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Analysis 12.15 - 10.28= 1.87 Teraflops difference between the XSX and PS5 (52 CU's vs. 36 CU's)

Filippos

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XSX clocks are LOCKED, meaning there is a ton of headroom available if needed. You cant flat lock clocks without massive headroom.
yeah. Imagine MS would boost them like Sony did with PS5. How many TF would that be? Freaking crazy.
But this also will mean that the series X will be super quiet. And PS5 a jet engine.
 
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MiyazakiHatesKojima

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Dont do this to yourself MiyazakiHatesKojima MiyazakiHatesKojima
Give yourself some time to process the news and think with a colder mind.
It's food for thought.

When you do the math, the CUs in the XSX is less efficient and more excessive.

It will definitely drive up the cost of the product and end up becoming another Xbox One X situation where the market shuns it as too expensive despite it being the superior console, technically speaking.
 

Jonsoncao

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Talking about efficiency, I recommend OP to check the result on 5700XT, which is a card that is almost the same spec with PS5 GPU, 40CU(most likely PS5 GPU has 40CU with 4 disabled for yield ), memory bandwidth, except being RDNA1.


The power drawn and heat dissipation is not linear with respect to the frequency in the high frequency regime.
 
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siekro1983

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Lol, it's not enough that they have a 12.1 vs 10.3 scenerio, Xbox fans have to spread even more FUD. Are you guys still that worried about the PS5? Cerny said that the system will be running constantly in Boost Mode, due in large part to their cooling system being able to handle that kind of heat. 10.3 Tflops isn't just a rare occurence. That is what it will run at the vast majority of the time. And it will only downclock slightly if the CPU is demanding more.
yes it will mostly run at 10.3 because most games don't push the envelope. he did say when a game pushes the system it will have to be down clocked.
 

SenjutsuSage

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It's a pointless argument, but the gap is obviously more than that. It isn't going to be maintaining or staying at that clock speed, or else there wouldn't be much need to clarify that it's variable and it'll drop sometimes. It clearly drops enough to be worthy of mention. Sony didn't want people to see them lower than double digits, but it's pretty clear this is a 9TF console that Sony wanted to avoid having to show at all costs. There's a reason we get the peak numbers and not the base figures.
 

MiyazakiHatesKojima

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It's a pointless argument, but the gap is obviously more than that. It isn't going to be maintaining or staying at that clock speed, or else there wouldn't be much need to clarify that it's variable and it'll drop sometimes. It clearly drops enough to be worthy of mention. Sony didn't want people to see them lower than double digits, but it's pretty clear this is a 9TF console that Sony wanted to avoid having to show at all costs. There's a reason we get the peak numbers and not the base figures.
This is just speculation and until it's proven with facts, then it should be treated as FUD.
 

Roxkis_ii

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Shocking, it's not as if we haven't had PC hardware for the last 40 years to figure out thermal workloads and the resulting outcropping from them.

There's a reason Microsoft went with more typical clockspeeds and more CU's.
You know there is a video of the lead systems architect explaining how they dealt with this issue?


The video is on YouTube called Road to ps5. You can find the info about their cooling solution at the 34:34 mark.
 
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Jigsaah

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Damage Control - The Thread.

Ironically, I think 10 TF is enough. It's not like it won't be able to do 4k 60 especially on it's own exclusives where the studios have intimate knowledge of the hardware. So basically what we're talking here is either how PS5 stacks up to PC or how it stacks up to the Series X in third party multiplats.

I flipped out about Jim Ryan when he said developers would choose the route of parity when considering the Pro vs. X with a 30-40% difference in power. He was wrong then. With a difference in less than 2 TF I think that claim would be much more plausible today.
 

MaulerX

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Concern? Isn't everyone saying psv splurged on a great cooling system? Hellooo thts why thy opted for a good cooling system so it does t have those issues 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

Concern because the added expense of a more sophisticated cooling solution to cool that thing means that we might actually see a scenario where the PS5 costs just as much as the Series X while being less powerful.

This scenario is very real.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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LMAO saying something is speculation is not being in denial.
No, it's very clearly a 9.X Teraflop console that can intermittently boost in intense times of stress to negate performance loss.

This is all very ham handed, and really seems like a PR move more than anything because the system was no doubt a fixed 9.2 Teraflops but if they didn't get to that double digit figure for their PR they would have been eaten alive.

It's a 9.X teraflop GPU which can boost up to 10.28 teraflops, that's a fact.
 

Stuart360

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It's food for thought.

When you do the math, the CUs in the XSX is less efficient and more excessive.

It will definitely drive up the cost of the product and end up becoming another Xbox One X situation where the market shuns it as too expensive despite it being the superior console, technically speaking.
You know i like you, but you really have changed from your funny prankster self, into a real bitter fanboy over the last few weeks. You didnt used to be like that, or maybe i just took everything you said as sarcasm.
Its like it sounds like you havent even watched the reveal, watched the DF vid, really know that much about what you're talking about, and then you come out with bitter Gamespot style fanboy drivel.
 

SenjutsuSage

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This is just speculation and until it's proven with facts, then it should be treated as FUD.
Cerny confirmed the clock speed drops. We've seen this before. It's a boost clock. AMD's GPUs typically do not maintain those boost clocks and generally operate at more reasonable frequencies. On PC, for example, though Sony's use case appears slightly different, you have what's known as game clock and boost clocks. You don't have much further to go before you get below 10.3. You realize that if the clock drops by just 100MHz you're starting at 9.8? You can guarantee in more demanding games it likely does drop more than that.

So call it fud if you like, but you have to address that to cerny. He's the one who confirmed it does, in fact, drop the clock speeds. From there you're just left hoping it doesn't drop by at least 100MHz? Yea, I wouldn't bet on that. Either way. It's a done issue. Bring on the games. They'll tell the rest of the story.

edited to add something I left out about game clock and boost clock.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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Concern because the added expense of a more sophisticated cooling solution to cool that thing means that we might actually see a scenario where the PS5 costs just as much as the Series X while being less powerful.

This scenario is very real.
Not to mention the SSD cost which may in practical application provide very little appreciable difference.
 
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actually it's true, its a boost mode. he even said some games pushing the envelope will run at most likely single digits.
He literally did not say that at all. Did any of you spouting this actually watch the video? He said for that worst case game that pushes PS5 to the limits, it would be possibly for the PS5 to drop clock speed. A 10% drop in power would only result in about a 2% drop in clock speed which still puts the clock speed over 2Ghz and over 10TF. Too many people are misinterpreting what he said to try and fit the Github leak and it’s getting annoying.
 

MiyazakiHatesKojima

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You know i like you, but you really have changed from your funny prankster self, into a real bitter fanboy over the last few weeks. You didnt used to be like that, or maybe i just took everything you said as sarcasm.
Its like it sounds like you havent even watched the reveal, watched the DF vid, really know that much about what you're talking about, and then you come out with bitter Gamespot style fanboy drivel.
WHOA! Where did this come from!? How am I being bitter? It's a genuine question and not a troll attempt to stir shit up.

This is a discussion forum, correct? Don't switch up on people like that, not cool.
 

octiny

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The XSX didn't achieve 12 Teraflops efficiently since they needed 52 CUs to achieve a mere 1.87 Teraflops difference.

Again, this thread is to start a conversation about whether the XSX's 52 CU's was efficient or not to achieve that additional 1.87 Teraflops gain or not.
That's not efficiency. That's desperation to narrow the gap, and as some have said, Sony had to cough up extra dough to even cool it correctly which may bite them in the ass later on. Time will tell.

W/ obvious voltage, heat & wattage increase coming w/ clocking so high, it's one of the least efficient consoles to date. Not to mention, the binning process involved w/ less CU's. Similar to GPU's/CPUs of past, higher core count/cuda/CU count @ lower speeds (for same target performance)= less heat/power when compared to the opposite due to the binning process AMD/INTEL/NVIDIA has always used (less voltage for same performance, saved for the higher end cards/cpu's). Again, if we're talking apples to apples, 10tf to 10tf.
 
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Psykodad

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The bigger question is whether or not Series S is a thing.

People completely ignore the Series S rumors and I see a lot of gaffers, who were talking about the 2 Xbox version, not mentioning or addressing it right now.

But MS will have a problem if the S exists and this entire situation will change completely.

Do people still believe in the Series S?
 
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Mass Shift

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LMAO saying something is speculation is not being in denial.
We're past speculation at this point. I'll give Cerny his points though, it took quite awhile for me to digest all of that info. And I would highly recommend Red Tech's viewpoints as well. He think's Cerny's engineering choices were quite ingenious.

But we're past the speculative stage. We're in the "Either they will or they won't" zone. The potential is there, but is everyone going to optimize the same way? Of course not. First party's will show the way but you can only lead a horse to water.
 

MiyazakiHatesKojima

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W/ obvious voltage, heat & wattage increase coming w/ clocking so high, it's one of the least efficient consoles to date.
This is a complete fabrication since you're basing this on your own understanding of how PC architecture works. The PS5 is clearly different from a typical architecture since it's literally CUSTOM-BASED.
 

thismeinteil

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yes it will mostly run at 10.3 because most games don't push the envelope. he did say when a game pushes the system it will have to be down clocked.
He said in a worst case scenario. As in not very optimized. Hmm, we see that with every system already, so that won't be just a new thing for the PS5.

It's a pointless argument, but the gap is obviously more than that. It isn't going to be maintaining or staying at that clock speed, or else there wouldn't be much need to clarify that it's variable and it'll drop sometimes. It clearly drops enough to be worthy of mention. Sony didn't want people to see them lower than double digits, but it's pretty clear this is a 9TF console that Sony wanted to avoid having to show at all costs. There's a reason we get the peak numbers and not the base figures.
The variable part was to talk about how their cooling system worked. They are keeping it at a constant power draw and temperature. If the GPU requires more power, which means it will create more heat, the CPU will slightly downclock and vice versa. But, if the dev optimizes for that system, they will operate at peak clocks. In fact, he said they could go higher, but it started affecting the on chip logic worked when it was clocked that high. Did people even watch the vid?
 

MiyazakiHatesKojima

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Its not this, its just loads of stuff you have put lately. Its like all the speculation just made some people crack lately lol.
The last time I said stupid shit was the minecraft which was admittedly embarrasing and i got a big fucking warning for it.

After that, I've been as neutral as my contract allows me to be.
 

siekro1983

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He literally did not say that at all. Did any of you spouting this actually watch the video? He said for that worst case game that pushes PS5 to the limits, it would be possibly for the PS5 to drop clock speed. A 10% drop in power would only result in about a 2% drop in clock speed which still puts the clock speed over 2Ghz and over 10TF. Too many people are misinterpreting what he said to try and fit the Github leak and it’s getting annoying.
think about it? whats a worse case game? a game pushing the system and most AAA games will with ray tracing, and targeting 60fps, its more then enough to cripple the ps5 to down clock.
 
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He said in a worst case scenario. As in not very optimized. Hmm, we see that with every system already, so that won't be just a new thing for the PS5.



The variable part was to talk about how their cooling system worked. They are keeping it at a constant power draw and temperature. If the GPU requires more power, which means it will create more heat, the CPU will slightly downclock and vice versa. But, if the dev optimizes for that system, they will operate at peak clocks. In fact, he said they could go higher, but it started affecting the on chip logic worked when it was clocked that high. Did people even watch the vid?
Of course they didn’t. If they did, they wouldn’t be asking these dumbass questions in bad faith. Cerny literally said PS5 will run at 2.23Ghz “a majority of the time” and will only downclock with that worst case scenario. Sounds pretty cut and dry to me.
 

Clear

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But hang on a minute... Still there's the reports of the PS5 devkit outperforming the Xbox equivalent, the timing of which lines up with the Github leak now proven mostly correct.

So unless you want to summarily disregard that feedback, in fact all the very positive rumblings from the dev community, I don't think it'd be wise to write off Cerny and co's approach just yet.

The proof of the pudding is going to be the games, and the overall system performance versus the asking price of the hardware.
 

OSC

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Most likely cost. They cheaped out on the Pro and did the same with the Ps5. People said X was more powerful cuz they had an extra year but now ms announced first and still weaker.
We need to see if the prices are the same.
actually it's true, its a boost mode. he even said some games pushing the envelope will run at most likely single digits.
No he said in some cases lower clock may be possible and gave example of a few percent drop in frequency lowering power by 10%
Cerny confirmed the clock speed drops
Cerny seemed to suggest that certain workload, using power hungry instructions for example could cause slower clocks.
 

SenjutsuSage

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He literally did not say that at all. Did any of you spouting this actually watch the video? He said for that worst case game that pushes PS5 to the limits, it would be possibly for the PS5 to drop clock speed. A 10% drop in power would only result in about a 2% drop in clock speed which still puts the clock speed over 2Ghz and over 10TF. Too many people are misinterpreting what he said to try and fit the Github leak and it’s getting annoying.
To fit the github leak? My guy, the github leak was 100%. You're staring at it. I mean, if it makes people feel better to see double digits, fine, but being realistic if the drops were as insignificant as you guys were hoping they were, Sony would have never told us about the variable clock in the first place. They told people because it's drop that makes a genuine difference no matter how small.
 
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siekro1983

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We need to see if the prices are the same.

No he said in some cases lower clock may be possible and gave example of a few percent drop in frequency lowering power by 10%

Cerny seemed to suggest that certain workload, using power hungry instructions for example could cause slower clocks.
yea 10% is 9.2 which is single digits.
 
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Jigsaah

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The bigger question is whether or not Series S is a thing.

People completely ignore the Series S rumors and I see a lot of gaffers, who were talking about the 2 Xbox version, not mentioning or addressing it right now.

But MS will have a problem if the S exists and this entire situation will change completely.

Do people still believe in the Series S?
I would say if Series S is in fact real and it comes in at $299 and more powerful than the X I'm sure a lot of people here would claim the S is what we should compare the PS5 to, specifically because there are rumors of an even more powerful PS5 pro coming down the line.
 

SenjutsuSage

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We need to see if the prices are the same.

No he said in some cases lower clock may be possible and gave example of a few percent drop in frequency lowering power by 10%

Cerny seemed to suggest that certain workload, using power hungry instructions for example could cause slower clocks.
Yea, it's pretty much a different way of saying when the GPU is working harder, just like when the GPU works harder on a PC and it drops for power and heat reasons. The difference is that, according to Sony, the GPU won't be dropping due to thermal reasons, but instead workload. In other words, Sony knows which kinds of workloads WOULD have caused the GPU to throttle and I believe throttle the GPU's clock speed accordingly. I mean, this even happens on the CPU side.