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[The ๖ۜBronx]

There has been a lot of discussion about Destiny 2, especially with regard to the quality of the end-game and a lot of good points have been made, however Slayerage (one of the top players of the game for PvE) recently posted a very well thought out post on Reddit as to his grievances with the game and I think it does a brilliant job of summarizing and highlight the issues.

This might be one of the most thoughtful, and well written, breakdowns of a games issues I've ever read, and wanted to share it as I believe it really hits home and has a lot of points to discuss as to people's approach to loot games, over and above the people still playing the game.

I'd like to paste the whole thing as it is genuinely a very insightful look at the game, but it is pretty long so if you're interested I highly recommend reading the original, but for the sake of discussion I've put some of the more key points below.

He does go on to offer proposed solutions that I feel are also well considered, but the issues raised are probably the more pertinent points for discussion here.

- -

On Power Level...

Power level is not a good thing at all. Light level was sloppy in Destiny 1, and they preserved problems from Destiny 1 while introducing new ones.

Destiny 1 light levels made it possible to under-level but not to over-level, which makes it feel like your character never gets more powerful. You get "less weak," but never "stronger." This is also true in Destiny 2. Power level isn't used as a requirement for equipping new weaponry, so gear strength and power level also aren't related. You also don't gain more health or deal more damage. Power level does nothing.

And on top of this, you now can level to 305 through patrolling and just doing public events. Being max level in Destiny 1 during most of its expansions meant you had completed a good amount of the endgame content - but now, "endgame" content is trivialized by design - it's not an important part of the road to the strongest character. High level content is far less "worthwhile" as a result.

On top of that issue, you don't need 305 for anything. As of next Tuesday, level 300 will be useful for the prestige raid and the prestige nightfall. We already know that the Prestigious Nightfall does not give you unique loot (the aura does not count, sorry), and the prestigious raid is looking to follow a relatively similar suit.

So to summarize, you can get 305 from anything, you don't need it for anything, and it doesn't do anything. It's too easy to level, yet simultaneously not worth it to even try anyway. It's clumsily tacked on to the game.

And that is a problem.

The one thing that power level manages to do is spin a narrative that there's more to do after level 20. The mere existence of power level suggests that an endgame exists in which getting your power to the maximum level is valuable. Why would power level exist if you didn't need it for something? Why is it the most prominently displayed number on your emblem?

On Loot...

When you get to the recommendation for adding random rolls back in, please make sure you read the later section to understand how he suggests it should be implemented.

Good god, I want to cry for the loot. The loot pool was made shallow to the extent of maybe 100 legendary guns when Destiny 1 could have literally 182,000 variants of the same gun. This would probably be excusable if it felt like each gun was a work of art, but it feels like a handful of drops from Destiny 1 were taken at random and chosen to be the "fixed" Destiny 2 roll.

[...]

Why is Nameless Midnight seen as top tier by sole virtue of having explosive rounds, and more importantly, why is loot so wimpy that seeing Nameless Midnight that way isn't wrong??

Basically, we got a lot of mediocre rolls as our fixed versions of guns with no chance at anything better. The loot in Destiny 2 feels watered down so much that I'm starting to think it might just be water.

This is also a massive hit to replay value - yesterday I did my milestones for the week, dismantled the repeat gear I got from that, turned in the tokens I got from doing them, dismantled the repeat gear I got from that, then turned in the gunsmith parts I got from all that and dismantled the repeats I got from that. At the end of the day, I had managed to start back at square 1 - my factions didn't rank up (since that's not a thing anymore), and my gear wasn't better (since after about 200 hours I've gotten everything at least once).

Amassing loot and dismantling it felt like I was just making a mess in my inventory for the satisfaction of cleaning it up. I have not once in my years of experience with Destiny had such a strong feeling that I had wasted my time.

[...]

The worst part of it though is that there is absolutely 0 hope for better gear. There's no reason to check your second Nameless Midnight for outlaw, no chance of your Blue Shift having cluster bombs, not the remotest possibility that your Dire Promise will get the range perk it so desperately needs. Hope is gone from the loot-earning process, and when hope walks out the door, excitement follows out right behind it.

On End-Game...

Destiny 2 seems to have a horrible identity crisis that has tarnished the RPG/MMOlike elements and, honestly, ruined them. I like the game and I'm glad I played it, but those aspects of my enjoyment in Destiny 1 were not once reignited during Destiny 2. Power level was a huge tease that set expectations in a place to deliver disappointment.

Replayability being crippled into nothingness has utterly destroyed the social aspect of the game for me. My friends do not play and do not want to play anymore. It is very sad to see.

There is no doubt that the game has plenty of playability, and it's fun to play, but it cannot be treated as a hobby in its current state. I can't blame my friends for not playing, because the game feels intended to be beaten and moved on from. Bear in mind, I am one of those guys that play too much and so are my friends. This game does not work for that attitude at all, unfortunately for us.

Balance has taken a lot of the fun out of loot and the crucible without adding anything meaningful. Those who like it more this way are almost certainly rivaled by numbers who don't, because there's no question that the change is a matter of taste purely - but having less cool pve weapons is doubtlessly less fun. Therefore, balance has hurt the game more than it helps in my opinion.

I wish they'd make a titan skating exotic.

People in a similar position to mine - on any level, and I am not the only person who has gotten more than 100 hours in these 5 weeks - want reason to keep playing the game, but will find none.

It leaves a lot to be desired.

On Random Rolls & Reforging (rerolling)...

This is part of a solution offered but I feel it also does a good job of highlighting the flaws in the current system.

Stop making balance the central focus of the game. Nobody is going to look back in 8 years and say "Destiny 2 was so balanced, it was amazing," but people very well might think back on the rocket launcher that exploded into a wolf-pack of tiny homing rockets and obliterated nearly everything in the game.

Reintroduce randomized rolls but control for it better. Create a list of perks and their values from weak, ok, strong, and incredible. Give them appropriate rarities (25%,50%,20%,5% as an example) and then find an appropriate pace to reduce luck levels as playtime increases so you have some level of diminishing returns. Reward players in a way that respects their dedication, but doesn't put them on a totally different level.

Reintroduce reforging alongside random perks such that you combine two weapons into one, choosing which perks from both you want and scrapping the rest, so god rolls are possible to work towards. Critically here, godrolls would become unique to the individual and feel like a progressive endeavor rather than a slot machine. Someone could log on and work on making their perfect Mannanan SR4. This system would make repeat drops of many kinds valuable, and players would finally have some customization that isn't purely cosmetic.

- -

As a large fan of the Destiny franchise (1,100 hours of the first game, 112 currently in the second), I feel like his post is the most insightful review of the game there has been to date, and one that I find hard to disagree with any point of, despite having enjoyed the game up until this point.

Felt like it was a good read and wanted to share, as it's actually put a light on a number of issues I'd felt but not been able to see clearly.

This is much more than just the 1% demanding change for their needs (as I've seen it dismissed as), and attacks some fundamental issues to the game. It's by and large the most honest look at the game I've read.


---

Edit: In the thread I remembered one of the other key things that has had one of the largest affects on my enjoyment of D2, but one I've not seen raised often. Wouldn't mind others thoughts on it as well:

I'm at 112 hours and haven't once seen an exotic on the ground. Just in the UI as an icon. Killing a boss and seeing a shiny gold engram fly out of it was a massive highlight of gameplay sought throughout the first game. The separation between activity and reward (as in, kill boss, wait, open chest - or do mission, go to tower, turn in tokens, get reward) has probably been the most detrimental thing in the game for me.

It just doesn't feel exciting to get loot, and when you do it's nothing exciting.

 

[JWiLL]

...Yep. Pretty much.

Looks like the honeymoon period is over. I had a lot of these criticisms in the first week (namely - lack of interesting loot) but understandably people didn't want to hear it then.

Bungie sells/markets Destiny as a loot based game. Not having interesting loot to play for is by far it's biggest flaw. If there were more unique weapons/armor/mods and armor sets and bonuses, etc to play for you'd be able to forgive a lot of other shortcomings the game has.

I played a wee bit of Destiny 1: http://destinytracker.com/destiny/overview/ps/JWiLL552

I don't really have much of a desire to play D2 as is, though I'll check out the PC version just for the shiny new feel.

 

[sjay1994]

Yeah.

It feels like there is no point to do anything anymore in D2.

Once you hit 305, which can be obtained by anything... doing end game content just makes it a bit faster.

Whats the point of doing a prestige nightfall compared to a normal nightfall?

 

[Gator86]

I hit 305 on 3 characters and immediately moved the game to my "Finished Games" folder. I'll probably check out the DLC if it gets good reviews. They collapsed so much of the game, because they couldn't balance it, without adding anything replayable to cushion the blow.

 

[LordGorchnik]

I think these past couple of days have turned me off from picking up Destiny 2 on PC at launch. Will wait for a GOTY-like edition or after the first 1-2 DLCs come out and then see what state it is in.

 

[RoboPlato]

Disagree with most of the arguments about the loot. The change to having set rolls was a massive improvement to the game and actually makes drops fun. So many times in Destiny 1 I would get a weapon that many had been raving about, only to have a bad set of rolls. It was more discouraging than anything. Felt like you were chasing the random perks more than the actual weapons.

I got Palindrome many times in D1 with garbage rolls, despite everyone saying it was incredible. Seeing that weapon drop was no longer exciting. However in D2, Better Devils finally dropped for me the other night and I was ecstatic. I knew it would be the weapon I wanted, not an unfun gun that happened to have the same look and name.

I also enjoy the endgame set up. I like that I don’t feel chained to D2 in order to build up my character but it also keeps bringing me back weekly because the game is so fun and feels like you can actually make good progress in bursts as opposed to the often discouraging structure of D1.

However I do agree that balance and the competitive nature of PvP is a worse focus since the game is so inherently imblananced.

 

[Lanrutcon]

I'm liking some of what I'm hearing though. As someone who spent a lot of time on Diablo 3, there's nothing as fucked up as finally getting that precise legendary you need for your build...and watching it have shit rolls.

I am all for static stats on unique gear.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Good god, I want to cry for the loot. The loot pool was made shallow to the extent of maybe 100 legendary guns when Destiny 1 could have literally 182,000 variants of the same gun.

I have a hard time taking a critique of the game seriously if it's asking for randomized RNG rolls to put put back in the game.

No.

If you're upset about the number of guns or the perks on those guns, we should tell Bungie we want more weapons with better perks.

Saying Destiny 1 "could have literally 182,000 variants of the same gun" is such nonsense when most people would be trying to get a specific "God roll." It's the same weapon with a ton of crappy rolls and some great ones. That isn't additional content. It isn't a "reason" to keep playing. It's manufactured grind to keep people playing.

I want better guns and armor in Destiny 2. I want it to look cooler (because a lot of the legendary sets are lame) and I want them to have better perks. Special perks on Raid armor should come back, for example.

But I never want random RNG rolls again.

Destiny 2 has a number of issues. But I can't stand people who already have 100+ hours complaining about content. That's just not what the game is. Put it down. Go play something else. Iron Banner is this week, probably a Halloween event at the end of the month.

Then take November off. Go play Mario Odyssey or Wolfenstein. Then come back in December for the expansion.

 

[Tagyhag]

And on top of this, you now can level to 305 through patrolling and just doing public events. Being max level in Destiny 1 during most of its expansions meant you had completed a good amount of the endgame content - but now, "endgame" content is trivialized by design - it's not an important part of the road to the strongest character. High level content is far less "worthwhile" as a result.

As someone who wouldn't do the raids, much less grind them over and over again because they have other games to play, I see this is a GOOD thing.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

People dismissing the critique due to the mention of random rolls in the loot section seem to be ignoring his suggestion for how that should be implemented. He's not suggesting he wants D1 rolls back, and his suggested implementation would give players more means to work towards a roll you want and for that to feel like an accomplishment over just a random drop.

 

[KillLaCam]

Yeah I agree with everything, especially the balance comment. They're hurting the fun of the game for balance. D1 was super unbalanced for the majority of its lifespan and I still had more fun with it than other shooters this gen.

 

[theclosetfan]

Just want to throw in the perspective of a casual Destiny 2 player who plays a few nights a week. I can usually get my friends all together to play once a week, at most.

The game is very fun, and I enjoy that I don't have to do end game content to get to 305. Even so, I'm not going to get to 305 anytime soon--maybe never. Not sure I'll ever have the time or inclination to do the raid.

I like that things are simpler. I like the balance. I like the more open world. I even like Crucible. None of this top player, end-game stuff means anything to me. This stuff always reads like evidence that the writer should move on and play different games, because they've hit an enjoyment wall. That's fine. That's normal.

Every time I play now, I make a little progress. That feels good. If I do hit the cap, it won't really change my play behavior much--I'll just be ready for Nightfalls when my friends are.

 

[Sinatar]

I think these past couple of days have turned me off from picking up Destiny 2 on PC at launch. Will wait for a GOTY-like edition or after the first 1-2 DLCs come out and then see what state it is in.

Yea the delay ended up being a boon. People have had enough time with the game to give honest opinions once the honeymoon period is over.

Saved me $60.

 

[Marvel]

I've hit 304 and cba to play. Not enough loot and strikes for me personally.

Not super into the new Raid too.

 

[Slammin_Hammon]

I agree with pretty much all of that and just yesterday I was making the same argument about the loot, which as it stands is terrible.

 

[BigEmil]

So glad I didn't fall for the hype and massive marketing etc to buy Destiny 2

Got plenty of other games on the horizon I'll buy Destiny 2 in few years in a complete edition maybe

 

[Strakt]

I'm still waiting for it to come out

2 more weeks!

I have a feeling seasons will be big as they are only announcing it 4 days before PC release but thats just an assumption

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

I like that things are simpler. I like the balance. I like the more open world. I even like Crucible. None of this top player, end-game stuff means anything to me. This stuff always reads like evidence that the writer should move on and play different games, because they've hit an enjoyment wall. That's fine. That's normal.

Every time I play now, I make a little progress. That feels good. If I do hit the cap, it won't really change my play behavior much--I'll just be ready for Nightfalls when my friends are.

I feel like it's much easier to reach higher light in Destiny 2 but there's also a lot less to do when you're there. It's certainly not an issue felt only by the top 1% of players, and both of those factors exacerbate the issue.

 

[TripleBee]

I'm getting the pc version - and from watching streams, I think i''m fine with the changes. It seems like the correct amount of content for me to actually be able to complete it, rather then just seeing the cool stuff that people have 1000s of hours to spend have.

Also helps that the PC version will get DLC after 6 weeks.

Though I can see why hardcore players, and especially streamers, would have an issue.

 

[kiguel182]

Being able to stop playing the game isn't a bad thing.

You play until you are satisfied and then come back when new content is released.

 

[ZeoVGM]

People dismissing the critique due to the mention of random rolls in the loot section seem to be ignoring his suggestion for how that should be implemented. He's not suggesting he wants D1 rolls back, and his suggested implementation would give players more means to work towards a roll you want and for that to feel like an accomplishment over just a random drop.

I read that. Still don't like it. I don't want randomized rolls at all. No reason for it. If that makes it feel as if there's not enough different loot, then they should add more (and cooler) loot.

As someone who wouldn't do the raids, much less grind them over and over again because they have other games to play, I see this is a GOOD thing.

Yeah, it's absolutely a good thing. You should not have to grind end game content to reach max light. That's nonsense.

You should be able to reach max light through other methods and then use that power to take on the end game content -- and in return, get cool weapons and armor.

Which, by the way, is how Destiny 1 has been for a long time. So it's weird to me to complain about that now, in Destiny 2. Year 1 Destiny will absolutely never be back.

 

[LordofPwn]

Yeah.

It feels like there is no point to do anything anymore in D2.

Once you hit 305, which can be obtained by anything... doing end game content just makes it a bit faster.

Whats the point of doing a prestige nightfall compared to a normal nightfall?

Prestige drops a powerful engram, and you get the aura which is purely cosmetic and no one ever really notices. For some you also get a trophy. I only do them if it helps someone get their first.

the only interesting loot game now is getting 305 with all blues.

D2 is some of the most fun I've had online playing in a group. While the end game grind isn't extensive at all it is nice to feel like i have time to play other games.

Also Slayerage is a God the person on top of the mountain for PVE stuff in destiny.

And while you should cater to the fans that are playing the game it does wonders if you cater to those that can bring others in, especially when most of the active online community seems to be in agreement on a majority of these things.

 

[RichiRamjag]

People dismissing the critique due to the mention of random rolls in the loot section seem to be ignoring his suggestion for how that should be implemented. He's not suggesting he wants D1 rolls back, and his suggested implementation would give players more means to work towards a roll you want and for that to feel like an accomplishment over just a random drop.

This is how I took it.

 

[HStallion]

I have a hard time taking a critique of the game seriously if it's asking for randomized RNG rolls to put put back in the game.

No.

If you're upset about the number of guns or the perks on those guns, we should tell Bungie we want more weapons with better perks.

Saying Destiny 1 "could have literally 182,000 variants of the same gun" is such nonsense when most people would be trying to get a specific "God roll." It's the same weapon with a ton of crappy rolls and some great ones. That isn't additional content. It isn't a "reason" to keep playing. It's manufactured grind to keep people playing.

I want better guns and armor in Destiny 2. I want it to look cooler (because a lot of the legendary sets are lame) and I want them to have better perks. Special perks on Raid armor should come back, for example.

But I never want random RNG rolls again.

Destiny 2 has a number of issues. But I can't stand people who already have 100+ hours complaining about content. That's just not what the game is. Put it down. Go play something else. Iron Banner is this week, probably a Halloween event at the end of the month.

Then take November off. Go play Mario Odyssey or Wolfenstein. Then come back in December for the expansion.

The "go play something else" comment seems to side step the entire point of the thread

 

[JWiLL]

Disagree with most of the arguments about the loot. The change to having set rolls was a massive improvement to the game and actually makes drops fun. So many times in Destiny 1 I would get a weapon that many had been raving about, only to have a bad set of rolls. It was more discouraging than anything. Felt like you were chasing the random perks more than the actual weapons.

I got Palindrome many times in D1 with garbage rolls, despite everyone saying it was incredible. Seeing that weapon drop was no longer exciting. However in D2, Better Devils finally dropped for me the other night and I was ecstatic. I knew it would be the weapon I wanted, not an unfun gun that happened to have the same look and name..

I don't understand this though - how is it more fun getting a loot drop when you know exactly what it's going to be? That Nameless Midnight is always going to be the exact same Nameless Midnight. It takes all the anticipation out of loot drops.

This might work if the game had 500 weapons...but it doesn't. It has the same limited number of weapons the first game had, but now they're all exactly the same. Where's the fun in that?

His suggestions to create more variation here is reasonable, he's not saying bring back the exact same RNG drops as D1.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

Though I can see why hardcore players, and especially streamers, would have an issue.

Getting to 300+ light (where the issues are felt most) is not something exclusive to the 1000+ hours players or streamers. It's something you will hit very easily by just doing the normal checklist each week, and past that there is no real end-game.

The issue isn't that the end-game isn't enough to sink hundreds of hours into, it's that there isn't an end game. You get to the top and... well there's nothing to do that you haven't already done numerous times to get there.

You're doing the same things, to reach higher light, for no reason.

 

[KodaRuss]

I agree with a lot of what he said.

The Loot is what is killing it for me the most. Nothing is really that exciting anymore. Armor has no perks unless it is an exotic and the legendary guns all kinda lack personality now.

There just isnt anything to strive for at the moment it seems. Xur has sold the best exotics right out of the gate and many already got Coldheart from preordering.

There is no Fatebringer, Vex Mythocast or Gallerjhorn to strive for any more.

 

[Pastry]

I was just kind of surprised by how boring the loot in D2 was, like 99% of it is boring. The designs, the variety, the perks, it’s all just bland and lifeless. At end game I was using stuff that basically didn’t look different than what I had at level 5. For a game that bills itself as some sort of loot shooter the loot just sucks. I’m really hoping that’s Anthem ends up being good.

 

[JesseZao]

People are finally realizing that meaningless grinds aren't fun?

If you think the game is fun to play outside of the artificial pursuit of something, the loot doesn't really matter.

I've pretty much lost all interest in video games recently, so I'm not a valuable opinion in this debate.

 

[Gator86]

I agree with a lot of what he said.

The Loot is what is killing it for me the most. Nothing is really that exciting anymore. Armor has no perks unless it is an exotic and the legendary guns all kinda lack personality now.

There just isnt anything to strive for at the moment it seems. Xur has sold the best exotics right out of the gate and many already got Coldheart from preordering.

There is no Fatebringer, Vex Mythocast or Gallerjhorn to strive for any more.

Also, the exotics are mostly bad. Faster sidearm ready speed? Wow.

 

[Kyoufu]

Light/Power has indeed been sloppy since the first game and one of the factors in why I stopped playing D1 and D2. You never ever feel like you've gotten stronger in Destiny because those level 4 mobs still take the same shots to kill even at maximum level. I know it's a design decision by Bungie, but it's not fun in a game that has RPG elements. Why even bother giving weapons and armour bigger numbers if it doesn't translate into bigger damage?

I won't even go into their loot problem because I'm getting tired of sounding like a broken record.

 

[gattsu]

Every time I play now, I make a little progress. That feels good. If I do hit the cap, it won't really change my play behavior much--I'll just be ready for Nightfalls when my friends are.

There's a struggle right now in the D2 community. I totally get this sentiment. Honestly, it fits my current schedule better. "D2 is a fine game to jump in a few times a week and have fun with friends". Etc.

But at heart I'm a hardcore Destiny nerd. Lots of people are. We crave for the promise of Destiny being OUR GAME. People who play Dota or League or FFXIV or WoW or Diablo, even Overwatch or Hearthstone have "their game". You never really need to play another if you choose not to. And that fosters a really special hardcore community. Sure, it's toxic sometimes. But there's this incredibly deep, special satisfaction of the depth present in many of those games that Destiny has had at times, which is completely absent right now.

Me, and tons of other people, desperately crave for destiny to be OUR game. I don't have a desire to play another game most nights of the week. I want there to be incredible depth and length to the gameplay. I don't give a damn about price. I would pay lots and lots of money many times over to have that depth. And right now, it doesn't feel like Bungie is fostering that game for us.

Everything Slayerage said is spot on. That's cool that the people who don't have a ton of time got something good out of D2. But here's to hoping that Bungie can improve D2, and improve it fast, for our own sake, the people who log on every night praying for any darn reason to do anything in this game. The people who have stuck with Bungie thick and thin, through all the D1 content droughts as well. Because at it's core, we know Destiny is better than the rest. Now we just need the developer to realize that too.

 

[ethomaz]

Destiny 2 needs some unbalanced patch.

 

[TripleBee]

Getting to 300+ light (where the issues are felt most) is not something exclusive to the 1000+ hours players or streamers. It's something you will hit very easily by just doing the normal checklist each week, and past that there is no real end-game.

The issue isn't that the end-game isn't enough to sink hundreds of hours into, it's that there isn't an end game. You get to the top and... well there's nothing to do that you haven't already done numerous times to get there.

You're doing the same things, to reach higher light, for no reason.

True. Though I would hope that the Seasons they are introducing help with that. They certainly did with Diablo.

 

[Sane_Man]

I don't mind gear having fixed perks, but I agree with everything else. Destiny 1 kept me hooked for 6 months and then a few months each for the DLC's. I'm already bored of D2 a month in. It just doesn't have the magic anymore.

The majority of Destiny players would agree that PVP with Last Word and Thorn was the most fun and that's when the game was at its most imbalanced. Balance is the antithesis of fun in Destiny.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Considering I don't want to devote every free hour for the next two-thirds years to just one game, I prefer the fixed rolls for gear.

The problem is that they are just boring and bare for the most part. Armor in particular, which has no unique perks whatsoever, being just the usual mobility, resilience, and recovery boost (and only one; iirc you have to choose which perk boost you get). The word that end game loot is just the same is more-so disappointing. If that was how things were handled in Crotas End, do you think we all would have put up with all the BS bugs?

Another point is reaching 305. First, it's likely that the final boss in the raid is at or above 305, so there is a minor use there. As for using just public events (not patrol, as you need to fufill powerful gear milestones to move up that patrols aren't a part of), that would take forever. I only reached 290 light yesterday through the Flashpoint and Crucible milestones. It's a long, slow crawl. So while it can be done, there's nothing attractive via that route. Most are going to want to dive into Nightfall and Raid at least once a week to boost their chance. Or to play those instead of the grind of the other two.

The rest I agree with. It's still a fun game and offers a lot of improvement over the first and its expansions, but a lot of that heart of Destiny is no longer present in Destiny 2.

 

[E92 M3]

I almost have everything in the game and couldn't be happier.

Screw the grind! I have the freedom to play how I want and whenever I want!

All hail Bungie!

:hail:

 

[nOoblet16]

I'll add that Slayerage isn't "one of the best" but pretty much the best Destiny PvE player out there.

I have repeatedly said every single thing that he mentioned in that post over why I think Destiny 2's end game is poop. The game is barely a month old but I was done and not interested in playing anymore after the first 2 weeks because I had no reason to. it's not because there is no "grind". I kept playing D1 even after hitting max levels because I wanted the best rolls of the best weapons. Now I just shard them as soon as I get them.

Yes there were factions, there is Iron Banner...but what do I get out of it? The loot I get is so crap that it's pointless. Everything is so watered down that shit like Nameless Midnight and Better Devils which are simply scout rifle and hand canon with explosive round are considered "top tier". I played Destiny for the power fantasy and Destiny 2 isn't letting me do that because it wants to "balance" things...and especially keep PvP and PvE parity. Fuck that it's not fun. But people who disagreed with me told me "But you put 100 hours into the game, that means you got value out of your purchase". That is missing the point that I did not buy Destiny 2 to get 100 hours, I expected double or even triple of that out of the base game after playing Destiny 1 + expansions for 1000+ hours.

 

[kiguel182]

Meaningless grinds are fun.

You shoot aliens and the numbers get bigger.

EDIT: Cooler loot would be nice. They could do that even before the DLC hits.

 

[computers putin']

Balance has taken a lot of the fun out of loot and the crucible without adding anything meaningful. Those who like it more this way are almost certainly rivaled by numbers who don't, because there's no question that the change is a matter of taste purely - but having less cool pve weapons is doubtlessly less fun. Therefore, balance has hurt the game more than it helps in my opinion.

Yes yes yes yes yes, finally someone says it. Seeking balance to an obsessive degree hurts shooters more than it helps, especially in a game like Destiny where you want loot to be varied, meaningful, and bad ass when it comes to the rarer stuff. This is one of the biggest reasons why I find D2 to be an inferior experience to D1 .

 

[gattsu]

But people who disagreed with me told me "But you put 100 hours into the game, that means you got value out of your purchase". That is missing the point that I did not buy Destiny 2 to get 100 hours, I expected double or even triple of that out of the base game after playing Destiny 1 + expansions for 1000+ hours.

Yeah, exactly. I would really pay any amount of money to have this type of game. I mean, look at how much depth there is to something like Warframe (say what you will about their grind). Maybe D2 should be sub based, maybe it should be F2P, I don't know. All I know is that Bungie has a special game on their hands and they aren't fostering the depth that there could be.

 

[serenewarfare]

One of my biggest problems with the game is that it feels so homogenized. I attribute a lot of this to the presence of PVP. Bungie is so desperate for "balance" in PVP that they are scared to make any weapon or armor that is truly unique in a way that makes you feel powerful. And on the flip side, the desire to balance the PVE grind leads to stuff like Iron Banner being stripped of level advantages. They need to decide what kind of game they want to be and stick to it as opposed to trying to tiptoe the line between PVP and PVE in a way that makes both suffer.

And that's to say nothing of the power curve being fucked. One of my favorite feelings in a loot game like this is going back to an older area and feeling like a damn god because you are powerful enough to just now guys down. You never get to that point in D2. At best, you perform better because you know the maps and layouts. You never feel that much more powerful from hour one to hour twenty relative to the enemies and obstacles around you.

People are finally realizing that meaningless grinds aren't fun?

If you think the game is fun to play, the loot doesn't really matter.

I've pretty much lost all interest in video games recently, so I'm not a valuable opinion in this debate.

This is 100% untrue. The game is fun to play. That's why a lot of people continue to play it and these issues come to the forefront. But eventually, you need the systems to support that gameplay.

 

[ethomaz]

Balance is indeed something that hurts Destiny 2.

You play games to be ducking stronger killer machine and if you find somebody even stronger than you then you will try get even stronger.

Now when everything is balanced you are a human playing against humans lol

 

[Omnistalgic]

Key point in the article, he admits he’s one of the players that “play too much”...so it’s to be expected.

I think LL will be even more important with additional content. And end-game will get further and further away from the casual Destiny player, this is launch Destiny, give it some time.

Even the balance in crucible will please both sides if they just add one crazy mode of 6 v 6 where your super recharges quickly.

I feel a lot of his issues will be solved with content packs and updates. I felt “I’m finished” very early in Destiny 1 and didn’t pick it back up until the Collection.

 

[Bold One]

There is definitely some room for improvements, but fuck me this is getting silly 😋

 

[Brandon F]

Fully agreed.

I mean I feel like I was the only sane person in an asylum reading the reviews and editorials trying to spin these issues into positives.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Yeah from everything I have been hearing the past few days, I decided to pull my pre-order and will wait until the first big expansion hits to see the changes

 

[Gator86]

Meaningless grinds are fun.

You shoot aliens and the numbers get bigger.

EDIT: Cooler loot would be nice. They could do that even before the DLC hits.

I don't think grinds have to be meaningless though. It's just mind-boggling how little they took from games like Diablo 3. There's always a way to progress and tons of builds/playstyles. There's nothing like that in D2. The builds are locked in and mostly bland in addition to exotics that do next to nothing to alter playstyles. In Diablo 3, a new legendary can push you to an entirely new build and playstyle. In D2, nothing changes basically because builds and playstyles don't exist nor can you really progress in any way.

 

[shimon]

So...honeymoon's over finally I guess?

 

[serenewarfare]

Balance is indeed something that hurts Destiny 2.

You play games to be ducking stronger killer machine and if you find somebody even stronger than you then you will try get even stronger.

Now when everything is balanced you are a human playing against humans lol

Yeah, exactly. They relented to the people harping about "he has what I don't and I want it" by saying "fine, you can all have everything!" and thus making it all worthless.

Instead they should have just created more stuff to get that was desireable. That way the reaction to "you have something I don't have" is "yes, but I have something you don't have either". They should have went the path of making everyone unique. Instead they want to give everyone everything.