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[dark10x]

I'd like to know how you can tell the difference between 30 FPS and 60 FPS. Because when I go from playing Resident Evil 4, to playing Metroid Prime 2, I see no difference.

It certainly isn't something you put into words, I can tell you that. You can't tell? Well, that's fine.

What annoys me are those who, like you, can't tell...but then go on to blast others that can claiming that they are only making such statements in order to troll something else.

 

[Gek54]

I approve of this thread.



60fps - looks real - easier to follow movement.
30fps - looks like a film - choppy blurry mess.
FPS>Detail

 

[jedimike]

We haven't exactly been greeted with mindblowing visuals in the next gen 30fps games on store shelves. Heck, many next gen titles thus far fail to meet graphical expectations even at the lower framerate.

So, instead of demanding better results from developers, some choose to simply lower their expectations?

4 years and $400 should yield a much better result.

I don't know what the typical gamer expects as far as visuals go. I have realistic expectations. I understand that not every developer can afford to hire 100's of artists. I understand that multi-core processors are something that most developers have never done before. I understand that the games released so far did not start development on 360 dev kits.

I also think that the 360 games look great. PGR3, King Kong, PDZero all look very good. Of all the games, I would only classify Gun as being a graphical dissapointment.

The thing is, when I go to choose a racing game and I see PGR3, RR6, and NFS... there are a hundred different factors involved in my decision. I can safely say that whether a game runs in 30 or 60 is not a factor. It's not even a blip on my radar. Yet, it seems to be the first bloody thing that comes out of GAF's collective mouth... but it's always the same few who start it.

Like I said, it has become this "elitist" attitude. The attitude that any game not at 60fps is shit. The attitude that playing anything less than 60 is like fingernails on a chalkboard. The attitude that developers making 30fps games should be drawn and quartered.

There are so many more important reasons to judge games.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I feel really sorry for you guys that include this in your list of dealbreakers for games. PGR3 is the most impressive XB360 launch title and is an absolute killer piece of software. It stands out as the game that is surely a generational leap from its predecessors in the visuals department more than any other game.

Personally I am happy that these guys pushed the envelope so far and the only thing they didn't deliver on is the 60fps. Would you have preferred that every dev had used their minimal time with final dev kits to CRAP OUT SHIT LIKE GUN AND THAW?? Just cuz they're 60fps? These are launch titles. Give it a break.

Come on, now. Saying we'd be pleased with any crap at 60 frames per second is as fair as saying that you'd love a beautiful 5 frames per second game. I'd just rather see a next gen game that looked, say, 4x better than a current gen game in any given still going at 60 fps, than 8x better than a current gen game in any given still going at 30.

It's just my opinion that things like higher resolution, better frame rate, anti-aliasing, and draw distance should be the first things to improve, to get a really nice clean image. All of those things could be accomplished and still easily outdo the models and effects of this current gen. From that point on any further improvements could be pure candy.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

We haven't exactly been greeted with mindblowing visuals in the next gen 30fps games on store shelves. Heck, many next gen titles thus far fail to meet graphical expectations even at the lower framerate.

So, instead of demanding better results from developers, some choose to simply lower their expectations?

4 years and $400 should yield a much better result.

Bingo.

The only thing stopping any game from hitting and maintaining 60fps is optimization, or the lack thereof.

I just got a 360 yesterday. So MR. M$ (PhatSaqs) and all you other pro-XBOX peeps need to STFU.

All I did was ask what games run as smooth as RR6 (60fps). These stupid anti-60fps zealots turned this into the same tired-ass 30vs60 debate that I was not trying to get into.

Again, "4 years and $400 should yield a much better result."

 

[krypt0nian]

All I did was ask what games run as smooth as RR6 (60fps). These stupid anti-60fps zealots turned this into the same tired-ass 30vs60 debate that I was not trying to get into.

Cool beans. Blim gave you your answer.

 

[eso76]

Tearing is good !
I'll tell you why: you have tearing when refresh drops below 60fps and v-sync is disabled.

To prevent screen tearing you have to enable v-sync, but if this happens (refresh dropping below 60fps) and v-sync is enabled the framerate will immediately drop to 30;
V-Sync will lock anything below 60- even 59fps - to 30fps; anything below 30 to 20, anything below 20 to 15 and so on.
Now, i certainly prefer some screen tearing to sudden 30fps drops; those perceived as huge slowdowns might actually be the scene rendering 1 or 2 fps too slow to reach the 60fps target

And btw, i just received my RR6 copy. 60fps is nice, but it doesn't hold a wet candle against PGR3.

 

[Newzboyz99]

personally don't care about framerates as long as the game is smooth, however, these nit picking elitists at least do provide a service of bitching and moaning which probably does help companies at least 'strive' for 60fps because of nerds that scrutinize their games.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Give us the option developers...DEVELOPERS...DEVELOPERS!!

And btw, i just received my RR6 copy. 60fps is nice, but it doesn't hold a wet candle against PGR3.

In terms of what? Certainly not gameplay.

 

[ELS-01X]

I actually prefer games to run at 30 fps. I remember watching the trailers for Rogue Leader back in 2001 and going O_O, but when I saw it running in 60 fps on a TV part of the excitement went down. Perhaps the added ghosting of internet videos made it look better. I'd rather have 30 fps with MB than 60 fps. Yes, some will say that they'll rather have 60 fps+ MB but so far I haven't seen any game to run like that so I can't really say anything about it.

 

[eso76]

In terms of what? Certainly not gameplay.

Gameplay is very subjective, but if i didn't like RR gameplay i wouldn't have grabbed chapter 6
i'm talking about graphics; RR6 is nice and clean but there's absolutely nothing spectacular.

 

[mashoutposse]

60fps has been the goal since Sega Model 2 games from 1994. For most genres, the impact is significant. Imagine PGR3 with no other upgrades but a bump to 60fps.

We are talking about 'video' games. Excellent visuals are important independent of its effect on gameplay functionality (and thus far, no next gen game has introduced gameplay that cannot be replicated fully on XBOX/PS2/GC).

And I'd certainly argue that 30fps vs. 60fps is more than a simple "nitpick."

 

[TheDuce22]

And I'd certainly argue that 30fps vs. 60fps is more than a simple "nitpick."

I feels like a nitpick when its nearly impossible for me to tell if Call of Duty 2 runs at a higher framerate than something like Perfect Dark Zero. There must be something wrong with my eyes. PDZ actually looks better in motion IMO thanks to the motion blur.

 

[Bebpo]

Tearing is good !
I'll tell you why: you have tearing when refresh drops below 60fps and v-sync is disabled.

To prevent screen tearing you have to enable v-sync, but if this happens (refresh dropping below 60fps) and v-sync is enabled the framerate will immediately drop to 30;
V-Sync will lock anything below 60- even 59fps - to 30fps; anything below 30 to 20, anything below 20 to 15 and so on.
Now, i certainly prefer some screen tearing to sudden 30fps drops; those perceived as huge slowdowns might actually be the scene rendering 1 or 2 fps too slow to reach the 60fps target

And btw, i just received my RR6 copy. 60fps is nice, but it doesn't hold a wet candle against PGR3.

Screen tearing can be ok if it doesn't happy often and it just happens for a second or two during gameplay while rotating the camera or something (see Jak II0. When it's not ok is when it happens during non-playable cinematic cutscenes (Madden, Enchant Arm). There's nothing that kills a cutscene more than a line running through it making the top half not be aligned with the bottom half.

 

[mashoutposse]

COD2 runs at less than 60fps a lot of the time. Compare a game like MotoGP to say, Forza. Big difference.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

In having all 3 racing games for the 360. There really isn't a problem going from playing RR6 to PGR3, but you do notice when you go from RR6 to NFS:MW

 

[Blimblim]

In having all 3 racing games for the 360. There really isn't a problem going from playing RR6 to PGR3, but you do notice when you go from RR6 to NFS:MW

NFS:MW runs below the 30 fps line. That's definitely not acceptable, even if the game is pretty fun.

 

[Demigod Mac]

60 fps is sorely missed in Madden 2006.

I saw the demo and my impression was: "damn that's impressive! If only it was smoother...."

 

[Andy787]

Is 60 fps some kind of elitist badge of honor? I mean does anyone really care? As long as the game is not choppy... I'm good. Having a list of 60fps games is about as important as listing games that have weiner dogs or green apples.

No it really doesn't matter. But, this is the internet and it's filled with elitist pricks who need to bitch about SOMETHING.

Why does it make you an elitist, let alone an elitist prick, just because you like something?

Shit, I really don't care (I mean, I like it, but it's not a huge deal to me), but this kind of attitude is really annoying. It's like when people call others elitist pricks because they get to know the intricacies of a fighter, or they like 2d shooters, or whatever. Bleh.

 

[Stinkles]

youre full of it. you're tellng me 30 or 60 fos is a make or break point for you as far as games go? I highly doubt that.

Elitist drama queens, i swear.

Have you been to GAF before?


Non 60fps racing game = Satan's bowel movement

 

[Pimpbaa]

Tearing is good !
I'll tell you why: you have tearing when refresh drops below 60fps and v-sync is disabled.

To prevent screen tearing you have to enable v-sync, but if this happens (refresh dropping below 60fps) and v-sync is enabled the framerate will immediately drop to 30;
V-Sync will lock anything below 60- even 59fps - to 30fps; anything below 30 to 20, anything below 20 to 15 and so on.
Now, i certainly prefer some screen tearing to sudden 30fps drops; those perceived as huge slowdowns might actually be the scene rendering 1 or 2 fps too slow to reach the 60fps target

And btw, i just received my RR6 copy. 60fps is nice, but it doesn't hold a wet candle against PGR3.

Using triple buffering with v-sync eliminates this problem.

 

[Red Blaster]

Ninja Gaiden would suck at 30 fps.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

NHL2k6 also runs at 60. I dont think that's been mentioned.

 

[dark10x]

I feels like a nitpick when its nearly impossible for me to tell if Call of Duty 2 runs at a higher framerate than something like Perfect Dark Zero. There must be something wrong with my eyes. PDZ actually looks better in motion IMO thanks to the motion blur.

PDZ runs like shit, though. The framerate chugs well under 20 fps at times and the tearing is insane. CoD2 drops plenty as well, but it's nowhere near as bad as PDZ.

Honestly, if you can't tell the difference, there is something wrong with you. To be honest, though, you might be better off...

I do like the 30 fps + motion blur approach, though. That's much better than straight 30. PDZ doesn't hold a solid framerate, though...but PGR3 looks fantastic.

 

[VNZ]

I feels like a nitpick when its nearly impossible for me to tell if Call of Duty 2 runs at a higher framerate than something like Perfect Dark Zero. There must be something wrong with my eyes. PDZ actually looks better in motion IMO thanks to the motion blur.

That, I must say, is actually quite amazing. PDZ to me is unacceptably choppy. Except for highly cinematic games (say, a Silent Hill title) I will not buy a game that runs below the 60fps mark this upcoming gen.

Well, that practically holds true this gen also, which means my actions bears no significance and we're all doomed. Damn you! God damn you all to hell!

 

[racerx77]

Hey blim.. Full auto.. is it locked at 60 now? Because the demo I played was all over the map and hardly ever hit 60. That would be good news indeed if its been cleaned up that much.

 

[IJoel]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion with respect to this issue, whether it's behind an agenda or not. I just wish we wouldn't go through the whole 60vs30fps every single time a new title comes up. It is what it is. Some developers find anything under 60 fps unacceptable, while others don't.

Of course, the moment a new Gears of War video shows up and runs smoothly at 30 fps, we'll see cries of "OMG IT'S NOT 60 FPS!"

 

[SolidSnakex]

Have you been to GAF before?


Non 60fps racing game = Satan's bowel movement

No, its just that there isn't any excuse for it. When so many current gen racers, including DC racers, ran at 60fps. Going into next gen it just doesn't make sense to still have some running below that framerate. But hey, atleast we know there are some developers that won't allow that to happen.

 

[dark10x]

Of course, the moment a new Gears of War video shows up and runs smoothly at 30 fps, we'll see cries of "OMG IT'S NOT 60 FPS!"

I doubt it.

I think people will be plenty happy if the game actually manages to reach 30 fps with no tearing. Racers and fighters are where the biggest complaints will show up.

 

[shpankey]

No it really doesn't matter. But, this is the internet and it's filled with elitist pricks who need to bitch about SOMETHING.

I don't consider myself an elitist [maybe I am?] but for certain games it makes a big difference for me. Mostly sports games.... playing Madden in 30fps and trying the Live demo which is also 30fps, I can tell you that it makes a HUGE difference for me. Maybe because I'm so used to 60fps that going back is near unbearable. But that is the truth, I'm not just trying to bitch. Take it for what you will.

{p.s for some reason the 30fps in PGR3 doesn't bother me very much}

 

[Tain]

No, its just that there isn't any excuse for it. When so many current gen racers, including DC racers, ran at 60fps. Going into next gen it just doesn't make sense to still have some running below that framerate. But hey, atleast we know there are some developers that won't allow that to happen.

Why would more games this gen run at 60fps? It doesn't matter how powerful the hardware is. Developers want a smooth framerate or more detail. This will never, ever change unless we hit some point where we have more power than we can use.

As for people calling each other elitists because they prefer a smoother framerate... Shut up. Ninja Gaiden wouldn't be as good at half, as said, and it sure as hell is a bigger difference in terms of gameplay than more polygons, as said.

Would I have preferred MGS3 run at 60 with less detail? No. Do I want to see VF5 running at 30? No.

 

[borghe]

the general consensus among typical gamers are that 30 or 60 are fine, but drops under 30 suck.

the general consensus among gaming snobs who like to bitch for the sake of bitching is that 60 is required for everything.

a good game is a good game. framerate is irrelevant as long as it is solid and stable.

 

[Raiden]

I fucking hate this 30-60 fps bullshitting, if they told 95% of you shitters its a constant 60FPS and the game would run on a locked 35FPS none and i mean NOBODY would notice the difference and you would all shit on other games in the genre that are said to be 30 fps.


Also did you know that about 60% of your 60fps games are stable 45fps games? With 60 being the max.

 

[racerx77]

Also did you know that about 60% of your 60fps games are stable 45fps games? With 60 being the max.

Such as?

 

[Bebpo]

I fucking hate this 30-60 fps bullshitting, if they told 95% of you shitters its a constant 60FPS and the game would run on a locked 35FPS none and i mean NOBODY would notice the difference and you would all shit on other games in the genre that are said to be 30 fps.


Also did you know that about 60% of your 60fps games are stable 45fps games? With 60 being the max.

uhhmmm...riiiight. ^^;

Most people who talk about 30/60fps don't see it listed on the back of the box saying "OMG ITS 60FPS!", they see it with their eyes and realize it while playing. I mean 99.9% of reviews never even mention the framerate for a game. The 30/60fps thing comes up because many people have good eyesight and it's like night and day between the two.

 

[Tain]

I fucking hate this 30-60 fps bullshitting, if they told 95% of you shitters its a constant 60FPS and the game would run on a locked 35FPS none and i mean NOBODY would notice the difference and you would all shit on other games in the genre that are said to be 30 fps.

Uh, no. You're assuming way too much there. Open up Quake, limit the FPS to 30, 45, and 60. If you can't tell the difference, you're blind. It isn't some bizarre skill; it's very, very easy to notice once you're used to it.

 

[dark10x]

I fucking hate this 30-60 fps bullshitting, if they told 95% of you shitters its a constant 60FPS and the game would run on a locked 35FPS none and i mean NOBODY would notice the difference and you would all shit on other games in the genre that are said to be 30 fps.


Also did you know that about 60% of your 60fps games are stable 45fps games? With 60 being the max.

That's the stupidest shit I've read all day.

Especially the 45 fps part...something that isn't even f*cking possible (unless v-sync was disabled) on an NTSC TV.

You should be ashamed.

 

[Raiden]

Haha well i must be blind then, and you're all visual gods who can detect framerates.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Haha well i must be blind then, and you're all visual gods who can detect framerates.

You don't have to be any sort of visual god to tell the difference. Just go grab a 60fps racer and a 30fps and play one right afte rthe other. The upgrade or downgrade is very obvious.

 

[Raiden]

You don't have to be any sort of visual god to tell the difference. Just go grab a 60fps racer and a 30fps and play one right afte rthe other. The upgrade or downgrade is very obvious.

Ive had 2 monitors playing shooters, racers etc on different fps, and i cant tell the difference between 35-45-60.

And really Dark10 dude wtf? Not possible my ass, if you're claiming none of those so called 60fps games hit 40-50fps then thats the dumbest thing i ever read.

 

[Amir0x]

I think it's fine there are people who are content with 30fps, but uh... there's nothing elitist drama queen-ish about wanting (and demanding) 60fps. There is a significant difference. And for me it's important, regardless of the platform.

 

[ELS-01X]

Ive had 2 monitors playing shooters, racers etc on different fps, and i cant tell the difference between 35-45-60.

It's your eyes then.

And really Dark10 dude wtf? Not possible my ass, if you're claiming none of those so called 60fps games hit 40-50fps then thats the dumbest thing i ever read.

If you read past replies you'll see that when V-Sync is enabled every framerate below 60 fps will be locked at 30, not 45 or any other number (unless it's below 30 ).

 

[Demigod Mac]

Racers aren't the best for telling the difference. Too much driving straight ahead. (forward motion isn't as obvious pertaining to 30 vs 60 fps)

The real difference is: when the camera turns. THEN you notice.

Refer to first person shooters and action games.

 

[dark10x]

Ive had 2 monitors playing shooters, racers etc on different fps, and i cant tell the difference between 35-45-60.

And really Dark10 dude wtf? Not possible my ass, if you're claiming none of those so called 60fps games hit 40-50fps then thats the dumbest thing i ever read.

If v-sync is enabled it is 100% impossible for those framerates to hit anywhere between 30 and 60 fps. If it drops from 60, it's 30. That's that. Read up on technical facts before making such statements.

 

[momolicious]

this is ridiculous. The reason why people complain is because God of War can be 60 fps, GT4 can be 60 fps , dont you get it? games can look great or better than 30fps games and run at 60 fps, its the developers decision and dedication! Yall should actually encourage developers for 60 fps! push developers to get better !

 

[VNZ]

With tripple buffering, 45fps is indeed possible, even with v-sync. Just have the engine show every other frame for two consecutive scans/screen updates.

 

[Shompola]

this is ridiculous. The reason why people complain is because God of War can be 60 fps, GT4 can be 60 fps , dont you get it? games can look great or better than 30fps games and run at 60 fps, its the developers decision and dedication! Yall should actually encourage developers for 60 fps! push developers to get better !

And how would we do that? Refuse to buy games that are 30fps? Mass mail them? hehe

 

[borghe]

umm.. yeah.. buffering definitely allows for framerate changes, even with vsyncing.. you guys saying a framerate HAS to be 30 or 60 because of the NSTC frequency rate are just wrong. when BF2 on my PC drops to 38 FPS my refresh rate on my monitor isn't magically dropping from 100Hz. Same thing with TVs. Buffering allows for pretty much any framerate out of the framebuffer as long as it doesn't exceed the refresh rate of the tube.

 

[eso76]

When it's not ok is when it happens during non-playable cinematic cutscenes (Madden, Enchant Arm)

Oh no, that's unexcusable.
During gameplay we can sometimes accept the fact that, for example, the screen becomes saturated with a number of objects/effects considerably above the average devs had foreseen, but for cinematic realtime cutscenes devs have full control over what's being displayed on screen and can always avoid slowdowns or tearing in a number of ways.

With tripple buffering, 45fps is indeed possible, even with v-sync. Just have the engine show every other frame for two consecutive scans/screen updates.

Well, ok, but that's the theory. In real life an fps looking like it's moving at 60-30-30 fps would have you throw up your lunch in seconds.

 

[eso76]

umm.. yeah.. buffering definitely allows for framerate changes, even with vsyncing.. you guys saying a framerate HAS to be 30 or 60 because of the NSTC frequency rate are just wrong.

No, it's not wrong, it's just the way it is. Triple buffering basically only allowes the console/pc to store and menage previously rendered frames as the next one is being prepared (will think of a better way to say this later ) but it can in no way change the rate at which the tv / monitor brush 'paints' the screen, which remains 60 times a second for a ntsc tv no matter what. Having 45 fps on a ntsc tv would only mean having 60fps with 15 repeated frames which would result in some noticeable stuttering, much less desireable than a consistent 30fps.