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“i don’t think i like prestige games” - Burford

Bryank75

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Yet here you are giving him shit for all the same stuff you admit?

He’s biased, so are you.

End of
I never said Gears was shit... cause it's not. Gears are decent games but lets not pretend that they do anything particularly innovative.
They have boring encounters, just the same as many games... the bread and butter gameplay of Gears has been the same forever and they have not tried to re-imagine or mix up anything.

You can use the same arguments for many games.... Call of Duty, for instance, had you repetitively in the same situations over and over. Destiny too, you would have to protect the Ghost while it did 'something'.

The guy uses a lot of words to say nothing.
 

jts

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I also like Uncharted 1 more than Uncharted 2 🤔
The older I get, the less I care about stories and setpieces.
I like 2 more than 1, but I still really like 1. After 2 it has been downhill in what comes to my personal enjoyment with ND games, although I still respect the games and what they're achieving. Except Uncharted 3. Fuck that shit.
 

FranXico

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I like 2 more than 1, but I still really like 1. After 2 it has been downhill in what comes to my personal enjoyment with ND games, although I still respect the games and what they're achieving. Except Uncharted 3. Fuck that shit.
In retrospective, even with its issues, I actually prefer Uncharted 3 over 4. The pacing in 4 was way too slow, ending with a very steep difficulty slope at the very end (although I enjoyed the falling ruins section very much).
 

ROMhack

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Haven't read the article but I don't mind these games... sometimes. If I'm in the mood for it, they're honestly great. You can chill out and play, not get lost too lost in the details, a lot like a decent TV show on Netflix. The biggest issue I personally have is that there's too many. I have no motivation to play more than one every couple of years.

The debate also has its roots in film criticism. A critic called Manny Farber wrote about the excesses of blockbuster films calling them bloated and lacking a strong central subject. He dubbed them 'white elephants' and advocated instead for 'termite art' - smaller, more imperfect films that do a lot well but don't rock the world.

P.s. I assume we're talking about Sony's usual bill of third-person story-driven action games.
 

-Arcadia-

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I don’t know about this guy, but I genuinely think if you pulled PS exclusivity and Sony involvement off these games, things would get a lot more realistic, a lot quicker.

I think Sony games meet an acceptable, good, threshold, but they are some of the most overrated games I have ever seen.
 

jts

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In retrospective, even with its issues, I actually prefer Uncharted 3 over 4. The pacing in 4 was way too slow, ending with a very steep difficulty slope at the very end (although I enjoyed the falling ruins section very much).
Yeah, I have issues with 4 too (no shame in admitting I had to lower the difficulty in those hard parts in order to not lose my mind), but the level of polish, the production values, the scope and variety, and the sort of wrap up to the series that it is, makes me have it higher on the list of Uncharted titles to own or play, although I understand the way you feel - 3 is much closer to the original games in pacing and structure.
 
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Bryank75

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Haven't read the article but I don't mind these games... sometimes. If I'm in the mood for it, they're honestly great. You can chill out and play, not get lost too lost in the details, a lot like a decent TV show on Netflix. The biggest issue I personally have is that there's too many. I have no motivation to play more than one every couple of years.

The debate also has its roots in film criticism. A critic called Manny Farber wrote about the excesses of blockbuster films calling them bloated and lacking a strong central subject. He dubbed them 'white elephants' and advocated instead for 'termite art' - smaller, more imperfect films that do a lot well but don't rock the world.

P.s. I assume we're talking about Sony's usual bill of third-person story-driven action games.
I think he mostly takes aim at Uncharted and TLOU... Naughty Dog games.

They are not my favorite PS games but I do enjoy them.
I agree with FranXico FranXico about the pacing in 4... they improved the gunplay but I felt that I really didn't do enough of it till the end and the difficulty was a spike towards that point.

I enjoy GOW, Spider-man, Horizon, BB and Ratchet and Clank more than the ND games recently, they are just fresher.

I mean all those games have awesome gameplay and great polish and they are very different. It's mostly because of ND that PlayStation gets this label of TPS, setpiece walking sim..... it's not accurate for the rest though.
 
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Gamernyc78

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I think he mostly takes aim at Uncharted and TLOU... Naughty Dog games.

They are not my favorite PS games but I do enjoy them.
I agree with FranXico FranXico about the pacing in 4... they improved the gunplay but I felt that I really didn't do enough of it till the end and the difficulty was a spike towards that point.

I enjoy GOW, Spider-man, Horizon, BB and Ratchet and Clank more than the ND games recently, they are just fresher.

I mean all those games have awesome gameplay and great polish and they are very different. It's mostly because of ND that PlayStation gets this label of TPS, setpiece walking sim..... it's not accurate for the rest though.
Lost Legacy was what UC4 should have been. The pacing was great with better gameplay imo..

TLOU I saw nothing wrong tht game had me ridiculously hooked. I still grin thinking about places like the basement with the generator, becoming Ellie in the snow level and other parts. Gameplay, stealth, graphics all top notch imo.
 
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Bryank75

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Lost Legacy was what UC4 should have been. The pacing was great with better gameplay imo..

TLOU I saw nothing wrong tht game had me ridiculously hooked. I still grin thinking about places like the basement with the generator, becoming Ellie in the snow level and other parts. Gameplay, stealth, graphics all top notch imo.
Yes, I like TLOU a lot. But I found it emotionally draining when the thing happened with the brothers... then the Giraffe didn't really hit me hard like other people and the crate parts annoyed me a little. But the combat, ending and many other parts were fantastic, brutal and really gripping.
I really should get Lost Legacy...
 

Yoshi

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I'm about halfway through the article and the man hasn't talked one bit about Gameplay, I think I'll just stop reading.
He does later on and I think he does have a point there. He probably thought focussing on the story is the right angle early on, because this is what the games he talks about are most celebrated for. I disagree with the story focus, but I think that the article is still interesting and has some valid points. It could have used some editing though, because it entirely over-explains some of its points, in particular pertaining to story-content.
 

DanielsM

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Because Sony wants all their exclusives to be a "cinematic experiences" with small grains of actual game play sprinkled in for good measure.
Hm. I take it you didn't play Days Gone? Literally, to me its like 3-4 games in one as far as game play. Now someone might say they don't like the game play, but there is tons of it.

For the record, I liked TLOU, its in my top 10 campaigns and I actually enjoy the MP (for what they were trying to do), UC4 to me is a high quality titles, but boring for me.
 
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Bandi

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It's hilarious and ironic to read articles like this, especially now that gears 5 has just released.

All of these "criticisms" are ok when it's a Sony game but they don't apply to a game like Gears because...?
yup, the whole industry is sucking on sonys cock. seriously. most sony exclusive games are basically just movies but bad games... but no one cares as long as it has a great story lol
 

DanielsM

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yup, the whole industry is sucking on sonys cock. seriously. most sony exclusive games are basically just movies but bad games... but no one cares as long as it has a great story lol
- Bloodborne
- Days Gone
- Horizon Zero Dawn
- Racket and Clank
- God of War (I haven't actually played this yet)
- Spider-Man (just started this)

Are movies? Something like Detroit or Heavy Rain, sure, but its apparent you haven't played them (Sony game). Even a game like TLOU has tons of game play elements. Something like UC4 to me isn't really a movie, its a little paint by numbers game play but not a movie... but at least I could see the connection to a movie with that one. Actually, Bloodborne and Horizon Zero Dawn have almost no cutscenes, let alone being movies.... they only thing HZD has is a very bad narrative animation tree structure. Something like Days Gone can be played for 5-10 hours before any real story starts - which was actually a criticism of the game by many.

My guess - people aren't playing the games they are talking about or even watching enough videos to form an opinion worth discussing. Something even like TLOU to me isn't a movie, its a linearish semi-survival horror game... with areas that expand from time to time. Not sure how people get that its a movie, it actually makes stealth fun, imo.
 
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zenspider

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It's hilarious and ironic to read articles like this, especially now that gears 5 has just released.

All of these "criticisms" are ok when it's a Sony game but they don't apply to a game like Gears because...?
Because they don't have an XBox?
 

Shrap

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My buddy Cory and I finished Gears 5 this morning.

We sat there in stunned silence. I wanted to cry because of something the story absolutely earned. I was thrilled and gobsmacked and heartbroken and so much more. It is the best game I played this year. Cory, as we recovered, kept describing it as ‘lean.’ There was nothing unnecessary in the game. If it was there, it’s because it had to be there.

Gears 5’s design was so thoughtful, so aware of what it was doing and how to accomplish that. It’s a thoroughbred of a game, a brilliant thing, a truly special game. It felt like playing an AAA game for the first time, seeing what that was truly like.


Something seems disingenuous about this article but I can't quite put my finger on it... :pie_thinking:
 

Gargus

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Well thats the great thing about games, there are so many types for everyones tastes.

Like mindless action? Like simple button pushes to see colors in mobile games? Like strategy and thought? I like less interactive and more cinema style? Hard? easy? Etc. Well games have you covered because there all kinds. Its stupid to just sit and complain you dont like one specific type of game or games from a certain developer and criticize them. If you dont like it then dont play it. But youre opinion means nothing at all except to those who already agree with you but everyone else doesnt care, preaching to the choir is a lazy mans game. Just because he doesnt like something doesnt mean others cant and do like them. He is just some random internet guy to me and I disagree with him and I am also just some random internet guy where my opinion is different so neither of us is qualified to be right.


I think there are people that would disagree with those statements.

Neither one is a marriage or perfect.

Would you agree?

And I would agree with him. And yes I will agree that there are people who will disagree. But thats a pointless statement because when it comes to opinion there will always be someone who will agree and someone who will disagree. There is nothing on this planet that is opinion based that everyone agrees with, never has been and never will be. So whats the point? People are allowed to like things and think things. Just because you dont agree with other people doesnt make them wrong, but if does make them wrong then youre wrong also in their eyes so who exactly is right? Answer is neither of you.
 
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ROMhack

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Well thats the great thing about games, there are so many types for everyones tastes.

Like mindless action? Like simple button pushes to see colors in mobile games? Like strategy and thought? I like less interactive and more cinema style? Hard? easy? Etc. Well games have you covered because there all kinds. Its stupid to just sit and complain you dont like one specific type of game or games from a certain developer and criticize them. If you dont like it then dont play it. But youre opinion means nothing at all except to those who already agree with you but everyone else doesnt care, preaching to the choir is a lazy mans game. Just because he doesnt like something doesnt mean others cant and do like them. He is just some random internet guy to me and I disagree with him and I am also just some random internet guy where my opinion is different so neither of us is qualified to be right.
Yep definitely this. I honestly think the culture of games would improve dramatically if all parties -- including gamers themselves -- stopped profiting from negative hot takes.
 
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mckmas8808

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Here is a rambling, self indulgent blog post written for people like me who get very little out of Naughty Dog games.


It has made a lot of people mad, and people on the internet like being mad so enjoy and you are welcome.
Blog Post like this are so boring, unless you're that specific niche person that doesn't like ND games AND you need your opinion validated by someone. Otherwise, this whole blog post is a "SO WHAT" type of article. Some of us don't like Zelda Breath of the Wild also, but that doesn't actually mean anything!
 
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Don't think I have a lot to say about these games in particular; most of Sony's games and MS's bigger story-based games would be guilty of the things the article brings up.

But that said, I am a bit concerned about the increasing push for a "cinematic experience" in games. Stuff like Uncharted may be fun to play, but if you're just looking at them for their story, they wouldn't even cut the mustard for a C-tier Hollywood production. As a game it may be somewhat equivalent to Indiana Jones, but as a story falls short of even the weaker Jones flicks by a country mile.

And now you've got games like Star Citizen and its massive budget undoubtedly due to hiring notable actors and scriptwriters, and Death Stranding coming where I know more about the actors/actresses in the game than what the hell the game itself really is! Cyberpunk and its getting Keanu is another thing, it just feels like with AAA Western games in particular they're going to start relying more on literally aping Hollywood talent to justify going bigger and bolder with the theatrics and budgets; we might even start seeing that with some Japanese AAA games like that From game getting George R.R Martian on as a chief writer.

I don't want a gaming future where the only way to placate non-gamers and casual gamers is to throw talent at them that isn't necessarily from the industry itself. Where the first names they start thinking of when a new massive game's announced isn't a Miyamoto or Molyneux, but a Keanu Reeves (and this isn't a diss to them; Keanu's a great actor these days and I'd imagine a cool dude IRL) or (god forbid) Kathleen Kennedy.

But I think the worry is justified; especially considering how Hollywood is doing these days (it's like Disney >>>>>>> everybody else), I can easily see more and more Hollywood and television talent hopping right over to gaming, especially when they see how well-received games like Death Stranding are. I know there's been actors and film/television writers in gaming going as far back as the late '80s, but the difference there was that 1: the tech wasn't at a level that really attracted most of the big names and 2: when things like FMVs started blowing up, it was usually the C and D-list talent getting hired for them, and those games were never marquees in the industry at large.

And the biggest difference? Back then there was no SJW movement trying to force gaming to act as indoctrination for the masses. There wasn't an era of #CancelCulture to push around, or things like that. If Hollywood talent starts proliferating more and more with the biggest spaces in gaming, you're GOING to see gaming get even MORE targeted and MORE sanitized than it already is! And I don't think most of us want that.
 

Thabass

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Read the the whole thing, but I don't have much time now, so I bullet point my thoughts:

  • I agree that Sony is the worst offender in "Prestige Games".
  • Although I enjoy them and will continue playing them.
  • I see where Buford is coming from in this, but he's way too critical of games being made.
  • Games are a business and many people don't get to watch / read things already told in other stories.
  • There's nothing wrong with recreating already made stories into video games.
  • A retelling =/= a bad game.

Finally, here's a quote from the article: "I think the mark of a good game is somewhat defined by how easy it is to find intelligent writing about it"

IF YOU'RE SAYING THAT GAMEPLAY IS LESS IMPORTANT THAN IT'S STORY THEN YOU'RE PLAYING GAMES FOR THE WRONG REASON.

With that said, I don't think he meant that. But it struck a cord with me. A good game is more dependent on the gameplay than how well the story is written. Full stop.
 
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zenspider

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I wish his point wasn't couched in so much pretentious bullshit, or I wouldn't be so embarrassed to agree.

I know we all get sheepish about it here, but the fact is if I was a student of film, I'd be mocking at gaming's attempts to ape the medium as well.

I’d say that prestige games are expensive AAA-type games that imitate better art without really understanding or improving upon them in any way, often using fairly boilerplate mechanics to accomplish this.
I wouldn't have taken that path, but I agree.
 

Virex

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Hm. I take it you didn't play Days Gone? Literally, to me its like 3-4 games in one as far as game play. Now someone might say they don't like the game play, but there is tons of it.

For the record, I liked TLOU, its in my top 10 campaigns and I actually enjoy the MP (for what they were trying to do), UC4 to me is a high quality titles, but boring for me.
Got the platinum so clearly I did play Days Gone
 
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Bryank75

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Got the platinum so clearly I did play Days Gone
So clearly you are aware that there is no less gameplay in a Sony game than any other.... I mean, I can see people take issue with forced walking in Uncharted 4 but that was the only case that it really was apparent and irritated me.

The rest of the portfolio is gameplay heavy. Particularly Horizon, Ratchet, days gone, Spider-Man, Bloodborne, shadow of the colossus.
Even TLOU is 95% gameplay, that is proven by the multiplayer which is still very popular.
 

mckmas8808

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Finally, here's a quote from the article: "I think the mark of a good game is somewhat defined by how easy it is to find intelligent writing about it"

IF YOU'RE SAYING THAT GAMEPLAY IS LESS IMPORTANT THAN IT'S STORY THEN YOU'RE PLAYING GAMES FOR THE WRONG REASON.

With that said, I don't think he meant that. But it struck a cord with me. A good game is more dependent on the gameplay than how well the story is written. Full stop.

Here's the thing. Why are we acting as if Sony's 1st party games don't have great gameplay? Just last year they released God of War and Spiderman. Those are some of the most fun I've had this whole generation "gameplay" wise.
 

DeepEnigma

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Here's the thing. Why are we acting as if Sony's 1st party games don't have great gameplay? Just last year they released God of War and Spiderman. Those are some of the most fun I've had this whole generation "gameplay" wise.
It seems to be a new meme of extremes. Can't use the nuance of "both", it has to be one or the other, but that is also depending on franchise, console, developer, preferences as well. All of a sudden nuance comes back when it comes to those personal likes.

The same NUmeme is going around about Kojima, as if gameplay was ever an Achilles' heal for him.

I'm getting tired.
 
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Saruhashi

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"Games can be better than this."

It's one of my most hated phrases.

The truth is that there is SO MUCH scope in this medium that you can flat out ignore the things you don't really like and STILL have more hours worth of gameplay than you'd ever be able to manage in a lifetime.

I think you can look at prestige games as "with a big enough budget and a big enough scope what is even possible here?".

I'm not a huge fan of RDR2 buuuuut there's just something there that feels like "even though I am not into this I understand why it is a special game".
Same with The Last of Us and God of War.

I'm about to fire up Blasphemous on my Switch this evening and I am looking forward to it immensely. That's my kind of game but it's cool if it's not for everyone. Then I am probably going to go through a couple of matches on PES2020. Again, not a big deal to me if you hate football games.

In some ways it does feel like a very convoluted "console wars" article especially with the way it talks about Gears 5 at the end. Like it's the Jesus of AAA or something.

"Games can be better than this."

Maybe, but not every game is going to be top tier. It's an unrealistic expectation.

Anyone who is really into the hobby is going to understand that you have to take the rough with the smooth.
Most times you are playing "OK" to "enjoyable" games and that's OK because you like videogames well enough to enjoy most.

It's not really fair to look at every game that isn't 10 out of 10, life changing, special and proclaim that "games can do better".
Yes, some game just "go through the motions" and maybe they are built on small budgets or by inexperienced or even just tired teams.
That's allowed though and there is an audience for such things.
 
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Thabass

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Here's the thing. Why are we acting as if Sony's 1st party games don't have great gameplay? Just last year they released God of War and Spiderman. Those are some of the most fun I've had this whole generation "gameplay" wise.
I don't want you to misunderstand me, I love Sony's first party offerings. I think they're a damn fun experience. But that doesn't mean they aren't prestige games either. They are more simplified in their control scheme, sure. But they're not bad games. I think Buford is being far more pretentious than he's leading on. But, Sony games do have an certain aspect to them that do make them seem like they're more style than substance.

I think God of War and more specifically Spider Man were their two best offerings they've had in a while and dare say that these games were better than The Last of Us.
 

Virex

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I don’t like Naughty Dog games, on the whole, because they’re super emo and control like ass.

Really enjoyed Spider-Man and Horizon.

People overthink this.
Naughty Dog is probably one of the most overrated devs out there. And the fact that a lot of developers try to be like Naughty Dog is even worse. The Uncharted games are decent. But I found The Last Of Us to be one of the most overrated games ever made. Not a bad game at all. But not all that great
 

Saruhashi

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Here's the thing. Why are we acting as if Sony's 1st party games don't have great gameplay? Just last year they released God of War and Spiderman. Those are some of the most fun I've had this whole generation "gameplay" wise.
Exactly.

In my opinion you can tell from the very first glimpse at those games that they will combine good story, good gameplay and cutting edge graphics etc straight off the bat.

As some one else said, it's just overthinking for the sake of overthinking.

You can take the briefest of brief looks at those games and, if you know games, you just KNOW exactly what you are in for and that it will be top quality.

OK, maybe not life changing. Maybe you won't be bawling your eyes out as your life changes forever but still you know what you are getting and you know it will be good across all the key aspects.

I think even the kind of rough shooting and combat mechanics in Uncharted are still actually fun to play.
 

Bryank75

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I don't want you to misunderstand me, I love Sony's first party offerings. I think they're a damn fun experience. But that doesn't mean they aren't prestige games either. They are more simplified in their control scheme, sure. But they're not bad games. I think Buford is being far more pretentious than he's leading on. But, Sony games do have an certain aspect to them that do make them seem like they're more style than substance.

I think God of War and more specifically Spider Man were their two best offerings they've had in a while and dare say that these games were better than The Last of Us.
While I don’t agree with the style over substance, I agree with Spider-Man and GOW being better (in my humble opinion) than tlou.

Each studio in Sony world wide studios runs quite like an indie developer. They focus on culture a lot.... you see media molecule making Dreams and other games that are more arty as well as Pixelopus making Concrete Genie.

They do try different things and it’s not all about big budget blockbusters. But some studios also want to try their hand at a blockbuster.

Horizon would never have been allowed to happen without that creativity and risk taking that usually only exists in the indie scene.

So I think some of these Sony games are hugely undervalued.
 

mckmas8808

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I don't want you to misunderstand me, I love Sony's first party offerings. I think they're a damn fun experience. But that doesn't mean they aren't prestige games either. They are more simplified in their control scheme, sure. But they're not bad games. I think Buford is being far more pretentious than he's leading on. But, Sony games do have an certain aspect to them that do make them seem like they're more style than substance.

I think God of War and more specifically Spider Man were their two best offerings they've had in a while and dare say that these games were better than The Last of Us.
I think what you are noticing with the bolded is Sony's attempt to add an extra layer of "movie-like" presentation to their game's stories. From the facial animation to the overall graphics. RDR2 has this exact same feel, but it seems unfair (like you are eluding to) to view this as a negative.

Some people just want games to "feel" like games. Whereas Sony has some devs that want to take the medium up another level. You can see this oozing in all The Last of Us 2 trailers that they've released.
 

synchronicity

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I just like variety. It's nice to sample from various genres and eras and mix things up to keep gaming fresh. There's plenty to love across the spectrum of gaming for me. Everything has its own strengths to enjoy.
 

Jigsaah

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Uncharted is awesome. But theres definitely times when it gives you fake gameplay. Thats insultingly simple 'puzzles' a baby could solve, or long walking/platform sections with no challenge
i'll be honest, while I liked the skiff in Gears 5 at first...it got old real fast.
 

Azelover

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I'd watch a movie by Naughty Dog any day. But their games lately have been quite boring. I can't even rationalize why. It's a bunch of little things really.

I know a lot of people do, but I don't have the intention of owning a modern videogame system to watch excellent movies. They have their value, but it's not what I'm looking for.
 

mckmas8808

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I'd watch a movie by Naughty Dog any day. But their games lately have been quite boring. I can't even rationalize why. It's a bunch of little things really.

I know a lot of people do, but I don't have the intention of owning a modern videogame system to watch excellent movies. They have their value, but it's not what I'm looking for.

So we still doing this?

 

Trilobit

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The writer should have trimmed the fat on the article. Got through the first half, but he gets constantly sidetracked by his own thoughts, so had to call it quits.
 
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Miku Miku

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That article needs an aggressive editor. But I have hated almost all these games too. The only Naughty Dog game I could even force myself to compete was Uncharted 4. Never played it again. I've had the sequel on my HDD for a year and never touched it.

It's just boring gameplay. Naughty Dog has basically just made the same game over and over since Crash. The same TPS. It's always top focused on pseudo realism to ever add any kind of outlandish new gameplay. The grappling hook is the only reason I was able to stay interested in U4 until the end.

I have no hype for TLoU2 at the moment. Could hardly stand the 1st one. One of the only games in my life I sold after a week of trying to get into it.
 

Tygeezy

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Uncharted is awesome. But theres definitely times when it gives you fake gameplay. Thats insultingly simple 'puzzles' a baby could solve, or long walking/platform sections with no challenge
And none of there mainline games have gyro support making some action sequences much more difficulty and less fun for me because I don't use auto aim.
 
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GymWolf

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Jun 11, 2019
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i don't like their stories or pg too much, i enjoyed tlou for the visceral combat, and uncharted series for the spectacle and set pieces, unchy4 has good gunplay but the pacing is horrible so i globally hated that game.

my hype for tlou2 is only for their spectacular animation system and realistic combat, i onestly don't give a fuck about the characters, i'm just sad that i have to control the sassy lesbo bitch and not the fucking killing machine that was joel.

i enjoyed crash saga and the first jak and dexter very much tho.