Angelus Errare
Banned
Well look on the bright side, this thread will eventually be picked up by "journalists" if it gets long enough.
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Xbox One's Scaler May Be Applying a Sharpening Filter to All Sub-1080p Games
- Thread starter madmackem
- Start date
Irrelevant. That's a direct grab. Blacks crushed like this means that something is wrong with the output itself.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Not if Full is still sending out a limited signal (as in MS never fixed said bug). Then you get clipping. Though knowing MS it's probably intended because it "pops".
Kabuki Waq
Member
They're probably looking but can't tell the difference and think we're a bunch of nutcases.
Exactly. That's a problem with the output. Not a problem with your monitor or television being set to the wrong RGB range. No amount of brightness or gamma tweaking on your TVs end is going to compensate to the lack of black detail being presented from the source.
Timu, do you think you could do us a favor and try and do another brief set of captures at limited RGB and see if that resolves the crushed blacks? It'd be great to have another set to compare it to and at the very least, if it is a problem with full range support we can notify other users so that their playing experience is at the very least visible.
Judging from Blim's Forza shot a few days ago (which he said was 99% sure to be limited) it seems it's not the only issue. And if you're referring to DF's explanation for their poor BF4 captures, it was bullshit.
Did we ever get details as to what exactly that bug was? Is it something like it's internally pushing 0-255 but when it actually displays the output it pipes it through as 16-235?
GoofsterStud
Member
That would be a good choice, I'm dreading seeing what dead rising 3 looks like on my plasma.
Angelus Errare
Banned
How exactly was it BS? You can reproduce the clipping with PS4 footage by setting the RGB range to 16-235 in photoshop.
That what it seems like, honestly though I have doubts it's a bug, IIRC the 360 suffered from the same problem early on. I somehow doubt they've managed to make the same exact mistake twice.
Let's just clarify some terminology.
The Xbone has the exact same hardware scaler as the PS4 - the Radeon GPU. Scaling is a fixed function built into the GPU. If you're ever talking about a hardware scaler, this is it. Nothing magic about it. Unless MS have got AMD to tweak the fixed functions (highly unlikely), then it will literally be the same as the PS4.
Using the GPU to scale is no difference from the 360/PS3. Neither had dedicated scalers, but just used the scaling functions of their GPUs. In the case of the PS3, the scaling function in the RSX had a huge bug in it, which mean that it would only scale images horizontally. So the vast majority of PS3 games did in-engine software scaling .
In multi-format games, it is very common that the multi-platform engines employ software scaling. This bypasses the GPU fixed functions and does the same thing in software. Gives devs more control, and the same software scaling routines would be used across all platforms. Even first party games might choose to employ software scaling. The 360 Halo games did, for instance.
Once the image is scaled, it then goes to the consoles video output, then out to your TV.I believe this is where the 360 modified the image to shift the gamma, to produce an image with higher contrast. Edit: As per Foxix's post, it was the Xenon GPU that tweaked the gamma.
So either the Xbone does a similar trick with itsgamma GPU output, of the sharpened/gamma shifted output we're seeing is being done by choice by devs. If it was the former, the it would apply to 100% of Xbone games (which I don't believe is the case?).
The Xbone has the exact same hardware scaler as the PS4 - the Radeon GPU. Scaling is a fixed function built into the GPU. If you're ever talking about a hardware scaler, this is it. Nothing magic about it. Unless MS have got AMD to tweak the fixed functions (highly unlikely), then it will literally be the same as the PS4.
Using the GPU to scale is no difference from the 360/PS3. Neither had dedicated scalers, but just used the scaling functions of their GPUs. In the case of the PS3, the scaling function in the RSX had a huge bug in it, which mean that it would only scale images horizontally. So the vast majority of PS3 games did in-engine software scaling .
In multi-format games, it is very common that the multi-platform engines employ software scaling. This bypasses the GPU fixed functions and does the same thing in software. Gives devs more control, and the same software scaling routines would be used across all platforms. Even first party games might choose to employ software scaling. The 360 Halo games did, for instance.
Once the image is scaled, it then goes to the consoles video output, then out to your TV.
So either the Xbone does a similar trick with its
It's scary how some GAF-fers are more knowledgeable about this than many gaming journalists. It shows how many quality gaming journalists are out there. Few.
Gillian Seed
Banned
IIRC the 360 doesn't have exactly the same problem. If the bone does indeed output limited as limited but full as limited as well, that's definitely a glitch. We need to be able to compare the different output settings.
The 360's problem had nothing to do with a glitch or scaler problem, it was entirely due to the unit's GPU gamma curve being entirely mangled to produce a slightly higher contrast image.
Couldnt be any worse? what lol. Problems expressed on this forum by a small vocal group arent indicative of the entire user base of the industry
Because they said that the console was actually outputting limited even though they selected full, and their gear was set for full.
If this were the case, the image would be washed out, and not crushing blacks, because their capture card would expand a limited source to a full one.
Conversely, blacks get crushed when a full output is taken up by a limited input.
To properly reflect what happens in these different conditions with photoshop, you need multiple steps, not just mess with the input range.
Thanks a bunch! So... this is with limited RGB?
That's... that's really weird. That looks the same to me? What's going on here? Is it just me, because I can't discern any notable difference in black level?
So the black is still crushed regardless of Full RGB or with Limited RGB? That's fucked up.
Not everyone is as technically competent as Crytek.
So will I be lynched if I say the artificially sharpened one looks the best? The simple upscale looks muddy.
Sharpening brings out details, but also enhances jaggies and other artefacts like crazy.
In still shots, the sharpened image might look nicer, but in motion it would be an eyesore. Surely the first thing everyone does when getting a new TV is turning the sharpening setting down to off? Sharpening and video games just don't mix.
Yes.
yup we figured that out in the earlier pages now this thread is just going in circles.
I do hope MS fixes this in a patch soon.
No, it's ok for you to like that. The complaints are about lack of choice. MS isn't letting people not take the sharpened version
Really now? Because there sure were people (including yourself) still trying to argue that this was related to Digital Foundry's bugged Full range output nonsense.
and then I said maybe the full range is screwed up and you agreed with me.
I also said the limited range seemed fucked, and the whole "full range is bugged and outputs limited instead" from DF made no sense.
You later claimed that it was much better by switching to limited, but we're getting loads of screens showing that it's not the case at all.
So I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue.
Yeah there's no difference between them it seems.
Made a separate thread for crushed blacks: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=722069
it is definitely better switching to limited. full range is much worse. But thats not saying limited is correct.. just better.
ShinMaruku
Member
You gusy got to stop calling them journalists. They are press.
Teletraan1
Banned
That is BS. Some games used lower resolution last generation but some game series actually increased their resolution as the generation went on. GTA5 had a higher resolution on PS3 than GTA4 did. This is some urban myth and I wish people would stop with it.
http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1113344
Read that thread and educate yourself. Just because a game like COD flopping between devs reduced resolution so incrementally doesn't mean PS4 devs are going from 1080p->720p.
Wow, that threads god damned stellar. Awesome, thanks for sharing.
You're the best. <3
Ok, here's Dead Rising 3, and I increased the gamma because it looked way worse than before.
How do you not get bitten by the zombies when you can hardly see what's down there? I'm on my well-calibrated Mac desktop at work with color profile set up specifically for web/screen design and I can hardly see the details in the black colors. OTOH, I guess they can claim that it increases tension because you can hardly see things!
And wow, I didn't even noticed the comment before:
0_o;
It's so bad that I don't even want to show it, lol.
HORRORSHØW
Member
You have to, though. For science.
Chobel
Member
Your eyes won't regret this:
Fuck this shit! It's too dark.
Yeah that's on 5 bar gamma, lol.
DirgeExtinction
Member
Wait, don't tell me this is what the game looks like while you're actually playing. o.oYour eyes won't regret this:
HORRORSHØW
Member
Holy. Is the whole game played in perpetual darkness?Your eyes won't regret this:
Only early on, lol, then I changed it. Next time I post DR3 screens they'll be 9 or 10 bars because even 7 bars isn't enough, ROFL.