I understand every native speaker who felt that it's off. I only noticed a few awkward things and many typical anime translation subs which I didnt mind because my anime is also translated like this. I was fine with it, but it seems many native speakers arent so Atlus should have done better than this. Havent heard such a complain from a non native speaker (work or friends) yet though.
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A deeper look at the fumbles in Persona 5's localization, and the industry in general
- Thread starter TheSporkWithin
- Start date
graywolf323
Gold Member
between the localization and the ass backwards restrictions on streaming/screenshots I really hope they didn't squander all the progress Persona 4 made for the series
Trying to pass off the settings of the Ace Attorney games as US is silly, but otherwise that comic strip isn't a good argument against more liberal translations. Ace Attorney is a prime example of how localizations do need to often make big changes and consider the language being translated into instead of going with the most literal translations. It relies heavily on subtleties with a lot of its puzzles so awkward & poor translation that literal, straightforward translations usually are would make it far less playable since the gameplay is all based on text.
TheSporkWithin
Member
Right. But it's also true that through painstaking work it's possible to capture a larger amount of the original, or to find ways to fill in the gaps that are completely impossible to capture. Persona 4 was an absolutely excellent example of this.
Some people have been saying that the game or its characters aren't resonating with them the same way that P4's cast did. Of course people will have different feelings, but when I played through the game in Japanese I absolutely loved the cast, both the main party and the supporting characters, with very few exceptions. They were vibrant and full of personality and life. If the localization failed to capture that, that's an enormous shame.
In particular, it seems that the translation of Sae and the interrogation scenes is utterly indefensible, and I can't imagine that not then bleeding out onto the rest of the game. The contrast between the Sae you see in the interrogation with the one you see at home with Makoto can't possibly come across correctly. The sudden flashes of cold rage that would slip through at home, or the disarmed shock in the interrogation room can't possibly have the same effect (if they were even noticeable at all). Watching Sae's icy front begin to chip away as the testimony progressed was crucial to Makoto's character arc.
I'm a native speaker and I don't have an issue with it but that might be because I watch anime.
That said it can be improved.
SolicitorPirate
Member
Honestly, it feels like they did. P5 made a huge splash on release, but I haven't seen the sustained conversation that games like Zelda got
Lets not.
FE: Awakening and Fates dont have the same problem P5 has as far as I know. (Localization related changes vs bad grammar)
God, that's actually way shittier of a reason than if, say, AtlusUS decided it sounded better to pronounce them that way or something. AtlusJP shitting up their game for the West in more ways than one bums me the hell out.
I've finished my first playthrough recently. I enjoyed the game despite the odd lines or excessive stock phrases that I'd likely never hear from other native speakers.
The bits that really stuck out to me when I played were: the beginning cellphone call confusion, or the battle tutorial's "serious to kill us" bit, or most times we return to Sae in the interrogation room. Definitely chose to just keep mashing the X button rather than sit there deliberating what a vague sentence was supposed to mean.
The bits that really stuck out to me when I played were: the beginning cellphone call confusion, or the battle tutorial's "serious to kill us" bit, or most times we return to Sae in the interrogation room. Definitely chose to just keep mashing the X button rather than sit there deliberating what a vague sentence was supposed to mean.
At least it wasn't
"THIS IS UNFORGIVABLE!"
This is a great write-up. To reiterate, nobody is calling for Atlus' head on a pike or saying the game is garbage because of these issues. The point is that this is an extremely visible example of what happens when you don't give a localization the proper time and resources.
Going through the examples given, I was struck by how many of them are things I've done while doing a rush or live translation job - or even a NaNoWriMo draft - and I'm by no means a professional writer, editor, or translator. That doesn't mean that Atlus is a bunch of amateurs, but it serves as a reminder that writing and translating is really damn hard to do well, especially at scale, and even pros will slip up if they're under the gun.
Going through the examples given, I was struck by how many of them are things I've done while doing a rush or live translation job - or even a NaNoWriMo draft - and I'm by no means a professional writer, editor, or translator. That doesn't mean that Atlus is a bunch of amateurs, but it serves as a reminder that writing and translating is really damn hard to do well, especially at scale, and even pros will slip up if they're under the gun.
The Sae stuff has been the worst of it for me, too. I guess her being professional and direct in her speech led to the way the translation felt so goddamn machine-like? In media res of a cop interrogating a perp really never sounds like this in English, and the game could have been so much better if Sae had been playing more of a role, especially since you have other scenes of her being more "normal" interspersed throughout the game.
Chronospherics
Member
From what I saw most of not all of the translation errors are restricted to inessential disalogue. The core story content, which is typically voiced, was given far more attention. It's usually things like the shadow conversations where I see errors.
The main story content is actually by far where I notice the most errors. Stuff like Confidants tend to be the best of this localization in my experience.
That was describing Translation. What you're proposing would be part of Localisation.
While I haven't played Persona 5, or any of the other titles outside of the first, in English, I got the impression that the in-house localization team (that had worked on previous titles) had a pretty good grasp of the difference between localization and translation.
Reading some of the behind-the-scenes interviews, I thought that some of the text was localized quite well. I wonder what happened. Were there changes in personnel?
Personally, I feel like you would lose a lot of the Japanese vibe in the process. It doesn't mean that you can't make a bittersweet, coming-of-age, high-school drama resonate with a "foreign" audience, but to what extent should you go to preserve the original material if it only serves to detract from immersion?
This is a question that I face all the time. If you need a reminder that localization is tough, look at the (stellar) job that the FFXIV team does with their work. There are many, MANY instances where they favor localization over translation, and the fanbase can't decide whether it's a good thing or not lol. Personally, I think they take it just a bit too far, but I like the "Ifrit Bleeds We Can Kill It" story so much, that I'm willing to let it slide.
Truth is, most game designers don't understand the challenges / demands of localization, nor are they aware of what they can do to make our job easier. You often get treated like some kind of glorified dictionary and it's a constant struggle to make the team understand just what the process entails. lol
I'll check out the article later, but I don't want to be spoiled on anything!
I disagree with you...disagreeing lol
The aim of translation is to convey the source text into something that the intended audience can understand. Whether or not it is controversial is irrelevant. Whether the subject matter is difficult or not is also irrelevant. Your job is to render the message into something that has identical, or near-identical meaning for the intended audience. This is not to say that it's all about the words. If that was the case, machine translation would suffice. Rather, you're conveying the message, the underlying intent of the statement (including any insinuations or innuendos involved). You making sure that the sensibilities of the audience are protected comes down to intent: did the speaker have those same sensibilities in mind when they made their statement? If so, then you would naturally include that in your translation. If the speaker intends to offend, then you would include that as well, though you would have to make concessions based on the game's rating and the context of title itself (e.g. whether or not racial / sexual slurs belong in the game or not, etc.).
Localization means adapting the message so that it's culturally relevant to the intended audience. For example, if you have two kids talking about their favorite superhero, making allusions that a monster lives in their toilet, or referencing a specific pop idol, these would need to be localized to avoid confusion of your players.
Reading some of the behind-the-scenes interviews, I thought that some of the text was localized quite well. I wonder what happened. Were there changes in personnel?
Personally, I feel like you would lose a lot of the Japanese vibe in the process. It doesn't mean that you can't make a bittersweet, coming-of-age, high-school drama resonate with a "foreign" audience, but to what extent should you go to preserve the original material if it only serves to detract from immersion?
This is a question that I face all the time. If you need a reminder that localization is tough, look at the (stellar) job that the FFXIV team does with their work. There are many, MANY instances where they favor localization over translation, and the fanbase can't decide whether it's a good thing or not lol. Personally, I think they take it just a bit too far, but I like the "Ifrit Bleeds We Can Kill It" story so much, that I'm willing to let it slide.
Truth is, most game designers don't understand the challenges / demands of localization, nor are they aware of what they can do to make our job easier. You often get treated like some kind of glorified dictionary and it's a constant struggle to make the team understand just what the process entails. lol
I'll check out the article later, but I don't want to be spoiled on anything!
I disagree with you...disagreeing lol
The aim of translation is to convey the source text into something that the intended audience can understand. Whether or not it is controversial is irrelevant. Whether the subject matter is difficult or not is also irrelevant. Your job is to render the message into something that has identical, or near-identical meaning for the intended audience. This is not to say that it's all about the words. If that was the case, machine translation would suffice. Rather, you're conveying the message, the underlying intent of the statement (including any insinuations or innuendos involved). You making sure that the sensibilities of the audience are protected comes down to intent: did the speaker have those same sensibilities in mind when they made their statement? If so, then you would naturally include that in your translation. If the speaker intends to offend, then you would include that as well, though you would have to make concessions based on the game's rating and the context of title itself (e.g. whether or not racial / sexual slurs belong in the game or not, etc.).
Localization means adapting the message so that it's culturally relevant to the intended audience. For example, if you have two kids talking about their favorite superhero, making allusions that a monster lives in their toilet, or referencing a specific pop idol, these would need to be localized to avoid confusion of your players.
I've been staring at this post for minutes trying to decipher what you're saying. I think...I might need a translator. Or better yet, a localizer.
I think he's trying to say that the mistakes (read: design choices) the localization team team made were intentional. By adhering more towards literal translation, they're making a conscious decision to preserve those inherently Japanese aspects of the text, rather than risk "losing them" in a more faithful, localized text...I think... lol
Seemed pretty tongue-in-cheek though.
Site has some weird organization decisions. Why start with the last item for the first bullet-point list?
Lead localizer for most of their games for over a decade left for Treehouse in 2015.
One of Guilty Gear's biggest villains was referred to as just "That Man" for a long time, too, apparently.
Lead localizer for most of their games for over a decade left for Treehouse in 2015.
Do we actually know what being a project lead entails? I only know Namba is usually on-site to oversee the VO sessions.
One of Guilty Gear's biggest villains was referred to as just "That Man" for a long time, too, apparently.
I haven't played either version of the game, so grain of salt and all that, but don't let some (disputed) faults with the localization steer you away. The game itself has received pretty much universal appraise.
Ok wait, I agree... so disagreeing with my first comment...
Well I actually misinterpreted the meaning intended regarding translation. I was looking at "Translation" in that comment as if it was "Localisation". My bad.
I've just had a look at some of the examples and they're really stretching it. The whole thing exudes arrogance by someone who doesn't fully understand the difference between trifle and trifle. I don't know, this just seems petty.
I wouldn't let this put your off the game. One of his criticisms is that 07734 doesn't spell "Hello" when turned upside down, despite the game saying it does. Yet anyone who has ever owned a calculator will know that it does in fact say "hello". Then they would have typed 58008 and giggled to themselves for hours on end, because they were probably 5 when they figured all of this out.
I wouldn't let this put your off the game. One of his criticisms is that 07734 doesn't spell "Hello" when turned upside down, despite the game saying it does. Yet anyone who has ever owned a calculator will know that it does in fact say "hello". Then they would have typed 58008 and giggled to themselves for hours on end, because they were probably 5 when they figured all of this out.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
I don't think a single person here thinks the game isn't worth playing because of the translation. Get some dang ol perspective man.
I'm enjoying the game, but as someone who doesn't watch anime and whose very early on in the game, the dialogue simply isn't right. People just don't talk this way.
It doesn't make the game feel 'japanese', it makes the game feel stilted and odd.
S'all good, mayne.
Not like I need much of an excuse to talk about localization / translation. lol ^^
If only it was "a few pieces" and just about grammar.
What? No, no no. It got that score because it's the best JRPG in years.
Dark souls 2 has received criticism for the overall feel Of the combat and plenty of other things not living up to DS1. That's disagreeable, certainly, but P5 is mechanically superior in damn near every aspect to P4G.
Skipping this over sometimes wonky phrasing is like skipping Bloodborne because there's fewer weapons. Its an issue for some people, sure, but just not...the thing to take away from this?
Do you not think a lot of the examples given are unreasonable and are stretches in an attempt to prove a point? I'm not denying that some errors exist, but the article writer is calling out Atlus for things that are his/her own misunderstanding.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
The only example you mentioned was "trifle" which clearly was a grammatical error. It should have at least been "trifling matters."
So what percentage of the game is poorly translated?
I've put 25 hours in and I've noticed it every now and then, but nowhere near enough for this to be some kind of failure.
I'm not saying we shouldn't critique, but when we have people ITT suggesting they'll return their copy now perhaps things have been blown out of proportion a little?
I've put 25 hours in and I've noticed it every now and then, but nowhere near enough for this to be some kind of failure.
I'm not saying we shouldn't critique, but when we have people ITT suggesting they'll return their copy now perhaps things have been blown out of proportion a little?
Both nier and persona 5 both have glaring issues in this regard. Nier is way worse. Its 2017 and were still getting poorly timed dub titles. Yay. Anime industry has come a long way but apparently japanese games havent. Persona 5 has a few dumb wording here or there but its not totally bad. Obvious issues when you play with japanese audio for sure.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
I only started to notice this properly when I switched to JP voices. Some of the things that are said aren't represented properly in the English text at all, which sometimes completely changes the intended tone of the sentence. There's also some phrases or words that are said but then not translated accurately or literally, which as a Japanese speager is quite jarring to me. Completely understand where this article is coming from. Great read.
Mainly because i'm not going to dissect the whole thing for a forum. I actually updated my original post to give another example, as a reply to someone else, regarding the upside down "07734" not reading hello. When anyone who has ever owned a calculator knows this to be true. It's nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.
How bad is it really though?
Because I'm playing the game and for the vast majority of text things seem to be perfectly fine... (25 hours in).
Exactly... the game is nowhere near as poorly translated as some are making it out to be.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Not even saying it's 1990s level bad or anything, just that for a game like this it's noticeably sub-standard. Can't even really speculate on the cause (personnel, budget, orders from above) but someone in the decision making chain made some bad ones.
It stands out more to those who are more familiar with the processes, like any similar area of specialization would. If you don't care then cool