• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Analysis 12.15 - 10.28= 1.87 Teraflops difference between the XSX and PS5 (52 CU's vs. 36 CU's)

Stuart360

Member
Sep 9, 2018
4,615
9,088
530
The bigger question is whether or not Series S is a thing.

People completely ignore the Series S rumors and I see a lot of gaffers, who were talking about the 2 Xbox version, not mentioning or addressing it right now.

But MS will have a problem if the S exists and this entire situation will change completely.

Do people still believe in the Series S?
A problem?, a 1080p version of Series X that will probably be $299 or near, and as you lot always like to say, price is paramount.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CatLady

LMJ

Member
Feb 7, 2019
810
1,296
520
Stuart360 Stuart360 , I took it to mean that Sony didn't want to focus on ray tracing at this time, but rather the custom SSD and 3-D audio...

I'm sure in the future Sony will be more than happy to give a presentation on the actual ray tracing and what it can do especially its a custom chip ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: MiyazakiHatesKojima

MiyazakiHatesKojima

Gold Member
Jan 11, 2019
10,219
33,059
1,115
Tokyo, Japan
Did you watch the reveal?, if not then do. I'mtalking about what Cerny said himself, it was a weird thing to say imo for such a hyped feature of next gen.
You're taking a single sentence he said and speculating something that has severe implications on the potential power of the hardware.

I watched the panel and read the article. The way I see it, he's giving developers flexibility with the RT features.
 
Mar 4, 2020
422
1,529
335
To fit the github leak? My guy, the github leak was 100%. You're staring at it. I mean, if it makes people feel better to see double digits, fine, but being realistic if the drops were as insignificant as you guys were hoping they were, Sony would have never told us about the variable clock in the first place. They told people because it's drop that makes a genuine difference no matter how small.
lol My guy. Stop. You just said on this same page that basically Cerny and Sony are lying and that they are going to be running a majority of their games at 9TF. We have the lead architect just tell us from his mouth the PS5 will run a majority of the time at 2.23Ghz and only downclock when a truly console breaking game is put against it. You think he just made that shit up because he was worried about Xbox fanboys?

I mean, if it makes you feel better, then sure, Cerny is a big, fat liar and the PS5 is shit. At the same time, go and read up on AMD’s Smartshift technology that allows the RDNA2 to shift power back and forth between the CPU and GPU which allows the GPU to stay boosted to 2.23Ghz. Or you can always rewatch the entire section about the GPU so wewouldn’t have to have this conversation in the first place lol.
 

Roxkis_ii

Member
Nov 1, 2019
87
243
265
Pretty easy if they had a solution. Lock it then at that speed.

Nice alt account btw

They talked about their solution in the road to Ps5 video. You should watch it. Mark talked about this at 35:35.

I'm starting to think the people commenting here aren't doing so in Good faith with people bring up issue that aren't issue for the ps5
 

Pallas

Gold Member
May 9, 2018
2,799
3,303
595
Tennessee
The XSX didn't achieve 12 Teraflops efficiently since they needed 52 CUs to achieve a mere 1.87 Teraflops difference.

Again, this thread is to start a conversation about whether the XSX's 52 CU's was efficient or not to achieve that additional 1.87 Teraflops gain or not.
Wouldn’t more CU’s enabled provide for better ray tracing though?
 

Stuart360

Member
Sep 9, 2018
4,615
9,088
530
lol My guy. Stop. You just said on this same page that basically Cerny and Sony are lying and that they are going to be running a majority of their games at 9TF. We have the lead architect just tell us from his mouth the PS5 will run a majority of the time at 2.23Ghz and only downclock when a truly console breaking game is put against it. You think he just made that shit up because he was worried about Xbox fanboys?

I mean, if it makes you feel better, then sure, Cerny is a big, fat liar and the PS5 is shit. At the same time, go and read up on AMD’s Smartshift technology that allows the RDNA2 to shift power back and forth between the CPU and GPU which allows the GPU to stay boosted to 2.23Ghz. Or you can always rewatch the entire section about the GPU so wewouldn’t have to have this conversation in the first place lol.
When the console launches, and all the tech heads and tech sites start doing their tests, i wont be surprised if PS5 is operating around the 9.5tf mark with heavy graphical games, especially the longer you play.
 

siekro1983

Banned
Jan 31, 2020
867
777
305
He said in a worst case scenario. As in not very optimized. Hmm, we see that with every system already, so that won't be just a new thing for the PS5.



The variable part was to talk about how their cooling system worked. They are keeping it at a constant power draw and temperature. If the GPU requires more power, which means it will create more heat, the CPU will slightly downclock and vice versa. But, if the dev optimizes for that system, they will operate at peak clocks. In fact, he said they could go higher, but it started affecting the on chip logic worked when it was clocked that high. Did people even watch the vid?
I have never heard a not a well optimized game forces downclocks, it actually. Never heard that feature in any current gen consoles or the X series.
 

Shifty1897

Member
Sep 22, 2014
1,878
996
770
Livingston, AL
From what I understand, the 10.28 is more of a theoretical max, you'd have to hit just the right mix boost clocks on both CPU and GPU in order to achieve that. Most use cases will cause it to hover around the 9's.

Of course, TFLOPs won't be an accurate depiction of graphical fidelity next generation anyway.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CatLady

Psykodad

Banned
Apr 9, 2018
3,544
5,345
440
I would say if Series S is in fact real and it comes in at $299 and more powerful than the X I'm sure a lot of people here would claim the S is what we should compare the PS5 to, specifically because there are rumors of an even more powerful PS5 pro coming down the line.
A problem?, a 1080p version of Series X that will probably be $299 or near, and as you lot always like to say, price is paramount.

The problem for MS will be this:

Series S 6Tf

PS5 9-10Tf

XSX 12Tf

PS5 will be a safe middleground between both Xbox version and likely to be priced in between as well.
So while everybody is either cheering or booing atm, the situation of 2 Xbox units will be a worst-case scenario for Xbox.

Because when prices will be €300, €400 and €500 respectively, along with Sony's 1st party output, the 9Tf PS5 is no joke.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Kamina and Jigsaah

SenjutsuSage

Member
Jan 23, 2010
9,848
1,264
970
lol My guy. Stop. You just said on this same page that basically Cerny and Sony are lying and that they are going to be running a majority of their games at 9TF. We have the lead architect just tell us from his mouth the PS5 will run a majority of the time at 2.23Ghz and only downclock when a truly console breaking game is put against it. You think he just made that shit up because he was worried about Xbox fanboys?

I mean, if it makes you feel better, then sure, Cerny is a big, fat liar and the PS5 is shit. At the same time, go and read up on AMD’s Smartshift technology that allows the RDNA2 to shift power back and forth between the CPU and GPU which allows the GPU to stay boosted to 2.23Ghz. Or you can always rewatch the entire section about the GPU so wewouldn’t have to have this conversation in the first place lol.
Believe what you want, and I know what I said, but nice try attempting to turn it into a food fight for console wars. Time to move on won't waste time on the forum abiout that stuff anymore. We know what the specs are now. Next is to see what the games are like and how the SSDs change things and what they can do with the I/O improvements they've made.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Roxkis_ii

lepermessiah

Member
Mar 2, 2020
274
999
365
Blah blah blah, a million bucks on Sony being able to get more with less/faster ssd because of ingenuity over brute forcing. Cerny is a gentle lover but lover none the less. 😂
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Roxkis_ii

Pallas

Gold Member
May 9, 2018
2,799
3,303
595
Tennessee
Frankly, RT is a bit overrated and very power hungry in any PC.

Semi-RT or RT that's effectively used and balanced is more preferable, which Cerny meant whne he said devs can switch RT off.
It is pretty power hungry but it doesn’t change why the series X probably has a lot of CU’s compared to PS5. I take it as Microsoft being more serious about ray tracing. PS5 is no slouch but I think it might have been a victim of unforeseen circumstances(if you recall the suppose rumor about shortages and Sony originally aiming for a 2019 release)
 
  • Like
Reactions: MiyazakiHatesKojima

Stuart360

Member
Sep 9, 2018
4,615
9,088
530
The problem for MS will be this:

Series S 6Tf

PS5 9-10Tf

XSX 12Tf

PS5 will be a safe middleground between both Xbox version and likely to be priced in between as well.
So while everybody is either cheering or booing atm, the situation of 2 Xbox units will be a worst-case scenario for Xbox.

Because when prices will be €300, €400 and €500 respectively, along with Sony's 1st party output, the 9Tf PS5 is no joke.
Well i dont have stocks in either Microsoft or Sony, so it means little to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Iced Arcade

Psykodad

Banned
Apr 9, 2018
3,544
5,345
440
Well i dont have stocks in either Microsoft or Sony, so it means little to me.
Duhhh nobody does, but we discuss these things all the same.


XSX being more powerful means little to me. There's no harm in talking about things.
 

DinoD

Neo Member
Mar 7, 2020
14
27
100
I am sure PS5 will be an amazing upgrade to PS4/Pro. Saying that, I cannot reconcile the time and effort spent by Sony/AMD to retain the hardware back compatibility with PS4 in order to get 100 working ps4 games out of the gate? Thus limiting the GPU options.
It just doesn't make any sense.
The only logical conclusion is that they were aiming at $399 price point all along.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CatLady

The Pleasure

Member
Jan 8, 2019
1,976
2,511
445
Thisnis giving me dreamcast vibes. Remember when the dreamcast did 3 mil polygons while ps2 did 75 mil? The difference is the xbox won't dominate sales wise so unless that power is easy to use without much if any effort will people bother to use it? And cerny is boring as fuck. He is Krazy Ken minus the Krazy and minus the entertainment.
 

Sanpei

Member
Apr 4, 2014
1,207
11
450
Think that as 9.2TF

10.28 is OCed version so it can not run at that speed all day...

PS5 is 9.2TF but it can reach to 10.28 for a limited time when needed...
 

Rightisright

Banned
Sep 18, 2007
1,169
1,779
1,325
Last edited:
  • LOL
Reactions: MiyazakiHatesKojima

Gamernyc78

Banned
Jun 11, 2018
5,058
12,256
640
Concern because the added expense of a more sophisticated cooling solution to cool that thing means that we might actually see a scenario where the PS5 costs just as much as the Series X while being less powerful.

This scenario is very real.
Tht wasnt the context of tht comment. It was clearly referring to over heating 🤦‍♂️ let's stop the fuckery.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MiyazakiHatesKojima

Jigsaah

Member
Jan 31, 2018
4,079
3,483
615
The problem for MS will be this:

Series S 6Tf

PS5 9-10Tf

XSX 12Tf

PS5 will be a safe middleground between both Xbox version and likely to be priced in between as well.
So while everybody is either cheering or booing atm, the situation of 2 Xbox units will be a worst-case scenario for Xbox.

Because when prices will be €300, €400 and €500 respectively, along with Sony's 1st party output, the 9Tf PS5 is no joke.
I don't know. I think options are a good thing. But I could definitely see as well how things could get a bit dicey for Microsoft. Mind you we have no precedent for this kind of move so it's hard to say how the majority of people would react. I think the biggest factor are the 3 prices.

For example let's say PS5 is priced withing 50 bucks of the Series X. I think the idea of PS5 middle ground would be significantly diminished. We have heard that Sony is struggling with the price so this may be possible. When I say 50 dollar difference this could be 499 to 449 or 549 to 499. There marketing psychology that goes into pricing, hence the whole "x99" thing. So I'm considering that as well. With that being said, in a situation like this, The Series S at $299 would shine and both the PS5 and Series X would be seen as premium offers.

With a neat 100 dollar gap between the 3, I would agree, Series X could be in trouble.
 

Stuart360

Member
Sep 9, 2018
4,615
9,088
530
Tht wasst the context of tht comment. It was clearly referring to over heating 🤦‍♂️ let's stop the fuckery.
Some tech people have speculated the PS5 SSD, as it is, would probably cost about $300 to us, now obviously it wouldnt cost Sony $300, but how much cheaper could they get it than us?, $200?, $150?, would £100 even be realistic for Sony?
I do think XSX will be more expensive but i think it will be $50 tops. Thats why neither want to give pricing yet, but someones going to have to at some point.
 

Bryank75

Gold Member
Jan 12, 2018
5,436
9,371
720
Ireland
Yeah it's "up to", the reality is the GPU will likely operate generally around the 9.8 Teraflop range while the Series X is a fixed 12.155 Teraflops.

The GPU in the SX is effectively 1.75 PS4's more powerful than the PS5.

Sorry.
What???? No it's not.... a base PS4 had 1.84 Tflops.

So that's less than one.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MiyazakiHatesKojima

Psykodad

Banned
Apr 9, 2018
3,544
5,345
440
I don't know. I think options are a good thing. But I could definitely see as well how things could get a bit dicey for Microsoft. Mind you we have no precedent for this kind of move so it's hard to say how the majority of people would react. I think the biggest factor are the 3 prices.

For example let's say PS5 is priced withing 50 bucks of the Series X. I think the idea of PS5 middle ground would be significantly diminished. We have heard that Sony is struggling with the price so this may be possible. When I say 50 dollar difference this could be 499 to 449 or 549 to 499. There marketing psychology that goes into pricing, hence the whole "x99" thing. So I'm considering that as well. With that being said, in a situation like this, The Series S at $299 would shine and both the PS5 and Series X would be seen as premium offers.

With a neat 100 dollar gap between the 3, I would agree, Series X could be in trouble.
Completely agree. Even with 2 Xbox units, there is nothing set in stone.

But people do overlook certain things.
Like how Sony seems to be struggling with the price, but we have no idea what's happening on Xbox' side.

Like I said, there's the Series S rumor. Because XSX pricing also needs to take a Series S into consideration if it exists.
 

Pallas

Gold Member
May 9, 2018
2,799
3,303
595
Tennessee
The problem for MS will be this:

Series S 6Tf

PS5 9-10Tf

XSX 12Tf

PS5 will be a safe middleground between both Xbox version and likely to be priced in between as well.
So while everybody is either cheering or booing atm, the situation of 2 Xbox units will be a worst-case scenario for Xbox.

Because when prices will be €300, €400 and €500 respectively, along with Sony's 1st party output, the 9Tf PS5 is no joke.

I see it only a problem if Series S and PS5 are priced too close together. Series S(If it even exists) really needs to be priced competitively and even at a lost if needed, if they can make it $150 or even $200(doubtful but hey) cheaper than the PS5 then that would do wonders.
 

octiny

Member
Jan 11, 2018
799
1,217
415
Elaborate more, Mr. Cowell.

I want to see how Cerny and his team did not foresee these issues and not create custom based architecture to mitigate these. Tell me, Mr. Cowell :p

Honest to God, did some of you even watch the entire 52 minute panel?
There's nothing to elaborate on. We'll have similar based GPUs from AMD before the consoles even launch. You're stretching the word "custom" to laughable proportions. Binning starts from the top & litters down to the bottom (resulting in what I said, again, re-read my post). It's common sense. 52 CU to get to 10TF will always be more efficient (vs 36 CU's @ 10TF). In similar fashion as a 9900K would use/need less voltage (=less power/heat) when disabling Hyperthreading vs a 9700K (which has no HT to begin with) at the same speeds to be stable. It's how binning works, consoles are no different.

SImply put, it's not that Sony didn't mitigate for it, they were simply caught off guard with rumored Xbox numbers. The same core chip has stayed the same, 36 cu's. They simply upped the clocks. No one in their right mind would clock it so high (in a console) from the start. It was too late for them to change course. They were put in a similar position as Xbox One (when they upped both the GPU & CPU clocks prior to launch, albeit slightly).


I'm 100% positive Sony would've opted for a higher CU count w/ lower clock speeds had they known Series X was going to be the beast it currently is, for the simple reason w/ how much money they are putting towards the cooling in it (again, re-reread my first post). It's counterproductive any way you look at it. Which is what this thread is about, correct?

That's not efficiency. That's desperation to narrow the gap, and as some have said, Sony had to cough up extra dough to even cool it correctly which may bite them in the ass later on. Time will tell.

W/ obvious voltage, heat & wattage increase coming w/ clocking so high, it's one of the least efficient consoles to date. Not to mention, the binning process involved w/ less CU's. Similar to GPU's/CPUs of past, higher core count/cuda/CU count @ lower speeds (for same target performance)= less heat/power when compared to the opposite due to the binning process AMD/INTEL/NVIDIA has always used (less voltage for same performance, saved for the higher end cards/cpu's). Again, if we're talking apples to apples, 10tf to 10tf.
 
Last edited:

TLZ

Member
Oct 20, 2015
9,105
11,565
865
Sydney
Yeah it's "up to", the reality is the GPU will likely operate generally around the 9.8 Teraflop range while the Series X is a fixed 12.155 Teraflops.

The GPU in the SX is effectively 1.75 PS4's more powerful than the PS5.

Sorry.
So Cerny says it's mostly at 10.3, and you say it's generally lower.

Who should I believe?

Besides, why won't you give PS5 the 10.3? What difference does it make? You have your 12.1 don't you? Isn't that all you should care about? Isn't 1.8tf enough of a difference? Does pushing that extra 0.5tf win matter that much?

At the end of the day XSX has the power crown now. Just sit back relax and enjoy every gigaflop of it. Let the others enjoy their 10.3!
 

Jigsaah

Member
Jan 31, 2018
4,079
3,483
615
Completely agree. Even with 2 Xbox units, there is nothing set in stone.

But people do overlook certain things.
Like how Sony seems to be struggling with the price, but we have no idea what's happening on Xbox' side.

Like I said, there's the Series S rumor. Because XSX pricing also needs to take a Series S into consideration if it exists.
It's not even a confirmed thing that Sony is struggling with it. I think that came outta Forbes, so I take it with a grain of salt.
 

Psykodad

Banned
Apr 9, 2018
3,544
5,345
440
I see it only a problem if Series S and PS5 are priced too close together. Series S(If it even exists) really needs to be priced competitively and even at a lost if needed, if they can make it $150 or even $200(doubtful but hey) cheaper than the PS5 then that would do wonders.
Seems reasonable.

That's why I think the "war" has only just begun.
And it's gonna be more interesting as well. Current-gen was a bit boring as far as competition's concerned.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Pallas

MaulerX

Member
Jan 8, 2012
2,761
391
640
Tht wasst the context of tht comment. It was clearly referring to over heating 🤦‍♂️ let's stop the fuckery.

The fuckery is you misinterpreting the context of the comment. High clocks like that need more expensive cooling to avoid what you inferred and thus jives with the possibility that the PS5 might cost the same as Xbox while being less powerful. Or do you honestly think that the possibility of this happening is not there?
 
Mar 4, 2020
422
1,529
335
Believe what you want, and I know what I said, but nice try attempting to turn it into a food fight for console wars. Time to move on won't waste time on the forum abiout that stuff anymore. We know what the specs are now. Next is to see what the games are like and how the SSDs change things and what they can do with the I/O improvements they've made.
lol man stop. You (and your several alts) got banned from ResetEra for doing this same mess before. I’m just going to end the conversation here because you are truly in the Sunken Place of Video Games Lol.
 

Jtibh

Member
Sep 19, 2019
2,463
3,993
490
Alberta
This console was designed WITH and FOR kojima.
3d audio , haptik controls, insane ultra fast ssd......
Walking through the mountains in death stranding i will finally hear norman fart tornados from his unhealthy diet of energy drinks and whatever the shit he is picking up from the ground. All this like i am truly there to the point i am opening windows as i am convinced it was me.
 

Pallas

Gold Member
May 9, 2018
2,799
3,303
595
Tennessee
Seems reasonable.

That's why I think the "war" has only just begun.
Ahhh man I wish these wars would just end lol

It’s just with the general consumer, they aren’t really focused on the general specs(though tflops may matter to them now, idk) like we are. Price is probably the most important detail for them, well that and if it can play their games smoothly.