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Analysis 4k upscaling in Death Stranding: DLSS 2.0 (NV only) vs FidelityFX (cross-plat)

RedVIper

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  • . By limiting the model to only work per-game that just means it hasn't generalised strongly. DLSS 2.0 is able to use more data (because you can now feed input data from multiple games) and generalises stronger (because the same model clearly works across multiple games). It is strictly superior.

To be fair generalized models can yeld worse results than a model trained for one specific task.

But this shouldn't be an issue for most games.
 

rofif

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FidelityFX:


DLSS 2.0:


One is a sharpening filter and the other is actually upscaling. The end.
Yeah. Ars Technica it's full of shit. Cas is just an ugly typical sharpening whole dlss retrievers detail from ground truth 16k render.
Dlss does not add blur. It removes edges and break ups. The image is clean with no shader aliasing. It might look softer but it's much more stable
 
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RedVIper

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Playing games this upclose aint fun!

4k native vs DLSS2 vs FidelityX Death Stranding

NVIDIA´s cheating egen!!!1111 (LEFT:-DLSS, MIDDLE:NATIVE,RIGHT:FIDELITYFX)


In Death Stranding Fidelity delivers a much better image, very deep/far as well. DLSS2 blurs the crap out of the objects, assets in the background. Both have a similar performance.

guess it depends on the scene

Blurs? It looks just like native. If I want to apply a sharpness filter over DLSS I can. FidelityFX is super aliased (Because it's just running the game at a lower rez and applying a filter)
 
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psorcerer

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I'm hoping AMD comes up with an open source version of this technology where any developer who wants this in their game can have it. If not I believe more cross platform solutions will come out like FidelityFX where this technology will start becoming commonplace in most games.

 
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GreenAlien

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Take a look at this comparison at 1080p (please view fullscreen) https://imgsli.com/MTk0MTQ/0/1 the difference in image quality and detail is immediately very clear.
What is happening here with the green circle (HUD), the blue doorway light and the smoke on the right side? Is it just because different time of day/game progress or are the effects missing due to DLSS?
 

reezoo

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It's very clear that DLSS shits on CAS. It's objectively better.. and nothing you post is going to change that.

They aren't even comparable in what they do. But hey, if you're satisfied with a reshade level sharpening filter, then props to you 😂

One is designed to be watched from 1 or 2 feet (pc) other to be watched from 6 or 7 feet. One is designed with huge silicon Budget for which you have to pay sh*t ton. Other limited silicon Budget, a lot cheaper. If you are relying on DF analysis, there is fundamental flaw, people use PCs with much closer distances then TVs. There blow-ups of images to show artifacts are not as objective as it seems.
 
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00_Zer0

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By the way you can use something like FidelityFX on most games if you own a Sapphire RX 5700 XT Nitro Plus. It's called Trixxx boost. The software lowers your resolution by a certain percentage. Keeping it at 85% of the original resolution is the sweet spot, then you have the option of adding Radeon Image Sharpening to it. I use it all the time and it is great for what it does. It can be hit or miss on certain games. It certainly destroys DLSS 1.0, but DLSS 2.0 is in another league. The great thing about Trixxx Boost is it works on most games. The weakness of DLSS 2.0 is that it has to be programmed into each game making it a rare occasion when a game supports it.
 
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Ascend

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Where's Ascend Ascend at?


This is why Nvidia is just pounding it year after year. Hopefully AMD gives more competition this year.
Believe it or not, I actually have a life outside of NeoGAF and am not here 24/7 trying to pick on others. Shocking, I know.

As for the whole DLSS vs FidelityFX CAS thing...

Look. If you're going to look at grass, hair, light poles at miles away, thin power cables etc, DLSS will win, because, as has already been mentioned, it's an upgraded TAA, meaning, anything that is susceptible to shimmer will look better. Arstechnica also confirmed this. Obviously if that's all you're going to focus on, DLSS will look better. If you look at actual texture details, reflection details etc, FidelityFX CAS will be better, because it sharpens based on contrast, rather than TAA. ArsTechnica clearly pointed out where which one has the advantage.

So based on your statement that "this" is why nVidia is pounding it year after year, I have to ask... What do you mean by "this"? Blind fanboyism? The blind mindshare? The collection of people with high agreeableness that blindly repeat things after each other because it makes them feel good? Or are you referring to the lack of due diligence and falling for marketing?

The proper way to do this, is a blind test. So here we go... You tell me which is DLSS, which is FidelityFX.... And don't cheat;

Part 1:
A


or B


Part 2
A

or B


Part 3
A

orB
Good luck. You're going to need it. And everyone else that thinks that they can distinguish which is which is free to participate. And yes, DON'T CHEAT. I'm not going to tell you how you can cheat; that would only make it easier to do.

I will reveal the results once enough people have participated.
 
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I’ve been playing with this setting in DS and it doesn’t seem to make any difference to fps on my set up. Running a zen 2600 and rtx 2060 at 1440p.

what am I doing wrong. CPU bound?
 

rofif

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You are focusing on shot not even in their review.
And conveniently ignoring all shots that contradict your mantra.
(e.g. see Ascend Ascend 's post above)


Yes it does and you have been presented with evidence in this very thread.
That is how stability of the image looks imo. When I render at 8k on my 4k monitor, the image does not get much sharper. It gets more stable with less pixel crawling.
Even if DLSS is a bit blurrer, it's still a better solution. I just don't like ghosting it adds on some objects
 

RedVIper

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Believe it or not, I actually have a life outside of NeoGAF and am not here 24/7 trying to pick on others. Shocking, I know.

As for the whole DLSS vs FidelityFX CAS thing...

Look. If you're going to look at grass, hair, light poles at miles away, thin power cables etc, DLSS will win, because, as has already been mentioned, it's an upgraded TAA, meaning, anything that is susceptible to shimmer will look better. Arstechnica also confirmed this. Obviously if that's all you're going to focus on, DLSS will look better. If you look at actual texture details, reflection details etc, FidelityFX CAS will be better, because it sharpens based on contrast, rather than TAA. ArsTechnica clearly pointed out where which one has the advantage.

So based on your statement that "this" is why nVidia is pounding it year after year, I have to ask... What do you mean by "this"? Blind fanboyism? The blind mindshare? The collection of people with high agreeableness that blindly repeat things after each other because it makes them feel good? Or are you referring to the lack of due diligence and falling for marketing?

The proper way to do this, is a blind test. So here we go... You tell me which is DLSS, which is FidelityFX.... And don't cheat;

Part 1:
A


or B


Part 2
A

or B


Part 3
A

orB
Good luck. You're going to need it. And everyone else that thinks that they can distinguish which is which is free to participate. And yes, DON'T CHEAT. I'm not going to tell you how you can cheat; that would only make it easier to do.

I will reveal the results once enough people have participated.

What kinda of shitty screenshots are these lol
 
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Ascend

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What kinda of shitty screenshots are these lol
The limitations of JPEG. Can't do anything about that, since the source itself shared them in JPEG. But the differences are still quite notable.
 
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Comparing sharpening filters to AI Upscaling is Apples-to-Oranges. MS will probably lead the way for a non-proprietary solution with DirectML.

The thing about DLSS is that it's being continually refined while becoming increasingly versatile. Hopefully soon we'll get an option for dynamic DLSS, that could scale the base resolution to achieve a certain performance target.
 
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llien

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Comparing sharpening filters to AI Upscaling is Apples-to-Oranges.
Thank you for not reading OP or being so kind not to address the points.
AI Upscaling takes lower resolution image and produces higher resolution image.
"Sharepning filter" takes lower resolution image and produces... hold on, higher resolution image.

 

GreenAlien

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There's a reason why everyone is asking for games to support DLSS and nobody is asking for Fidelity FX CAS 😉
That's because every game supports FXX.. You just activate it in the driver. Done.
 
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Thank you for not reading OP or being so kind not to address the points.
AI Upscaling takes lower resolution image and produces higher resolution image.
"Sharepning filter" takes lower resolution image and produces... hold on, higher resolution image.
DLSS offers intelligent reconstruction of the image as opposed to sharpening filters. You can use sharpening filters on Nvidia cards, as well.

Sharpening filters do ok at a higher base resolution like 1440p, but the difference in what's being done to the image is plain to see at lower base resolutions.

Do you have a RTX card and first hand experience with DLSS 2.0 titles?
 

rofif

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Thank you for not reading OP or being so kind not to address the points.
AI Upscaling takes lower resolution image and produces higher resolution image.
"Sharepning filter" takes lower resolution image and produces... hold on, higher resolution image.

But that does not change the fact that CAS is just a reshade triangle sharpen filter which then outputs in other resolution while DLSS is comparing to ground truth data.
The fact that there is no longer any pixel swimming and shader swimming is my dream come true. I always hated that.
10:40 Maybe Death Stranding is some godlike unique example but it shows how good it looks when done right


Even as 4k 27" owner this is still present in most games. The shader aliasing and far distance geometry aliasing. If DLSS helps with that? count me in
 
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Black_Stride

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Believe it or not, I actually have a life outside of NeoGAF and am not here 24/7 trying to pick on others. Shocking, I know.

As for the whole DLSS vs FidelityFX CAS thing...

Look. If you're going to look at grass, hair, light poles at miles away, thin power cables etc, DLSS will win, because, as has already been mentioned, it's an upgraded TAA, meaning, anything that is susceptible to shimmer will look better. Arstechnica also confirmed this. Obviously if that's all you're going to focus on, DLSS will look better. If you look at actual texture details, reflection details etc, FidelityFX CAS will be better, because it sharpens based on contrast, rather than TAA. ArsTechnica clearly pointed out where which one has the advantage.

So based on your statement that "this" is why nVidia is pounding it year after year, I have to ask... What do you mean by "this"? Blind fanboyism? The blind mindshare? The collection of people with high agreeableness that blindly repeat things after each other because it makes them feel good? Or are you referring to the lack of due diligence and falling for marketing?

The proper way to do this, is a blind test. So here we go... You tell me which is DLSS, which is FidelityFX.... And don't cheat;

Part 1:
A


or B


Part 2
A

or B


Part 3
A

orB
Good luck. You're going to need it. And everyone else that thinks that they can distinguish which is which is free to participate. And yes, DON'T CHEAT. I'm not going to tell you how you can cheat; that would only make it easier to do.

I will reveal the results once enough people have participated.

So who is using DLSS to get to 1440x900 or trying to get to 719x500??

Literally all your screenshots are shit for judging visual fidelity.
Minimum your screenshots should be is 1440p.
 

Ascend

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So who is using DLSS to get to 1440x900 or trying to get to 719x500??

Literally all your screenshots are shit for judging visual fidelity.
Minimum your screenshots should be is 1440p.
So you can't tell the difference. Ok. Thanks.

I know the screenshots are not perfect, but there ARE quite clear differences despite the quality. Anyone using the quality of the images as a reason to avoid answering is simply afraid that they will be wrong. And I can understand why... No one would want to make a fool of themselves in public. Not that that is being avoided with replies such as these, but I digress...
 

Remij

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That's because every game supports FXX.. You just activate it in the driver. Done.
No. The driver implementation is Radeon Image Sharpening.. which does a terrible job, sharpens all elements of the game including the UI... usually causing the game to exhibit fringing and haloing. Nvidia has a driver wide image sharpening filter too...

FidelityFX CAS is implemented in the game engine by the developers, can employ different upscaling techniques and bypasses the game UI elements and is usually better suited to the content of the game based on the developers preference.

Yet nobody asks for games to support it... because it sucks. People are asking AMD to come up with a DLSS type solution. That says it all.
 

Mister Wolf

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I can see if you were coming correct and comparing DLSS to something worthy like Checkerboard Rendering or Temporal Upscaling but trying to compare it to some Reshade style sharpening filter?

 
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Black_Stride

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So you can't tell the difference. Ok. Thanks.

I know the screenshots are not perfect, but there ARE quite clear differences despite the quality. Anyone using the quality of the images as a reason to avoid answering is simply afraid that they will be wrong. And I can understand why... No one would want to make a fool of themselves in public. Not that that is being avoided with replies such as these, but I digress...

I literally didnt bother doing your test because the test material is already flawed.
 

Dampf

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What is happening here with the green circle (HUD), the blue doorway light and the smoke on the right side? Is it just because different time of day/game progress or are the effects missing due to DLSS?
Yes, it is because of the dynamic nature of the game. Remember these things move so its impossible to capture the same condition on two frames. They are definately there with DLSS as well.
 
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DJ Shalad

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Believe it or not, I actually have a life outside of NeoGAF and am not here 24/7 trying to pick on others. Shocking, I know.

As for the whole DLSS vs FidelityFX CAS thing...

Look. If you're going to look at grass, hair, light poles at miles away, thin power cables etc, DLSS will win, because, as has already been mentioned, it's an upgraded TAA, meaning, anything that is susceptible to shimmer will look better. Arstechnica also confirmed this. Obviously if that's all you're going to focus on, DLSS will look better. If you look at actual texture details, reflection details etc, FidelityFX CAS will be better, because it sharpens based on contrast, rather than TAA. ArsTechnica clearly pointed out where which one has the advantage.

So based on your statement that "this" is why nVidia is pounding it year after year, I have to ask... What do you mean by "this"? Blind fanboyism? The blind mindshare? The collection of people with high agreeableness that blindly repeat things after each other because it makes them feel good? Or are you referring to the lack of due diligence and falling for marketing?

The proper way to do this, is a blind test. So here we go... You tell me which is DLSS, which is FidelityFX.... And don't cheat;

Part 1:
A


or B


Part 2
A

or B


Part 3
A

orB
Good luck. You're going to need it. And everyone else that thinks that they can distinguish which is which is free to participate. And yes, DON'T CHEAT. I'm not going to tell you how you can cheat; that would only make it easier to do.

I will reveal the results once enough people have participated.

P1
A CAS B DLSS
P2
A DLSS B CAS
P3 no clue, too blurry.
A DLSS B CAS
 

llien

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DLSS offers intelligent reconstruction of the image....
Those are just buzzwords to impress people who do not understand what a neural network is, what D 1 was and what D 2 has become.

The worst part is people pretending that DLSS does not mess things up. It clearly does:

CAS



DLSS 2:

 
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rofif

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Those are just buzzwords to impress people who do not understand what a neural network is, what D 1 was and what D 2 has become.

The worst part is people pretending that DLSS does not mess things up. It clearly does:

CAS



DLSS 2:

that is a bad image but even in this example dlss looks better
 
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DJT123

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I have a Radeon card and, as well as it handles games, its CAS feature is quite ugly, rudimentary and non-performant compared to DLSS. No comparison.
 
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CAS looks better than I thought it would but DLSS (2.0 at least) gives such clean image quality that it it really no comparison at least outside of tiny, badly compressed JPEGs.
 

Ascend

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5120x2160 native + TAA


CAS

DLSS Q
Thanks. Technically these screenshots will inevitably give the advantage to DLSS over CAS, but I'll still try to do a quick close-up analysis.

Quick first observations;
The angle is a bit off, but the text on the bottom of the box on his back is slightly sharper in CAS than both native and DLSS. DLSS is still better than native.
The rock on the bottom right looks better on CAS, but at the same time, the poles are better defined with DLSS. What's interesting is that the better defined poles make it look as if the whole sky is sharper in that area, when in reality that is not the case.
 
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Dries

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I was always under the impression that DLSS was here to stay and AMD really had to step up their game to provide an answer to DLSS. Interesting read.
 

Dampf

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With the announcement of DMSR we can finally put these comparisons of FidelityFX cas upscaling to rest.
This will be AMD's DLSS equivalent.

Hope it will be good!
 

Rikkori

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Nvidia's marketing = undefeatable. That's why I don't bother with these discussions so much. It's like trying to tell PS fans the SSD isn't going to substitute for vram.

In reality DLSS is nowhere near native even with crappy TAA. Funny how you never hear DLSS nukes RT quality (happened even in W:YB) or all the various artifacts it suffers from in particular as it relates to particles. Magic AI upscaling my ass.

 

Mister Wolf

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Nvidia's marketing = undefeatable. That's why I don't bother with these discussions so much. It's like trying to tell PS fans the SSD isn't going to substitute for vram.

In reality DLSS is nowhere near native even with crappy TAA. Funny how you never hear DLSS nukes RT quality (happened even in W:YB) or all the various artifacts it suffers from in particular as it relates to particles. Magic AI upscaling my ass.


It doesn't have to be better than native, just better than whatever resolution thats producing the same framerate as using DLSS.
 

Dampf

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Nvidia's marketing = undefeatable. That's why I don't bother with these discussions so much. It's like trying to tell PS fans the SSD isn't going to substitute for vram.

In reality DLSS is nowhere near native even with crappy TAA. Funny how you never hear DLSS nukes RT quality (happened even in W:YB) or all the various artifacts it suffers from in particular as it relates to particles. Magic AI upscaling my ass.

DLSS needs the latest game ready drivers to look good.

Try DLSS balanced, it should exceed TAA quality.

DLSS off


DLSS Balanced

 
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