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Forza 5: The monetization is even worse than you think.

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nib95

Banned
The gaming journalists of the biggest newspaper in Norway calls for a boycott.

Y56hCxYl.jpg



Tranlation:
"-Boycott this game"
"A lot of people rage against Forza 5".

Youch.
 
The gaming journalists of the biggest newspaper (and most visited website) in Norway calls for a boycott.

Y56hCxYl.jpg



Tranlation:
"-Boycott this game"
"A lot of people rage against Forza 5".

Or you could just play the game and earn credits instead of buying tokens?

Gold medal in a six lap spa race in an S class car with no assists, hardest drivatars and maximum affinity will net you 37,000 credits and that's AFTER 4000+ are taken away for excessive use of rewind.

Race lasts about 15 minutes lapping at 2:30

Mathematically, it amounts to roughly seven hours play time to reach a million credits.

Four races per day.

An hour or so of play a day can net you a million credits per week.

It could take less than two months of play to buy a car for 6 million (like the Lotus F1 car) if you played this game for a minimum of one hour per day.

please slap with ruler if vastly incorrect math

The tokens are expensive, but they aren't necessary. At all. If you don't want to invest real money then just put your effort into playing the damn game.


I understand less cars and tracks being a peeve, but non this. If you had to grind Planetside style (pretty damn hard) just to unlock minor stuff then I'd say its too far, but the way people are going on its if somehow any kind of lengthened progression system that fully negates any need to spend money is a bad thing.

The next topic will be about how games are too easy/accessible and are no longer a challenge and blaaaah blaaaah blaaaaah.
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
I would bet that Forza took a lot more money to make than DOTA2.

Why the fuck would I care how much money they spent on making the game?
If they spent even more money, the game would have enough content on-disc so people don't feel the need to rage at this as much.
 

Chitown B

Member
The tokens are expensive, but they aren't necessary. At all. If you don't want to invest real money then just put your effort into playing the damn game.

^this

The only other thing I could see people having valid complaints about are the day one DLC cars that you can only get by buying them with real money.
 

Chitown B

Member
Why the fuck would I care how much money they spent on making the game?
If they spent even more money, the game would have enough content on-disc so people don't feel the need to rage at this as much.

this doesn't make any sense. it's the equivalent of saying "why the fuck would I care how much the tech to make 4K TV's costs? If they spent even more money making them, there would be even higher costs in them" ---- and then they'd cost less? huh?
 
Why the fuck would I care how much money they spent on making the game?
If they spent even more money, the game would have enough content on-disc so people don't feel the need to rage at this as much.

Spoken exactly like someone who has no idea what it takes to produce that content.
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
this doesn't make any sense. it's the equivalent of saying "why the fuck would I care how much the tech to make 4K TV's costs? If they spent even more money making them, there would be even higher costs in them" ---- and then they'd cost less? huh?


This is hilarious. Money spent on development equals value now?
The tech in a 4K TV has inherent value in itself, as the materials are ridiculously expensive. Software does not work that way.

I pay for what's on disc. Not hopes and dreams of the developers.
 
check in would've been unnoticed if you're like most gamers and log in as you turn the system on. The other two things you mentioned are conjecture. No court would uphold that a publisher could take away ownership.

the checkins would've been necessary. otherwise people would rip a disc, and give it away or sell it. double dipping for themselves.

This isn't really the place for it, but many, many people clearly had a problem with those checkins, not the least of which were US armed forces members, and parents who don't want their kids online without supervision.

And the other two are not conjecture. It was stated very clearly that resale would be allowed or disallowed at the publisher's discretion. Honestly, I really wish that would've happened, because I want a legal battle over this type of BS. I want to know, once and for all, what I legally own, and I want publishers forced to provide a mechanism to ensure that I won't ever lose what I buy. Failing that, it'd at least be nice to know for certain what I DON'T own, so I can adjust my spending according to what I'm actually getting for my "purchase".
 
I hate this stuff also, I just don't ever spend real money on small transactions like that. I don't mind playing a game with microtransactions, I enjoy the feeling of playing through without paying money like a lot of other people do.
 

NoPiece

Member
It could take less than two months of play to buy a car for 6 million (like the Lotus F1 car) if you played this game for a minimum of one hour per day.

In other words: grind 60 hours for one care.. Perfect description why this will be the first forza I am not going to buy.
Maybe when it is on sale for $9.99

It might be OK if you are a student (or unemployed), and own one game, and are trying to maximize the value of your purchase (and ignoring the value of your time). But I have a job, family, kids, and other games I want to play as well. So let me at least pick whatever car I want in free drive, and enjoy 10 minutes in a McLaren, Bugatti, Lotus F1 or whatever.

Microsoft decided they'd rather go whale hunting and kicked the average joe in the balls. that's bullshit...

edit: btw, a desirable Forza would have motivated me to buy an Xbox One, but for now I'm skipping both consoles. So this debacle is costing Microsoft not only a game sale, but a console sale..
 
This is hilarious. Money spent on development equals value now?
The tech in a 4K TV has inherent value in itself, as the materials are ridiculously expensive. Software does not work that way.

I pay for what's on disc. Not hopes and dreams of the developers.

1. Now? What do you mean now? Heh, Forza 5 offers the best driving physics its offered yet, it was fully remodeled. It now more accurately models tires and differences in surfaces. Now, maybe that has no value to you, But I race automobiles in life. I can tell you that different tire compounds can completely change a vehicles performance, and the same tire on a different surface is a completely different challenge to drive at the edge of grip. Doing the tire research, using real cars to test and take measurements, all that shit costs money. For me, the development cost lead to added value. Its not really T10s problem if you dont have enough seat time in a real car driven in competition to pick up on the difference.

2. discs, lol.
 
Spoken exactly like someone who has no idea what it takes to produce that content.

What it costs is irrelevant. They're in control of their costs, not us. They set the MSRP, not us. If $60 isn't enough, they can charge more. They can sell DLC, etc. But it's disgusting to sell a game that's designed to try and make people buy parts of it again.

Admittedly, it's a fine line, because there's nothing particularly wrong with allowing people to 'fast track' their progress with cash. Although let's not forget, that sort of thing used to also be free via built-in cheat codes, or via a purchased external cheat device.

I'm honestly not sure where Forza sits on that line. I see the math in here, and it's pretty awful. But I also see people claiming that their actual experience is fine. So I bought the game to see for myself. I've only finished the first series of races, so I can't comment yet, though.
 

ElNino

Member
In other words: grind 60 hours for one care.. Perfect description why this will be the first forza I am not going to buy.
Maybe when it is on sale for $9.99

It might be OK if you are a student (or unemployed), and own one game, and are trying to maximize the value of your purchase (and ignoring the value of your time). But I have a job, family, kids, and other games I want to play as well. So let me at least pick whatever car I want in free drive, and enjoy 10 minutes in a McLaren, Bugatti, Lotus F1 or whatever.

Microsoft decided they'd rather go whale hunting and kicked the average joe in the balls. that's bullshit...

edit: btw, a desirable Forza would have motivated me to buy an Xbox One, but for now I'm skipping both consoles. So this debacle is costing Microsoft not only a game sale, but a console sale..
Well, I have a job, family, kids, etc and I'm only on the 2nd series but I have the P1 and the F1 in my garage already (could have the Bugatti as well but I don't like the car).
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
1. Now? What do you mean now? Heh, Forza 5 offers the best driving physics its offered yet, it was fully remodeled. It now more accurately models tires and differences in surfaces. Now, maybe that has no value to you, But I race automobiles in life. I can tell you that different tire compounds can completely change a vehicles performance, and the same tire on a different surface is a completely different challenge to drive at the edge of grip. Doing the tire research, using real cars to test and take measurements, all that shit costs money. For me, the development cost lead to added value. Its not really T10s problem if you dont have enough seat time in a real car driven in competition to pick up on the difference.

2. discs, lol.

Then it offers value to you, congratulations, Mr. Schumacher.
To us "normals" who don't "race automobiles in life" this microtransaction garbage still comes across as a slap in the face.

He foolishly stated that higher development costs imply an inherent higher value of the end product. Which is laugable, and the thing I commented on, i'm not sure what your personal lifestory on how tire-grippage changed your life has anything to do with the original post.
 

Chitown B

Member
This isn't really the place for it, but many, many people clearly had a problem with those checkins, not the least of which were US armed forces members, and parents who don't want their kids online without supervision.

And the other two are not conjecture. It was stated very clearly that resale would be allowed or disallowed at the publisher's discretion. Honestly, I really wish that would've happened, because I want a legal battle over this type of BS. I want to know, once and for all, what I legally own, and I want publishers forced to provide a mechanism to ensure that I won't ever lose what I buy. Failing that, it'd at least be nice to know for certain what I DON'T own, so I can adjust my spending according to what I'm actually getting for my "purchase".

are you able to resell your Steam games or your iPhone games? I really don't see the difference other than a plastic disc vs. digital bits on a hard drive. However, after being pressed, MS was saying that resale would be allowed by them - otherwise third parties had reign over their own properties, as it should be.
 
If $60 isn't enough, they can charge more.

hmmm... yea like that wouldnt go over like a fart in church. Half of the reason this microtransaction garbage (i hate it to by the way, fuck the lazy, grind that shit out like a man.) exists is because costs of AAA titles production keeps going up but people arent into paying more for the games...

But I also see people claiming that their actual experience is fine. So I bought the game to see for myself. I've only finished the first series of races, so I can't comment yet, though.

Most of the people complaining about how much money you make racing are doing it wrong.
 

BigDug13

Member
What it costs is irrelevant. They're in control of their costs, not us. They set the MSRP, not us. If $60 isn't enough, they can charge more. They can sell DLC, etc. But it's disgusting to sell a game that's designed to try and make people buy parts of it again.

Admittedly, it's a fine line, because there's nothing particularly wrong with allowing people to 'fast track' their progress with cash. Although let's not forget, that sort of thing used to also be free via built-in cheat codes, or via a purchased external cheat device.

I'm honestly not sure where Forza sits on that line. I see the math in here, and it's pretty awful. But I also see people claiming that their actual experience is fine. So I bought the game to see for myself. I've only finished the first series of races, so I can't comment yet, though.

I see it as a huge confict of interest. Developers insert a way to make money from people who want to bypass the grind for cars so developers make additional money. Developers are also in charge of figuring out how long the grind should be. Should developers make the grind totally fine and cause nearly all players to avoid giving them more money, or should developers make the grind slower to entice more people to give them more money?

I'm not saying they absolutely slowed it down, but I'm saying when the same team who has put in a way to make money from transactions is also in charge of figuring out how quickly someone should progress in their game without transactions, it's a conflict of interest. It is easily corruptible. "If we lengthen the grind by 20% over the last game, we have projected that 10% of buyers will opt to buy tokens and will net us X dollars, should we do it?"

What's the answer going to be for people who labored on a game and have the possibility of making X dollars more? Will they champion the gamer and avoid making more money to maintain a faster pace of advancement? Will they champion their wallets and make more money by slowing down the pace of advancement?
 

Chitown B

Member
Then it offers value to you, congratulations, Mr. Schumacher.
To us "normals" who don't "race automobiles in life" this microtransaction garbage still comes across as a slap in the face.

He foolishly stated that higher development costs imply an inherent higher value of the end product. Which is laugable, and the thing I commented on, i'm not sure what your personal lifestory on how tire-grippage changed your life has anything to do with the original post.

did I say value? I said cost, if I read myself right. Dev cost. They did a lot more work and spent a lot more money, hence the regular game cost is justified, just like any other game. There are much much crappier games out for full price. At least in Forza you can get everything "on disc" (or download) without paying any real money, pretty easily.
 

Chitown B

Member
hmmm... yea like that wouldnt go over like a fart in church. Half of the reason this microtransaction garbage (i hate it to by the way, fuck the lazy, grind that shit out like a man.) exists is because costs of AAA titles production keeps going up but people arent into paying more for the games...

yes. Think about games like Chrono Trigger on cartridges in 1995. It cost $80. $80!! In 1995. With the CPI inflation calculator, that's $122 in today's money. Yet games are still $60. Which is the same as $39 in 1995.
 
Then it offers value to you, congratulations, Mr. Schumacher.
To us "normals" who don't "race automobiles in life" this microtransaction garbage still comes across as a slap in the face.

He foolishly stated that higher development costs imply an inherent higher value of the end product. Which is laugable, and the thing I commented on, i'm not sure what your personal lifestory on how tire-grippage changed your life has anything to do with the original post.


No, it offers value not just to me, but to anyone who can appreciate it.
 

KaYotiX

Banned
yes. Think about games like Chrono Trigger on cartridges in 1995. It cost $80. $80!! In 1995. With the CPI inflation calculator, that's $122 in today's money. Yet games are still $60. Which is the same as $39 in 1995.

Most kids these days don't know what a Snes is..... They never had to pay the cartridge premium.
 

Axass

Member
Or you could just play the game and earn credits instead of buying tokens?

Or you could boycott so next time they think thrice before putting macrotransactions in a full-priced game. No matter their impact. Shouldn't be there, cheat codes should.
 
The problem with Forza is as much as they have you working harder to gain cars you also have to buy DLC and by the time you get things to where you want in lets say 8 months to a year from now, there will be a new Forza game announced. It's like Forza is on the verge of becoming a yearly game like COD. I learnt my lesson with Forza 4 and probably won't pick up a Forza title ever again.
 

Rains

Member
Well after playing the game for awhile now its clear that the game push's the user towards tokens you cant gift cars there are no more reward cars and payouts are less then the old forza games
 
This is my first driving sim and the grind is really not all that bad (at least coming from MMO world). If you are playing the game and learning to drive without assists and playing to gold in each race you will be generating a good amount of money and XP to level (and therefore get more $).

If they want to gouge people who are too lazy or shit at the game to properly earn rewards than that is fine by me. I used to think racing sims were not for me because of the difficulty but that is part of the fun. People are just too used to instant gratification these days...
 

QaaQer

Member
Then it offers value to you, congratulations, Mr. Schumacher.
To us "normals" who don't "race automobiles in life" this microtransaction garbage still comes across as a slap in the face.

He foolishly stated that higher development costs imply an inherent higher value of the end product. Which is laugable, and the thing I commented on, i'm not sure what your personal lifestory on how tire-grippage changed your life has anything to do with the original post.

genuinely funny riposte. cheers.
 

NoPiece

Member
Well, I have a job, family, kids, etc and I'm only on the 2nd series but I have the P1 and the F1 in my garage already (could have the Bugatti as well but I don't like the car).

How many hours have you played, because if they guy I was quoted was accurate, you haven't slept since the Xbox One launched.
 

nib95

Banned
How many hours have you played, because if they guy I was quoted was accurate, you haven't slept since the Xbox One launched.

I believe Turn 10 changed the rewards system and gave out free credits or something to make up for some of the backlash. A temporary fix to try and draw attention away from the bigger issue.
 

w00zey

Member
How many hours have you played, because if they guy I was quoted was accurate, you haven't slept since the Xbox One launched.

He probably also got Forza rewards. I checked my rewards and got 1 million. In not many points I will score another 2 million just for going to forzawhateveritis.net and hitting claim rewards.
 

w00zey

Member
I believe Turn 10 changed the rewards system and gave out free credits or something to make up for some of the backlash. A temporary fix to try and draw attention away from the bigger issue.

I don't see why this would be a temporary fix. It is a good way to get you to go to their website.
 

SanctusVeritas

Neo Member
GrizzleBoy said:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy
Well, here's my input into this whole debacle.

I've played Forza 5 for about 15 hours in total and earned about 1,000,000 credits. I also play with no assists and hardest drivatars.

I was initially bummed about the no free cars, no selling cars and high prices, but it feels like not having so much freedom has actually given me better focus on what I do have to drive.

I started off with a Honda civic and to keep my payouts high, the next car I bought was a Honda NSX-R to keep my affinity rating/bonus rising.

I've done the vast majority of my racing in the NSX and after starting out being absolutely incapable of even cornering with a rear wheel drive car at speed I know that thing inside out and have now started getting so good with it that I can set top 5% times with it. Its also the first time I've spent hours messing with properly tuning/testing my upgrades instead of just running to a new car when I can't go faster.

I redeemed my 3,000,000 credit and free car reward this morning, yet I've spent this evening lapping and racing in my NSX-R. Not spent a penny or touched any of the new cars.

It feels like that car is way more...' important' to me than cars have been in previous Forza games. Its nowhere near easy to drive and even though I know I could probably find another car to compete with the Ferraris/koennigseggs and McLaren F1s the game keep throwing at me, it feels like 'my' car in Forza 5.....from the time spent driving it to learning how to set it up how I like.


When I save up my credits for the super expensive cars I want to buy (the lotus e21 pls) I guess ill have the same feeling of attachment.

By this time in previous Forza games id have a bunch of cars id be either swapping/ignoring/only using for one race/buying parts for and not tuning them at all.

For reference of how I race, I spend most of my time in free play doing races with high number of laps, trying to drive as clean as possible, then watching replays of the races. The same thing I do with my other favourite racing game Project Cars. I only drive the Formula B in that game.

For the more casual guy, I guess this system is obviously going to play on impatience, but imo as long as the progression system doesn't actually make it impossible to buy the cars you want, its not a problem for me. Like I said, two, weeks to get 1,000,000 credits means that I can easily unlock the cars that I want before year end.

Yes its more of a grind, but longer progression systems aren't inherently bad and in my case its done some good for me I'm terms of how I treat Forza games and the cars I have.

Just my 'pinion.

I am glad this perspective as Given because I bought Forza and was almost about to trade it for another game but even though it is a grab for money its as equal of a reward and a proud feeling for those who earn those top cars on their own without spending money.

You can sit back and laugh at the obscene amount that others spent.

Jumping straight to the top cars is usually what I do in video games but this may actually force me to enjoy a game for once!
 

Chitown B

Member
Most kids these days don't know what a Snes is..... They never had to pay the cartridge premium.

sure, but that's besides the point. plus the parents/adults paying the $60 for a game almost definitely know what a SNES is and paid that in the past (or at least were around during those prices in such a time)
 
How many hours have you played, because if they guy I was quoted was accurate, you haven't slept since the Xbox One launched.

Or he could be a Forza Rewards player, logging in with thier live account long time Forza players can cash in rewards for achievements across all the games back to FM2 (the first one on 360). I'm a teir 6 player, I got gifted 6 million CR.
 

Chitown B

Member
Or he could be a Forza Rewards player, logging in with thier live account long time Forza players can cash in rewards for achievements across all the games back to FM2 (the first one on 360). I'm a teir 6 player, I got gifted 6 million CR.

I popped in F2 back in 2008 but played only a couple races - but even so, my account says 2008.

Started played F5 and after only a week I already had Tier 3 and 3 million CR for F5. Beginner.
 
In other words: grind 60 hours for one care.. Perfect description why this will be the first forza I am not going to buy.
Maybe when it is on sale for $9.99

Well, I've only played for 10-15 hours and have this car that is supposed to take "60 hours" to grind for along with a whole bunch of others as well. And I have 2 million credits banked which I'm saving for an Indy car. I'll have that very soon. I think that if you do play the game, perhaps rent it so you don't have to put out much cash, you will find that all this discussion on XX hours of grinding for XY car, etc, etc. is coming from those who have yet to even play it. Oh, and I haven't spent a penny more than the purchase price of the game.
 
Well, I've only played for 10-15 hours and have this car that is supposed to take "60 hours" to grind for along with a whole bunch of others as well. And I have 2 million credits banked which I'm saving for an Indy car. I'll have that very soon. I think that if you do play the game, perhaps rent it so you don't have to put out much cash, you will find that all this discussion on XX hours of grinding for XY car, etc, etc. is coming from those who have yet to even play it. Oh, and I haven't spent a penny more than the purchase price of the game.

Yep, I know the systems and games haven't been out long. And I know they are prohibitively expensive to most people. But damn there's alot of opinion with ZERO hands on going on in this forum right now.
 

ElNino

Member
How many hours have you played, because if they guy I was quoted was accurate, you haven't slept since the Xbox One launched.
Not too many hours played so far... less than 10 for sure.

I believe Turn 10 changed the rewards system and gave out free credits or something to make up for some of the backlash. A temporary fix to try and draw attention away from the bigger issue.
Yes, I received credits from the Forza Rewards program. I don't know why you would think it is temporary though when it has been going on for some time with Forza 4 and Horizon. Forza 5 is the new one (obviously) so they have just started awarding cars/credits for it.

I don't see why this would be a temporary fix. It is a good way to get you to go to their website.
Precisely, I don't understand how rewarding users who have played the other games is a bad thing. You don't even need to do anything to have your progress tracked... I have a buddy who is Tier 5 and he's never even logged into the site yet. He's going to get a boat load of credits though once he does.
 
Well, I've only played for 10-15 hours and have this car that is supposed to take "60 hours" to grind for along with a whole bunch of others as well. And I have 2 million credits banked which I'm saving for an Indy car. I'll have that very soon. I think that if you do play the game, perhaps rent it so you don't have to put out much cash, you will find that all this discussion on XX hours of grinding for XY car, etc, etc. is coming from those who have yet to even play it. Oh, and I haven't spent a penny more than the purchase price of the game.

You "have" this car? Is it the Lotus? And was it a gift from Turn 10 for being a VIP player?

ohjesuschristisaidiwouldnttalkaboutthisgameanymoreohgodihaveaproblempleasehelpmesomeone
 

Chitown B

Member
And if you bought it last weekend during the sale it was only 3 million.

sorry, yes I forgot to mention that.

I was gifted the F1 Lotus, The La Ferrari, AND 6 millio CR. I have 7.25mil and I've driven probably 8 hours.

Pretty sure he was responding to the statement by transformer that he hadn't spent a penny more than the disc price and was implying he had bought DLC of the VIP pack - however that's included in the LE which might be what he bought.
 
I was gifted the F1 Lotus, The La Ferrari, AND 6 millio CR. I have 7.25mil and I've driven probably 8 hours.
Would you say your experience is representative? Or are you on the high end?

VIP double rewards? Loyalty benefits from previous games?

So people should expect to make nearly a million credits per hour? Because that's the first time I've seen as estimate anywhere even close to that.
 
Actually, how does one get a mod to fix a thread title? This one could use a little attention. Should probably read...

Forza 5: The monetization fuss was completely overblown. Never change, Gaf.
 
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