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[Abelian75]

You don't see each other's changes, no.

 

[Outrun]

What's this now?

Nuclear launch detected...

 

[Rndm]

So the game doesn't have multiplayer (as of now) and he under promised. But why is he ignoring the backlash? His tweets seems to target the casual crowd who don't know any better. He must be aware of all the Reddit and NeoGAF threads by now.


Edit:
Seriously, look at his tweets. I bet those aren't even the 3 most reported glitches/issues/bugs.

I bet Sony is telling him not to say anything. Would it be the right thing to do from a moral standpoint? Sure. But if he would talk about it now, apologize and confirm all the negative things brought up it wouldn't make him/his studio/the game look any better. People would be just as mad if not even more mad and it would be a story that every gaming site (and probably many non-gaming sites) would pick up. And I highly doubt it would help the sales, you know.

So we get "corporate Sean" who on his twitter talks about either positive things or just dives into smaller issues the game has which they know they can fix quickly and stays silent/ignorant about all the rest because he's "too busy".

It's... unfortunately nothing new. Last time I remember a dev behaving like that was when Destiny came out, and imo Bungie never really went on to be upfront about all the shit that went down to this day. Sure some little things here and there, but to me it seemed like all their "sorrys" were connected to a "please buy the DLC" or at least a "please play the game because we need the players".

So my conclusion is that nobody should expect an honest apology or statement from Sean or Hello Games EVER.

 

[Outrun]

So I heard there's multiple players playing this game. It's a multiplayer game. What more do you guys want?

I want it all.


And I want it now.

 

[Outrun]

I bet Sony is telling him not to say anything. Would it be the right thing to do from a moral standpoint? Sure. But if he would talk about it now, apologize and confirm all the negative things brought up it wouldn't make him/his studio/the game look any better. People would be just as mad if not even more mad and it would be a story that every gaming site (and probably many non-gaming sites) would pick up. And I highly doubt it would help the sales, you know.

So we get "corporate Sean" who on his twitter talks about either positive things or just dives into smaller issues the game has which they know they can fix quickly and stays silent/ignorant about all the rest because he's "too busy".

It's... unfortunately nothing new. Last time I remember a dev behaving like that was when Destiny came out, and imo Bungie never really went on to be upfront about all the shit that went down to this day. Sure some little things here and there, but to me it seemed like all their "sorrys" were connected to a "please buy the DLC" or at least a "please play the game because we need the players".

So my conclusion is that nobody should expect an honest apology or statement from Sean or Hello Games EVER.

We don't know what Sony told him, if anything.

Let's not drag them into this.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Sony didn't publish NMS. Only dealt with distribution and some marketing.

 

[Coreda]

Quick question. I've seen in videos that it's been said the people who went to the same place couldn't see each other, but could see each other's changes. Is that true?

JaseC posted an interview earlier in the thread that stated changes to the environment are visible locally only and aren't synchronized between players, only plant/creature/planet names. As for the stream of those who met I haven't seen it.

 

[I_D]

This might not be the best test of SP/MP, but if you alt+tab the game, nothing changes while the game is minimized.

Meaning if you're X seconds away from a planet, you won't get any closer while the game is alt+tabbed. If a ship is flying by you in the sky, it will still be there when you resume game.

If the game had a persistent MP universe, I would assume alt+tabbing wouldn't freeze the in-game time.

 

[Two Words]

This might not be the best test of SP/MP, but if you alt+tab the game, nothing changes while the game is minimized.

Meaning if you're X seconds away from a planet, you won't get any closer while the game is alt+tabbed. If a ship is flying by you in the sky, it will still be there when you resume game.

If the game had a persistent MP universe, I would assume alt+tabbing wouldn't freeze the in-game time.

The smart way of handling MP, if there was MP, is to not have servers running instances until two people are in the same system. There wouldn't need to be a lot of servers since the throughput of instancing users would be very low.

 

[Rndm]

We don't know what Sony told him, if anything.

Let's not drag them into this.

Well, that's just my personal opinion and to me it makes a lot of sense. NMS is one of PS4's big games this year. Do you really think that Sony would want to attack the sales of that game by having Sean talk about everything brought up in this thread?

There is a reason why Sony invested and still invests so heavily in the development, support and marketing of the game. They make money off of it and, no offense to Sean, but I think the Sony PR team, whose job it is to do PR and handle those kind of things, knows more about that stuff than Sean does. So who do you think is more likely to be responsible for Sean not commenting on the situation?

Sure we do not know the exact terms of their contract and all that, but most of the time the most logical explanation turns out to be the right one. But again, it's all just my opinion and speculation but I prefer to think that Sean is being told to stay shut because if not he would just be a giant... [insert any expletive here].

 

[Two Words]

Well, that's just my personal opinion and to me it makes a lot of sense. NMS is one of PS4's big games this year. Do you really think that Sony would want to attack the sales of that game by having Sean talk about everything brought up in this thread?

There is a reason why Sony invested and still invests so heavily in the development, support and marketing of the game. They make money off of it and, no offense to Sean, but I think the Sony PR team, whose job it is to do PR and handle those kind of things, knows more about that stuff than Sean does. So who do you think is more likely to be responsible for Sean not commenting on the situation?

Sure we do not know the exact terms of their contract and all that, but most of the time the most logical explanation turns out to be the right one. But again, it's all just my opinion and speculation but I prefer to think that Sean is being told to stay shut because if not he would just be a giant... [insert any expletive here].

So we're going to just blame Sony for Sean Murray's actions because of wild speculations?

 

[nynt9]

So we're going to just blame Sony for Sean Murray's actions because of wild speculations?

Funnily, it's always juniors who make posts like that.

Maybe we should have a fresh thread for all the broken promises including multiplayer and physics and whatnot? This thread has too much baggage.

 

[DataGhost]

Funnily, it's always juniors who make posts like that.

Maybe we should have a fresh thread for all the broken promises including multiplayer and physics and whatnot? This thread has too much baggage.

"Useful" baggage like crackachu.

Just got back, has PC players found each other yet?

Also, any word / update?

 

[Zomba13]

I wonder how much of the stuff promised in the patch notes will actually make it in the game...

I mean, we all know that when/if things aren't added that they said they would add then there will be droves of people saying they were never promised or advertised and you are just interpreting the patch notes wrong.

Ha, nailed it... in a way

To be fair, in a lot of games, the character model you see in first person isn't the same one that's visible to other players. In other words, just because you don't see an arm, doesn't inherently mean another player couldn't hypothetically see your body. There are a number of indicators that point to the very likely possibility that online multiplayer wasn't included in NMS, but I wouldn't necessarily look to this as one of them.

Edit: If there's no character model in the game's files at all, then that's a different story.

PC players have mined the data and (spoilers on if there is or isn't a player model. I don't know why this would be a spoiler unless you consider it being there or not being there confirmation of one side or something)

Spoiler

there is a player model, or what appears to be one but I don't know if it is finished. Someone, I think it was gossi did say he found textures for it, but yeah, it's not actually used in the game for the player from your perspective

 

[Rndm]

So we're going to just blame Sony for Sean Murray's actions because of wild speculations?

Why do you say "we"? You should have said "you". I don't expect anyone else to think like that and it's up to you what you think.

All I was saying is that to me it would make sense if Sony was the reason for Sean not talking about any of this. I respect that you don't agree with my reasoning at all but to me it sounds a but naive to think that this is all up to Sean and it's all just his decision. In the end it's a business and NMS is expected to make some serious money. Who in their right mind would put all of that responsibility on one single person? Why would Sony, a multi-million dollar company, stay out of it and be so stupid and take such a risk?

That's why I think what I think and I just wanted to share my point of view.

 

[DigtialT]

Why do you say "we"? You should have said "you". I don't expect anyone else to think like that and it's up to you what you think.

All I was saying is that to me it would make sense if Sony was the reason for Sean not talking about any of this. I respect that you don't agree with my reasoning at all but to me it sounds a but naive to think that this is all up to Sean and it's all just his decision. In the end it's a business and NMS is expected to make some serious money. Who in their right mind would put all of that responsibility on one single person? Why would Sony, a multi-million dollar company, stay out of it and be so stupid and take such a risk?

That's why I think what I think and I just wanted to share my point of view.

There are a lot of reasons why Sony would have no control over what Sean says or does:

1.They do not own the No Man's Sky IP
2.Hello Games are a third party studio
3.Even if they had signed an NDA, that would have ended at least by the PC release

All Sony did was publish the game on PS4, they have no control over Sean's message or PR.

Edit: I stand corrected, Sony didn't even publish the game on PS4. My main point still stands, Sony has no control over what Sean can say or do.

 

[nynt9]

There are a lot of reasons why Sony would have no control over what Sean says or does:

1.They do not own the No Man's Sky IP
2.Hello Games are a third party studio
3.Even if they had signed an NDA, that would have ended at least by the PC release

All Sony did was publish the game on PS4, they have no control over Sean's message or PR.

The game is self published by HG on PS4. Go check the listing.

I wonder how much of the stuff promised in the patch notes will actually make it in the game...

I mean, we all know that when/if things aren't added that they said they would add then there will be droves of people saying they were never promised or advertised and you are just interpreting the patch notes wrong.

Yeah, at this point I don't trust them to necessarily implement promised patch features. Given their track record with features promised before the release of the game, what reason do I have to believe them?

 

[Two Words]

Why do you say "we"? You should have said "you". I don't expect anyone else to think like that and it's up to you what you think.

All I was saying is that to me it would make sense if Sony was the reason for Sean not talking about any of this. I respect that you don't agree with my reasoning at all but to me it sounds a but naive to think that this is all up to Sean and it's all just his decision. In the end it's a business and NMS is expected to make some serious money. Who in their right mind would put all of that responsibility on one single person? Why would Sony, a multi-million dollar company, stay out of it and be so stupid and take such a risk?

That's why I think what I think and I just wanted to share my point of view.

It would also make sense that Sean is simply hiding from the backlash because he just doesn't want to deal with it. And hey, that doesn't require blaming somebody else with absolute zero evidence.

 

[travisbickle]

Molyenux talked crazier shit the reinventing the periodic table to change the colour of the sky? On the contrary it's YOU who has no idea about the insane shit the developer claimed was under the hood in no mans sky. Either that or your just thumping your chest like the rest of this games frankly scary fan base. Also, if you're straight going to call bullshit on my post it would be nice of you to provide at least one example to back your post up. Seriously, the developer of this game claimed all the planets and moons would have rotations, no sky boxes but instead simulate actual refraction of light to create atmosphere and colour that every other game has 'fake' physics etc. Let's have an example please, or its you who's full of shit.

Having followed Sean Murray all the stuff he says is just about the game using mathematical formulas more than other games. There's a lot of inputs into formulas and outputs, so when he says "we manipulated the molecules in the periodic table to change the colour of the sky" he means we restricted the range of inputs for this algorithm so as to better predict the output. But if you watch the Game Informer interviewer where Sean has to keep explaining the maths you can understand why he uses more flamboyant language. Even for planets it's just this planet is here because it moves on this trajectory and a certain amount of time has passed so it's position has changed.

It's like trying to describe PBR to someone, if they're not technically minded you might have to just say it's more real because physics man!!!

 

[Rndm]

There are a lot of reasons why Sony would have no control over what Sean says or does:

1.They do not own the No Man's Sky IP
2.Hello Games are a third party studio
3.Even if they had signed an NDA, that would have ended at least by the PC release

All Sony did was publish the game on PS4, they have no control over Sean's message or PR.

Sony is just the distributor of the game as far as I know.

But it doesn't always have to be so drastic. Sony or a PR company that Hello Games works with could very well just lend Sean their PR expertise and give him their input on what to do. Then it'd still be up to HG to decide what to do. Afterall it's in HG's best interest to have the game perform well financially hence why the situation is being handled like that.

It's all speculations but that's what they invite to happen when they don't say a word.

 

[DataGhost]

It would also make sense that Sean is simply hiding from the backlash because he just doesn't want to deal with it. And hey, that doesn't require blaming somebody else with absolute zero evidence.

I agree.


What evidence is there that suggests Sony has a hand in this?
If there is an NDA, it should have definitely ended by now.

Why do you say "we"? You should have said "you". I don't expect anyone else to think like that and it's up to you what you think.

All I was saying is that to me it would make sense if Sony was the reason for Sean not talking about any of this. I respect that you don't agree with my reasoning at all but to me it sounds a but naive to think that this is all up to Sean and it's all just his decision. In the end it's a business and NMS is expected to make some serious money. Who in their right mind would put all of that responsibility on one single person? Why would Sony, a multi-million dollar company, stay out of it and be so stupid and take such a risk?

That's why I think what I think and I just wanted to share my point of view.

Why would you not discuss it?

When asked about the stickers, Sony came right out with the answer.

But now, if they keep the answer from us, we're only going to figure out that it was a lie.
If Sony is involved, it will only make them look bad when Sean can come out with the answer (if he's being kept from saying it). However, Sony can dissolve this whole disaster upon themselves by just coming out with it. Sure, it will make Sean look bad, but Sony didn't promise anything, Sean did.

Sony is just the distributor of the game as far as I know.

But it doesn't always have to be so drastic. Sony or a PR company that Hello Games works with could very well just lend Sean their PR expertise and give him their input on what to do. Then it'd still be up to HG to decide what to do. Afterall it's in HG's best interest to have the game perform well financially hence why the situation is being handled like that.

It's all speculations but that's what they invite to happen when they don't say a word.

Then it's Sean's fault, not Sony's fault as you stated earlier. Sure they can give recommendations, they're not forcing him to withhold the answer.

You're contradicting yourself here. Why were you blaming Sony earlier when now you're blaming HG?

Well, that's just my personal opinion and to me it makes a lot of sense. NMS is one of PS4's big games this year. Do you really think that Sony would want to attack the sales of that game by having Sean talk about everything brought up in this thread?

There is a reason why Sony invested and still invests so heavily in the development, support and marketing of the game. They make money off of it and, no offense to Sean, but I think the Sony PR team, whose job it is to do PR and handle those kind of things, knows more about that stuff than Sean does. So who do you think is more likely to be responsible for Sean not commenting on the situation?

Sure we do not know the exact terms of their contract and all that, but most of the time the most logical explanation turns out to be the right one. But again, it's all just my opinion and speculation but I prefer to think that Sean is being told to stay shut because if not he would just be a giant... [insert any expletive here].

As you said, it's only a recommendation. They're not holding a gun to Sean's head. He's the one making the final decision and the one responsible.

 

[Rndm]

Why would you not discuss it?

Because Sony has a financial interest in the game as well.

The game is also on PC, Sony only distributes the PS4 version, but the game is nonetheless being associated with Sony after being heavily advertised and promoted by them (trading shows, trailers, blogposts, interviews, NMS was all over Sony's marketing platforms.)

Sony may not be the developer or the publisher behind it, but the way Sony supported this game sure blurs the lines for some people and not everyone may be able to seperate HG's actions from Sony's.

Then it's Sean's fault, not Sony's fault as you stated earlier. Sure they can give recommendations, they're not forcing him to withhold the answer.

You're contradicting yourself here. Why were you blaming Sony earlier when now you're blaming HG?

I'm not. Of course a developer from a small studio with no real experience would listen to what someone that specializes in that field would suggest. Couldn't blame them for that. And the reason why I wrote it like that is because the guy I repelied to made it seem like I was implying that HG was forced to do whatever they were being told.

And I'm not even saying that it is anyone's fault. I can totally get the reasoning behind not saying anything. I said earlier that it's not the right thing to do from a moral standpoint, but morality has little to do with business.

 

[DataGhost]

Because Sony has a financial interest in the game as well.

The game is also on PC, Sony only distributes the PS4 version, but the game is nonetheless being associated with Sony after being heavily advertised and promoted by them (trading shows, trailers, blogposts, interviews, NMS was all over Sony's marketing platforms.)

Sony may not be the developer or the publisher behind it, but the way Sony supported this game sure blurs the lines for some people and not everyone may be able to seperate HG's actions from Sony's.

Okay so they withhold the information.

All these features are revealed to not in fact be in game and the reputation of Hello Games is dragged down.

Sure, but once Hello Games is dragged down enough because they weren't able to include the features that were promised that means it's both their fault / liability.

On Sean's part for not implementing the features / revealing the features prematurely. He's still an accomplice of omitting information.

And IF SONY really does have a hand in it, oh boy will the backlash be bigger than this thread. But that will be harder to prove unless Sean outright states it.

 

[Rndm]

Sure, but once Hello Games is dragged down enough because they weren't able to include the features that were promised that means it's both their fault / liability.

[...]

And IF SONY really does have a hand in it, oh boy will the backlash be bigger than this thread. But that will be harder to prove unless Sean outright states it.

Sony has to make sure that people don't think it was. And at this point, not saying anything sure was the best thing they could have done.

I remains to be seen if at some point the anger directed towards HG will jump over to Sony. As I said, Sony promoted the game a lot and I wonder if people do hold Sony accountable to some degree for promoting the game the way they did or if people won't attack Sony whatsoever because they think that Sony has been "deceived" as well and couldn't know any better.

Look I'm a big supporter of Sony and I'm not trying to make them out to be the big evil behind all this. I'm just trying to evaluate how much Sony could be invloved in this and most of that evaluaten is build on assumptions. I'm not trying to make a point that others need to agree with. I'm just voicing my opinion for the sake of having it represented and I appreciate everyone fighting me over this and telling me how there is no evidence for what I'm saying, but maybe that's the point. Let's just say I pulled a Sean and let my imagination go crazy.

The only good thing is that I still have my sealed LE copy of the game here and that this thread helped me with my decision to return it. Not spending all that money sure helps not caring about this game and all of the negativity surrounding it too much anymore and I'm sorry for everyone who feels cheated and is unhappy with the game but cannot get a refund.

 

[Russ T]

I would honestly be very surprised if Sony had any hand in the silence. It's not outside the realm of possibility, but... It'd sure be odd. At most I'd expect maybe they RECOMMENDED silence, but Hello Games wouldn't be beholden to follow orders, unless the contract is really a strange one.

Having followed Sean Murray all the stuff he says is just about the game using mathematical formulas more than other games. There's a lot of inputs into formulas and outputs, so when he says "we manipulated the molecules in the periodic table to change the colour of the sky" he means we restricted the range of inputs for this algorithm so as to better predict the output. But if you watch the Game Informer interviewer where Sean has to keep explaining the maths you can understand why he uses more flamboyant language. Even for planets it's just this planet is here because it moves on this trajectory and a certain amount of time has passed so it's position has changed.

It's like trying to describe PBR to someone, if they're not technically minded you might have to just say it's more real because physics man!!!

Bingo! This is exactly what he's doing every time he talks about the procedural generation aspect of things. Obviously it doesn't apply to physics or multiplayer or anything else needed to be calculated in real time, but it absolutely applies to things like determining the color of the sky.

Anyone who is flabbergasted by the line about the periodic table either doesn't know better or is misunderstanding him. Both are understandable. I'd probably be confused myself if I wasn't a game programmer! I won't pretend I'm an expert, but I do understand how procgen works. It's a really fun topic. (Even if it doesn't always necessarily serve gameplay very well...)

 

[AcademicSaucer]

The smart way of handling MP, if there was MP, is to not have servers running instances until two people are in the same system. There wouldn't need to be a lot of servers since the throughput of instancing users would be very low.

How do the servers know that 2 people are in the same system ?

 

[Russ T]

How do the servers know that 2 people are in the same system ?

When a client requests info about the system they're in, that would require the client send their location. At that point (theoretically, if true multiplayer exists), the server would wait until someone else entered the same system and then determine whether or not to start requesting location updates to send between players.

 

[Permanently A]

Its so fucking weird to constantly say that you'll be able to see other players, and then not include it. Did they think people just wouldn't notice or care or what? Now you have this whole big mess.

 

[IAmAnAgnostic]

Its so fucking weird to constantly say that you'll be able to see other players, and then not include it. Did they think people just wouldn't notice or care or what? Now you have this whole big mess.

I think it is weirder still that they don't address the situation.

 

[BizzyBum]

Someone has, there is no model. You are invisible

We don't see other players because as of now everyone is invisible.

I'm traversing the galaxy with millions of ghosts.

 

[Two Words]

How do the servers know that 2 people are in the same system ?

By keeping track of where each online player is. So when you jump to a new star system, you ping to the game's server "Hey, I'm going to star system 0x0123456789ABCDEF" or whatever and the system flips a boolean flag that that star system is currently occupied. If the flag is already set to true, then somebody is already there. Perhaps have a list assiciated to the data of active players at that location. Then just start up an instance so that the joining player syncs to the parameters of the person already there.

 

[Jimrpg]

Why do you say "we"? You should have said "you". I don't expect anyone else to think like that and it's up to you what you think.

All I was saying is that to me it would make sense if Sony was the reason for Sean not talking about any of this. I respect that you don't agree with my reasoning at all but to me it sounds a but naive to think that this is all up to Sean and it's all just his decision. In the end it's a business and NMS is expected to make some serious money. Who in their right mind would put all of that responsibility on one single person? Why would Sony, a multi-million dollar company, stay out of it and be so stupid and take such a risk?

That's why I think what I think and I just wanted to share my point of view.

Why does the big corporation always have to be the one behind the shady tactics? I'd like an example where Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo have been this quiet when asked a direct question.

Look what happened with Driveclub, multiplayer didn't work for 3 months after the game came out but they communicated with the gamers. Sony could have easily kept quiet on that front.

With NMS, Sony are just the distributor on PS4, and Hello Games as developer and publisher has full responsibility in responding to things like this.

 

[Eumi]

I can't fucking believe they haven't said anything yet.

It's amazing.

 

[Lothars]

Lets be honest guys, Sean Murray is no Peter Molyneux.

Spoiler

After all, Molyneux has actually made good games.

You are wrong in multiple ways but he has made three good games.

 

[KingSnake]

Newtonian physics are a real time thing and ARE HARD AS FUCK TO MODEL ACCURATELY.

Multiplayer is a real time thing and is HARD AS FUCK TO DO WELL.

Ecosystems are infinitely more complicated and HARD AS FUCK TO MODEL REALISTICALLY.

These other things you're talking about are so much harder in terms of concept AND execution. I've programmed a physics engine, man. That shit is fucked up!

Right. This doesn't excuse the fact that they lied about them. It's rather aggravating. Because they promised these things that are very difficult to do and that made the game sound much more complex than it is in reality. They marketed a rather thin game as one of the most complex games out there.

 

[Russ T]

Right. This doesn't excuse the fact that they lied about them. It's rather aggravating. Because they promised these things that are very difficult to do and that made the game sound much more complex than it is in reality. They marketed a rather thin game as one of the most complex games out there.

Hello, friend! The post that you quoted was not excusing any alleged lies! It was a response to someone else about a different topic!

I understand that you're upset, but I'd appreciate it if you tried to understand the context of posts to which you're responding! Knee-jerk responses are not conducive to good discussion!

Have a nice night! I need to take a nap before I call a Lyft to take me to the airport! ):

 

[Two Words]

"Knee-jerk responses", oh wow.

 

[RevenWolf]

"Knee-jerk responses", oh wow.

Yeah that wasn't really a knee-jerk response at all lol.

TBH this whole fiasco has made me pretty sour towards Hello Games at the moment... They've got a lot to explain/answer and are keeping quiet instead, which in situations like this is never a good sign..

 

[elco]

What's this about a skybox now? Is there proof each star system is wrapped in a skybox of something? You can't seamlessly travel from one star to the next without a warp drive?

 

[Chittagong]

Learning from Molyneux and Spore, I decided to take a wait-and-see approach to this game. It seems I was not entirely misguided to do so.

 

[KingSnake]

Hello, friend! The post that you quoted was not excusing any alleged lies! It was a response to someone else about a different topic!

I understand that you're upset, but I'd appreciate it if you tried to understand the context of posts to which you're responding! Knee-jerk responses are not conducive to good discussion!

Have a nice night! I need to take a nap before I call a Lyft to take me to the airport! ):

It would be so nice to stop assuming things about other people. I'm not upset, it's morning here and I'm drinking my coffee while waiting for a massage. I'm more relaxed than ever.

I wasn't accusing you of anything this time (but I understand that you might be confused and tired from posting so much and so late about this game).

 

[A Link to the Past]

It would be so nice to stop assuming things about other people. I'm not upset, it's morning here and I'm drinking my coffee while waiting for a massage. I'm more relaxed than ever.

I wasn't accusing you of anything this time (but I understand that you might be confused and tired from posting so much and so late about this game).

So you're more relaxed than ever, why do you need a massage? Are you just THAT selfish that you need to steal all of the relaxation!?

 

[Moreche]

NMS sold a dream and delivered a mild nap.
This was the game I thought I'd play for years and I've already deleted it off my HDD.
The only thing Hello Games will be concerned about now is a few patches and then every other format they can push this dissappointment onto, this'll be on Xbox One/Scorpio and iOS by the end of 2017.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

I think every imaginable and unimaginable thing that could be said about this issue has already been said, and as such, our friendly discourse can take a break for now.

If there's significant updates, like statements from the developers that takes us beyond status quo, we'd prefer a new thread at this point.