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[Skeff]

Yeah, I can see it being something that takes shape more and more a few years in after it is in millions of homes. In much the same way we started to see a shift in their direction in about the middle of this gen.

Hell, even the other day they made a statement saying that they changed some of their policies for now because we were not quite ready for the future. As if we are the ones who are wrong for not wanting to sacrifice our consumer rights and privacy.

You'll be ready soon. It will come in the dash update that's required for Halo 6 in 2016 at the latest IMO.

 

[Gormless Noodle]

Does Kotaku ever go out and find their own stories or do they just wait for GAF to find the news and rewrite it like they did this one? That site is such a hack it's almost embarrassing.

Nope. They're pretty much constantly on here from what I can tell, looking for easy news I guess. GAF does their job for them after all, all they need to do is sensationalize it and they get their clicks.

 

[ironcreed]

You'll be ready soon. It will come in the dash update that's required for Halo 6 in 2016 at the latest IMO.

No, I am pretty sure I will never be ready for the direction they are wanting to go in. I know it will have some great games, but they have burnt the last bridge with me because of all this mess. I have flirted with maybe getting one in a few years, but my reason will not allow it. I can't in my right mind support this.

 

[watership]

? What's wrong with what he said? A large portion of the users here feel the same way. You his cousin or something?

The fundamental misunderstand of his job title bugs me. I get that people don't like what Penello says, but acting like product planning is somehow a dirty corporate undertaking grates me.

 

[James Chilton]

The other way for MS to make use of NUads without any data ever leaving the console is simply to push all of the ads to every console and filter OUT the ads that DO NOT apply to the gamer based on the info stored on the console. Your data never leaves the console but you still have the customised advertising experience.

Just a thought, no evidence that this is what will happen.

 

[Shinta]

Have to say it, I called it, many of us called it, and we were 100% right.

I'll never forget all the debates with people claiming this could never happen when they already confirmed that they were going this way in 2010.

I said from the beginning that this was the #1 reason for including mandatory Kinect and online, especially with TV functionality built in. This was long before PRISM too.

Crow has been served.

They want to monitor every single thing about you. I will never forget all the people saying "but who thinks you're actually interesting enough for people to want to watch you? tin foil hat much?" Yeah ... you know who you are, all of you skeptics. Eat your bird. It's getting cold.

 

[TheD]

Take a good long look in the mirror pal. If you honestly believe otherwise, you're deluding yourself.

And the problem you suggest still is entirely unproven and speculative at best. But hey, whatever can get the boys all riled up right?

My major life decisions are not affected by fucking advertising!
Stop drinking the marketing kool aid!

And WTF do you mean "unproven"?
MS has both fucking patents and statements that fall inline with wanting to use those patents!

I've never implied I want kinect to be "the next big thing" or "want it badly", I've implied I wish to give it a chance to go somewhere instead of just screaming 'give me more power and call it a day'. The original kinect failed in many many ways and now we're presented with a new version to give a go which if successful is infinitely more interesting than simply more processing power.

That being said... I honestly don't really get what you're trying to get it at here. Hardcore gaming is about not wanting things because people can't give reasons for them? So we need reasons to want something (makes sense here) but its not "hardcore gaming" unless we DON'T want it because we DON'T have a reason? I'm sorry, hardcore gaming is entirely about the 'next' thing regardless of what it is (from new engines, to new hardware/tech to new games). If it wasn't why wouldn't we still be playing on our SNES or Atari for that matter? Progression/innovation/some more buzzy words here are what drives hardcore gaming. Whether the 'next thing' succeeds or fails is an entirely different subject.

Kinect 2 shares all the same flaws with kinect 1, higher accuracy will not fix the problems I listed, thus giving it "a chance" will not do anything!

And what I said (maybe not in the clearest terms), is that hardcore gamers are not about blindly falling over themselves for a product that has proved itself not to be good, no matter what people (that can not give a valid reason to why it is good) say.

 

[Albert Penello]

I really was understanding of Albert Penello's early days, it seemed a breath of fresh air after all the horrific Microsoft PR. But it is now becoming increasingly clear his goal may have in fact been to simply synchronize a PR message which attempted to muddy PS4's indisputable significant technical advantage...

<shortened for space>

I'm sorry to have disappointed you.

Have I been wrong sometimes? Sure.

Have features/information changed after I've posted? They have.

In every case, I've owned up and explained every single change. I've continued to come answer questions, and largely stayed out of the personal fray.

It would be super easy (and misleading) to list everything I said which ended up being wrong, without finding the post/posts where I also came back and explained.

The idea that I have flat-out lied or tried to misdirect people here seems far-reaching. But that's fine if you believe it. I've explained the background on my history multiple times, and I can't control what understanding/lack of understanding people have about my role. I've said many times I don't know every aspect of the program and sometimes I have to ask.

Nothing I said yesterday is inconsistent with Yusuf's interview. People appear to be combining different parts of the interview to try and make another point.

Clearly Yusuf is talking about the TV and NFL stuff in terms of "putting together in a unifying way" It's also clear that anything around using Kinect was "hinted at" and all the remaining comments come from the author.

And finally - he's talking to "Advertising Age" so it would be somewhat obvious he would be talking about advertising type stuff.

I'll reiterate what I said yesterday. The Kinect system already has the ability to detect engagement. We don't track it. We only track Voice if you opt-in. Kinect 2.0 has improved, but not completely changed, the type of data available and you can see we've done very little with it, and it's easy to find a website where we explain in great detail, and in layman's terms, what we do with the Kinect data.

And again, IF any of this type of biometric data were to ever be used for advertising, you could expect like today we'd make it optional to the user. And of course, on top of all of this, we allow it to be disconnected unless the game/experience requires it.

If you look at the facts we make available, and OUR history with Kinect, it would not support that we're going to be doing anything with the data unless it's very clear to the user.

back to your regularly scheduled posting.

 

[SwiftDeath]

And again, IF any of this type of biometric data were to ever be used for advertising, you could expect like today we'd make it optional to the user. And of course, on top of all of this, we allow it to be disconnected unless the game/experience requires it.

If you look at the facts we make available, and OUR history with Kinect, it would not support that we're going to be doing anything with the data unless it's very clear to the user.

Thanks for responding Albert

How will kinect and XB1's use of our data be shown to the end-user though?

Will it be buried in the EULA, will a pop-up appear everytime you request access, will there be settings somewhere that control this on an overall or case-by-case basis?

Without buying the console will it be clear how exactly our data will be used?

 

[famousmortimer]

I'll reiterate what I said yesterday. The Kinect system already has the ability to detect engagement. We don't track it. We only track Voice if you opt-in. Kinect 2.0 has improved, but not completely changed, the type of data available and you can see we've done very little with it, and it's easy to find a website where we explain in great detail, and in layman's terms, what we do with the Kinect data.

And again, IF any of this type of biometric data were to ever be used for advertising, you could expect like today we'd make it optional to the user. And of course, on top of all of this, we allow it to be disconnected unless the game/experience requires it.

Part of what i've been hearing is that the data doesn't actually have to leave the console. You guys push all of the ads to every console and the console itself crunches the biometric data to figure out what ads to show to you.

So.....?

 

[Albert Penello]

Thanks for responding Albert

How will kinect and XB1's use of our data be shown to the end-user though?

Will it be buried in the EULA, will a pop-up appear everytime you request access, will there be settings somewhere that control this on an overall or case-by-case basis?

Without buying the console will it be clear how exactly our data will be used?

My *guess* (and I say *guess* again since nothing beyond voice is implemented) is that personally identifiable information will have settings dialogs, much like there is today.

 

[mrklaw]

I wonder if this has also shaped MS' entertainment positioning, and why they are focusing on liveTV rather than supporting DVRs? Because it is simpler to know what ad is being plays based on time (and the channel you're watching), whereas on a DVR MS would have no idea what you are watching, or if you're FFWDing the ads

I am surprised by the costs though. On kindle you can opt into a 'with ads' model and get a clear discount on the device. Yet on Xbox I see no suggestion that any of that cost is subsidised by advertising - almost the opposite.




Thinking about it, if the TV advertising stuff is most invasive for you - couldn't you just not hook up the HDMI passthrough and use your normal TV guide? Xbox would then have no idea what you're watching.
Unless it uses audio fingerprinting to recognise the shows/ads, but that isn't likely

 

[mrklaw]

You want me to point out the similarities between two cameras/recording devices attached to internet-connected machines? I would have thought that was self-evident.

Of course there are differences, pretty important ones, and that's where the bone of contention lies. It's similar to the 'it's just like Steam' comparison in that, yes, while there are some ways in which it's like Steam, there are also major important ways in which the Xbone's original setup was different to, and significantly worse than, Steam.

The point being, if your worry with Kinect is that you don't want a camera pointing at you that you think might be spying for the NSA or whatever, then it is legitimate to point out that you probably already do have a camera pointed at you, attached to a device with a GPS, microphone, etc. that you carry about with you, which in theory could be used in exactly the same way.

Conversely, if your worry is about the ways in which Microsoft will actually use the Kinect system, that is, to try to get you to 'interact' with adverts in a way that no sane consumer could possibly want, or automatically detect your presence in the room so that it can serve you ads that it thinks you care about, then obviously the situations are not the same or similar, because while in theory Apple (for instance) could use the iSight camera in my iMac and MacBook to do exactly that, they haven't, and a reasonable inference from their past behaviour is that they wont.

I hope this answers your question.

[edit] NB: I said it's not an illegitimate comparison; a comparison doesn't mean that you are insisting on similarly. Comparison can mean highlighting and helping to clarify differences.

The fundamental difference is that you can't reliably count on your laptop/smartphone camera pointing at you while you watch TV (still by far the most expensive advertising and therefore most valuable to understand who is watching)

Smartphones and laptops I'm sure are tracking your journey through the various apps you use and the websites you visit. And they can assume you are paying attention because you're interacting with those pages and choosing new ones. Maybe they could in the future have some tech using the camera where they can tell if you are looking at the banner ads, but that seems unlikely right now

 

[Albert Penello]

Part of what i've been hearing is that the data doesn't actually have to leave the console. You guys push all of the ads to every console and the console itself crunches the biometric data to figure out what ads to show to you.

So.....?

So... I'd have to wrap my head around what you're saying. Is the suggestion that we would locally track every activity you're doing while engaging with the console, and then we would send every ad that we make down locally?

That seems very speculative, and I would say impractical at best.

We don't even store more than a handful of voice phrases locally, and all the dynamic voice searches are calculated online, let alone hammering the console to process the scenario you're thinking of...

 

[bigboss370]

Part of what i've been hearing is that the data doesn't actually have to leave the console. You guys push all of the ads to every console and the console itself crunches the biometric data to figure out what ads to show to you.

So.....?

whoa..

 

[Chobel]

<shortened for space>
I'm sorry to have disappointed you.
Have I been wrong sometimes? Sure.
Have features/information changed after I've posted? They have.
In every case, I've owned up and explained every single change. I've continued to come answer questions, and largely stayed out of the personal fray.
It would be super easy (and misleading) to list everything I said which ended up being wrong, without finding the post/posts where I also came back and explained.
The idea that I have flat-out lied or tried to misdirect people here seems far-reaching. But that's fine if you believe it. I've explained the background on my history multiple times, and I can't control what understanding/lack of understanding people have about my role. I've said many times I don't know every aspect of the program and sometimes I have to ask.
Nothing I said yesterday is inconsistent with Yusuf's interview. People appear to be combining different parts of the interview to try and make another point.
Clearly Yusuf is talking about the TV and NFL stuff in terms of "putting together in a unifying way" It's also clear that anything around using Kinect was "hinted at" and all the remaining comments come from the author.
And finally - he's talking to "Advertising Age" so it would be somewhat obvious he would be talking about advertising type stuff.
I'll reiterate what I said yesterday. The Kinect system already has the ability to detect engagement. We don't track it. We only track Voice if you opt-in. Kinect 2.0 has improved, but not completely changed, the type of data available and you can see we've done very little with it, and it's easy to find a website where we explain in great detail, and in layman's terms, what we do with the Kinect data.
And again, IF any of this type of biometric data were to ever be used for advertising, you could expect like today we'd make it optional to the user. And of course, on top of all of this, we allow it to be disconnected unless the game/experience requires it.
If you look at the facts we make available, and OUR history with Kinect, it would not support that we're going to be doing anything with the data unless it's very clear to the user.
back to your regularly scheduled posting.

Is there a special APIs for advertisers?

 

[famousmortimer]

So... I'd have to wrap my head around what you're saying. Is the suggestion that we would locally track every activity you're doing while engaging with the console, and then we would send every ad that we make down locally?

That seems very speculative, and I would say impractical at best.

We don't even store more than a handful of voice phrases locally, and all the dynamic voice searches are calculated online, let alone hammering the console to process the scenario you're thinking of...

No, definitely not "every" activity. Just the activities that you care about. Say I'm watching a TV show and a Toyota commercial comes on and the Kinect reads the biometric data and determines it affected me positively.

Later when deciding which ad to feed my machine the machine gets a master list, it picks Toyota because it knows that I'm interested. Targeted advertising in a huge way. Advertisers would pay a TON for that. It's also not complex for the Kinect, Xbox One, or your servers. It also never sends my data off the machine.


I'm not pulling this out of thin air.

 

[Albert Penello]

That's the problem: You always say "as far as I know", "my guess", yada yada yada and then you start to sugarcoat everything. And a couple of days later someone of Microsoft comes out and says the opposite.

When you don't know the answer to the question, why do you give an answer anyway?

For two reasons.

First, if I say nothing then people take the silence as some sort of affirmation / denial. Basically whatever fits the POV of the person asking the question.

Secondly - I will ALWAYS caveat what I say, whether I know the answer 100% for sure, 75% sure or 10% sure and that's because I can't predict the future. Somebody, somewhere, in some part of the company may do or say something different.

Even if I was the final decision maker, it would be stupid of me to not assume that a decision can change.

So I'd rather come on and share what I know, even if it's imperfect. And even if it means dealing with people who doubt, despise, or disagree.

Not having the 100% correct answer doesn't stop 99% of the posts on the internet. Why would it stop mine?

 

[Shinta]

And finally - he's talking to "Advertising Age" so it would be somewhat obvious he would be talking about advertising type stuff.

And yet, you would think the NSA might want to find out what 80 million living rooms are doing and saying, and how they react to the news, political ads, state of the union addresses, and political debates, or monitor for keywords for the DEA or Homeland Security.

And if they wanted to, you guys can't legally say no, and it's been that way since 2007.

The crazy thing is, people must think I'm exaggerating, because it just sounds so crazy when you spell it out. But that's where we find ourselves now.

 

[nomis]

Part of what i've been hearing is that the data doesn't actually have to leave the console. You guys push all of the ads to every console and the console itself crunches the biometric data to figure out what ads to show to you.

So.....?

If this was really true, as overly convoluted as it is for very little gain on Microsoft's part, and the data never actually leaves the console, why on earth would people be wary of this scenario:

Console plays ad X

Kinect sees user is disengaged

Console lessens ad X's frequency

If the data is truly never outgoing on the network, how is this a breach of privacy? I'm not saying that the actual engagement data isn't literally a goldmine to Microsoft's advertising partners, and I'm not saying it's likely that they'd be able to help themselves from partaking in the mountain of money it would create.

 

[DietRob]

Wowza. Completely solidified in my decision to never get this machine. I didn't appreciate the draconian policies at launch. I thought it was very shady how those draconian policies were walked back behind PR talk and now "guesses" from Albert Penello.

This is not something that anyone on the inside with knowledge has 'guesses' about. I'm having a really hard time believing that these ideas and the implementation of them haven't been very closely studied. A guess? Really? I think not.

I have a certainty. A certainty that one of these devices will never enter my home. Won't be getting the optional camera for the PS4 either. Gross.

Edit: Thanks Mort for pulling the curtain and shedding the light that you did on this situation. You've got a new subscriber.

 

[Barzul]

EDITED because we wanna stay friendly.

Who is NeoGAF?

I see you edited that.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Part of what i've been hearing is that the data doesn't actually have to leave the console. You guys push all of the ads to every console and the console itself crunches the biometric data to figure out what ads to show to you.

So.....?

Is that even possible? Wouldn't that take up a lot of resources and mean the console would constantly be downloading ads and the console would constantly be working to show you the ads that are suited to your usage/tastes?

Is that what you're saying the reserved memory, etc are doing in the background?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

NeoGAF doesn't believe you anymore, Albert. Go home.

....

Embarrassing.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

For two reasons.

First, if I say nothing then people take the silence as some sort of affirmation / denial. Basically whatever fits the POV of the person asking the question.

Secondly - I will ALWAYS caveat what I say, whether I know the answer 100% for sure, 75% sure or 10% sure and that's because I can't predict the future. Somebody, somewhere, in some part of the company may do or say something different.

Even if I was the final decision maker, it would be stupid of me to not assume that a decision can change.

So I'd rather come on and share what I know, even if it's imperfect. And even if it means dealing with people who doubt, despise, or disagree.

Not having the 100% correct answer doesn't stop 99% of the posts on the internet. Why would it stop mine?

But Albert, sure a policy may someday change, but surely at MS you guys are all on the same page right? I mean we are not talking about what MS may be doing with the console coming out in 8 years. We are asking questions about a product you guys will be releasing in less than two months. How hard is it to have a policy and just implement it? And to be able to communicate that policy clearly. Do you see why people here are having a hard time with this?

 

[famousmortimer]

If this was really true, as overly convoluted as it is for very little gain on Microsoft's part, and the data never actually leaves the console, why on earth would people be wary of this scenario:

Console plays ad X

Kinect sees user is disengaged

Console lessens ad X's frequency

If the data is truly never outgoing on the network, how is this a breach of privacy?

It's a breach of privacy to feed me ads based on anything, whether it's computated on my console or in some server farm in bolivia.

It's not rare... Google's entire company is based off this model, and Microsoft is heading in that direction as well. Facebook is also. The day I got engaged 4 years ago every ad was about wedding shit. It happens all of the time and is unavoidable. But it *is* a breach of privacy.


But beyond being a breach of privacy, if it's actually reading biometric data that is some seriously scary shit. I recommend reading the book The Science of Fear by Daniel Gardner. The focus is obviously about creating fear in humans but it exhaustively cites hundreds of studies about how different mechanisms are used to basically fuck with us. When you have a camera in your house that can tell whether you are happy or sad and read your heartbeat you are cracking the window open for them to come inside. This isn't to say we have no control over ourselves... of course we do - but this is more than a nudge in a direction.

People like to think that advertising has no affect on them because the idea that it does is rather depressing. The sad truth is that it does. On everyone. A lot. And once we get into biometric data it's going to start veering into scary.

 

[nomis]

Is that even possible? Wouldn't that take up a lot of resources and mean the console would constantly be downloading ads and the console would constantly be working to show you the ads that are suited to your usage/tastes?

All this effort and processing, and what would the net gain be for Microsoft and it's advertising partners? If they aren't lying and don't compile the metrics to be sold back to the advertisers... pretty much nothing.

Oh, but we get ads that we're slightly less bored of on the dashboard.

 

[nomis]

It's a breach of privacy to feed me ads based on anything, whether it's computated on my console or in some server farm in bolivia.

It's not rare... Google's entire company is based off this model, and Microsoft is heading in that direction as well. Facebook is also. The day I got engaged 4 years ago every ad was about wedding shit. It happens all of the time and is unavoidable. But it *is* a breach of privacy.


But beyond being a breach of privacy, if it's actually reading biometric data that is some seriously scary shit. I recommend reading the book The Science of Fear by Daniel Gardner. The focus is obviously about creating fear in humans but it exhaustively cites hundreds of studies about how different mechanisms are used to basically fuck with us. When you have a camera in your house that can tell whether you are happy or sad and read your heartbeat you are cracking the window open for them to come inside. This isn't to say we have no control over ourselves... of course we do - but this is more than a nudge in a direction.

People like to think that advertising has no affect on them because the idea that it does is rather depressing. The sad truth is that it does. On everyone. A lot. And once we get into biometric data it's going to start veering into scary.

I completely agree that the whole infrared camera reading-your-pulse thing, in the context of advertising, is nightmare fuel. But without a constant outgoing connection to a server crunching that data and feeding something highly targeted in the vein of google ads, I'm above all skeptical of whether it would even be worth it to Microsoft to implement it.

 

[Barzul]

Can Kinect 1.0 detect facial expressions or biometrics other than voice?

 

[nomis]

Can Kinect 1.0 detect facial expressions or biometrics other than voice?

Skeleton man is pretty much the extent of that 480p camera's capability.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Not surprised not many ppl want bone compared to PS4 who won't do all this data mining advertising stuff. Really stark difference between the two and how they approach their userbases.

 

[Furyous]

I think we're blowing this out of proportion because the console isn't on store shelves. I'd love to see how this information flies in foreign countries during the launch window.

There hasto be a bright side to this...

*searches*

There's no way Microsoft can put Netflix behind a paywall.

 

[Chobel]

Can Kinect 1.0 detect facial expressions or biometrics other than voice?

Not implemented in hardware like Kinect 2 but I think It could be done by software.

 

[famousmortimer]

Is that even possible? Wouldn't that take up a lot of resources and mean the console would constantly be downloading ads and the console would constantly be working to show you the ads that are suited to your usage/tastes?

Is that what you're saying the reserved memory, etc are doing in the background?

I followed up with a slightly less vague version of how I'm told it works. It's not nearly as intensive as it sounds.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85140778&postcount=672


Picture it like this.

Toyota and Microsoft have a deal for nuADs (they actually do... but this is make believe for now).

Toyota is showing a commercial nationwide during American Idol or some huge ass show. American Idol is fine. It's showing the commercial at a specific time.

During that time the Kinect reads your biometric data. It see's what you like in the commercial, what you don't, etc. Say it shows a number of cars and your heart rate and skin color rise when it shows the truck.

The next day when calling to the server for dashboard ads toyota sends out a masterlist with 5 ads (each with a specific car they showed). The biometric data is crunched locally that I am excited by the truck so it calls back to the server to download that ad. It's not sending my biometric data, just what ad to show me. That's the distinction.

Or if the ads are small enough, like a dashboard video, it can easily send all 5. That's not a big file size at all. So then *no* data at all needs to be sent out.


This isn't very much work for the kinect, their servers or the advertisers. And it's a level of focused advertising that people will pay A LOT of money for.


And Albert, I don't really expect you to know who I am, but let's just say things I've posted here in the past, regarding DRM, your E3 lineup and other various things before they were public knowledge that magically became true. This isn't just pie in the sky tinfoil hat shit.

Spoiler

Though i still don't know if I was wrong about League of Legends being a Xbox console exclusive or if you just aren't ready to announce it yet. This has been bugging me since April!

 

[Night Angel]

Not having the 100% correct answer doesn't stop 99% of the posts on the internet. Why would it stop mine?

Because you aren't 99% of posters on the internet. You are in a position of power/authority, and people who read your posts read them (or used to, anyway) with the expectation that someone in your position is correct and knows what he's talking about. When you post misleading information or outright lies, many will believe you implicitly because someone at your level should know more about what's going on than pretty much anyone else. By posting speculation and passing it off as fact (not that you are doing it in this particular instance, mind you), you are, in my mind, abusing the trust of your readers.

If you don't know something, don't make something up. Just say "I don't know" and move on. People may take your silence however they wish... It can't be any worse than what has happened almost every time you've posted about the power difference, anyway.

 

[Albert Penello]

But Albert, sure a policy may someday change, surely at MS you guys are all on the same page right? I mean we are not talking about what MS may be doing with the console coming out in 8 years. We are asking questions about a product you guys will be releasing in less than two months. How hard is it to have a policy and just implement it? And to be able to communicate that policy clearly. Do you see why people here are having a hard time with this?

We actually have a very clear policy I stated yesterday: the only biometric data we collect is voice samples if you opt in. That's it. Since anything else is purely speculative, my answers are equally speculative.

Every other question people are asking is stuff that isn't happening. So my best answer is to look at how we deal with similar situations today as a decent indicator. In the case of Kinect today, we have lots of information out about what we do.

 

[HariKari]

If you look at the facts we make available, and OUR history with Kinect, it would not support that we're going to be doing anything with the data unless it's very clear to the user.

This is a laughable redirect, considering Microsoft's recent history with customer data. Are we pretending that PRISM never happened?

 

[Chobel]

Spoiler

Though i still don't know if I was wrong about League of Legends being a Xbox console exclusive or if you just aren't ready to announce it yet. This has been bugging me since April!

This will be big if true.

 

[Barzul]

This will be big if true.

Yeah it'd be like Minecraft but even bigger since it's f2p.

 

[Shinta]

This is a laughable redirect, considering Microsoft's recent history with customer data. Are we pretending that PRISM never happened?

Exactly. This is so much bigger than videogames. Some congressmen probably would be interested to know exactly what this advertising data is, how its obtained, and what kind of guaranteed safeguards are in place to protect people's privacy.

It's a pretty serious issue. It's disappointing that its ignored to this extent, especially given recent events.

 

[Barzul]

I followed up with a slightly less vague version of how I'm told it works. It's not nearly as intensive as it sounds.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85140778&postcount=672


Picture it like this.

Toyota and Microsoft have a deal for nuADs (they actually do... but this is make believe for now).

Toyota is showing a commercial nationwide during American Idol or some huge ass show. American Idol is fine. It's showing the commercial at a specific time.

During that time the Kinect reads your biometric data. It see's what you like in the commercial, what you don't, etc. Say it shows a number of cars and your heart rate and skin color rise when it shows the truck.

The next day when calling to the server for dashboard ads toyota sends out a masterlist with 5 ads (each with a specific car they showed). The biometric data is crunched locally that I am excited by the truck so it calls back to the server to download that ad. It's not sending my biometric data, just what ad to show me. That's the distinction.

Or if the ads are small enough, like a dashboard video, it can easily send all 5. That's not a big file size at all. So then *no* data at all needs to be sent out.


This isn't very much work for the kinect, their servers or the advertisers. And it's a level of focused advertising that people will pay A LOT of money for.


And Albert, I don't really expect you to know who I am, but let's just say things I've posted here in the past, regarding DRM, your E3 lineup and other various things before they were public knowledge that magically became true. This isn't just pie in the sky tinfoil hat shit.

Spoiler

Though i still don't know if I was wrong about League of Legends being a Xbox console exclusive or if you just aren't ready to announce it yet. This has been bugging me since April!

If you can elaborate would a scenario like this be opt in or not? To me it still sounds like they're collecting my biometric data. Sending my response to something so it can download targeted ads, is collecting my data i.e. those specific ads were only downloaded because my reactions are recorded, if they weren't it wouldn't know which of those cars I liked. Can't really see it any other way. Couldn't MS store oh he liked that pickup truck, send him ads with hunting gear (or something related). If it is opt-in, I don't care then. People should read what they sign up for, impatience is not an excuse in my book.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

We actually have a very clear policy I stated yesterday: the only biometric data we collect is voice samples if you opt in. That's it. Since anything else is purely speculative, my answers are equally speculative.

Every other question people are asking is stuff that isn't happening. So my best answer is to look at how we deal with similar situations today as a decent indicator. In the case of Kinect today, we have lots of information out about what we do.

Thank you Albert

 

[nomis]

The next day when calling to the server for dashboard ads toyota sends out a masterlist with 5 ads (each with a specific car they showed). The biometric data is crunched locally that I am excited by the truck so it calls back to the server to download that ad. It's not sending my biometric data, just what ad to show me. That's the distinction.

There IS NO distinction, no semantic argument that Microsoft could make. Sending your biometric data that you were excited by the truck, and sending out a request for only a truck ad because that's what your biometric data indicated would be most pertinent... is the exact same thing.

 

[SwiftDeath]

You know when there was the big hub bub about NSA spying on us through kinect I was always far more worried about the advertising potential of the kinect

Seems like I was correct to worry

At least now I can choose to never attach it

Not sure why I'd pay for it though

 

[Albert Penello]

Because you aren't 99% of posters on the internet. You are in a position of power/authority, and people who read your posts read them (or used to, anyway) with the expectation that someone in your position is correct and knows what he's talking about. When you post misleading information or outright lies, many will believe you implicitly because someone at your level should know more about what's going on than pretty much anyone else. By posting speculation and passing it off as fact (not that you are doing it in this particular instance, mind you), you are, in my mind, abusing the trust of your readers.

If you don't know something, don't make something up. Just say "I don't know" and move on. People may take your silence however they wish... It can't be any worse than what has happened almost every time you've posted about the power difference, anyway.

And even in my position, things can change. Things that were a fact yesterday may not be tomorrow.

When people ask me questions about things that might happen, the whole point of having me post here is to share the thinking process. So I say things like "my guess" specifically so nobody thinks I'm trying to pass that off as anything but speculation.

As I've said many times. I don't know every detail about every part of the program.

 

[famousmortimer]

There IS NO distinction, no semantic argument that Microsoft could make. Sending your biometric data that you were excited by the truck, and sending out a request for only a truck ad because that's what your biometric data indicated would be most pertinent... is the exact same thing.

I agree that it's the exact same thing. People using pr speak would not agree. We aren't talking legal here, just whether MS PR is telling the truth. In their eyes they are.


And like I said, if it's a focused thing they can easily send all of the ads. You don't think Toyota would pay big money to send an ads to my TV knowing that the ability to pick the best ad from the bunch is there?


And this is just the start. Much like their revised drm stance this is open to change in the future. Not sending biometric data in Nov /13 doesn't mean they won't change their mind in Nov/15


All of that said... drop the kinect and drop the price accordingly and Ms will have a customer in me.

 

[killatopak]

This will be big if true.

Amazing if true. Would make good use of cloud.

 

[Barzul]

And even in my position, things can change. Things that were a fact yesterday may not be tomorrow.

When people ask me questions about things that might happen, the whole point of having me post here is to share the thinking process. So I say things like "my guess" specifically so nobody thinks I'm trying to pass that off as anything but speculation.

As I've said many times. I don't know every detail about every part of the program.

I'd rather you post what you know even if others disagree with it.

 

[Shinta]

According to The Guardian, Microsoft was the first big company that joined the PRISM program. "That is purely speculative" is probably not a satisfying answer for many of us.

People shouldn't really accept anything less than a full congressional investigation, with teams of consumer advocate groups and lawyers combing through their Kinect plans with a fine tooth comb.

Sony had to speak to congress about their poor defense against hackers. This seems far bigger.

 

[Barzul]

People shouldn't really accept anything less than a full congressional investigation, with teams of consumer advocate groups and lawyers combing through their Kinect plans with a fine tooth comb.

Sony had to speak to congress about their poor defense against hackers. This seems far bigger.

It's not bigger because it hasn't happened yet. How do you have a congressional hearing for something that isn't released yet?