effort to see why some people might find stuff like this extremely nasty and hurtful

and when countless people continue to pour in without reading anything but the thread title, page after page, and make some throwaway comment about how none of the critics have a valid point of view without even considering the possibility that there are human beings in the real physical world being marginalized and disregarded by the things they say, that's even more hurtful


I understand why people might find it nasty and hurtful. That doesn't mean I think Mike and Jerry shouldn't be able to make the joke. I find a lot of things nasty and hurtful but I don't want to end any discourse about them. It's also possible that people can find things nasty and hurtful that aren't intended to be that way, and that are valid alternative readings of a text, I don't think a text should be changed because of that, among other things it's generally possible to read almost any text and find something potentially offensive about it.
 

eastx

Member
So its not okay to call out a raging misogynist asshole for being a raging misogynist asshole now? People need to stop defending this dickhead.

People who defend blatant, unrepentant misogynists who have long since run out of excuses for not knowing any better are, in fact, terrible (or extremely ignorant, as I said).

Well no, and everything you've said in this thread has been exaggerated and downright crazy. I would try to learn to accept other people's opinions instead of hating them (hell, I don't hate you) instead of reading so much into/flat out making up crazy crap about a minor controversy. That doesn't help the position on said controversy you're taking at all; quite the opposite.
 
Why'd you edit out "and you're an embarrassment to this hobby"? I'm sure he wouldn't have been offended!

he/she is losing it from 3 posters replying and still wonders why a person that is probably getting negative unwarranted "feedback" (read: hatemail) for the sixth slave comic from many sources makes an insulting reply.
 
What matters is that Mike Krahulik, public face of Penny Arcade and associated organizations like Childs Play and PAX, the largest videogame convention in North America (followed by PAX East, lol) is a raging misogynist, transphobic, rape apologist asshole. As a videogame enthusiast myself, this makes my blood boil.

It's actually gotten to the point where I think significantly less of companies and personalities that continue to cooperate with PAX in any way. Including Giant Bomb, sadly.

For every reasonable defense of Krahulik in here there's 3 posts that are just straight up playing devil's advocate for antagonizing rape victims.
 

homulilly

Banned
http://geekfeminism.org/2010/08/14/dear-penny-arcade-wtf/

Look at the first top comment and the unfriendly asshole reaction for having an educated opinion.

You act like either side was actually being polite and thoughtful in their criticism or anti-criticism.


Also I disagree with the dishonesty of the follow-up comic. I found it a great exercise of satire of what some people were implying about connotations about rape culture and the likes.
Yeah uh a flippant comment to some clueless arrogant comment on a feminism blog and a leading figure in the gaming community spending years shaming and mocking rape victims over a period of years are really, REALLY not comparable. Nice try though.

And then there's the lopsided effect that taking it very seriously and always believing one side of a rape story can derive into stories such as this:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=38179025

It's scarce but it exists. If a person can get convicted for a person crying rape, i'm pretty sure society takes it very seriously in law terms.
Are you serious?? Are you REALLY fucking serious? You're wheeling out the (SLPC designated hate group) MRA arguments now? On the off chance you are actually serious, this is a problem with the criminal justice system not "taking rape too seriously." Jesus fucking christ.
 

Flatline

Banned
Maybe your advice to "move on" should be directed at Mike Krahulik, the person who can't actually seem to move past mocking and shaming actual rape victims.


Really? When did this happen? Reacting to ridiculous criticism is now considered shaming rape victims?
 
I think you're reaching here. It's much more likely a fuck you to people who they feel are trying to reduce their artistic freedom because those people believe it will offend women / sexual assault victims. Some of those people may be sexual assault victims but its not a "fuck you" directed at them because they are sexual assault victims.
I said the same thing and was basically ignored. Faceless and IrishNinja and the others in this thread who honestly believe that Mike was saying "fuck you" to rape victims as a group and feminists as a group don't want to hear it. They think this argument is completely invalid.
 

Nairume

Banned
he/she is losing it from 3 posters replying and still wonders why a person that is probably getting negative unwarranted "feedback" (read: hatemail) for the sixth slave comic from many sources makes an insulting reply.

Or, you know, maybe they have some common sense to realize when an insult is pointless and let it drop.
 
Yes. We get that.

Move on.

Also: Just double checked the original comic - no women in sight, unless that gnoll warrior or the slave npc are trans.

Explain to me again how a male character ignoring the plight of a male npc being sexually assaulted by a male dickwolf (again, going to assume the dickwolf isn't trans here) is somehow evidence of misogynistic thought?

Especially since it's a made up character in a made up video game dealing with a made up monster doing made up things. To made up people. In a comic.

Hell, explain to me why some feminist blog even felt this was worth discussing other than in the context of "hey, look what I found to be upset about!"

Did you see that Tumblr post someone just linked to. Someone spent like a week collecting about seven thousand links to this whole Dickwolf incident, spanning three years. It's beyond absurd. People get off on this stuff. It's just feeding into this whole internet sub-culture of selective moral outrage.

To suggest that actual rape victims have spent three years fighting this particular fight online would in fact be hugely diminishing and trivializing their experiences. If someone I knew had been raped and somehow got caught up in this online nonsense I would do everything in my power to get him or her back to the real world and away from these internet warriors, on both sides.
 

denshuu

Member
Can you make a joke about falling off a ladder? Because someone out there lost someone to a ladder accident.

No one perpetuating this dumb dickwolves "controversy" is going to respond to this comment. And it's a shame, because it would pretty much end this whole argument.
 

Nairume

Banned
Really? When did this happen? Reacting to ridiculous criticism is now considered shaming rape victims?

Shaming isn't the best way to describe it.

But what they are doing is creating an environment where rape victims feel uncomfortable by saying "Not only do we not care that you are offended by this, but we are going to capitalize on this and encourage our fans to wear this merchandise to events you might have wanted to go to because we bill them as safe places for everybody in the community."
 

Nairume

Banned
No one perpetuating this dumb dickwolves "controversy" is going to respond to this comment. And it's a shame, because it would pretty much end this whole argument.

No it wouldn't, because people being upset at the joke is far from the reason the controversy is being dragged out.
 

homulilly

Banned
GAF Protip for juniors: When you start flinging insults at people, it's time to withdraw from the conversation. Take a break, sip some tea, etc.

If I get banned for anything I've posted in this thread then it'll be a signal that this is not a community I want to be a part of. If being mad at a guy who thinks someone removing rape from a game in response to criticism is "an embarrassment to the industry" then yeah, I'm done.
 
Yeah uh a flippant comment to some clueless arrogant comment on a feminism blog and a leading figure in the gaming community spending years shaming and mocking rape victims over a period of years are really, REALLY not comparable. Nice try though.


Are you serious?? Are you REALLY fucking serious? You're wheeling out the (SLPC designated hate group) MRA arguments now? On the off chance you are actually serious, this is a problem with the criminal justice system not "taking rape too seriously." Jesus fucking christ.

Did you check the comment date? That's a link of the cute timeline you offered me (and had already seen quite some times today. Construct a well-thought comment -> get disregarded because it makes sense and doesn't cheer the geek feminist consensus.

I'm saying that I think rape is taken seriously outside of the word itself. "You got raped!" in game context is used with no real link to the real situation of a rape. But I guess that too is keeping the rape culture candle alive.

It seems it's very hard for a male to prove his innocence on consensual sex later mentioned as rape. Probably it's hard the other way around, I don't know. Speaking of justice, I think it's taken seriously and they wouldn't just say you deserve rape for wearing certain attire.

And speaking of society, I have literally never, EVER, seen someone joke about anything close to a real rape. Except family guy... on TV, by having a bull force Peter's pants off, raping him offscreen. Then I looked up on google and see that there's just one petition with 500 signatures, for a show that broadcasts on a huge part of the world, with quite an audience.

And then there's the complete disregard for any similar contextual use of sodomy, rape, murder, etc in PA because it wouldn't make sense that we are offended now but we weren't two years ago.

What are your thoughts on the CAD miscarriage fiasco? I'd like to know so I can understand you better.


Btw the punchline of my posts is that I was abused when I was 6 years old and i've lived my entire life with my mother
 
No one perpetuating this dumb dickwolves "controversy" is going to respond to this comment. And it's a shame, because it would pretty much end this whole argument.

There isn't a culture of underreported ladder accidents due to people who fell off of ladders being ashamed to report it.

Argument ended?
 

Flatline

Banned

Septimius

Junior Member
Yeah uh a flippant comment to some clueless arrogant comment on a feminism blog and a leading figure in the gaming community spending years shaming and mocking rape victims over a period of years are really, REALLY not comparable. Nice try though.


Are you serious?? Are you REALLY fucking serious? You're wheeling out the (SLPC designated hate group) MRA arguments now? On the off chance you are actually serious, this is a problem with the criminal justice system not "taking rape too seriously." Jesus fucking christ.

I have barely touched upon the whole PA ordeal itself, but I'd like to point out what you're doing, having read the last page, wherein every post you make is a bellicose and belligerent reply to something someone said. I get that something some of these people have done might upset you, but outright saying something like this:

having shitty wrong views can make you a shitty person especially when your shitty, wrong views are dismissing and mocking the identities and bodies of marginalized groups of people. His apology was weird self-pitying crap that was more about him than the person he was writing to and he didn't actually change his views.

makes you come off as way less understanding than what you want people to be. I think that's mainly ironic, but it's also important, if you really do want to voice the problem of certain groups, like transgender, that you can cause harm for the group and by people outside of the group, when you say you're advocating someone that needs it, but do it in such a hostile way.

As a person that has little knowledge of the transgender, when you pretty much yell at us how much we should stay of their case, you're not bringing understanding. In me, you instill a fear that if I don't say nice things about transgenders, I'll get a mouthful. I want to be nice to transgenders because they're nice people and do no wrong, not out of fear.
 

badgenome

Member
Life protip forever: Never stop antagonizing willfully ignorant bigots. Ever.

I think the prevalence of this attitude is why there is this whole stink in the first place. If you assume that everyone who disagrees with you about a sensitive subject is a rape culture apologist or willfully ignorant bigot, and believe that it is your life's mission to antagonize such people, then there can be no conversation. Just a shoutfest.
 
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