3DS Uses DMP's PICA200 GPU

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arter_2 said:
That isnt anything ground breaking just a procedural texture they do use ram and bandwidth just not a significant amount that it matters. Computer animation in all its forms has used procedural textures since it was created. Math is a crazy thing when used correctly. :D
I know what procedural textures are. Thing is that part of Maestro is a parametric engine dedicated to procedural synthesis.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Eteric Rice said:
I wonder if western developers are interested in this handheld? The DS got virtually no western support, but this thing seems pretty meaty.

Would be nice to get some portable WRPGs.
Mass Effect 3DS please.
 

Gahiggidy

My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
wsippel said:
Thing is that part of Maestro is a parametric engine dedicated to procedural synthesis.
That Meastro is dedicated to synthesis of the engine part, a procedural parametric thing.
 
Gomu Gomu said:
I have absolutely no idea what's going on in this thread, but if the 3DS could produce a 3D image anywhere near the pic above, I will shit bricks. Looks soooo good in 3D <3
Well past that in everything but poly count.

And to be honest on a small a screen as the 3DS it won't matter as much.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Fafalada said:
They aren't, it's just how hw performs mipmap selection that makes aliasing on oblique surfaces prominent. PS2 had the same issue.
3DS media so far exhibits the same problems, which could suggest similar hw-implementation
Japanese IHV do not care about mip-mapped texels ;)?
 
some of you are really getting ridiculous. asking for some graphical features that even my netbook can't do, let alone a handheld system like Nintendo 3DS.

Nintendo 3DS games looks absolutely amazing, but I don't know how does it compare to last gen systems, such as the Gamecube for example.
 
2006
Spiegel said:
2008
karas said:
Anyone else notice that greatly improved poly performance is between these 2 revisions? It went from 15 million triangles a second @ 200MHz to 40 million triangles a second @ 100 MHz. Who knows what the performance will be of the 3DS's chip :D.

Also the power usage is insanely small. At 400 MHz the thing would only consume between 0.2 and 0.4 Watts. And that's how things were 2 years ago.
 
ShineALight said:
Launch titles and tech demos that are early in development? Lack of familiarity with the hardware? Maybe the 3D effect taxes the GPU a lot, too.
Sure, but that's quite a huge difference:




I know, it's not completely comparable and maybe the graphics will improve, but still. Seems a bit odd to me.
 
People who make demos have a different mindset than those that make games. Lots of procedural generation, generally know the hardware very well (and don't use a bunch of libraries and junk, they probably program in assembly or whatever is used these days vs bloated dev kits).
 
Sloane said:
Sure, but that's quite a huge difference:

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1452/mikage1qb7.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2qwpjig.jpg[IMG]

I know, it's not completely comparable and maybe the graphics will improve, but still. Seems a bit odd to me.[/QUOTE]
The hardware was designed to be scalable between non-portable and portable machines. Obviously the tech demo is running off a non portable build.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Sloane said:
Sure, but that's quite a huge difference:
GPU benchmark demos are generally made by the people who know the hardware better than anyone, and in best case hardware scenarios that can milk the GPU for everything its worth. They are very far from a realistic demonstration as to how good the GPU will perform in a real game environment.
 
Sloane said:
Sure, but that's quite a huge difference:




I know, it's not completely comparable and maybe the graphics will improve, but still. Seems a bit odd to me.
Well, something you have to consider about Nintendo's game design philosophy is they will only improve on something that needs improving. The edges of the track in that Mario Kart shot, for example, could look much nicer after 10+ years of making them, but for what? The 3DS is obviously capable, but Nintendo would likely argue that it has no impact on the enjoyment of the game (or sales).
 
EatChildren said:
GPU benchmark demos are generally made by the people who know the hardware better than anyone, and in best case hardware scenarios that can milk the GPU for everything its worth. They are very far from a realistic demonstration as to how good the GPU will perform in a real game environment.
I know, I know, I've seen tech-demos / benchmarks before. The difference just felt especially huge in this case but maybe the graphics will improve till release.
 
Nirolak said:
Isn't Mario Kart running at 120 fps so it can be 60 fps 3D?
I don't think thats how it works, I could be wrong though. I think the games have to be 60 fps in the first place for the 3D to work.

That brings up another point. Since most games will be 3D, does that mean they all HAVE to run at 60 fps?

Because that would be a dream come true.
 
Some of the (most of the.. well all of the) e3 demos didn't take full advantage of the system's capabilities. We'll see what kind of graphics it can actually put out when the final products are demoed, and then, of course, they will improve for a year or two as developers get even more familiar with the system.
 
Eteric Rice said:
I don't think thats how it works, I could be wrong though. I think the games have to be 60 fps in the first place for the 3D to work.

That brings up another point. Since most games will be 3D, does that mean they all HAVE to run at 60 fps?

Because that would be a dream come true.
Edit: Nevermind here.
 
Eteric Rice said:
I don't think thats how it works, I could be wrong though. I think the games have to be 60 fps in the first place for the 3D to work.

That brings up another point. Since most games will be 3D, does that mean they all HAVE to run at 60 fps?

Because that would be a dream come true.
Almost 100% sure this is incorrect.
 
Nirolak said:
Generally stereoscopic 3D games have to run at double their effective framerate.

Unless I'm not understanding how the 3DS does 3D correctly, any 60 fps games on the 3DS would play like 30 fps games and any 120 fps games would play like 60 fps games.
The way 3D works on the 3DS you won't have any framerate requirements. You do however lose half the horizontal resolution (hence the screen is 800x240 while the screenshots are 400x240).
 
Enkidu said:
The way 3D works on the 3DS you won't have any framerate requirements. You do however lose half the horizontal resolution (hence the screen is 800x240 while the screenshots are 400x240).
Oh, so the parallax barrier just blocks every other line of resolution for each eye?

That... makes a lot more sense than what I was thinking it did.
 
3DS's 3d is a little different from shutter and polarised glasses. The 2 images are thrown up in tandem as opposed to alternatively. That's why the actual resolution of the 3D screen is twice the effective resolution. This also means high refresh rates are not a necessity since there is no flicker.

That being said, each image your eye sees is technically a frame by itself, so one could consider that a game that runs at 60fps is actually running at 120fps, just 2 frames at a time.

edit: beaten.
 
Sloane said:
Sure, but that's quite a huge difference:




I know, it's not completely comparable and maybe the graphics will improve, but still. Seems a bit odd to me.
I think the MGS tech demo compares favorably with the above pic. 3DS is many ways appears to be a portable XBOX when you factor in the resolution.
 
Sloane said:
Sure, but that's quite a huge difference:




I know, it's not completely comparable and maybe the graphics will improve, but still. Seems a bit odd to me.
is um the top pic a pre render? and isnt this from a demo?
 
Kid Icarus in motion and scaled to the screen compares well to similar Xbox titles in my opinion. The flying segments could rival Panzer Dragoon Orta.

On a tangent, I've heard that the PSP "cheated" in its hardware by employing something not meant for portables--can someone elaborate on that?
 
Ignis Fatuus said:
Kid Icarus in motion and scaled to the screen compares well to similar Xbox titles in my opinion. The flying segments could rival Panzer Dragoon Orta.

On a tangent, I've heard that the PSP "cheated" in its hardware by employing something not meant for portables--can someone elaborate on that?
Panzer Dragoon 3DS please.
 
Comment by Jon Peddie:

Nintendo goes with DMP for S3D graphics engine

Today, DMP announced in Japan that Nintendo has adopted DMP PICA200 for the 3DS.

The new Nintendo 3DS is an amazing little device. The DS has already been a beloved machine attracting over 100 million users since 2004. Not many products (that I can think of, at least) can match that volume of enthusiasm or the customer base. And it’s self perpetuating because the installed base attracts developers which create new games which attracts new consumers – it is a perfect ecosystem.

Nintendo has experimented with S3D for years, starting with the Nintendo Virtual Boy monochrome system, and the company has tried out shutter glasses but lacked the computer horsepower and content to make it compelling. Nintendo has always been willing to try out new technologies, but the company seems aware of the dynamics that Kathleen Maher tries to spell out in her ongoing work on the Practicality Gap (http://www.jonpeddie.com/back-pages/comments/the_practicality_gap/). To sum it up in a phrase, Nintendo seems keenly aware that certain pieces of the puzzle must be in place before other pieces will fit.

The company has been investigating various semiconductor and IP suppliers since 2006 having looked at their partner ATI (Wii), ARM (DS), Imagination Technologies, Nvidia, and others. The decision to use DMP’s PICA200 design was made over a year ago and testing and development have been going on for some time; it’s not as easy as it may seem to license a core and integrate it into an SoC and get the costs (die size), power consumption (has to run forever on small batteries), and performance (clocks and memory management) balance. So as you learn more about this device if you wonder why it took them so long, keep all that in mind.

Founded in 2002, DMP, a graphics IP core supplier in Japan, has adopted a business strategy of focusing on the digital consumer market.
DMP first told me about the PICA architecture in early 2005 which was their first IP core based on Ultray architecture. The president and CEO of DMP, Tatsuo Yamamoto, told me then the Ultray allows real-time photo realistic rendering with physically correct lighting and shadowing such as soft shadow casting and position dependent environmental mapping.
Ultray is unique in that it uses hardware parametric engines for certain graphics features rather than shaders. With this approach, clouds, smoke, gas and other fuzzy objects can be shaded and rendered at an interactive rate.


At Siggraph 2005 (LA) DMP revealed in more detail some of their techniques for hair, skin, and gaseous shapes. Yamamoto said then that the Ultray could boast lower power consumption due to hardware pipelines, and smaller number of polygons to achieve high-quality graphics based on pixel-level shading (Phong, BRDF, etc.) vs. vertex-level and polygon subdivision.
So the bottom line is that amazing high-end graphics functions in a low-cost handheld device with stereovision is not only possible, it has arrived. The 3DS graphics has a lot of head room to be further exploited and we’re expecting to be really thrilled to see and play with what Nintendo and its partners have at launch.


You can read more about the PICA architecture here and subscribers can read more in various issues of JPR’s TechWatch. (Volume 5, Number 7, April 11, 2005, p10, Volume 5, Number 15, August 1, 2005, p12, Volume 6, Number 17, August 14, 2006, p19.)
http://jonpeddie.com/blogs/comments/nintendo-goes-with-dmp-for-s3d-graphics-engine/

I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about (he held the keynote for Siggraph Asia 2009 for example).
 
I personally don't think having aliasing on a screen that size would matter.

Sure on the Wii it does, but you'll be getting true resolution on the 3DS.

Aliasing only mainly matters if the source is being upscaled.
 
Sloane said:
Sure, but that's quite a huge difference:




I know, it's not completely comparable and maybe the graphics will improve, but still. Seems a bit odd to me.
Have you met Nintendo? How many games on the Wii come remotely close to pushing the system? We had Metroid Prime. But that doesn't really count since it's Retro. You could easily argue SMG is the first time the Japan division has made graphics a priority. I wouldn't read anything from the games Nintendo showed. 3rd party demos that were done in a couple months (kind of blind in a way) show it's got some very nice power behind it.
 
I drew up a little chart comparing the 3DS specs to the PSP and iPhone 3GS (thanks for finding the slide, Karas!).

It's hard to draw a conclusion right now, since the specs they list are for 100 MHz clock speed. They say that it draws up to 1 mW per 1 MHz clock speed, so at 400 MHz, it is only drawing 400 mW.

I quickly tested my PSP-1000 to see how much power it draws in a top 3D game (MGS Peace Walker should suffice) and it it drawing up to 2100 mW during a 3D scene with the lowest screen brightness. Sitting in the main menu, it draws 1500 mW, so that tells us that the combination of 3D and audio is drawing 600 mW. It isn't unreasonable to assume most of that is going to 3D (certainly up to 400 mW) which puts it right in line with a 400 Mhz Pico 200 chip in the 3DS.

It's hard to draw a conclusion from 100 Mhz specs though, since fill rate may not scale directly with clock speed (vertex rate should though, I think)
 
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