87 Deceased NFL Players Test Positive for Brain Disease (CTE)

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Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Jul 17, 2013
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#54
Forgot the "out of 91" in your title.

The most damning thing in this article is the bit about how the lineman are more vulnerable. How do you change the game so that they are better protected?
You would have the OL and DL all line up in two point stances (IE, standing just on their feet rather than in a three point stance); this would significantly drop the force involved in the line collisions on a play by play basis.
 
Sep 18, 2007
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#61
Dude, the logic in your argument sounds like "people who don't smoke get lung cancer, so smoking must not cause lung cancer.".
huh?

We are comparing a highly flawed study with.....nothing. And using that extremely flawed comparison to come to conclusions.

We have no baseline for CTE in an average Joe. The degree to which any activity increases the likelihood for negative outcomes is fundamentally important to the discussion around the safety of said activity.
 
Dec 11, 2012
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#62
No, I'm actually viewing this as a scientist, and not someone trying to sensationalize an issue to promote an agenda. Pretending that the NFL is ignoring this issue is blatantly false.
From the article

From 2003 to 2009, for example, the NFL’s now disbanded Mild Traumatic Brain Injury Committee concluded in a series of scientific papers that “no NFL player” had experienced chronic brain damage from repeat concussions, and that “Professional football players do not sustain frequent repetitive blows to the brain on a regular basis.”
NFL doctor says CTE is being “over-exaggerated”

Also don't forget you're the one who said "Solved problem" which means you didn't read the article and you don't understand what CTE actually is.
 
Jun 9, 2004
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#65
Not really relevant if we're testing the danger of playing football.
...which requires a baseline for comparison. 90% of football players suffering from CTE wouldn't be concerning if 90% of the general population also suffered from it, for example.

Baseball the superior sport confirmed
 
Dec 11, 2012
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#66
huh?

We are comparing a highly flawed study with.....nothing. And using that extremely flawed comparison to come to conclusions.

We have no baseline for CTE in an average Joe. The degree to which any activity increases the likelihood for negative outcomes is fundamentally important to the discussion around the safety of said activity.
Between 2008 and 2010, the bodies of twelve former professional American football players underwent postmortem evaluations for CTE, and all of them showed evidence of the disease, indicating a conservatively estimated prevalence rate of 3.7% among professional football players if no other players who died during this period had CTE.[28]

Bennet Omalu, a forensic pathologist and neuropathologist in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, found CTE in the brains of Mike Webster, Terry Long, Andre Waters, Justin Strzelczyk, and Tom McHale.[27] Omalu, in 2012 a medical examiner and associate adjunct professor in California, was a co-founder of BIRI[27] and reportedly in 2012 participated in the autopsy of Junior Seau.[26] Omalu's participation was halted during the autopsy after Junior Seau's son revoked previously provided oral permission after he received telephone calls from NFL management denouncing Omalu's professional ethics, qualifications, and motivation.
Just think about all the non-famous football players who lived their lives before CTE was known and died. You have decades of players systematically ignored, and we are now starting to get the brains of past NFL players which are showing a highly consistent pattern of brain damage that's main cause is from repetitive head to head contact, and a high percentage of the overall samples showing CTE development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy
 
Oct 26, 2007
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#67
From the article



NFL doctor says CTE is being “over-exaggerated”

Also don't forget you're the one who said "Solved problem" which means you didn't read the article and you don't understand what CTE actually is.
It's solved to the greatest degree in which it can be solved by the NFL. Like I said, people aren't going to stop playing football and the NFL isn't going to become flag football. Also, no one understands what CTE is or what actually causes it. That article and the study it references is committing one of the most basic sins of any scientific study: self-selection bias. It's conclusions are bullshit.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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#69
It's solved to the greatest degree in which it can be solved by the NFL. Like I said, people aren't going to stop playing football and the NFL isn't going to become flag football. Also, no one understands what CTE is or what actually causes it. That article and the study it references is committing one of the most basic sins of any scientific study: self-selection bias. It's conclusions are bullshit.
I for one trust the unbiased conclusions of this man with an NFL avatar.
 
Mar 3, 2011
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#70
It's solved to the greatest degree in which it can be solved by the NFL. Like I said, people aren't going to stop playing football and the NFL isn't going to become flag football. Also, no one understands what CTE is or what actually causes it. That article and the study it references is committing one of the most basic sins of any scientific study: self-selection bias. It's conclusions are bullshit.
You're like that fake actor doctor the NFL used in their commercials that tried to reassure worried moms.



Tackle football numbers are down across the country because of this.

Actual Science and Data said:
The nation's largest youth football program, Pop Warner, saw participation drop 9.5 percent between 2010-12, a sign that the concussion crisis that began in the NFL is having a dramatic impact at the lowest rungs of the sport.

According to data provided to "Outside the Lines," Pop Warner lost 23,612 players, thought to be the largest two-year decline since the organization began keeping statistics decades ago. Consistent annual growth led to a record 248,899 players participating in Pop Warner in 2010; that figure fell to 225,287 by the 2012 season.

Pop Warner officials said they believe several factors played a role in the decline, including the trend of youngsters focusing on one sport. But the organization's chief medical officer, Dr. Julian Bailes, cited concerns about head injuries as "the No. 1 cause."

"Unless we deal with these truths, we're not going to get past the dropping popularity of the sport and people dropping out of the sport," said Bailes, a former Pittsburgh Steelers neurosurgeon whose 10-year-old son, Clint, plays Pop Warner outside Chicago. "We need to get it right."
 
Dec 11, 2012
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#72
It's solved to the greatest degree in which it can be solved by the NFL. Like I said, people aren't going to stop playing football and the NFL isn't going to become flag football. Also, no one understands what CTE is or what actually causes it. That article and the study it references is committing one of the most basic sins of any scientific study: self-selection bias. It's conclusions are bullshit.
Actually we do have a general understanding of what causes CTE and what it is, the issue is getting more samples and increasing the amount of positive case numbers to show how large the issue is.

You sound like a child and far from an actual scientist in defending the NFL. You're moving the goalpost every time you open your mouth to support a league that makes billions and actively cover ups their involvement and responsibility for the suffrage of hundreds, if not thousands of players who knew nothing about degenerative brain injuries up until extremely recently.
 
Sep 18, 2007
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#74
Just think about all the non-famous football players who lived their lives before CTE was known and died. You have decades of players systematically ignored, and we are now starting to get the brains of past NFL players which are showing a highly consistent pattern of brain damage that's main cause is from repetitive head to head contact, and a high percentage of the overall samples showing CTE development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy
This is the same selection bias, is my point. All of those players asked to have their brains studied because they felt there was something wrong.

I'm not a goon like Crisco trying to defend the NFL or say this is a non-issue, I just think we have to come up with a better method of studying it before we start drawing any definitive conclusions.
 
Sep 26, 2012
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#75
It's only nonexistent because no one test for it as it can only be tested for posthumously.
You do realize that this isn't some new concept, right? There is a lot to still learn about it and we don't have exact numbers or rates, but the fact that repetitive trauma to the brain is involved in causing it is one of the things that seems pretty clear. Which isn't to say such trauma by itself is sufficient, that's not clear, but only that it appears to be necessary.
 
Sep 18, 2007
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#76
You do realize that this isn't some new concept, right? There is a lot to still learn about it and we don't have exact numbers or rates, but the fact that repetitive trauma to the brain is involved in causing it is one of the things that seems pretty clear. Which isn't to say such trauma by itself is sufficient, that's not clear, but only that it appears to be necessary.
I'm speaking to the methodology of the study, not the disease.
 

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
Jun 6, 2004
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#77
Are you saying that was a "one time thing" for both those players?


No, I'm saying that by looking at those sorts of big hits we're missing the actual problem at hand. Fifty to eighty times a game, offensive linemen and defensive linemen run into each other from only inches apart. That smacking together repeatedly (in addition to doing it every day at practice) is what leads to problems like this. The kind of impact that you will never see focused on a highlight video or a gif. The normal course of a football game leads to brain damage with long-term effects for a large number of players. You can eliminate helmet to helmet hits, launching tackles, blind blocks, and every other kind of extraordinary violence and you'll still be left with a game that breaks people's brains. That's the knowledge that people should have available to them. Nothing has to go wrong for football to ruin lives.

If you want to say that people should be allowed to take that risk, that's a different discussion. I'm just saying that people should be truly informed about what the risks are, and the NFL has been doing their best to mislead players and fans for decades.
 

DottyHead

Neo Member
Apr 23, 2015
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#78
The standard of tackling must also be looked at because not alot of players use there arms in the tackle. There is alot of head first tackling and it can't be good for both people involved.
 
Sep 26, 2012
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#79
I'm speaking to the methodology of the study, not the disease.
Unfortunately, until they can figure out a proper way to conclusively diagnosis it before death it's going to be hard to study many facets of it. This is an admitted shortcoming in what we know about it and I feel that what studies are doing now is about as much as they can given what we know. They know there are weaknesses in the methodology but it's what they have to work with.
 
Sep 18, 2007
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#81
Unfortunately, until they can figure out a proper way to conclusively diagnosis it before death it's going to be hard to study many facets of it. This is an admitted shortcoming in what we know about it and I feel that what studies are doing now is about as much as they can given what we know. They know there are weaknesses in the methodology but it's what they have to work with.
The fact that the study is fundamentally flawed and completely non-actionable renders it essentially useless as a measure of how dangerous football is.

I'm sure they learned tons of other super useful stuff though, so I'm not saying it wasn't worthwhile.
 
Oct 26, 2007
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#82
Actually we do have a general understanding of what causes CTE and what it is, the issue is getting more samples and increasing the amount of positive case numbers to show how large the issue is.

You sound like a child and far from an actual scientist in defending the NFL. You're moving the goalpost every time you open your mouth to support a league that makes billions and actively cover ups their involvement and responsibility for the suffrage of hundreds, if not thousands of players who knew nothing about degenerative brain injuries up until extremely recently.
No, you're the one who sounds like someone with an ax to grind. CTE isn't a new thing, we've known about it for nearly a century, when it was associated primarily with boxing. Getting new samples from people who suspect they have it doesn't promote our scientific understanding of what causes it. It does however, promote the agenda of people who want to crucify the NFL.

The NFL has a concussion protocol, spent millions on research to improve equipment while collaborating with the military, and implemented rule changes which reduce the number of collisions per game. What have hockey, UFC, and NASCAR done? What has society at large done? Pinning CTE on one league from one sport does nothing to help diagnose it or limit it's impact.
 
Apr 10, 2008
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#84
Seems pretty logical to me that repeated blows to your head over decades will fuck up your brain. Not surprising in the slightest to see studies showing exactly that. The League of Denial is pretty damning towards the NFL as well.

Football will slowly decline in popularity once there is better education on the risks of putting your kids football. NFL doing next to nothing is laughable as well. Keeping your head in the sand will only work for so long; good luck trying to grow your sport over the next century.
 
Mar 3, 2011
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#86
No, you're the one who sounds like someone with an ax to grind. CTE isn't a new thing, we've known about it for nearly a century, when it was associated primarily with boxing. Getting new samples from people who suspect they have it doesn't promote our scientific understanding of what causes it. It does however, promote the agenda of people who want to crucify the NFL.

The NFL has a concussion protocol, spent millions on research to improve equipment while collaborating with the military, and implemented rule changes which reduce the number of collisions per game. What have hockey, UFC, and NASCAR done? What has society at large done? Pinning CTE on one league from one sport does nothing to help diagnose it or limit it's impact.
Can you respond to ONE of the statistics I've posted?
 
Jun 22, 2012
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#87
Forty percent of those who tested positive were the offensive and defensive linemen who come into contact with one another on every play of a game, according to numbers shared by the brain bank with FRONTLINE. That finding supports past research suggesting that it’s the repeat, more minor head trauma that occurs regularly in football that may pose the greatest risk to players, as opposed to just the sometimes violent collisions that cause concussions.
You know, sometimes I wonder if those head slaps their own teammates give them after a player makes a big play contribute much. After reading the quoted above, I'm going to assume yes.

You see a touchdown, or interception or something like that and the player gets swarmed by their own teammates and their head becomes a punching bag to them or you always see them headbutt each other as well.

I never understood why they do that, gives me a headache just watching them do that. Seriously, what happened to the good ole high five or butt slap?
 
Sep 8, 2010
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#91
No, you're the one who sounds like someone with an ax to grind. CTE isn't a new thing, we've known about it for nearly a century, when it was associated primarily with boxing. Getting new samples from people who suspect they have it doesn't promote our scientific understanding of what causes it. It does however, promote the agenda of people who want to crucify the NFL.
oh no what ever will the billion dollar business do?!!!?!??!?!?

im so glad you're here to defend them. they need all the help they can get.
 
Aug 31, 2005
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#92
For non-athletes, non-military I believe it's almost nonexistent.
It's already hard enough for a non-athlete to get diagnosed with post concussive syndromes when they have them, and I imagine that if you aren't aware of CTE you're not going to ask to be tested for it after you died.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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#95
This is exactly why helmets are improving. The whole Heads Up initiative in grade school/high school football is a good thing. You can't eliminate the head injuries completely, all you can do is educate and improve the equipment.
 
May 4, 2007
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#97
A decent % of these guys likely had significant brain damage before they ever played an NFL down. Juvenile brains are far more susceptible to brain damage than any other time in life (apart from early childhood, obviously). So i'd like to see some fingers pointed at hs and college programs, who are crippling their students (!) for big bucks and not paying them a dime. They've found cte in guys who never went pro...

That said, the NFL buried this for way too long to get a free pass. The status quo of the league putting its figurative hands on its hips needs to stop. It's time we saw some massive money poured into research on safer equipment.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
Aug 25, 2014
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#98
This situation helps me relate to all the gun fetishists who freak out at the mention of gun control. I can't defend this but I love football so I know it'll be out of my mind by the time the weekend comes around.
 
Dec 17, 2006
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The fact that the study is fundamentally flawed and completely non-actionable renders it essentially useless as a measure of how dangerous football is.

I'm sure they learned tons of other super useful stuff though, so I'm not saying it wasn't worthwhile.
I mean, there's nothing inherently "flawed" about this study. The goals are pretty clear, they are testing for CTE in "165 individuals who, before their deaths, played football either professionally, semi-professionally, in college or in high school," and 79% of those football players had CTE.

The only thing that is flawed is the sweeping condemnation of football because of this study and others like it. As others have already said, it's a condition that we still know little about and can't even clinically diagnose it. It's obvious that playing football long-term will fuck your shit up, though, and the more these studies garner attention the more the worst league in professional sports will be forced to keep paying attention to it.
 
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