AFL-CIO now promoting full blown Communism

StormCell

Member
Dec 11, 2018
432
340
170
But is he completely wrong?

I happen to think we are living by an outdated employment system. I can see "seizing the means of production" by "we the people" and from "corporations are people, friend" because I think we're simply not getting the very best deal that we can for our skills and time. Unfortunately, we aren't banded together the same way the rich are. :)

What we need are a lot more vesting interests in company profits. And I don't mean non-preferred interests, either.
 
Last edited:

merlinevo

Neo Member
Apr 28, 2019
33
52
75
But is he completely wrong?

I happen to think we are living by an outdated employment system. I can see "seizing the means of production" by "we the people" and from "corporations are people, friend" because I think we're simply not getting the very best deal that we can for our skills and time. Unfortunately, we aren't banded together the same way the rich are. :)

What we need are a lot more vesting interests in company profits. And I don't mean non-preferred interests, either.
Employers decide how much to pay for your perceived skills and time, not the other way around. They are the one taking the risk of hiring the employee afterall.

The Union are probably gearing up for a future fight with regards to companies and organizations shifting to automation and AI, which would eliminate many of these unionized jobs. Service, physical labor, and even semi skilled jobs are being replaced by automation and AI and the unions know it. By fighting for workers rights and higher stakes at the meeting table, they are essentially delaying and preventing companies from moving toward efficiency and streamlining operation. Automation and AI are the enemies of unions, and they are scared to death of the impending change.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cosmogony

StormCell

Member
Dec 11, 2018
432
340
170
Employers decide how much to pay for your perceived skills and time, not the other way around. They are the one taking the risk of hiring the employee afterall.

The Union are probably gearing up for a future fight with regards to companies and organizations shifting to automation and AI, which would eliminate many of these unionized jobs. Service, physical labor, and even semi skilled jobs are being replaced by automation and AI and the unions know it. By fighting for workers rights and higher stakes at the meeting table, they are essentially delaying and preventing companies from moving toward efficiency and streamlining operation. Automation and AI are the enemies of unions, and they are scared to death of the impending change.
As they should be.

None of this changes my belief that we ought to change the structure of compensation. I don't want to focus on how the stuff I'm working on right now is going to put a lot of you out of work some day. I'd rather us focus on how to get us great workers and creators into the profit stream for the companies we're propping up. ;)
 
  • Thoughtful
  • Like
Reactions: Cybrwzrd and MB1

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
Haha I'm loving this as a communist.
Seriously, can we stop pretending now that these people aren't communists?

What more needs to happen?
Psssstttttttt most Americans screwed by their employers agree with us.
 
Last edited:

Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
Dec 7, 2008
31,997
3,263
1,100
the working class have no business owning the means of production, they lack the requisite skills to manage and see the bigger picture

i'll never understand these means of production obsessions, goddamn go start your own business if you desire capital
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: pramod and Oner

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
the working class have no business owning the means of production, they lack the requisite skills to manage and see the bigger picture

i'll never understand these means of production obsessions, goddamn go start your own business if you desire capital
Oh you mean winning the genetic lottery, sorry the rich inherited their wealth. And to be fair they need to go back to 1960s marginal tax rates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cybrwzrd

Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
Dec 7, 2008
31,997
3,263
1,100
Oh you mean winning the genetic lottery, sorry the rich inherited their wealth. And to be fair they need to go back to 1960s marginal tax rates.
yes inheritance is a universal time tested concept, ideas and skills are passed through generations, people earn their keep and pass it on

that's what genes do, they pass our hopes and dreams to the future through our children

if the rich inherit wealth then they also inherit contracts, loaned and borrowed money, hired employees, owned assets and payed taxes, business systems that benefit from
the kinda torch passing that makes useful a grandfather passing his knowledge to his son, and his sons

raising marginal rates will not squeeze the elite, all you're doing is hurting doctors and lawyers and engineers, coastal elites too

income or gain rate adjustments are the better approach, as the elite's money isn't in labor, but capital

basically better jobs, better job benefits, better wages

we're not living in the 60s any more
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: dhatt1

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
yes inheritance is a universal time tested concept, ideas and skills are passed through generations, people earn their keep and pass it on

that's what genes do, they pass our hopes and dreams to the future through our children

if the rich inherit wealth then they also inherit contracts, loaned and borrowed money, hired employees, owned assets and payed taxes, business systems that benefit from
the kinda torch passing that makes useful a grandfather passing his knowledge to his son, and his sons

raising marginal rates will not squeeze the elite, all you're doing is hurting doctors and lawyers and engineers, coastal elites too

income or gain rate adjustments are the better approach, as the elite's money isn't in labor, but capital

basically better jobs, better job benefits, better wages

we're not living in the 60s any more
Nah, raise the marginal tax rates. have a wealth tax, and start taxing Wall St transactions. I want the whole kit and caboodle.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Cybrwzrd

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
3,064
3,644
250
Oh you mean winning the genetic lottery, sorry the rich inherited their wealth. And to be fair they need to go back to 1960s marginal tax rates.
Why are communists so stupid? This ideology breeds arrogance in people who know nothing.

The vast majority of business are not funded by inheritance. If you want capital, start a business or make simple investments


Haha I'm loving this as a communist.

Psssstttttttt most Americans screwed by their employers agree with us.
Which is why congress is overflowing with communists...
 

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
Why are communists so stupid? This ideology breeds arrogance in people who know nothing.

The vast majority of business are not funded by inheritance. If you want capital, start a business or make simple investments




Which is why congress is overflowing with communists...
Hahahahaha I wish, Sanders is a Soc Dem. Only a couple of elected officials consider themselves commies and they're pretty much in the local level.
 

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
Why are communists so stupid? This ideology breeds arrogance in people who know nothing.

The vast majority of business are not funded by inheritance. If you want capital, start a business or make simple investments
Nah seems like you are. Piketty stated roughly 60% of America's wealth is inherited, meaning most of America's riches are owned by people who didn't work for them.
 

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
History says you will

Okay.

Just to be clear, USSR is communism, right? You aren't going to prop up the Russians now, and then throw them under the bus later with some classic "it wasn't real communism" excuse
Like capitalist who say crony capitalism isn't real capitalism? Let me just say this, Russia was communist but Stalin was bad. We would have seen a better communist state if the CIA kept their mitts off of Central and South America. They have a tendency to depose of democratically elected leaders.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chaos789

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
9,754
16,724
690
USA
dunpachi.com
Like capitalist who say crony capitalism isn't real capitalism? Let me just say this, Russia was communist but Stalin was bad. We would have seen a better communist state if the CIA kept their mitts off of Central and South America. They have a tendency to depose of democratically elected leaders.
Why do you join GAF specifically to stir up high-school-tier communist rhetoric in the Politics board? :pie_thinking:
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
3,064
3,644
250
Nah seems like you are. Piketty stated roughly 60% of America's wealth is inherited, meaning most of America's riches are owned by people who didn't work for them.
Is that "60% of wealth" locked in Scrooge's vault? Or is it circulating throughout the economy via investment and credit? Business owners (we'll call them capatalists, for short) go out and get loans, they pay back those loans with interest.

That is not "starting with inherited funds". Anyone can obtain capital, it isn't the fucking holy grail
 

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
Is that "60% of wealth" locked in Scrooge's vault? Or is it circulating throughout the economy via investment and credit? Business owners (we'll call them capatalists, for short) go out and get loans, they pay back those loans with interest.

That is not "starting with inherited funds". Anyone can obtain capital, it isn't the fucking holy grail
Please, there is a difference between Bezos who got a loan from his parents and someone taking a loan out from a bank. And if you don't realize that then you're being disingenuous.
 
Last edited:

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
3,064
3,644
250
Please, there is a difference between Bezos who got a loan from his parents and someone taking a loan out from a bank. And if you don't realize that then you're being disingenuous.
No, there isn't. Sorry if that bursts the commie bubble, but the reality is capital is everywhere in this country. All I have to do is walk outside to see how bankrupt your ideology is?
 

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
No, there isn't. Sorry if that bursts the commie bubble, but the reality is capital is everywhere in this country. All I have to do is walk outside to see how bankrupt your ideology is?
Oh you mean when 40% of Americans who can't afford a $400 emergency. https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/22/pf/emergency-expenses-household-finances/index.html

When the CEO of Gofundme is stating that they never wanted their platform to be a fundraising site for the publics medical costs. https://khn.org/news/gofundme-ceo-gigantic-gaps-in-health-system-showing-up-in-crowdfunding/
 
Last edited:

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
Uh huh. "Long time lurker, first time poster" who hops right into Politics. :messenger_beaming: :messenger_ok:

Enjoy your stay, comrade. Put down your dukes and engage with the non-Politics side if you're genuine.
Heh it's my passion outside of gaming. It's also sports but I'm a Knicks and Jets fan and it's been a traumatic 24 hours.
 
Oct 26, 2018
2,468
1,816
240
Oh you mean when 40% of Americans who can't afford a $400 emergency. https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/22/pf/emergency-expenses-household-finances/index.html

When the CEO of Gofundme is stating that they never wanted their platform to be a fundraising site for the publics medical costs. https://khn.org/news/gofundme-ceo-gigantic-gaps-in-health-system-showing-up-in-crowdfunding/
That's on them. Unless someone is making minimum wage and has little chance to save money, the vast majority of people make enough money to save up $400. That's literally banking about $1.10 per day in a piggy bank, or simply not buying a cheap McDonald's coffee each day.

But I think Americans are the biggest in debt credit card users in the world buying tons of useless stuff, so of course many don't have $400 lying around.
 

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
That's on them. Unless someone is making minimum wage and has little chance to save money, the vast majority of people make enough money to save up $400. That's literally banking about $1.10 per day in a piggy bank, or simply not buying a cheap McDonald's coffee each day.

But I think Americans are the biggest in debt credit card users in the world buying tons of useless stuff, so of course many don't have $400 lying around.
No it's a systemic issue. You do realize there is productivity pay gap where capitalists economists said should never ever happen yet here it is. https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2018
2,468
1,816
240
No it's a systemic issue. You do realize there is productivity pay gap where capitalists economists said should never ever happen yet here it is. https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
And that's the way it should be. Not surprisingly, the rise of computers and automation makes productivity go up. It's easy to sit at a desk now and let the PC do all the work for you, while 40 years ago it took teams of people doing paper work using calculators and wasting money photocopying administrative work.

The point of running a business is to be successful. And that means rising sales and profits, while keep costs as low as possible while still running the company well..... that's why Google isn't hiring minimum wage grunts. To keep the Google engine running, it's full of high paid programmers and internet people and business people. Avg wage at Google is probably $100,000. You got the skills? You got yourself a job at Google for 6-digits. Ka-ching.

The point of business is NOT to increases sales and productivity and having costs rising as fast or faster than the sales/profits coming in. If they are, you're a bad business person.

People at the bottom got to man up for success, and control debt loads. Not hard to do.
 
Last edited:

wzy

Member
Dec 29, 2018
292
303
195
That's on them. Unless someone is making minimum wage and has little chance to save money, the vast majority of people make enough money to save up $400. That's literally banking about $1.10 per day in a piggy bank, or simply not buying a cheap McDonald's coffee each day.

But I think Americans are the biggest in debt credit card users in the world buying tons of useless stuff, so of course many don't have $400 lying around.
But that was the implicit bargain of credit in the first place. The whole point is to get people to go out and buy useless stuff. Credit, in one form or another, was the accepted solution to stagnant wages and rising costs of living. That and cheaper consumer goods, but that's a whole other can of worms. This is probably a good opportunity to question the wisdom of a system predicated on endless expansion and perpetually increasing demand and wonder about the kind of things that can happen when it fails to materialize, but I wouldn't want to be labelled a _________.
 
Oct 26, 2018
2,468
1,816
240
But that was the implicit bargain of credit in the first place. The whole point is to get people to go out and buy useless stuff. Credit, in one form or another, was the accepted solution to stagnant wages and rising costs of living. That and cheaper consumer goods, but that's a whole other can of worms. This is probably a good opportunity to question the wisdom of a system predicated on endless expansion and perpetually increasing demand and wonder about the kind of things that can happen when it fails to materialize, but I wouldn't want to be labelled a _________.
Credit has always been around. That's what a mortgage is. The only difference is that a mortgage is for more money and is attached to a home. Nobody buys a home with a bag of cash. Maybe 100 years ago they did(?), but not in recent times.

Car loans too. In history, how often does someone go to a dealership and peel out full payment on the spot? Basically never.

I'm not going to argue the key reason for tons of credit cards floating around the past 40 years (you might be right that the original purpose was buying useless shit), but that's on people to still use their head. If VISA gives someone a $25,000 credit, doesn't mean someone has buy $25,000 of junk. If someone can afford to buy $800 worth a month. Then just buy $800.

Everything is tracked online too. So it can't get any easier. It's not like the old days of credit cards where there was no internet. So what's you'd have to do is track your receipt by hand what you've spent and pray the monthly invoice you get in the mail from VISA didn't blow the bank. So if someone can;t remember what they've bought for budgeting sake, then spend 12 seconds, log into your online profile and see what the current balance is?

Why are some people out there so lazy?

For me, it's not about buying dumb shit, but more for convenience, so I don't have to carry a wallet of bills. What guy wants to walk around with $2,000 in their wallet to buy weekly groceries, gas and the new TV the fam was planning on buying?
 
Last edited:

Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
Dec 7, 2008
31,997
3,263
1,100
But that was the implicit bargain of credit in the first place. The whole point is to get people to go out and buy useless stuff. Credit, in one form or another, was the accepted solution to stagnant wages and rising costs of living. That and cheaper consumer goods, but that's a whole other can of worms. This is probably a good opportunity to question the wisdom of a system predicated on endless expansion and perpetually increasing demand and wonder about the kind of things that can happen when it fails to materialize, but I wouldn't want to be labelled a _________.
there's no evidence that we're anywhere close to the end of perpetual expansion

question away, but don't act like you have a glass ball to the future
 

wzy

Member
Dec 29, 2018
292
303
195
Credit has always been around. That's what a mortgage is. The only difference is that a mortgage is for more money and is attached to a home. Nobody buys a home with a bag of cash. Maybe 100 years ago they did(?), but not in recent times.

Car loans too. In history, how often does someone go to a dealership and peel out full payment on the spot? Basically never.

I'm not going to argue the key reason for tons of credit cards floating around the past 40 years (you might be right that the original purpose was buying useless shit), but that's on people to still use their head. If VISA gives someone a $25,000 credit, doesn't mean someone has buy $25,000 of junk. If someone can afford to buy $800 worth a month. Then just buy $800.

For me, it's not about buying dumb shit, but more for convenience, so I don't have to carry a wallet of bills. What guy wants to walk around with $2,000 in their wallet to buy weekly groceries, gas and the new TV the fam was planning on buying?
Credit has always existed in some form of another, but stupid shit is a much more modern innovation. Put it this way: What is the problem with not simply not giving people loans to buy homes if they're all going to default and crash the market? Duh, you won't sell any homes that way. It's easy to blame people who put a bunch of dumb shit on their credit cards, but a) you knew they were scorpions, and b) you won't sell any consumer goods that way. If people stopped buying stupid shit on credit, that is the end of stupid shit, not poverty.
 

MB1

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2019
99
52
95
That's on them. Unless someone is making minimum wage and has little chance to save money, the vast majority of people make enough money to save up $400. That's literally banking about $1.10 per day in a piggy bank, or simply not buying a cheap McDonald's coffee each day.

But I think Americans are the biggest in debt credit card users in the world buying tons of useless stuff, so of course many don't have $400 lying around.
[/QUOTEYou do realize
Credit has always been around. That's what a mortgage is. The only difference is that a mortgage is for more money and is attached to a home. Nobody buys a home with a bag of cash. Maybe 100 years ago they did(?), but not in recent times.

Car loans too. In history, how often does someone go to a dealership and peel out full payment on the spot? Basically never.

I'm not going to argue the key reason for tons of credit cards floating around the past 40 years (you might be right that the original purpose was buying useless shit), but that's on people to still use their head. If VISA gives someone a $25,000 credit, doesn't mean someone has buy $25,000 of junk. If someone can afford to buy $800 worth a month. Then just buy $800.

Everything is tracked online too. So it can't get any easier. It's not like the old days of credit cards where there was no internet. So what's you'd have to do is track your receipt by hand what you've spent and pray the monthly invoice you get in the mail from VISA didn't blow the bank. So if someone can;t remember what they've bought for budgeting sake, then spend 12 seconds, log into your online profile and see what the current balance is?

Why are some people out there so lazy?

For me, it's not about buying dumb shit, but more for convenience, so I don't have to carry a wallet of bills. What guy wants to walk around with $2,000 in their wallet to buy weekly groceries, gas and the new TV the fam was planning on buying?
People aren’t lazy, they’re working 2-3 Jobs and are still falling behind. Wages are stagnant but every other cost is rising.
 

wzy

Member
Dec 29, 2018
292
303
195
there's no evidence that we're anywhere close to the end of perpetual expansion

question away, but don't act like you have a glass ball to the future
There are some exceptionally bad signs, to say the least. Look, you can gripe about privilege checkers and Antifa or whoever and no one is going to argue. I've picked on a few of those low hanging fruits myself. But we're now 30 years out from the triumph of global capitalism and the fundamental paradox is unresolved: how do you turn a profit when production becomes too efficient?

None of the answers make any sense anymore. Economies of scale are out; just look at Amazon. This a near-monopoly that loses money on retail sales everywhere but the United States. Globalization did the job with cheaper goods from overseas, but it also put all of America's eggs in the tech basket. Anyone dumb enough to invest in Uber or Tesla these days? Okay, how about imperialism? That usually works, right? Maybe, maybe not, but now you know why liberals are spinning up shit about Russia. Credit is another kind of answer but it's also another catastrophe waiting to happen. But more to StreetsofBeige's point, I can tell you the one thing that absolutely will be a total fucking disaster for everyone is encouraging people to save money instead of spend it. That's the kind of good advice that will get you shot if you're the wrong person saying it.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
  • Like
Reactions: Tesseract and MB1

monegames

Member
Sep 26, 2014
2,071
1,526
330
People aren’t lazy, they’re working 2-3 Jobs and are still falling behind. Wages are stagnant but every other cost is rising.
actually only about 5% are working multiple jobs. That number has also been going down since the 90s.
 

Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
Dec 7, 2008
31,997
3,263
1,100
There are some exceptionally bad signs, to say the least. Look, you can gripe about privilege checkers and Antifa or whoever and no one is going to argue. I've picked on a few of those low hanging fruits myself. But we're now 30 years out from the triumph of global capitalism and the fundamental paradox is unresolved: how do you turn a profit when production becomes too efficient?

None of the answers make any sense anymore. Economies of scale are out; just look at Amazon. This a near-monopoly that loses money on retail sales everywhere but the United States. Globalization did the job with cheaper goods from overseas, but it also put all of America's eggs in the tech basket. Anyone dumb enough to invest in Uber or Tesla these days? Okay, how about imperialism? That usually works, right? Maybe, maybe not, but now you know why liberals are spinning up shit about Russia. Credit is another kind of answer but it's also another catastrophe waiting to happen. But more to StreetsofBeige's point, I can tell you the one thing that absolutely will be a total fucking disaster for everyone is encouraging people to save money instead of spend it. That's the kind of good advice that will get you shot if you're the wrong person saying it.
we're at complete odds here, but i respect the thoughtful response
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
3,064
3,644
250
Oh you mean when 40% of Americans who can't afford a $400 emergency. https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/22/pf/emergency-expenses-household-finances/index.html

When the CEO of Gofundme is stating that they never wanted their platform to be a fundraising site for the publics medical costs. https://khn.org/news/gofundme-ceo-gigantic-gaps-in-health-system-showing-up-in-crowdfunding/
Completely irrelevant and besides the point. Americans being unable a budget has nothing to do with the ability to aquire capital.

Which, by the way, is how most people deal with the "no money for emergency problem." They grab credit. That is how plentiful capital is in this country.