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Ars Technica: Penello's XB1 Numbers, Ars "Sniff Test" Analysis

Read the post above, it makes sense, ddr3 won't go faster than 68, esram can't go faster than 218gb/s ...the GPU can read them separately...but the figures can't be added. No transmission is from 1 place, esram can pass 218 ( and that's paper spec) I dunno if the GPU can even utilise that bandwidth on the x1 GPU when the ps4's sweet spot is apparently 176 and it HSS double the rope/cu,s etc

So what if they're not from one place. That means nothing. Could design a MMU that pools them together and the programmer wouldn't be able to see the difference. The fact that they are simultaneous means that as far as the GPU is concerned it has access to that much theoretical bandwidth.
 

Piggus

Member
I don't think Microsoft allows that when the games is behind a great partnership.

So what? The partnership is for DLC.

This "Microsoft owns the industry and all devs must bow to them" bullshit really needs to end. Obviously the differences won't be that huge but a dev isn't going to gimp one version of their game to appease the all mighty Microsoft.
 

The Flash

Banned
But DirectX!

In all seriousness though...the fact that Albert needs to keep going "I need to get back to you guys about your questions" in itself tells me enough about what he actually knows about the Xbone architecture. Don't shoot the messenger. :)

Why not have an actual engineer come on and do an AMA? And not that softball garbage they are doing on IGN.

Albert is looking into it.
Let me ask on the AMA. I think the team wanted to do something different. The people I'm talking about will be getting out there to give details.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=80976649&highlight=#post80976649

I hope he's able to bring the Technical Fellow in. An AMA with him would be fascinating to read.
 
When Albert started going off the rails, it was in a whole other thread, I warned him that it would end up "backfiring" when he started downplaying the difference..instead of learning from the backlash from that he doubles down and adds numbers to the mix..then suggests we should apologize to him when the truth comes out. Not exactly Dyak but amusing nontheless.
 

Vizzeh

Banned
So what if they're not from one place. That means nothing. Could design a MMU that pools them together and the programmer wouldn't be able to see the difference. The fact that they are simultaneous means that as far as the GPU is concerned it has access to that much theoretical bandwidth.

So if you even achieve that, what's its purpose or benefit over the PS4 ? Both RAM end products feeding the GPUs saturating them (176gb/s was supposedly a sweet spot for the ps4), don't we already assume the GDDR5 will have higher resolution and quality textures, more going on etc and the 32mb esram could be negated by being used as a frame buffer, then its GPU vs GPU (which I'm sure needs no comparison)...so its really down to usable bandwidth? CPU/GPU - in which case it may as well be 1000gb/s esram :p, its only good if its usable?
 

Flatline

Banned
we've known since over 3 months ago PS4 is the more powerful system, I don't know why it keeps coming up lol.


It keeps coming up because Microsoft keeps bring it up and it keeps backfiring on them. It seems that Microsoft does a better PR for Sony at this point than Sony does for themselves.
 

Cuth

Member
The simple fact is that GPUs do not care much about latency due to the loads they process and that claiming that the fillrate could be effected in the face of something GPUs are not really affected by is bullshit.
Going by your posts you seem pretty rational (and pretty knowledgeable, I think your posts are usually interesting), so I don't really need to explain (again) how I will treat two different opinion, one by you and the other by ERP, right? :)
Again, no offense, I'd love to have some direct experience with the new consoles, but I don't have enough knowledge to work as a game dev, so my position is stricly "person with more dev experience -> more believable opinion". Maybe it's disgustingly rational, but I'm a coder, after all (even if not in the game sector). :)

And BTW, the post of ERP that is quoted does not state that he was worked on the PS4 at all!
Yes, undeniable, but it's not the only post he has written on Beyond3d. :)
 

marvin83

Banned
So if you even achieve that, what's its purpose or benefit over the PS4 ? Both RAM end products feeding the GPUs saturating them (176gb/s was supposedly a sweet spot for the ps4), don't we already assume the GDDR5 will have higher resolution and quality textures, more going on etc and the 32mb esram could be negated by being used as a frame buffer, then its GPU vs GPU (which I'm sure needs no comparison)...so its really down to usable bandwidth? CPU/GPU

Hasn't it already been proven by dozens of ACTUAL hardware-knowledgeable people/hardware engineers that you can't add the bandwidths together?
This has been going on since the Xbone was announced and it's still getting dug up? 4 months later and people still trying to prove engineers wrong? Funny...

This is as bad as bringing up the GDDR5 latency controversy...
 

Vizzeh

Banned
Hasn't it already been proven by dozens of ACTUAL hardware-knowledgeable people/hardware engineers that you can't add the bandwidths together?
This has been going on since the Xbone was announced and it's still getting dug up? 4 months later and people still trying to prove engineers wrong? Funny...

This is as bad as bringing up the GDDR5 latency controversy...

That's what I thought, I'm just humouring him on what the outcome would be if it was possible to add it, I was under the impression it couldn't be (as you can see by my previous posts)
 

marvin83

Banned
That's what I thought, I'm just humouring him on what the outcome would be if it was possible to add it, I was under the impression it couldn't be (as you can see by my previous posts)

Lol. People just need to give it a rest.

Fact: PS4 is 41%(?) more powerful than the Xbone in terms of gflops
Fact: Xbone does not have 272gb/s or whatever secret sauce they're spouting these days. It was debunked 4 months ago and nothing has changed since. But if you want to keep drinking that MSFT Kool-Aid, go right ahead.
Fact: PS4 has hUMA. Wasn't it said Xbone does not?
 
Ars: "Just adding up bandwidth numbers is idiotic and meaningless. While the Xbox One's ESRAM is a little faster, we don't know how it's used, and the PS4's GDDR5 is obviously a lot bigger."

Ya.. but the dude Al asked does.
 

M_A_C

Member
Lol. People just need to give it a rest.

Fact: PS4 is 41%(?) more powerful than the Xbone in terms of gflops
Fact: Xbone does not have 272gb/s or whatever secret sauce they're spouting these days. It was debunked 4 months ago and nothing has changed since. But if you want to keep drinking that MSFT Kool-Aid, go right ahead.
Fact: PS4 has hUMA. Wasn't it said Xbone does not?

Nice facts with question marks.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Lol. People just need to give it a rest.

Fact: PS4 is 41%(?) more powerful than the Xbone in terms of gflops
Fact: Xbone does not have 272gb/s or whatever secret sauce they're spouting these days. It was debunked 4 months ago and nothing has changed since. But if you want to keep drinking that MSFT Kool-Aid, go right ahead.
Fact: PS4 has hUMA. Wasn't it said Xbone does not?

XBO does have a similar solution to hUMA but not to the extent the PS4 does since it has a split memory pool.
 
You know things are heating up when shill is being thrown around it and it isn't even referring to someone who actually works for one of the companies.
 

onanie

Member
You know . i wasn't going to post in here but i told myself if someone posts something about buying parity again i am gonna respond to this So please don't take this personally .

The idea of MS buying parity is simply silly.

First of all how would they regulate that ? MS going around devs and going :this part of the game runs better on PS4 . make it worse ?

And secondly Do you really expect Sony to just bend their knee to MS and say: we understand . please make the game on our system worse so we can achieve parity ?

Please . Please stop thinking that MS rules the game industry and everyone bends their knee for them . it is beyond silly .

I am not going to comment on who is right or wrong as all the games will do the talking and if it turns out somebody has been making up BS it will be clear as day to see for us and no amount of spin can disprove what we can see with our own eyes.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/microsoft-demands-simultaneous-multiplatform-releases/

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...crosoft-taking-pound-of-flesh-from-publishers

It can simply be a unilateral demand, and developers will yield to pressure of potentially losing half the install base. I realise the articles refer to content parity, but "content" as you know is a loosely defined term. Who is to say that even just a higher resolution texture is not to be considered extra "content"?
 

adixon

Member
So wait, has everything Penello said been defended by tech experts at this point? That's quite the article on the face of it.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
http://www.edge-online.com/news/microsoft-demands-simultaneous-multiplatform-releases/

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...crosoft-taking-pound-of-flesh-from-publishers

It can simply be a unilateral demand, and developers will yield to pressure of potentially losing half the install base. I realise the articles refer to content parity, but "content" as you know is a loosely defined term. Who is to say that even just a higher resolution texture is not to be considered extra "content"?

In those types of agreements, content refers to substantial modes and gameplay features. We've seen many multiplatform games with differences in visuals and minor console exclusive content.
 
You know things are heating up when shill is being thrown around it and it isn't even referring to someone who actually works for one of the companies.

Just made this for the occasion.

zPZTT25.png
 

onanie

Member
In those types of agreements, content refers to substantial modes and gameplay features. We've seen many multiplatform games with differences in visuals and minor console exclusive content.

I do wonder, how many third party visuals were better on PS3? And, is that just you defining what "content" means for them? I am genuinely intrigued by the legal terms.
 

Bundy

Banned
Defended? More like defeated.

Everything is either "No. That's a bold faced lie." or "There's no way of verifying that."
No matter what Penello, Major Nelson or any other MS PR guy on Neogaf says (or how much more a joining for damage control).
It doesn't change the fact that the PS4 is more powerful.
Some guys should give it a rest already.
 
No matter what Penello, Major Nelson or any other MS PR guy on Neogaf says.
It doesn't change the fact that the PS4 is more powerful.
Some guys should give it a rest already.

There was a time where they probably felt a need to reply to every crazy idea, just because they could and it was part of their job.
 
http://www.edge-online.com/news/microsoft-demands-simultaneous-multiplatform-releases/

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...crosoft-taking-pound-of-flesh-from-publishers

It can simply be a unilateral demand, and developers will yield to pressure of potentially losing half the install base. I realise the articles refer to content parity, but "content" as you know is a loosely defined term. Who is to say that even just a higher resolution texture is not to be considered extra "content"?

you misinterpreted those articles. MS doesn't have the marketshare to make demands like that. They currently have dominant marketshare...in the US. If third parties want to sell anything in the EU or JP, they have to satisfy Sony and their fans as well. Microsoft has no leverage outside of the US, and gimping games isn't going to fly.

on top of that, even when sony literally controlled 80% of the market, they couldn't stop GC and Xbox ports from outperforming their PS2 counterparts.
 

Red Mage

Member
While it does all come down to games at the very end, I believe the reason people are still bringing it up is because MS continues to do so. If they would let it go, I imagine most of GAF would too. Besides, whenever anything countering official claims showed up in the past, I saw it get posted during my time lurking here. Why should this be any different?

Albert,

If you're scared, go to church.


Best Regards,

NeoGAF.

...what does that even mean?
 

onanie

Member
you misinterpreted those articles. MS doesn't have the marketshare to make demands like that. They currently have dominant marketshare...in the US. If third parties want to sell anything in the EU or JP, they have to satisfy Sony and their fans as well. Microsoft has no leverage outside of the US, and gimping games isn't going to fly.

on top of that, even when sony literally controlled 80% of the market, they couldn't stop GC and Xbox ports from outperforming their PS2 counterparts.

How did I misinterpret those articles when Microsoft did make those demands on their "content submission and release policy"?
 
While it does all come down to games at the very end, I believe the reason people are still bringing it up is because MS continues to do so. If they would let it go, I imagine most of GAF would too. Besides, whenever anything countering official claims showed up in the past, I saw it get posted during my time lurking here. Why should this be any different?

This. as much as the hardcore like to toss numbers back and forth, it's games and what one DOES with the hardware that will make or break the system. Very few gamers would have taken a Neo-Geo over a SNES, even if the former was MUCH more powerful.

At this point, it's what MS and their talking heads are saying that have become the headlines, not the merits of the system. Nelson and Albert- do yourselves a favor and stop the bleeding by backing off and just letting the system speak for itself.
 
How did I misinterpret those articles when Microsoft did make those demands on their "content submission and release policy"?

because release date language and feature complete language is fairly standard. BOTH platforms have had that for some time. When one console gets a release 6 months earlier than another, there's usually a significant financial incentive to do so, and only for high profile titles unlikely to be turned down.

that is absolutely NOT the same thing as "Sony's game can't be prettier than ours." That language has NEVER flown, even from platform holders (nintendo with the SNES, Sony with the PS1/2) with far more marketshare than MS.

edit: hell, both of those articles are from 2011 anyway. they're two years out of date and don't even apply to the XBone.
 

onanie

Member
because release date language and feature complete language is fairly standard. BOTH platforms have had that for some time. When one console gets a release 6 months earlier than another, there's usually a significant financial incentive to do so, and only for high profile titles unlikely to be turned down.

that is absolutely NOT the same thing as "Sony's game can't be prettier than ours." That language has NEVER flown, even from platform holders (nintendo with the SNES, Sony with the PS1/2) with far more marketshare than MS.

edit: hell, both of those articles are from 2011 anyway. they're two years out of date and don't even apply to the XBone.

Forgive my ignorance, but I would like to see that Sony has the same language in their "Content Submission and Release Policy", since SCEA accused them of being "unreasonable".

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...crosoft-taking-pound-of-flesh-from-publishers

And it seems my point still stands, "content" remains loosely defined.
 

nib95

Banned
Wow. That sounds like a damn strong accusation.

I'd assume you have some damn strong proof?

He always pulls that tantrum when he can't rebut any post I make that might put anything Microsoft related in negative light.


EDIT: Lets just stop quoting him since I think it's been taken care of.
 
It's pretty simple actually:

Church is where people go to worship their god.

The Christian god is believed to have created the world in 6 days.

If you divide 6 into two equal parts, you get 3 and a half.

Half Life 3 confirmed!

LAST IMAGE, I SWEAR.

All+hail+lord+Gaben+_a14f2081291cc46f1a214aad7b106057.jpg


It was just too appropriate, dammit!
And I'm in a mood.
 

mujun

Member
I wish they'd just be honest with this shit and do their best to make up for any deficiencies in other ways.
 
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