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“i don’t think i like prestige games” - Burford

Cravis

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I didn’t care for TLoU. Finally trudged my way through it when it was remastered for PS4 but my opinion is just like this dudes. No better or worse or more important so take that as you will.

The problem is a segment of people have taken this game and now have put it up on their shelf next to their statue of Jesus, Allah, or Elvis or whatever they value most in their lives. You don’t dare criticize it. You never speak a bad word about it and you don’t ever, EVER, question any facet of Naughty Dog’s creation. They need to step back and realize, it’s just a game. It’s ok. Not everyone is going to like it.

Pssssssttttttt don’t tell them about Way of the Warrior. SJW would have a field day with its stereotypes.
 

Tygeezy

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I didn’t care for TLoU. Finally trudged my way through it when it was remastered for PS4 but my opinion is just like this dudes. No better or worse or more important so take that as you will.

The problem is a segment of people have taken this game and now have put it up on their shelf next to their statue of Jesus, Allah, or Elvis or whatever they value most in their lives. You don’t dare criticize it. You never speak a bad word about it and you don’t ever, EVER, question any facet of Naughty Dog’s creation. They need to step back and realize, it’s just a game. It’s ok. Not everyone is going to like it.

Pssssssttttttt don’t tell them about Way of the Warrior. SJW would have a field day with its stereotypes.
I was playing ti on my ps4 when it died. I think I might have been halfway through the game, and I havent been compelled to get my ps4 fixed to finish it.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Sony got a bit too cinematic for my tastes this gen. In spite of beating every previous Uncharted game (some of them several times, and yes even the Vita one), I gave up on Uncharted 4 after a few hours. I skipped The Lost Legacy because it looked like more of the same. God of War looked okay but I'm not a massive fan of the series anyway so I skipped it. Last of Us 2 looks okay and I beat the previous one multiple times including the hardest difficulty (my favorite way to play it).

It's nothing against Sony or their audience. Personally, I do think they've pushed the AAA cinematic "let's make games like a movie" stuff too far, and in that sense I can agree with the author of the article. I see where they're coming form.

But I'll just point back to what I said in my first sentence: "Sony got a bit too cinematic for my tastes". It's an opinion, and it has very little to do with Sony hitting or missing a mark. They're making a type of game that I don't have as much interest in anymore, but there's quite obviously a huge audience for it. As far as cinematic blockbuster releases, Sony is a force to be reckoned with and this generation is no exception. The author seems like they've uncovered some glossed-over flaw of Sony titles that everyone else is oblivious to. A game like Days Gone should really hammer this point home: critics panned it and a lot of Sony fans panned it, yet it sold incredibly well. A lot of people seem to love it. The game must have some positive quality to it for it to sell so well. It's not like it got a huge advertising campaign. It's not like the zombie or open-world markets are underserved right now.
 

Tygeezy

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Sony got a bit too cinematic for my tastes this gen. In spite of beating every previous Uncharted game (some of them several times, and yes even the Vita one), I gave up on Uncharted 4 after a few hours. I skipped The Lost Legacy because it looked like more of the same. God of War looked okay but I'm not a massive fan of the series anyway so I skipped it. Last of Us 2 looks okay and I beat the previous one multiple times including the hardest difficulty (my favorite way to play it).

It's nothing against Sony or their audience. Personally, I do think they've pushed the AAA cinematic "let's make games like a movie" stuff too far, and in that sense I can agree with the author of the article. I see where they're coming form.

But I'll just point back to what I said in my first sentence: "Sony got a bit too cinematic for my tastes". It's an opinion, and it has very little to do with Sony hitting or missing a mark. They're making a type of game that I don't have as much interest in anymore, but there's quite obviously a huge audience for it. As far as cinematic blockbuster releases, Sony is a force to be reckoned with and this generation is no exception. The author seems like they've uncovered some glossed-over flaw of Sony titles that everyone else is oblivious to. A game like Days Gone should really hammer this point home: critics panned it and a lot of Sony fans panned it, yet it sold incredibly well. A lot of people seem to love it. The game must have some positive quality to it for it to sell so well. It's not like it got a huge advertising campaign. It's not like the zombie or open-world markets are underserved right now.
It's got the Gyroscope, sony take note!
 
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The Alien

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It's hilarious and ironic to read articles like this, especially now that gears 5 has just released.

All of these "criticisms" are ok when it's a Sony game but they don't apply to a game like Gears because...?
1) Dont listen to everyone who writes something on the internet.

2) Im not the biggest ND guy, but I'm going against the Gaf-grain here....I f*ing love TLOU. Awesome story, great pacing and varied gameply.

3) Gears has had its share of criticisms too ("bro shooter")....but the series has always been super solid on gameplay (which seems to be people's beef with this article).
 

Northeastmonk

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Nobody skips cutscenes? That's what I do. Only pay attention when you really want to, same with reading text. I absolutely love Sony's lineup this gen. Regardless of that, I just skip whatever is excessive. You know what I did when I had to do something while playing Kingdom Hearts 3? I skipped whatever cutscene just so it would save. I'd just pick up from wherever it left off. I'll be honest and say I wasn't exactly impressed by MS's lineup this gen, but they've had some really good stuff. Even with MS and Nintendo.. press that button during the cut scene. It'll help you out in the long run.

There's criticisms in each corner, but most of the game(s) I loved this gen were Sony and to be honest, not all of them had you sit through an hour long cut scene. Try playing God of War on NG+, skip all the cutscenes, and what? There's really not that much to complain about.
 

Tygeezy

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He must have double hated The Prestige since it was directed by the second most hated entity in this article Christopher Nolan.
 

Jigsaah

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So we still doing this?

LOL. This kinda makes me wanna play through this again. I definitely was way more careful than this. Then again I'm kind of a hoarder in these kinda games. I need ALL THE AMMO, every bandage and would prefer to wear a suit of tin can and nail grenades.

Maybe people find the game boring because of the way Naughty Dog developed the encounters. They promote stealth and an atmosphere of danger. This guy looks like Rambo's drunk uncle who had the unfortunate episode of Ellie dropping some aphrodisiac into his favorite mason jar of moonshine.
 

Ballthyrm

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To me all these talk are about people shouting over each other over which is the best food.

Some people eat a fluffy cake dessert and say this the best thing they've ever eaten and then make sure, they only eat this at every part of the meal. All they get is the equivalent of video games diabetes.

If you look online all i see is a list of unhelpful Yelp reviews about how rude the waiter was at a Mc Donald.

Be a good lad/lass , eat your vegetable and try getting a good diet of video-games.
Eat Polish , Japanese, French, American, you'll never get bored.
 
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thelastword

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Well then...

I eagerly await a medium article from thelastword thelastword to tell us how wrong Doc Seuss is.
I don't have to tell you how wrong Doc Seuss is, you know it for yourself...…..Just watch the guys last few posts and threads on Neogaf and Era...…..A very self important "my opinion on games is better than yours" type spieler....To Doc, everyone is a loon for enjoying UC, yet he will write up a detailed breakdown on Superman 64 as a game persons just misunderstood and could not grasp because of their lowly form and deficient mental capacities.....


Cheers....
 

FMXVII

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WTF is this player agency BS, I played ND games and I had player agency just fine. They are GAMES. Some more heavy in cutscenes than others, but they are PLAYED throughout and present challenge.
My player agency involves not playing games that don't play to my player agency.

I'm funny like that.
 
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Darknessbear

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This guy is such a smarmy ass-hat it's insane, reading his comments on the other forum are mind boggling. These kind of people annoy the shit out of me, go write for games then if you are some saving grace to gaming...

But he'd realize it's not as easy as, "HERE'S A GOOD SCRIPT". Game development is so many moving parts that just it coming together is exceptional and a game like Last of Us that actually tells a compelling story was revolutionary for its time.

It's laughable that someone could think themselves an intelectual when they say: Last of Us, God of War, Spider-man is garbage and then go, "Crackdown 3, Gears 5 and Days Gone are works of art". You are being pretentious to be pretentious.
 
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HE1NZ

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I think I get the gist of what he's talking about, but his examples are all over the place. Bioshock Infinite is a super pretentious game. Uncharted 2 hardly so.
 

joe_zazen

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Lol, no. Don't own any xbox anything—never played any of MS’ franchises either.

I am probably just coming to terms with the fact that I am no longer a playstation fan and should just bite the bullet and buy a switch and update my 2010 PC hardware. It is just a little sad when you move on from something that was a big part of your life. First PS game was valkyria chronicles, second was demon souls...good times.
 

zenspider

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I think what you are noticing with the bolded is Sony's attempt to add an extra layer of "movie-like" presentation to their game's stories. From the facial animation to the overall graphics. RDR2 has this exact same feel, but it seems unfair (like you are eluding to) to view this as a negative.

Some people just want games to "feel" like games. Whereas Sony has some devs that want to take the medium up another level. You can see this oozing in all The Last of Us 2 trailers that they've released.
I understand what you're saying here but the "another level" implies that the double-down on the cinematic approach is somehow a progression for the medium.

I think it's a valid view that - in terms of posterity - what the author is calling prestige games are a few paces ahead of the trajectory of cheesy FMV games. This is a popular genre now, but this is not representative of the medium at it's most potent, at least not compared to game-ass games that are transcendent without being a transposed mainstream film or tv show. In that sense, Tetris is on a much "a higher level" than TLOU.
 

mckmas8808

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I understand what you're saying here but the "another level" implies that the double-down on the cinematic approach is somehow a progression for the medium.

I think it's a valid view that - in terms of posterity - what the author is calling prestige games are a few paces ahead of the trajectory of cheesy FMV games. This is a popular genre now, but this is not representative of the medium at it's most potent, at least not compared to game-ass games that are transcendent without being a transposed mainstream film or tv show. In that sense, Tetris is on a much "a higher level" than TLOU.
It "is" a progression of the medium for "SOME" games. The great thing about video games is that they can be varied in style, gameplay, frame per second, etc. So with that said, it's not possible to say Tetris is a higher-level game than TLOU, because videogames can be many things. There's no "right" way to make them.

What makes TLOU so much less of a "game" than Resident Evil 4? Back then nobody questioned how much of a game RE4 was. We all accepted that it was a game. And most of us agreed that it was a great game. I'm confused as to why Naughty Dog games (damn near every game they've released since 2007) has been brought into question as if they are just movies and not games.

I can't help but feel that system wars has something to do with this.
 
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Digity

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It "is" a progression of the medium for "SOME" games. The great thing about video games is that they can be varied in style, gameplay, frame per second, etc. So with that said, it's not possible to say Tetris is a higher-level game than TLOU, because videogames can be many things. There's no "right" way to make them.

What makes TLOU so much less of a "game" than Resident Evil 4? Back then nobody questioned how much of a game RE4 was. We all accepted that it was a game. And most of us agreed that it was a great game. I'm confused as to why Naughty Dog games (damn near every game they've released since 2007) has been brought into question as if they are just movies and not games.

I can't help but feel that system wars has something to do with this.
Of course it does. People calling Naughty Dog games or Sony games for that matter "movie games" or "walking simulators" are complete dolts. Yes the games contain many cutscenes but that doesn't lower the number of actual good gameplay sections there are in their games.
 
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zenspider

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It "is" a progression of the medium for "SOME" games. The great thing about video games is that they can be varied in style, gameplay, frame per second, etc. So with that said, it's not possible to say Tetris is a higher-level game than TLOU, because videogames can be many things. There's no "right" way to make them.

What makes TLOU so much less of a "game" than Resident Evil 4? Back then nobody questioned how much of a game RE4 was. We all accepted that it was a game. And most of us agreed that it was a great game. I'm confused as to why Naughty Dog games (damn near every game they've released since 2007) has been brought into question as if they are just movies and not games.

I can't help but feel that system wars has something to do with this.
Fair point, and maybe we should be making better categories for gaming.

I don't know about Resident Evil/TLOU... I'll think about it and see if I come up with anything. I had an appreciated all platforms at both times, so I don't feel "system warz" biased, and I was very hyped to play both. I do think you're onto something in that TLOU has a kind of meta-criticism because of what it is, represents, and means for gaming levied against it that RE4 didn't for whatever reason.
 
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joe_zazen

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It "is" a progression of the medium for "SOME" games. The great thing about video games is that they can be varied in style, gameplay, frame per second, etc. So with that said, it's not possible to say Tetris is a higher-level game than TLOU, because videogames can be many things. There's no "right" way to make them.

What makes TLOU so much less of a "game" than Resident Evil 4? Back then nobody questioned how much of a game RE4 was. We all accepted that it was a game. And most of us agreed that it was a great game. I'm confused as to why Naughty Dog games (damn near every game they've released since 2007) has been brought into question as if they are just movies and not games.

I can't help but feel that system wars has something to do with this.
Depends how you define ‘game’. Videogame nerds generally hate this topic because they don't want to do the work of defining words in a technical sense and have trouble understanding the history of human games and play before the advent of videogames. Lots of research has been done in this area.

The industry calls itself ‘interactive/entertainment software’ because they understand that that ‘game’ has a specific meaning & that some of their products aren’t games and don’t have gameplay.

So if you are looking at games and gameplay in an anthropological or academic sense, you need to understand what the terms actually mean, then you can start evaluating and dissecting them. But if you are using ‘games’ as a catch all that includes everything from choose-your-own-adventure to pong to irl chess to irl baseball to anything-else-you-want-to-chuck-in-this-bin, then there isn't much to discuss because ‘game’ is whatever you say it is, and that is no basis for discussion,
 
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mckmas8808

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Depends how you define ‘game’. Videogame nerds generally hate this topic because they don't want to do the work of defining words in a technical sense and have trouble understanding the history of human games and play before the advent of videogames. Lots of research has been done in this area.

The industry calls itself ‘interactive/entertainment software’ because they understand that that ‘game’ has a specific meaning & that some of their products aren’t games and don’t have gameplay.

So if you are looking at games and gameplay in an anthropological or academic sense, you need to understand what the terms actually mean, then you can start evaluating and dissecting them. But if you are using ‘games’ as a catch all that includes everything from choose-your-own-adventure to pong to irl chess to irl baseball to anything-else-you-want-to-chuck-in-this-bin, then there isn't much to discuss because ‘game’ is whatever you say it is, and that is no basis for discussion,

Yes, but we agree that both Tetris and The Last of Us are both video games right? Like in the most casual way of speaking and academically speaking.
 

joe_zazen

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Yes, but we agree that both Tetris and The Last of Us are both video games right? Like in the most casual way of speaking and academically speaking.
Of course. I do wish ‘game’ wasn’t in the name though, it muddies things.
 
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zenspider

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mckmas8808 mckmas8808 joe_zazen joe_zazen

This is good though. I feel like there have been tons of threads that circle this that fizzle out for one reason or another - the arguments get heated because of preferences and other biases.

Where do we start? What would be the definiton of a game in an anthropological context that we can apply to video games, and what can we begin to call what's outside of that that isn't inflammatory or dismissive?
 
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SteelAttack

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Even having liked TLoU and Uncharted 2 a lot, and even if he comes across as a cunt, I found myself understanding plenty of the reasoning behind his criticism. I only wish he didn't have to go and ejaculate all over Control and Gears 5 in the end in such a blatant way because I don't think that takes anything away from what he had written up to that point.
 

Rhazer Fusion

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In my own world.
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Some time ago, a friend of mine told me that he did not like big, Western video games. I asked him why, and he explained that the Western games were soulless husks that only existed to make money and Japanese games were pure achievements of artistic merit.
Don’t want to derail the thread. I play and enjoy all types of games, but this paragraph stuck out to me because I basically have the same sentiments when it comes to Western games and Japanese games. A lot of big budget Western games to me feel like they come off an assembly line just to make money ASAP while I think most Japanese games have more heart, creativity, art, passion and soul put into them. Of course there are exceptions though. I doubt we will ever see creators or visionaries with the passion and imagination of Miyamoto, Yu Suzuki, Hideo Kojima, Yuji Naka, Hideki Kamiya or Shinji Mikami to name a few ever again.
 
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mckmas8808

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mckmas8808 mckmas8808 joe_zazen joe_zazen

This is good though. I feel like there have been tons of threads that circle this that fizzle out for one reason or another - the arguments get heated because of preferences and other biases.

Where do we start? What would be the definiton of a game in an anthropological context that we can apply to video games, and what can we begin to call what's outside of that that isn't inflammatory or dismissive?
That's not up for us to create, but to me if it's on or from a "screen" of some sort (VR and AR included) and you can interact with it, it's a videogame. But of course that won't tell you much, so that's when someone would have to give you the game genre of said game you are playing.

Even having liked TLoU and Uncharted 2 a lot, and even if he comes across as a cunt, I found myself understanding plenty of the reasoning behind his criticism. I only wish he didn't have to go and ejaculate all over Control and Gears 5 in the end in such a blatant way because I don't think that takes anything away from what he had written up to that point.
How can he criticize ND games, but praise Control and Gears 5?
 
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zenspider

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That's not up for us to create, but to me if it's on or from a "screen" of some sort (VR and AR included) and you can interact with it, it's a videogame. But of course that won't tell you much, so that's when someone would have to give you the game genre of said game you are playing.
Why not? If not us, it's the marketing departments.

A screen and levels of interaction are a place to start.

For me, I'd define games as things you can win, as opposed to simply experience.

I also think "win-iness" can be put on a spectrum, with completing a passive experience being on one end, ramping in - and possibly categorized by - various metrics of skill, luck, perseverance, etc. to the other end, until you get to games that can only be gotten better at but never "beat" or "solved".

Another overlay would be the competitve nature - whom do you win against? Player vs Player, Player vs. Self, Player vs. Machine, and I think I would add Player vs. Creator, this being the way into this structure for games like Gone Home, Everything, etc. Personally I generally story as scaffolding, but also know that it can be the most rewarding part of a game. I think this is a fair way to include it.

I
 

mckmas8808

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Why not? If not us, it's the marketing departments.

A screen and levels of interaction are a place to start.

For me, I'd define games as things you can win, as opposed to simply experience.

I also think "win-iness" can be put on a spectrum, with completing a passive experience being on one end, ramping in - and possibly categorized by - various metrics of skill, luck, perseverance, etc. to the other end, until you get to games that can only be gotten better at but never "beat" or "solved".

Another overlay would be the competitve nature - whom do you win against? Player vs Player, Player vs. Self, Player vs. Machine, and I think I would add Player vs. Creator, this being the way into this structure for games like Gone Home, Everything, etc. Personally I generally story as scaffolding, but also know that it can be the most rewarding part of a game. I think this is a fair way to include it.

I
I think all of that is fair and makes sense.
 

Three

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How can he criticize ND games, but praise Control and Gears 5?
He became an avid remedy fan, especially since Alan wake. I'm sure I don't need to tell you why.

I would always found it completely telling how he would praise that game yet shit on every other similar gameplay Sony game.

For reference here are the first two parts of Alan Wake:


And I don't mean that as an insult to Alan wake but he could never truly explain why this was the pinnacle of third person shooter gameplay for him, it just was, while Uncharted 2 was trash. I'm not at all surprised that he thinks the new God of War was ‘beer that was made out of piss.' and Gears5 the first truly AAA game.
 
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Arachnid

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I think I get the gist of what he's talking about, but his examples are all over the place. Bioshock Infinite is a super pretentious game. Uncharted 2 hardly so.
I was thinking the same. There's a lot in there I agree with. and he makes some solid points. There's a lot I don't agree with too. He has a lot of opinions that he frames as fact (which I guess you have to when you're trying to argue a point, though it's kind of annoying).

His point on Uncharted 2, I definitely disagree with (U2 was an improvement on 1 in every way IMO, and it deserved its praise).I think Last of Us has a great, if simple story, but I also think the gameplay loop is super basic and tedious. Bioshock Infinite, I definitely agree on. Bioshock 1, I definitely disagree on (his comparison to Old Yeller in no way devalues the fantastic twist IMO). I also agree with Gears, though not to the degree he does (it's a damn good game, but it definitely didn't make me feel like I was experiencing AAA games for the first time).

But whatever. It's his blog.
 

DeepEnigma

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He became an avid remedy fan, especially since Alan wake. I'm sure I don't need to tell you why.

I would always found it completely telling how he would praise that game yet shit on every other similar gameplay Sony game.

For reference here are the first two parts of Alan Wake:


And I don't mean that as an insult to Alan wake but he could never truly explain why this was the pinnacle of third person shooter gameplay for him, it just was, while Uncharted 2 was trash. I'm not at all surprised that he thinks the new God of War was ‘beer that was made out of piss.' and Gears5 the first truly AAA game.
So he’s the Mr.MediaX of games instead of hardware.

Got it.
 
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Negotiator

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Look, shit gameplay and no gameplay.
ND game "critics" exhibit the following characteristics:

1) They always play on Easy/Normal (zero challenge).


2) They never touch the MP (where the gameplay is more deep and challenging than even the highest SP difficulty, especially in PvP where the "human AI" is totally unpredictable).

Prove me wrong.
 

DeepEnigma

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ND game "critics" exhibit the following characteristics:

1) They always play on Easy/Normal (zero challenge).


2) They never touch the MP (where the gameplay is more deep and challenging than even the highest SP difficulty, especially in PvP where the "human AI" is totally unpredictable).

Prove me wrong.
3) They never play the game at all.

Seen several admit to it here, while still having such passionate negative opinions speaking like it were first hand experience.
 
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Negotiator

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Correct. Kojima envisioned the video games/cinema fusion back in 1998.

Hell, he even predicted the rise of social media/safe spaces back in 2001 (MGS2).

People give shit to ND for having 2-5min cutscenes, but MGS4 cutscenes are a whole other ballgame:

 

Justin9mm

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Haven't read the article but I don't mind these games... sometimes. If I'm in the mood for it, they're honestly great. You can chill out and play, not get lost too lost in the details, a lot like a decent TV show on Netflix. The biggest issue I personally have is that there's too many. I have no motivation to play more than one every couple of years.

The debate also has its roots in film criticism. A critic called Manny Farber wrote about the excesses of blockbuster films calling them bloated and lacking a strong central subject. He dubbed them 'white elephants' and advocated instead for 'termite art' - smaller, more imperfect films that do a lot well but don't rock the world.

P.s. I assume we're talking about Sony's usual bill of third-person story-driven action games.
I never understood the too many of the same type of game/genre argument. You have a choice not to play them. It makes no sense to me.
 

Justin9mm

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I didn’t care for TLoU. Finally trudged my way through it when it was remastered for PS4 but my opinion is just like this dudes. No better or worse or more important so take that as you will.

The problem is a segment of people have taken this game and now have put it up on their shelf next to their statue of Jesus, Allah, or Elvis or whatever they value most in their lives. You don’t dare criticize it. You never speak a bad word about it and you don’t ever, EVER, question any facet of Naughty Dog’s creation. They need to step back and realize, it’s just a game. It’s ok. Not everyone is going to like it.

Pssssssttttttt don’t tell them about Way of the Warrior. SJW would have a field day with its stereotypes.
What you fail to understand is that it was great in the moment of release compared to other games in that current period of time. There have been so many newer games released after that which have evolved, of course you don't see the appeal because it does not hold up higher to your other experiences. Given the comparison of other games at the time of the release on PS3, it was graphically and artistically considered a masterpiece. People forget this is a PS3 game. Everyone I've ever known to say they don't see the appeal or complain about it is when they played it much later on in it's life on PS4.

Is it the greatest game ever made, no! But go back in time to when it was released on PS3 and you will be hard pressed to find a game like it that was as good or better.