• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Drama 30 fps killing my eyes! Devs should abandon it!

Jun 10, 2020
333
644
350
Tell that dev to give us two options pls.
Many console games allready have the 1080p/60 or 4k/30 option and i think this will become more of a standart. TLOU2 is a hardware pushing miracle and even with muddy textures and 720p it would be very difficult to get a steady 60fps. Gonna wait for the PS5 version with these console exclusives dude.

But yeah i can feel u, due to my handicap i often have to wait for a PC version bc fricking DEVs are not cappable to let me make my own control profiles...
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChoosableOne
S

Sidney Prescott

Unconfirmed Member
30 FPS has never been an issue and the only ones making it an issue are overzealous console warring kiddies.
I can cope with it in story games, but I think it is tough to play in multiplayer or FPS games. Destiny being a prime example. I honestly got motion sickness from that game with the ultra zoomed in FoV and 30FPS on consoles. It honestly affected my enjoyment at times. I think it is 60 on the newer generation now though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Claus Grimhildyr

TLZ

Member
Oct 20, 2015
11,725
17,520
980
Sydney
Totally agree with you. Some devs are now jumping all the way to 120fps even. It's ok I'm more than happy with getting 60fps right first with whatever res it runs at.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChoosableOne

Tchu-Espresso

likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
Apr 14, 2006
4,732
1,600
1,700
Object motion blur is generally good. But camera motion blur as you look around is horrible, I always turn that shit down to zero. Even I get a bit nauseated my lots of camera motion blur in games, not so much in movies. It a bit like getting car sic, it's a feedback loop between what you expect from your inputs or feel in the car and what your eyes see not adding up to what our senses have evolved for.
Nah camera motion blur makes it feel buttery smooth. Keep it coming.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TonyK and rofif

CitizenZ

Member
Jan 14, 2021
985
887
320
I wish someone could go back and find the posts when PCs were yrs ahead with 60+FPS but console fans were saying <30 was perfect. i think there was one on Horizon if im not mistaken, someone find that.
 

Justin9mm

Member
May 9, 2018
1,726
1,350
405
Melbourne, Australia
I was playing shadow of the tomb raider on my PS5 on high framerate which I think is 1080p/60. I was loving the 60fps for a while on my 4K TV and thought this doesn't look so bad until I got to a few areas and the loss of detail looked quite bad and jarring. I ended up switching back to 4K/30. I cannot do 1080p/60 on a 4K TV. Same with God of War which i went back to play on my PS5, 1080p/60 didn't look great, I prefer to put up with 30fps and a higher resolution.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TonyK
Dec 4, 2019
3,172
4,716
545
I always prefer fps over 'visual quality'.
At 30 fps you just gotta spend so much brainpower trying to stitch the frames together in your head, best use the computer for it.

Snappier response, makes me feel more part of the game.

60 fps OR DIE
 

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
17,129
79,941
965
35
Salalah, Oman
I'm playing The Last of Us Part 2 these days and my eyes are killing me! I'm trying to avoid camera movements at all costs.

I think that games i played all those years which run at 30 fps and below caused my myopia(especially, playing TES:Oblivion with 15-20 fps for more than 100 hours :messenger_tears_of_joy:). You don't believe it? Here is a literature review about screen time(use of digital devices) and myopia relation: link to scielo.br. They reviewed 9 studies with more than 100.000 participants in total. In conclusion, they can't say it's related for sure but they suspect it may has some effect on it. Maybe someone will do a study about 30 fps vs 60 fps games and their effects on eye problems in future. I think 30 fps does more damage than screen time or resolution.

I think devs should leave this old crap behind. I can handle some low resolution textures here and there. But i can't take this 30 fps bs anymore! It's not healthy at all.

PS: Great game so far btw.

I think you have an OLED, that's your main problem = 24-30fps stutter.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Keihart

Razvedka

Member
Oct 20, 2018
633
861
385
I think within the wider context of Neogaf as an online society these 30fps threads are like some kind of ritual. They're a bizarre tradition.
 

Tchu-Espresso

likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
Apr 14, 2006
4,732
1,600
1,700
No thanks, 120hz fps with black frame insertion is where it's at, I want to see the environment. Low fps and the need to cover it up with motion blur should be a thing of the past.
Black Frame Insertion needs to go away unless you like the flicker/strobe light effect and to tempt an epileptic seizure.
 
Last edited:

rofif

Member
Sep 13, 2019
7,004
9,737
620
Humans are very good at adapting. If you start to only play 30fps games, it stops being an issue after a while. But switching between high and low fps makes these low fps look pretty bad.

I was fine with 30fps and even the stuttering Bloodborne mess. Then I bought a good PC with a 144hz monitor and suddenly Bloodborne became unplayable. I'm not willing to go back to 30fps anymore, it's so distracting.

That said, Spider-Man on PS4 Pro at 30fps was acceptable for me for some reason and didn't fry my brain. Maybe it was the good motion blur.
Yep. When I had 240hz monitor, even 144hz looked like trash. And 60 was unplayable. My trick always was to just play for a while and you get used to it. Fps is something you stop noticing and whenever I played 30 or 240, I stopped noticing "oh why is only 30 and oh wow 240 is so smooth" quickly... While nice graphics is something I notice all the time and remember the game by. Not fps. That's why I've sold all this 240 and 144 for 4k60ips with best image quality I could find. Souls games are 60fps... So I also did not wanted these to feel jarring each time I play them. And ds3 has bad aa but looks amazing at 4k.

So as long as 30 and 60 is stable and motion blur is nice, it's fine.

My fav trick is to lock fps to 20 or 25 when switching from high hz to 30. It you play like that for 15 minutes? Then 30 and 60 feels like heaven.
It's all about perception and getting used to it. I hate these ellie fps pcmr claims that once you try 144 you can't go back. Bitch I came back no problem from 240 and was happier. Life is much easier now as I don't have to also look for fps unlockers for many games and then reading about the bugs that happen at high fps...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: regawdless

Keihart

Member
Jun 23, 2013
5,612
4,078
855
Don't disable motion blur.
I think you have an OLED, that's your main problem = 24-30fps stutter.
I love my OLED but i can't play Hades on it because of it, scrolling images are a nightmare without some post processing which you have to disable to have some decent latency in games (no matter the framerate really). First time i've noticed it tho, no idea if most games on consoles smooth the scrolling somehow or what, but since i'm playing the PC version, it's a no go on the OLED.

Edit:
Also OP, the most accepted theory it's the correlation with sunlight exposure. The relation with reading or screen usage is in the category of myths by now.
Myopia, Lifestyle, and Schooling in Students of Chinese Ethnicity in Singapore and Sydney
Exposure to Sunlight Reduces the Risk of Myopia in Rhesus Monkeys
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
17,129
79,941
965
35
Salalah, Oman
Don't disable motion blur.

I love my OLED but i can't play Hades on it because of it, scrolling images are a nightmare without some post processing which you have to disable to have some decent latency in games (no matter the framerate really). First time i've noticed it tho, no idea if most games on consoles smooth the scrolling somehow or what, but since i'm playing the PC version, it's a no go on the OLED.

Yeah OLED is wonderful, might even gamble and get Sony A90J if Sony's stutter is much better than LG C9 (5 out of 10) and CX (4.8 out of 10) according to rtings.com . If not then I'm going for X95J FLAD.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keihart

rofif

Member
Sep 13, 2019
7,004
9,737
620
Object motion blur is generally good. But camera motion blur as you look around is horrible, I always turn that shit down to zero. Even I get a bit nauseated my lots of camera motion blur in games, not so much in movies. It a bit like getting car sic, it's a feedback loop between what you expect from your inputs or feel in the car and what your eyes see not adding up to what our senses have evolved for.
Pause any frame of a movie when the camera is moving. It's always blurry as the camera captures a period of time and not a still frame. Look outside of a moving car to the side. It's blurry. Your eyes are not super high shutter speed cameras. In order for 30fps to show proper motion, it can't be a collection of still frames. That can pass without motion blur only at 240hz and more since only then there is enough data coming to brain.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

regawdless

Banned
Sep 21, 2020
2,724
7,028
555
Yep. When I had 240hz monitor, even 144hz looked like trash. And 60 was unplayable. My trick always was to just play for a while and you get used to it. Fps is something you stop noticing and whenever I played 30 or 240, I stopped noticing "oh why is only 30 and oh wow 240 is so smooth" quickly... While nice graphics is something I notice all the time and remember the game by. Not fps. That's why I've sold all this 240 and 144 for 4k60ips with best image quality I could find. Souls games are 60fps... So I also did not wanted these to feel jarring each time I play them. And ds3 has bad aa but looks amazing at 4k.

So as long as 30 and 60 is stable and motion blur is nice, it's fine.

My fav trick is to lock fps to 20 or 25 when switching from high hz to 30. It you play like that for 15 minutes? Then 30 and 60 feels like heaven.
It's all about perception and getting used to it. I hate these ellie fps pcmr claims that once you try 144 you can't go back. Bitch I came back no problem from 240 and was happier. Life is much easier now as I don't have to also look for fps unlockers for many games and then reading about the bugs that happen at high fps...

This is true, but I have a hard time now going to 30 with MKb because all feels so delayed. With a controller it's somewhat more tolerable. 50+ is usually the minimum for me.

Some months ago I had a traditional LAN party where we were playing all these old games like Q3A, CS Source etc. All of course flat 144fps. Going back to 60fps directly afterwards felt legitimately broken.

It's all a matter of perspective and habit.
 

ChoosableOne

ChoosableAll
Dec 1, 2019
487
366
465
I think you have an OLED, that's your main problem = 24-30fps stutter.
No, i'm playing on a 75hz 1080p asus 1ms monitor, without motion blur(because it makes me dizzy). And i also tried it on a full hd samsung TV, as Kuranghi Kuranghi suggested. It's more acceptable that way but still not close to a 60 fps experience. Thanks for the advise btw.
Don't disable motion blur.

I love my OLED but i can't play Hades on it because of it, scrolling images are a nightmare without some post processing which you have to disable to have some decent latency in games (no matter the framerate really). First time i've noticed it tho, no idea if most games on consoles smooth the scrolling somehow or what, but since i'm playing the PC version, it's a no go on the OLED.

Edit:
Also OP, the most accepted theory it's the correlation with sunlight exposure. The relation with reading or screen usage is in the category of myths by now.
Myopia, Lifestyle, and Schooling in Students of Chinese Ethnicity in Singapore and Sydney
Exposure to Sunlight Reduces the Risk of Myopia in Rhesus Monkeys
There could more than one cause for it. Review that i shared published recently, in nov 2020. We can't be sure without a study about 30 fps vs 60fps exposure. They should collaborate with DF in that one:)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kuranghi

Frogman_676

Member
Oct 5, 2018
492
508
395
i am sorry, but this sounds like a personal problem to me. *doesn't pay attention to framerates in most games*
 

The_Mike

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,325
8,636
760
30 fps kills my eyes because of how silky smooth and cinematic it is. If only my eyes could get used to such refinement and richness.
Wtf were you used to 15 or 20 fps before that?
Saying 30 fps is silky smooth is like comparing true silky smooth (100+ fps) with hessian texture (30 fps)

Games aren't movies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JeloSWE

JeloSWE

Member
Mar 23, 2015
754
1,125
580
Pause any frame of a movie when the camera is moving. It's always blurry as the camera captures a period of time and not a still frame. Look outside of a moving car to the side. It's blurry. Your eyes are not super high shutter speed cameras. In order for 30fps to show proper motion, it can't be a collection of still frames. That can pass without motion blur only at 240hz and more since only then there is enough data coming to brain.
You are missing one thing here though, having motion blur on at 30 fps is only correct if you eyes remains staring in a static point on screen. Say rotating the camera while only looking at your character from a 3rd camera position, then the blur applied to the panning background will be correct. But if your eyes are not static but instead following the panning background along, looking for enemies, clues or other things, say a store sign then it will be incorrectly blurred with motion blur on, so here turning motion blur off will help greatly with it clarity. Still it will appear a bit blurred on a regular OLED or LCD due to the pixels being displayed with Sample and Hold but turning camera blur off is preferable for image clarity and replicating how our eyes work more closely. To be able to cover both scenarios you need indeed higher fps, 120, 240 or more and preferably with Black Frame Insertion as well.
 
Last edited:

JeloSWE

Member
Mar 23, 2015
754
1,125
580
Black Frame Insertion needs to go away unless you like the flicker/strobe light effect and to tempt an epileptic seizure.
BFI is not a problem when it's applied to games with at high fps and refresh rates around 90-120hz and up. When it's applied to 60hz I can totally agree it being too flackery in most implementations.
 

rofif

Member
Sep 13, 2019
7,004
9,737
620
This is true, but I have a hard time now going to 30 with MKb because all feels so delayed. With a controller it's somewhat more tolerable. 50+ is usually the minimum for me.

Some months ago I had a traditional LAN party where we were playing all these old games like Q3A, CS Source etc. All of course flat 144fps. Going back to 60fps directly afterwards felt legitimately broken.

It's all a matter of perspective and habit.
Yeah 30fps better with controller than mouse
 
  • Like
Reactions: regawdless

Keihart

Member
Jun 23, 2013
5,612
4,078
855
Playing a 30 fps game without motion blur
 

apowhungo

Member
Feb 7, 2013
95
139
700
i used to think people who complained about 30fps are whiny bitches and should just stick to PC... but then the games with performance/fidelity toggles for this gen started coming out (miles morales, god of war) and holy shit i literally cant go back to 30fps games. it actually gives me motion sickness or something, i sit hella close to my tv... i wasnt able to go back to fidelity mode in miles once i switched it, so i totally know where youre coming from.

im scared to go back to replay tlou 2 until theres a next gen patch :/ once you get a taste of that 60fps life its all over
 

manfestival

Member
Nov 12, 2009
13,035
3,914
1,255
Wtf were you used to 15 or 20 fps before that?
Saying 30 fps is silky smooth is like comparing true silky smooth (100+ fps) with hessian texture (30 fps)

Games aren't movies.
You have no idea what you are talking about. 30 fps is the PINNACLE of gaming. The human eye cannot even see beyond 30fps because it is so imperceivably fast. The world only exists at 30fps.
 

Roni

Member
Aug 13, 2015
2,573
1,452
845
29
São Paulo, Brazil
I'm playing The Last of Us Part 2 these days and my eyes are killing me! I'm trying to avoid camera movements at all costs.

I think that games i played all those years which run at 30 fps and below caused my myopia(especially, playing TES:Oblivion with 15-20 fps for more than 100 hours :messenger_tears_of_joy:). You don't believe it? Here is a literature review about screen time(use of digital devices) and myopia relation: link to scielo.br. They reviewed 9 studies with more than 100.000 participants in total. In conclusion, they can't say it's related for sure but they suspect it may has some effect on it. Maybe someone will do a study about 30 fps vs 60 fps games and their effects on eye problems in future. I think 30 fps does more damage than screen time or resolution.

I think devs should leave this old crap behind. I can handle some low resolution textures here and there. But i can't take this 30 fps bs anymore! It's not healthy at all.

PS: Great game so far btw.
That take just made you ineligible to be chosen.
 

8BiTw0LF

Member
Jun 5, 2013
1,083
2,761
765
I'll likely miss out on "great games" but I won't be buying any console games without a 60 FPS mode this generation.
I've done that for the past 4 years on PS4. Waiting for 60fps versions on PS5 and if they're not coming - fine. I won't play 30fps games, no matter what. I can understand it was an issue in the past, especially in early 2000's when graphics became more important than gameplay - but now we have the hardware (CPU) to have +60fps in all games. If a game is running at 30fps this generation, it's pure lack of skill from developers.
 
Last edited:

TonyK

Member
Aug 13, 2020
1,096
1,827
420
I was playing shadow of the tomb raider on my PS5 on high framerate which I think is 1080p/60. I was loving the 60fps for a while on my 4K TV and thought this doesn't look so bad until I got to a few areas and the loss of detail looked quite bad and jarring. I ended up switching back to 4K/30. I cannot do 1080p/60 on a 4K TV. Same with God of War which i went back to play on my PS5, 1080p/60 didn't look great, I prefer to put up with 30fps and a higher resolution.
Same here. I'm playing Valhalla and Miles Morales in PS5 at 4k 30fps because in a 65" 4k TV the loss of detail bothers me more than the difference in framerate. But I understand that people prefers the opposite because, obviously, game plays better at 60. However, at 30fps is still perfectly playable and it looks better, what is a plus for me regarding immersion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Justin9mm

tommib

Member
Dec 7, 2020
1,228
3,186
395
Netherlands
Movies are shot with a steady camera. The motion is in front of the camera and when the camera moves it's slowly and steady - or else people will get sick of watching movies.

In games, you're the cameraman and if you play your games above standard sensitivity, to move faster - 30fps will make you sick.
Not true. A lot of directors love fast tracking shots and camera ballets. Scorsese and De Palma come to mind. Never heard of people getting sick with a tracking shot. Was everyone sick playing N64 and PS1 games? Where is this evidence?
 

Tchu-Espresso

likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
Apr 14, 2006
4,732
1,600
1,700
I was playing shadow of the tomb raider on my PS5 on high framerate which I think is 1080p/60. I was loving the 60fps for a while on my 4K TV and thought this doesn't look so bad until I got to a few areas and the loss of detail looked quite bad and jarring. I ended up switching back to 4K/30. I cannot do 1080p/60 on a 4K TV. Same with God of War which i went back to play on my PS5, 1080p/60 didn't look great, I prefer to put up with 30fps and a higher resolution.
In the Opposite for SoTR. 30fps seems super jarring.

Ratchet and Clank though feels fine.
 

Gifmaker

Member
Oct 24, 2017
314
1,009
570
I don't have this issue. Just turn on motion interpolation on your smart TV and you will have smooth buttery 60fps for every game you want. It's literally the click of a single button, lol.

GTG now, need to improve on my 1-92 K/D ratio in Doom.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: rodrigolfp

JeloSWE

Member
Mar 23, 2015
754
1,125
580
I don't have this issue. Just turn on motion interpolation on your smart TV and you will have smooth buttery 60fps for every game you want. It's literally the click of a single button, lol.

GTG now, need to improve on my 1-92 K/D ratio in Doom.
I hope you don't play fighting games and fps with motion interpolation on LOL, I can't stand the sluggish heavy feeling of those +150~200ms
 

Justin9mm

Member
May 9, 2018
1,726
1,350
405
Melbourne, Australia
Same here. I'm playing Valhalla and Miles Morales in PS5 at 4k 30fps because in a 65" 4k TV the loss of detail bothers me more than the difference in framerate. But I understand that people prefers the opposite because, obviously, game plays better at 60. However, at 30fps is still perfectly playable and it looks better, what is a plus for me regarding immersion.
Yeah it really depends on the game.. For example playing Demon's Souls and Fenyx Rising on performance mode 60fps is fine but I really think that is because performance is still running Dynamic 4K.

I have not tried Miles Morales in Performance mode yet.. If its still some sort of higher Dynamic 4K resolution I can accept that but 1080p on my 75" 4K TV for gaming just doesn't look too good.
 

Justin9mm

Member
May 9, 2018
1,726
1,350
405
Melbourne, Australia
In the Opposite for SoTR. 30fps seems super jarring.

Ratchet and Clank though feels fine.
It is at first when you first switch back after playing 60fps and for a while I stuck with high framerate option because of that but that feeling goes away after playing for 5 or 10 minutes and your eyes adjust. However the graphics do not, its always there reminding you when you keep seeing low resolution textures and blurring etc.

I guess its personal preference, I can't mentally get over low resolution whether as 30fps annoys me but I can certainly put up with it. Its obviously much worse effect after playing in 60fps and switching to 30fps but if you play for a while or start with 30fps its not so bad.

A game that graphically looks nice helps add to my immersion.
 
Last edited:

kyussman

Member
Dec 6, 2018
912
1,442
390
England,UK
I really couldn't care less...I've played games at 30fps and games at 60fps....is 60fps objectively smoother,yes it is....are all the games I've played at 60fps better experiences than those I've played at 30fps,nope.....a good game is a good game to me,if it has a high framerate too...even better!
 
  • Strength
Reactions: rofif