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[2014] Xbox One Indie Parity Clause impacting number of announcements for system

cheesekao

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Apr 26, 2014
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Can someone help me out here? Why do so many indie games released in the US not get released in Asia? Does it cost a lot to digitally release games in multiple regions?
 

El_Cinefilo

Member
Jun 22, 2014
696
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440
Can someone help me out here? Why do so many indie games released in the US not get released in Asia? Does cost a lot to digitally release games in multiple regions?

I imagine small development teams without their own localisation people.
 
Jan 14, 2009
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steamcommunity.com
ITT: Microsoft continues to make stupid decisions regarding content.

Sorry it's a pain in your ass, Chubbigans, but if MS wants to cut off it's nose to spite it's face, I'm all for it. I'm tired of their shenanigans and every time some decision like this is made by them, I think it devalues the brand as a "gaming" platform.

I'm currently considering a next-gen console purchase, and this policy absolutely affects my decision. People choose their platforms these days largely based on 'where my friends are gaming' as well as what the platform offers in terms of features and exclusives. If an "indie" game that's tons of fun is ported to the Playstation family (and even better, is crossbuy with a Vita version), I will undoubtedly buy it again even if I have it on PC already... for the portability, for the accessibility, for the ability to compete against a different set of friends.

Good luck in your endeavors, I do hope it works out for you and the other indie devs that continue to grace us with your own personal visions and innovations. Microsoft eventually backpedaled when they realized the general public wasn't ready for what was essentially a DRM controlled digital library with all it's pros and cons -- so maybe, eventually, you guys will gain some traction and get what you want.
 

El_Cinefilo

Member
Jun 22, 2014
696
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440
It's an interesting read and as a PS4 owner I'm beyond happy with all these games that keep getting announced every week.

It's a shame xbox seems to be lagging behind with them, I've never thought the parity clause was a good idea. Phil Spencer is a smart guy and I'm sure he has his reasons but I'm just not sure what they are.
 

SPE

Member
Mar 30, 2007
6,608
1
1,290
Can someone help me out here? Why do so many indie games released in the US not get released in Asia? Does it cost a lot to digitally release games in multiple regions?

There would be localisation and certification requirements to publish on international PSN or XBLA. Which doesn't come cheap. There are even US/UK made games that never appear on Australian PSN/XBL due to the cost - both time and money - of certification. Which for small teams can outweigh potential sales from the region.
 

El_Cinefilo

Member
Jun 22, 2014
696
97
440
I mean, they can just release it in English right? Plenty of people in asia can speak english and Japan is a different region entirely.

It would be good that way (and with Japanese games in the US/EU since people still import games who don't even speak the language) but I'd see it causing lots of problems with people buying games and THEN discovering they have game they don't understand

EDIT:

There would be localisation and certification requirements to publish on international PSN or XBLA. Which doesn't come cheap. There are even US/UK made games that never appear on Australian PSN/XBL due to the cost - both time and money - of certification. Which for small teams can outweigh potential sales from the region.

and yes certification, I forgot about that
 

family_guy

Member
Mar 17, 2013
9,675
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610
What a ridiculous policy. I don't see why indies would consider playing ball. Okay so you can't make a game for Xbox One, but you can release if for PC, PS4, PS3, Wii U, Vita, Android, and IOS so you're not missing out on that much.
 

cheesekao

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Apr 26, 2014
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0
There would be localisation and certification requirements to publish on international PSN or XBLA. Which doesn't come cheap. There are even US/UK made games that never appear on Australian PSN/XBL due to the cost - both time and money - of certification. Which for small teams can outweigh potential sales from the region.
I see. Thanks for the info.

It would be good that way (and with Japanese games in the US/EU since people still import games who don't even speak the language) but I'd see it causing lots of problems with people buying games and THEN discovering they have game they don't understand
They label the language of the games in the Asian store so that's not really a problem.
 

pager99

Member
Apr 16, 2014
1,104
3
0
This is a great post.

I'm embarrassed to say I was one of those 'lol, indy games don't matter' a few years back, until I discovered Steam sales and started broadening my horizons with regard to smaller games. Now I'm at the point where I probably pick up more indy games each month then AAA titles, simply for the fun, unique game play they offer.

Microsoft really needs to retire this policy.
We'll ps4 has got you covered check out this list of games for 2014 on ps4, over 300
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1O5Xod8QJZEBjpfW3lg4xtcSm9pyhf3UJd4qeDr6rzJM/edit?usp=sharing
 

Rurunaki

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Jul 25, 2013
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How many people do you think has actually bought a PS4 or X1 because of Indie games or for Indie games?.

Might as well ask them who bought xb1 and ps4 for multiplats. PC has everything anway. Just let Sony and MS publish their games on PC.
 

JP

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Mar 7, 2010
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Interesting thread! I always like to hear from developers on here as it adds a bit of substance to the games news that I sometimes read, it's always very different reading about how these things affect people on a personal level. It's a bit like the other Indie thread where Microsoft was late with payments, reading the opinions of the people concerned is far more interesting/useful to me.

Oh yeah, on topic. I know some people complain but I love all the smaller stuff that Sony seem to be signing up on a regular basis. I haven't games on a PC for many years so I'm glad that many of the games I could have missed out on are making an appearance on the console.

PlayStation Plus has been important to me when it comes to these things, they've had some games which hadn't really sold themselves to me and when I've tried them I've loved them and realised they would have easily been worth the asking price for me.
 

Neuromancer

Member
Jan 13, 2009
61,811
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twitter.com


https://twitter.com/ID_Xbox/status/542143333263351811
https://twitter.com/ID_Xbox/status/542143710046072832
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Jan 2, 2007
39,630
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This is a great read. Really shows you how far away from reality MS was when they started the generation. This is the kind of policy that only works if you have an overwhelming market advantage. Even then, it isn't advantageous for devs, only you. Between Steam, iOS, Android, PS4, Wii U, and Vita, devs have too many options and too wide an audience to make bending to MS worthwhile.

Phil, if you're reading this, drop the clause. People would rather have late ports than none. You aren't Nintendo, this ain't the 80s, one more flip flop won't hurt this early in the Gen.
 

Steverulez

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Dec 13, 2006
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As I said earlier, do you really think they're going to announce it if they do change their mind?

In all likelihood, it will go two ways if they change their minds: they'll tell devs its not a thing anymore when devs approach them (which will filter through to us quickly due to social media) to get them to sign games up

Or, they'll just make it a non-issue, sign stuff and not factor in parity. It'll just disappear. Option 1 is obviously more likely.

If you're waiting for a big statement, I really think you'll be waiting a long time, even if they do "180" it.

The point of this was to bring it to their attention again, no? Well, they've acknowledged it here, keep tweeting them, dev speaking out and voting on this (which has a whole extra 15 votes since I posted it) and perhaps we'll get somewhere
 

autoduelist

Member
Aug 30, 2014
13,888
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How many people do you think has actually bought a PS4 or X1 because of Indie games or for Indie games?.

What? I bought a PS4 for games. I don't care about where they come from, just if they're good. I'm perfectly content with lots of indies filling in the gaps between bigger releases. It's not like we'd get more releases without indies, we'd get far less.
 

Razlo

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Jun 25, 2011
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They'd do well to talk about and change their policies. I imagine many devs assume the parity clause is in place and make their platform decisions without first making a phone call to Seattle.
 
Feb 12, 2014
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That was a well thought out OP. I cant see how people can support the parity clause. At the very least, open up the loopholes back up. Seems like a win for MS, and not a complete fuck you to the dev.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Oct 27, 2004
103,709
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As I said earlier, do you really think they're going to announce it if they do change their mind?

They've announced every other 180 and they will surely announce this one too; it'd be good press and it's not like it will stay secret for more than two seconds after they inform devs.

They're going to announce it if they make the change, no doubt in my mind based on their past behavior.

The point of this was to bring it to their attention no? Well, they've acknowledged it here, keep tweeting them, dev speaking out and voting on this (which has a whole extra 15 votes since I posted it)

I mean I can't speak for chubigans, but I imagine on top of wanting to bring it to their attention, he wants to get community engagement on the topic to keep the pressure on. They both work together.
 

Steverulez

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Dec 13, 2006
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They'd do well to talk about and change their policies. I imagine many devs assume the parity clause is in place and make their platform decisions without first making a phone call to Seattle.

Well, they could easily send out emails to people in ID@Xbox, but they're likely never going to tweet about it or make an official press release.
 

hawk2025

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Jan 20, 2013
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Well, they could easily send out emails to people in ID@Xbox, but they're likely never going to tweet about it or make an official press release.



I don't understand why you are getting stuck on this point.

Anyways...
They don't speak publicly on this policy because it's embarassing. Why do they speak publicly on how they give out free dev kits? Or how they plan on having every Xbox One be a dev kit?
 

vin-buc

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May 16, 2014
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How many people do you think has actually bought a PS4 or X1 because of Indie games or for Indie games?.

I bought a 360 (slim model) for Shadow Complex and Limbo. Limbo came out a year later on PS3 which I already had - if I would've known that I wouldn't have bought the 360. Might sound crazy - but its true.
 

Montresor

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Dec 31, 2008
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As I said earlier, do you really think they're going to announce it if they do change their mind?

In all likelihood, it will go two ways if they change their minds: they'll tell devs its not a thing anymore when devs approach them (which will filter through to us quickly due to social media) to get them to sign games up

Or, they'll just make it a non-issue, sign stuff and not factor in parity. It'll just disappear. Option 1 is obviously more likely.

If you're waiting for a big statement, I really think you'll be waiting a long time, even if they do "180" it.

The point of this was to bring it to their attention again, no? Well, they've acknowledged it here, keep tweeting them, dev speaking out and voting on this (which has a whole extra 15 votes since I posted it) and perhaps we'll get somewhere

Voted. Thanks for the link.
 

Night Angel

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Aug 18, 2013
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Nope, and I think it's bad ass that they are really listening to feedback, which is why I am scratching my head over these PHIL SPENCER DOESNT LISTEN ARGHHHH when in reality, there has been more changes happening faster than I can recall for any microsoft product?
They didn't listen to consumers, they listened to sales. The fact that they didn't fix their shit until they were getting dominated proves this.

So far we have no evidence that Phil listens to anything but Benjamins. This would be a wonderful opportunity to prove that false, though.
 

vin-buc

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May 16, 2014
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So easy to see this too but people think of certain executives as heroes when they reverse course because they're getting suplexed in the market.
 

Paz

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Jan 16, 2010
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Wait that stance actually makes no sense, if they don't discuss policies then why do we know the ID program comes with free dev kits & software licenses? And it also implies that if the policy were to go away they would literally be unable to tell any of the people making the 47 listed games that they now have a path to XBox, because they apparently don't discuss policy outside of individual dev requests....

Quite possibly one of the worst answers in the history of gaming corporate double speak.

P.S I actually really like the ID program and team & wish they weren't hamstrung by this clause, there are ways around it so it won't always prevent games from appearing but as a general rule it isn't helping anyone.
 

vin-buc

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May 16, 2014
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They didn't listen to consumers, they listened to sales. The fact that they didn't fix their shit until they were getting dominated proves this.

So far we have no evidence that Phil listens to anything but Benjamins. This would be a wonderful opportunity to prove that false, though.

It still wouldn't prove that false. This announcement will be made....when the competition goes on monthly sales status quo after the new year and MS needs more ammo.
 

MrDanger88

Member
Mar 6, 2010
611
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0
The parity clause is ridiculous, yes, but more than half of that list looks like crap no one will even look at until it's free on PS+ or a dollar on Steam.
 

Night Angel

Member
Aug 18, 2013
5,877
1
0
Wait that stance actually makes no sense, if they don't discuss policies then why do we know the ID program comes with free dev kits & software licenses? And it also implies that if the policy were to go away they would literally be unable to tell any of the people making the 47 listed games that they now have a path to XBox, because they apparently don't discuss policy outside of individual dev requests....

Quite possibly one of the worst answers in the history of gaming corporate double speak.

P.S I actually really like the ID program and team & wish they weren't hamstrung by this clause, there are ways around it so it won't always prevent games from appearing but as a general rule it isn't helping anyone.
"We don't discuss the disgusting side of our policies."
 

GorillaJu

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Apr 23, 2010
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It would be good that way (and with Japanese games in the US/EU since people still import games who don't even speak the language) but I'd see it causing lots of problems with people buying games and THEN discovering they have game they don't understand

EDIT:



and yes certification, I forgot about that

I talked to a buyer in Japan who looks at indie games and decides which ones to pursue for localization and sales, and he was shockingly uninformed on what the titles with big potential are. He dismissed Velocity 2X as uninteresting and had no idea what Binding of Isaac was. I brought in my Vita to show them BOI Rebirth and the three devs that played it were instantly hooked on the classic, simple gameplay.

So to answer the "why" question, I'd say a lot of the guys responsible just don't know how good some of these games are =/
 

Steverulez

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Dec 13, 2006
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They've announced every other 180 and they will surely announce this one too; it'd be good press and it's not like it will stay secret for more than two seconds after they inform devs.

They're going to announce it if they make the change, no doubt in my mind based on their past behavior.

I mean I can't speak for chubigans, but I imagine on top of wanting to bring it to their attention, he wants to get community engagement on the topic to keep the pressure on. They both work together.

DRM, adding in chat headset, changing XBL Gold paywall benefits, removing Kinect from Skus are all customer facing things that affect us directly. The parity clause is a development issue and they don't often discuss things like that publicly, (see removal of certification fees on 360, it took 2 months for that to get through, whether its a sensible way of doing things or not is another matter.

Also, I did say to keep tweeting etc

I don't understand why you are getting stuck on this point.

Anyways...
They don't speak publicly on this policy because it's embarassing. Why do they speak publicly on how they give out free dev kits? Or how they plan on having every Xbox One be a dev kit?

Because when you read posts they seem to be expecting something immediately, I'm being realistic about what we're likely to get and it being embarrassing is why.

Wait that stance actually makes no sense, if they don't discuss policies then why do we know the ID program comes with free dev kits & software licenses? And it also implies that if the policy were to go away they would literally be unable to tell any of the people making the 47 listed games that they now have a path to XBox, because they apparently don't discuss policy outside of individual dev requests...

Discussing things on twitter in public vs discussing privately with developers is I think the point they're making.
 
Apr 14, 2008
10,656
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New Orleans
So easy to see this too but people think of certain executives as heroes when they reverse course because they're getting suplexed in the market.

Honestly, the fact that things like the parity clause still exist imply guys like Spencer aren't benevolent corporate executives making the Xbox all anyone could ever want it to be. It implies the 180s that were made were only made because Spencer and co. absolutely could not get away with not making them. Other policies that people find distasteful remain so long as the guys at Xbox think they can get away with keeping them.

Thanks to this thread, parity might be on the way out, but boy did it take a long time and a lot of "look at how much money you're losing you fools" to make it happen.
 

VinFTW

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Jul 19, 2014
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As I suggested to Chris Charla on Twitter, I really think they should hold a private convention/conference open to indie developers to brain storm better policies/tools etc, etc.

They REALLY need to get that "every box is a dev kit" out ASAP.
 

Steverulez

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Dec 13, 2006
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As I suggested to Chris Charla on Twitter, I really think they should hold a private convention/conference open to indie developers to brain storm better policies/tools etc, etc.

They REALLY need to get that "every box is a dev kit" out ASAP.

They have been doing events at different places but I haven't seen them mention any recently so I don't know if it was an introductory thing or not for earlier in the year when they were still new
 

VinFTW

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Jul 19, 2014
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They have been doing events at different places but I haven't seen them mention any recently so I don't know if it was an introductory thing or not

Interesting! Didn't know that.

I was thinking more like a large scale GDC, exclusively for the betterment of the indie devs. They are, IMO, the future.

Having them help build the tools, policies, environment, etc is KEY.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Oct 27, 2004
103,709
3
0
36
Nowhere, PA
DRM, adding in chat headset, changing XBL Gold paywall benefits, removing Kinect from Skus are all customer facing things that affect us directly. The parity clause is a development issue and they don't often discuss things like that publicly, (see removal of certification fees on 360, it took 2 months for that to get through, whether its a sensible way of doing things or not is another matter.

this effects us too, especially XBO owners. They are directly receiving a much smaller amount of games due to it.
 

vin-buc

Member
May 16, 2014
1,304
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0
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Honestly, the fact that things like the parity clause still exist imply guys like Spencer aren't benevolent corporate executives making the Xbox all anyone could ever want it to be. It implies the 180s that were made were only made because Spencer and co. absolutely could not get away with not making them. Other policies that people find distasteful remain so long as the guys at Xbox think they can get away with keeping them.

Thanks to this thread, parity might be on the way out, but boy did it take a long time and a lot of "look at how much money you're losing you fools" to make it happen.

Honestly - the person heading the ship is the one who had buy-in on all the policies from the getgo. I can only think that he has a big problem reversing what we helped create - its ego. I'm going off topic a bit.

Anyway - the policy should be done away if anything else just for the consoles health.
 

shacklesmcgee

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Oct 8, 2013
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As I suggested to Chris Charla on Twitter, I really think they should hold a private convention/conference open to indie developers to brain storm better policies/tools etc, etc.

They REALLY need to get that "every box is a dev kit" out ASAP.

What ever happened to this? Seems like they just stopped talking about it
 

LestradeTGQ

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May 29, 2011
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Toronto, Canada
www.snowcomic.com
I want to ask Valve also has been helpful towards indie devs same thing worked for you? I really like Steam and with the recent overhaul of the store i hear great news from indie's that there sales have gone up and that i am glad with.

Valve has been great. They came to Toronto a few years ago to pitch Steam as a platform for the local devs (encouraged by companies like Capy to do so). I pitched and got Home accepted after that meetup.

Also, I spoke to some reps at GDC this year and pitched the idea of a Canada Day sale, which they had not done before. We ran the sale this year and they were very supportive.


I just got 100% on my trophy list for your game. Just wanted to say good job on the title and hope it pans out well for you both financially and personally.

Thank you so much! Ha ha, I still have to get 100% trophies in my own game. :-/
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Nov 24, 2012
8,436
234
675
munich
Microsoft should realise that their policy is hurting their plattform.
These indiegame are perfect to fill the gaps between bigger releases, Sony is building good relationships with many devs and by having way more indies on their plattform their chance is higher to get the next minecraft.

Late is better than never, Microsoft.
 

Steverulez

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Dec 13, 2006
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Damn, this should be a thread in itself! Closest I can find is back in August, with just vague notions of it still existing

http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/14/xbox-one-dev-kit-retail/

There was. An MS guy said it was canned then ID@Xbox said it wasn't or something. Seems like something they announced before they realised it would be possible or not, or it got put on the back burner to fix other issues. I suspect the OS team are incredibly busy, especially seeing as they're rumoured to be re-doing visual side of the dash