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News According to E-mails submitted to court by Apple , Tim Sweeney asked Apple for a special deal.

CAB_Life

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mckmas8808

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If you actually read the email, he blatantly stated that he hopes Apple makes the features they requested available to ALL iOS developers. Just read the emails in the OP. I think this is going to be a big problem for Apple.

Reading the replies in here that are instantly dog pilling Epic without digging into the details is depressing.

EDIT: Here, I highlighted it for you...


I was confused as to why the comments here didn't match up to what I saw in the emails. GAF can be horrid at times.
 
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MaulerX

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First let me preface by saying both these companies suck for one reason or another.

But...

After reading these emails I wonder if Apple were better off not releasing them. The emails actually prove that Tim Sweeney is actually advocating for all devs. Not Epic asking for a special deal like Apple or this thread is trying to frame.
 

Gods&Monsters

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If you actually read the email, he blatantly stated that he hopes Apple makes the features they requested available to ALL iOS developers. Just read the emails in the OP. I think this is going to be a big problem for Apple.

Reading the replies in here that are instantly dog pilling Epic without digging into the details is depressing.

EDIT: Here, I highlighted it for you...


Only, he did not. He asked for a better deal for ALL iOS developers. You likely should read things before just believing CNBC's misreporting and Schiller's lies.

I have no particular love for Epic Games, but seeing people siding with Apple over this (or anything, really. Apple is probably the only tech company out there that I would unironically call "anti-consumer") is pretty disgusting.
I was confused as to why the comments here didn't match up to what I saw in the emails. GAF can be horrid at times.
First let me preface by saying both these companies suck for one reason or another.

But...

After reading these emails I wonder if Apple were better off not releasing them. The emails actually prove that Tim Sweeney is actually advocating for all devs. Not Epic asking for a special deal like Apple or this thread is trying to frame.


That literally reads like an afterthought he put there to look like the good guy and you all fall for this? Lol

"Open platform like a PC" well it's not a PC so forget that. Don't get involved with Apple if you don't want to be in a closed ecosystem. It's that simple. He's still getting millions from iOS user anyway even with the restrictions.
 
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MaulerX

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That literally reads like an afterthought he put there to look like the good guy and you all fall for this? Lol

"Open platform like a PC" well it's not a PC so forget that. Don't get involved with Apple if you don't want to be in a closed ecosystem. It's that simple. He's still getting millions from iOS user anyway even with the restrictions.



Well good luck to Apple proving that it was just an "afterthought" statement. Point is that he covered his ass by saying it and it is up to Apple to prove that Sweeney was lying just to get a sweet deal for himself.
 

mckmas8808

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That literally reads like an afterthought he put there to look like the good guy and you all fall for this? Lol

"Open platform like a PC" well it's not a PC so forget that. Don't get involved with Apple if you don't want to be in a closed ecosystem. It's that simple. He's still getting millions from iOS user anyway even with the restrictions.

How do you know it was an afterthought?
 

MrFunSocks

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Dude are we reading the same letters? He repeatedly uses terms like "in principle".. and repeatedly generically asks for Apple to change their "restrictions"... it's plainly obvious he's asking for Apple to change their rules, and not asking for a specific "only for Epic" rule change.
We must not be. Read the June 30 email in the OP.
 

MrFunSocks

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First let me preface by saying both these companies suck for one reason or another.

But...

After reading these emails I wonder if Apple were better off not releasing them. The emails actually prove that Tim Sweeney is actually advocating for all devs. Not Epic asking for a special deal like Apple or this thread is trying to frame.
He literally says in the June 30 email that he wants a special deal for epic lol. He then says epic “would like it” if they then let anyone else get that deal too. They’re 2 separate things.

1. we want thing.
2. It’d be nice if you let others have thing too.

if he wouldn’t have just been satisfied with 1, why even list it? Why not just say that this should be available for everyone and not specifically separate epic from everyone else? Because if Apple gave him 1 he wouldn’t care about 2.

Sweeney isn’t your friend, he’s not advocating for everyone. He’s looking out for number 1, himself.
 

A.Romero

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It's Apple's platform, they didn't change the ToS after gaining momentum (like Epic). They don't need to change anything, specially when the walled garden has been a selling point for them under the argument of security.

I never liked them for the very same reason and it was painful to be stuck with subpar devices and software when Android first launched while the iPhone was ahead of the competition. However, I decided to endure Android at the beginning because it had more options for people that wanted to use advanced features. Eventually it paid off because better devices came to Android and the OS got to be great (at least in my opinion).

Epic could have seen the same back then when they decided to launch Fortnite on mobile platforms. Now they are behaving as if it's something new.

Regardless of how much I dislike Apple I respect their decisions, after all that made them a 2 trillion company. They have zero obligation to change. Obviously users are OK with it and developers might not like it but have been more than happy to do business with them to be able to reach Apple's userbase. Even with those fees, a lot of companies have made a pretty penny working with Apple.

Sorry but I don't see what Apple has to gain by changing their way. It's also not a monopoly as any person can develop an app an publish it... Just as long as they are willing to pay the fees.

Is 30% too much? Maybe but they created a market where there was none before and set the rules. The same with Steam. The only way they are going to change is if devs move to another platform and users follow suit. That is not happening here. Hundreds of millions of people are invested in Apple's ecosystem. That's what that 30% fee get you.

Deal with it or just don't publish your apps there and miss out on that userbase. It's not rocket science.
 
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I'm not a fan of Apple at all, but to be fair if it's their platform, why should they bend over and allow companies like Epic to use it, maximize sales with direct payment, and not have to compensate Apple in any way (digital cut)?

I heard a rumour that car dealerships sell cars in the goodness of their hearts and all sales and profits go direct to the car company.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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We must not be. Read the June 30 email in the OP.
He asks to be allowed to do something; says this could be done via a "side letter or alter it's contract standards" while clearly expressing the preference for the latter (a standards change for everyone.)

That's a fair representation of what Sweeney asked for, including a direct quote.. not "He asked for a special deal" because that has an obvious implication that is an exaggeration. Would Tim Sweeney have been fine with an exemption from rules? Obviously; but we also should't be letting Apple's lawyer's OR Tim Sweeney's gossip effect us. Hell even wording it "Tim Sweeeny's request included option for special deal" would be fair.

The dude is a blowhard and judging by those letters kind of an amateur when it comes to this shit lol.. but what he is asking for is an interesting proposition for consumers.. and would, in fact.. increase consumer choice.
 
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Gods&Monsters

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Apple defense force is pathetic. Even if epic is not a Saint, they are at the right side on this one.

Lol you must think that's what I am after my last reply but I've never owned an iPhone in my life. I had an iPod when they came out and even back then I knew it was shit. You couldn't even access your files without iTunes so I stayed far away from everything Apple after that.

They are a closed ecosystem and always have been for all their products. If you don't like it there are alternatives. Tim knew it before going in but he wanted the exposure of the iOs store/users now that he's big he's asking them to go against their whole business "for the people! (but me first)".

I want him to lose so he doesn't go against Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft next.
 
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waxer

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If I want to sideload epic store I should be allowed same as getting hardware fixed in non apple stores. Same as android. If apple want me to buy off their store then compete and prove your the best.
 
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Dr Bass

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I can't believe the number of people on this site who slam Epic and Sweeney over this. Are any of you software engineers? Do you not understand what is at stake here? Epic is 100% in the right on this one in being able to install whatever software you want. Do you all REALLY like higher prices and less choice? I really don't understand this whole "Apple makes the computer, it can dictate whatever software it wants on it for all eternity!" complete and total horse crap.

Should we not be allowed to install software on our computers? Should car makers be allowed to tell us where we can drive? Should the manufacturer of a hammer tell us what nails we can use and what products we can build with it?

These phones are MORE important to most people than computers. The consumer should be able to install whatever they want on them. That doesn't mean the App Store has to go away. It would sure as hell would improve our choices however. Imagine, being able to have software upgrade licenses instead of endless subscriptions on iOS and Android (if you're not aware of the problem here, look up all the developer acrimony over this and how it harms businesses).
 

Raymo

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Well good luck to Apple proving that it was just an "afterthought" statement. Point is that he covered his ass by saying it and it is up to Apple to prove that Sweeney was lying just to get a sweet deal for himself.
Exactly. The whole email looks like it is carefully worded to be used in a future anti-trust case. Epic knows that Apple wasn't going to simply grant them access to have the ONLY other app store on iOS, installed from a third-party source no less. This was a calculated move to get Apple's response on record. I am a big Apple fan, but I like what Epic is doing here. I don't see how people are criticizing Epic here. Let the court/law investigate if there is wrong doing. Apple is a giant company, they can handle it.
 
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A.Romero

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Lol you must think that's what I am after my last reply but I've never owned an iPhone in my life. I had an iPod when they came out and even back then I knew it was shit. You couldn't even access your files without iTunes so I stayed far away from everything Apple after that.

They are a closed ecosystem and always have been for all their products. If you don't like it there are alternatives. Tim knew it before going in but he wanted the exposure of the iOs store/users now that he's big he's asking them to go against their whole business "for the people! (but me first)".

I want him to lose so he doesn't go against Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft next.

Exactly this. They've always been like this. It's their business model. It's shitty but nobody HAS TO develop for them nor buy iPhones if you don't like it.


I can't believe the number of people on this site who slam Epic and Sweeney over this. Are any of you software engineers? Do you not understand what is at stake here? Epic is 100% in the right on this one in being able to install whatever software you want. Do you all REALLY like higher prices and less choice? I really don't understand this whole "Apple makes the computer, it can dictate whatever software it wants on it for all eternity!" complete and total horse crap.

Should we not be allowed to install software on our computers? Should car makers be allowed to tell us where we can drive? Should the manufacturer of a hammer tell us what nails we can use and what products we can build with it?

These phones are MORE important to most people than computers. The consumer should be able to install whatever they want on them. That doesn't mean the App Store has to go away. It would sure as hell would improve our choices however. Imagine, being able to have software upgrade licenses instead of endless subscriptions on iOS and Android (if you're not aware of the problem here, look up all the developer acrimony over this and how it harms businesses).

While you are right regarding installing your own software, there is no other way Apple would get a cut. Right now you can pay $99 USD a year ($250 if you are a company) and publish your apps on the Appstore. That's nothing. That allows anyone to be able to publish an app even for free because Apple offsets those costs by getting a cut from what people selling stuff are making. The entire iOS ecosystem is designed around this concept. It's the business model that they pretty much invented. If this changes Apple might need to increase the dev sub cost and that would make a higher point of entry for devs reducing the opportunity of innovation.

That said, the fight regarding being free is for the consumers to fight and last time I checked the majority of iPhone/iPad users don't really care about this. I'm sure because they keep buying those products. People wanting to have freedom to install and repair wherever they want have pretty good alternatives in the market and if that's important they have had gone and got those alternatives already.

It's simple, if consumers want freedom they can go to another platform (which happens to be cheaper in a lot of cases). If they don't care about that they can always go to Apple. Same applies for devs.

What's happening here is a company that enjoyed the benefits of a huge userbase from the leading tablet manufacturer no longer wants to pay what it costs to be there. Sorry but to me that's bullshit and I would say the same about any company that tries to do the same, not only Epic.

This is not about consumers. Apple consumers don't care about that... If they did, they wouldn't be using Apple products.

If what Apple does was so easy or worthless there would be even more competitors in the same market space but you know what has happened to most of them.

Despite not liking Apple products I have to side with them here.
 

FStubbs

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It isn't just a matter of the walled garden. Apple has been gouging consumers for years, selling basically the most overpriced hardware on the market and doing literally everything it can to offer less for more. That doesn't apply to Sony and MS.

The sooner it receives a hard blow, the better, and this may just be it.

To be fair, the narrative that iPhones/iPads are weaker than the competition is from a decade ago. Apple's Axx chips are 2 years ahead of Snapdragon/Exynos/Kirin/Tegra/whatever else is out there.
 
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Entroyp

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Epic can fuck off. If people don’t like closed ecosystems there are alternatives. Why should apple give away access to its customers for free?

Should I feel free to go into a walmart and setup my own store inside? And then sue them for monopoly when they kick my ass out?
 

Redlight

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I think the title is misleading. He's asking a deal, sure, but there's no way that any agreement with Apple could be exclusive to Epic. By coming to terms they would've been, effectively, making a deal on behalf of everyone.
 

Nikana

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I think the title is misleading. He's asking a deal, sure, but there's no way that any agreement with Apple could be exclusive to Epic. By coming to terms they would've been, effectively, making a deal on behalf of everyone.

Could be wrong but didn't apple cut deals with other companies like Amazon at one point?
 

Shrap

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If you actually read the email, he blatantly stated that he hopes Apple makes the features they requested available to ALL iOS developers. Just read the emails in the OP. I think this is going to be a big problem for Apple.

Reading the replies in here that are instantly dog pilling Epic without digging into the details is depressing.

EDIT: Here, I highlighted it for you...

Oh fuck off. Seriously. How the fuck is there always someone defending this filthy rich greed driven hypocritical slimeball?

Sweeney's approach was "give it to us first and maybe down the line everyone can get it. But give it to us now."
 

DynamiteCop!

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Tim Sweeney caught lying? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU!!!
 
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Why he speak for all devs? Many of them can’t handle own store, payment system, support... and they will have to compete with big devs and others stores now :/
Or those small devs can go to others store who charge less than 30%.
That would be an epic store!
 
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vaibhavpisal

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Whatever Epic is doing doesn't make much sense.

Hasn't Apple invested and worked hard to create a platform? It wasn't this big always and they should be allowed to enjoy whatever benefits come with it being successful.

Sure Apple and Google now have monopoly over for what is essentially free money, is it such a bad thing?

I don't know what to think of it. Epic sure is going to drain all fortnite money at this rate.
 

gamechanger87

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Exactly. The whole email looks like it is carefully worded to be used in a future anti-trust case. Epic knows that Apple wasn't going to simply grant them access to have the ONLY other app store on iOS, installed from a third-party source no less. This was a calculated move to get Apple's response on record. I am a big Apple fan, but I like what Epic is doing here. I don't see how people are criticizing Epic here. Let the court/law investigate if there is wrong doing. Apple is a giant company, they can handle it.
The email was timed to be sent at COB in Q2 2020 so they could try and claim they asked in Q2. Email was received at 4:00:30. Perfectly timed for after the market closed.

for anyone wondering, a judge will see through the afterthought CYA saying they want everyone to get it too. This isn’t their first rodeo. I’ve been down the path before. Most of these judges have seen a lot of stuff, they don’t give benefit of the doubt.

wouldn’t be surprised to see the judge ask Epic if they would take the special deal if he ordered it but didn’t force it on anyone else in IOS Just to make they try and say in the record they would t have taken it.

EPICs main problem is that they created their own problem. They are literally filing for emergency relief (which requires an incredibly high bar to get granted for something they did). By requesting emergency relief they effectively screw themselves because the judge that had to rule on that (and he won’t grant this) will typically be slotted to be the one to preside. They hate having to issue TROs because you are effectively ruling without giving each side a fair shake. It’s effectively a One sodded case.
 

Gods&Monsters

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How do you know it was an afterthought?

Easy. The whole e-mail is all about Epic making totally unreasonable demands like Epic getting access to create their own Epic store inside iOS store (lol), Epic getting access to payments methods, Epic getting all the cut and zero for Apple, Epic getting all the same security/software from iOs/Apple etc and then they throw that line "oh yeah and do that for everyone else too"

Basically, what is Apple even doing in the iOs store anymore? They should just leave and let Epic and whoever wants to open other stores manage it.
 
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Tschumi

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We're asked to ignore routine lying by the people who should have the highest integrity of all, but be shocked and indignant at this rep? Wacky standards.
 

Halo is Dead

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Tim is the worse type of person. Pretends like he is saving the indy developers and uniting the consumer to fight the big evil crop Apple, when he is just as guilty of greed from both Apple and Steam. He tried to strong arm the market by buying out the competition (exclusive games) while raking in the millions on Fortnite bucks. Fuck him.
 
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theHFIC

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Tim Sweeny wants every developer to have the option to have their own App Store on iPhone like average Joe Sixpack Developer has the infrastructure and foreign investments to create an app store.

I don't want 3rd party app stores on my iPhone. I don't want the option either. Apple's App store can barely keep up with the malicious junk being pushed out but at least it is still light years better than the Google Play dumpster fire. Giving 3rd party app stores access to bare metal iOS and Secure Enclave is a recipe for disaster with minimal savings for me. If you want all that open OS freedom, iOS isn't the platform for you and a move to Android should be considered. On the phone I like my walled garden. On my desktop I like freedom of choice.

What am I going to save? 1 dollar on a 3 dollar app that I buy?
 
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This guy is so greedy that he's sold all most half of his company to Tencent(who is required by Chinese law to hand over all information/data to the CCP)

This guy would sell his own soul

The almost half is the important part though. He is still the majority shareholder, tencent has zero control over the company.
 
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So my question is if Sweeney gets his way...how does Apple make money off say...Fortnite going forward?

Cause it sounds like whats happening here is..You have a product on the shelf in walmart..you and walmart split the proceeds..you got big selling in walmart and now you want to put your own store in walmart where you put all the money in your pocket and leave..thus just occupying space in walmart while not giving them a kick back?

is that whats happening here?..I haven't been following this too tough(I just know it has my niece a little anxious cause she plays the hell out of the game)..but hows Apple profit off of the 3rd party store being offered in their...store?
 
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pasterpl

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Base on some responses here, question;

should epic be able to release epic store on ps5/xbsex independently from Sony/ms official stores and pay Sony/ms nothing?
 
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Same ol G

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Well good luck to Apple proving that it was just an "afterthought" statement. Point is that he covered his ass by saying it and it is up to Apple to prove that Sweeney was lying just to get a sweet deal for himself.
How do you know it was an afterthought?
We must not be. Read the June 30 email in the OP.
Apple defense force is pathetic. Even if epic is not a Saint, they are at the right side on this one.
It doesn't even matter if he's faking it or not.
They agreed with Apples TOS and after gaining acces to that market they break the rules.
I hate Apple but i'm not an idiot, what would you do if someone want's to open a shop in your shop, use your store shelfs but doesn't want to pay rent, this shouldn't even be a discussion.
Epic is not fighting for everybody they are just trying to fill their pockets and are using little kids as their defense force, quite pathetic if you ask me.
 
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Dr.Guru of Peru

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I was confused as to why the comments here didn't match up to what I saw in the emails. GAF can be horrid at times.
Yeah, those e-mails only support Sweeny's narrative. It doesn't seem like most of the posters on the first page read them.
 
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Stuart360

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Isnt what Epic themselves are doing with the Epic Shitstore going against what Sweeney is preaching in the first place?. I mean he talks about open platforms, consumer choice, and better deals for consumers, while moneyhatting exclusivity with games on their Store, and charge as much, and in some cases more, for games compared to rival stores (in The UK anyway).
 
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