AFL-CIO now promoting full blown Communism

Oct 26, 2018
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Credit is another kind of answer but it's also another catastrophe waiting to happen. But more to StreetsofBeige's point, I can tell you the one thing that absolutely will be a total fucking disaster for everyone is encouraging people to save money instead of spend it. That's the kind of good advice that will get you shot if you're the wrong person saying it.
In every other country in the world, the amount of credit card debt to buy dumb shit is lower than the US, and they do fine. Europe, Japan, China all spent less money on CC debt and their economies aren't crashing.

Saving money is a totally valid point, especially for people who are broke.

For people who live comfortably, it's really up to them. They have the choice to save, spend some, or blow the bank. I'm in the spend some camp. I want my assets and money to grow over time, while still enjoying my standard of living, which is simply living like a normal guy. I have enough money to have decent stuff, but I'm no millionaire and I still shop for stuff on deal. And I will never blow the ban going on CC debt paying some company 22% interest. Ill gladly paying a 3% mortgage and a 1.49% car loan and that's it. I need a home and a car. I don't need 3 TVs, 3 stereos and 5 pairs of Diesel jeans at $200 a pop

My plan is to retire with dough, and pass on my assets when I'm a dead duck to nieces, nephews and their kids so the family tree lives comfortably. Keep the money in the family thing.
 
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MB1

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actually only about 5% are working multiple jobs. That number has also been going down since the 90s.
That’s not necessarily true since the government doesnt keep a consistent record. Fro this articl
Completely irrelevant and besides the point. Americans being unable a budget has nothing to do with the ability to aquire capital.

Which, by the way, is how most people deal with the "no money for emergency problem." They grab credit. That is how plentiful capital is in this country.
No you want people indebted to the same people who crashed the economy in 08.
 

oagboghi2

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No you want people indebted to the same people who crashed the economy in 08.
😂 I fucking can't. Communists are just....😂

Yes, I want the economy to grow and be robust. That requires banks and moneylenders to get capital from one place to another. I want to live in a modern society. People have to be "indebted" (to use your rhetoric) to someone at some point. That is literally how our economy grows and jobs are created.

I'm going to throw all that away because of one recession? A recession, mind you that was overdue?
 

MB1

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😂 I fucking can't. Communists are just....😂

Yes, I want the economy to grow and be robust. That requires banks and moneylenders to get capital from one place to another. I want to live in a modern society. People have to be "indebted" (to use your rhetoric) to someone at some point. That is literally how our economy grows and jobs are created.

I'm going to throw all that away because of one recession? A recession, mind you that was overdue?
Nope a recession where we should have nationalized every bank that we bailed out.
 

oagboghi2

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Nope a recession where we should have nationalized every bank that we bailed out.
Rewarding bad actor with literally limitless money, no competition, regulation, and eliminating the financial privacy of millions of Americans.

That makes sense. CDS on steroids 😂
 
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😂 I fucking can't. Communists are just....😂

Yes, I want the economy to grow and be robust. That requires banks and moneylenders to get capital from one place to another. I want to live in a modern society. People have to be "indebted" (to use your rhetoric) to someone at some point. That is literally how our economy grows and jobs are created.

I'm going to throw all that away because of one recession? A recession, mind you that was overdue?
Yup.

Countries with the easiest access to capital have the highest standards of living. Of course, the drawback is some people max out beyond their means and are screwed with high debt forever. But that's on them to control themselves and not buy too much useless shit at 20+% interest. as I said in an earlier post, if someone is that broke and needs quick cash, do a Line of Credit for 7% interest. Why do a CC at 22%? Someone is too lazy, too bad. Can't babysit grown adults forever.

It's like buying a car. Some people can't negotiate and check one dealership. Bad price. Another person wheels and deals with multiple dealerships and does invoice check websites to see actual costing and hidden rebates. Better price. DOn't blame the second guy because he got another $2,000 off. He's just using his head.

Countries where people don't have money, don't have banks giving out mortgages and CC debt to the general population are the countries that are typically broke, have shitty economies and people live like peasants.

I'll take a modern society too. I can control my spending. If others can't that's on them.
 
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MB1

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We have such a high standard of living that 40 million Americans are uninsured. I’m loving this selfish attitude that is making socialism and communism more attractive to my peers than I would have hoped for a few short years ago.
 
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We have such a high standard of living that 40 million Americans are uninsured. I’m loving this attitude that is making socialism and communism more attractive to my peers than I would have hoped for a few short years ago.
That's on the US government to tax more, so they can build up funds. If the government wants to keep income tax and sales tax low, it's on the person to adjust.

Just like in other rich countries where people get taxed a lot more (like here in Canada where buying things are 13% tax in Ontario). You adjust your spending so you aren't broke with endless CC debt.

Given the average citizen in a rich non-US country probably has less disposable income as a % of wages, non-US people should be the ones broke because their take-home pay is less. leading to more desperate CC debt But it's the opposite. People have better saving habits so their CC debts are lower.
 

MB1

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That's on the US government to tax more, so they can build up funds. If the government wants to keep income tax and sales tax low, it's on the person to adjust.

Just like in other rich countries where people get taxed a lot more (like here in Canada where buying things are 13% tax in Ontario). You adjust your spending so you aren't broke with endless CC debt.

Given the average citizen in a rich non-US country probably has less disposable income as a % of wages, non-US people should be the ones broke because their take-home pay is less. leading to more desperate CC debt But it's the opposite. People have better saving habits so their CC debts are lower.
First off you have to remember that the US doesn’t have nationalized healthcare. It’s one of the highest expenditures in this country.
 
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First off you have to remember that the US doesn’t have nationalized healthcare. It’s one of the highest expenditures in this country.
Everyone knows that. The US is probably the only western country in the world that doesn't have national healthcare. Even a broke sanctioned country like Cuba has it.

Despite people needing to pay for insurance on their own in some form, my point is the US has low taxes, lots of stuff is cheap in the US due to competition and economies of scale. That's why buying stuff in Canada or many European countries seems so expensive when doing currency exchange. That should also lead to more savings. People in other countries get taxed through the asshole, yet somehow people don't go apeshit on CC debt.

The bigger issue seems to be Americans like to buy lots of junk on CC debt leading to being thin on funds. Could be many factors.... too many ads making people want to buy stuff.... keeping up with the Jones...... too easy to get 6 credit cards..... etc..... Probably a combo of stuff. But I'm pretty confident the avg. citizen in another rich country won't find it as hard to scrape up $400.
 

oagboghi2

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They would get government scale or be in jail (they committed fraud)
😂 Right, As evidenced by the lack of government corruption in our schools, local boards, public utilities and other government run ventures. How many at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were arrested again?

A national Bank would put our economy in even greater risk than it is was before. For someone who supposedly cares about recessions, weird proposal
 
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JordanN

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I'm just stating a fact. It was Russia who too the brunt of the losses and pretty much won WW2.
Not to downplay Russia's role in WW2 but some of those "huge losses" can be attributed to the constant human waves tactics.
Communists didn't actually value individual lives, they just saw them as cannon fodder until the enemy ran out of bullets or was overwhelmed.

 
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KINGMOKU

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Not to downplay Russia's role in WW2 but some of those "huge losses" can be attributed to the constant human waves tactics.
Communists didn't actually value individual lives, just saw them as cannon fodder until the enemy ran of bullets or was overwhelmed.

Communism is idiotic becuase it places little or no value on individual life. Human beings by nature dont mix with communism.

Anyone advocating it is partially brain damaged, ignorant of history, or just doesnt care about their fellow human beings.

You know, the Zap Brannagin approach.
 
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Communism is idiotic becuase it places little or no value on individual life. Human beings by nature dont mix with communism.

Anyone advocating it is partially brain damaged, ignorant of history, or just doesnt care about their fellow human beings.

You know, the Zap Brannagin approach.
Communism is like a giant ant hill.

Queen ant = Emporer calling the shots
Soldier ants = military and police
Worker ants = everyone else

As long as the Queen calls the shots, the soldiers keep guard and workers be programmed to do shit, the ant hill survives, but the workers (99% of the hill) are treated like worthless assholes with no mind of their own.

The ant hill survives but after decades still looks like the same brown dirt mound. No progress really. Just status quo survival.
 
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MB1

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Communism is idiotic becuase it places little or no value on individual life. Human beings by nature dont mix with communism.

Anyone advocating it is partially brain damaged, ignorant of history, or just doesnt care about their fellow human beings.

You know, the Zap Brannagin approach.
Yeah that's why capitalism is currently killing people. Boeing 737 Max 8, inadequate healthcare in the US, every current US military misadventure.etc etc etc
 
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JordanN

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Yeah that's why capitalism is currently killing people. Boeing 737 Max 8, inadequate healthcare in the US, every current US military misadventure.etc etc etc
While I can admit Capitalism is not without problems, I want to point out that communism would do far worse in similar scenarios.

For example, if you think Capitalism's mishandling of aeronautic safety is bad, the Communist response to the Chernobyl nuclear disaster was a million times worse.
Or that you hated U.S military imperialism, but the Soviets were also invading nations that tried to modify or change communist doctrine to be more moderate.

Capitalism at least involves a level of responsibility that if the public become dissatisfied they can go to alternatives or plunge the value of stock.

With Communism, the workers.... I mean... "the communist dictatorship" would silence and censor all dissent.
 
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MB1

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Capitalism at least involves a level of responsibility that if the public become dissatisfied they can go to alternatives or plunge the value of stock.
Yeah I'm not seeing it. The majority of the population does not want another war, yet defense stocks keep going up.
 

KINGMOKU

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Yeah that's why capitalism is currently killing people. Boeing 737 Max 8, inadequate healthcare in the US, every current US military misadventure.etc etc etc
This is what you bring?

Please. Communism is crap, and everyone who's studied it, or lived thru it knows it. Not even worth my time.

It's always easy to be an "ist" from the comfort of a modern society. That loser mentality of "I want what he has, but without the actual work".
 

wzy

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Hmm. But isn't there some reason that Hungary didn't have as many dedicated communists as other WP nations after World War 2? Maybe one of those n-words?
 

wzy

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Yeah, I figured as much. Children play, adults do all the work, you know, like rational thought.

You'll figure it out one day.
Do you have an argument or what is going on here? At least JordanN's astoundingly terrible takes required him to make some kind of substantive claim. Put some chips on the table, here.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Don't gatekeep new members with made up rules. It's not a very welcoming gesture.
I have literally no power whatsoever to affect their posting behavior. I'm calling out the weirdness of someone joining a videogame forum to primarily argue on their political sub-forum. GAF has been a battleground for political activism in the past, or were you unaware?
 

Rentahamster

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I have literally no power whatsoever to affect their posting behavior. I'm calling out the weirdness of someone joining a videogame forum to primarily argue on their political sub-forum. GAF has been a battleground for political activism in the past, or were you unaware?
Doesn't seem weird to me. People join forums to post and lurk, and in varying ratios in varying subjects. If someone's being a jerk, call it out, but to do so preemptively looks like paranoia. That's not something a board that emphasizes free speech should be about.
 

KINGMOKU

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Do you have an argument or what is going on here? At least JordanN's astoundingly terrible takes required him to make some kind of substantive claim. Put some chips on the table, here.
I dont need, or want to. I just cannot believe in 2019 someone is arguing about the benefits of communism.

Maybe I shouldn't have interjected, but I just found it both amusing, and absurd at the same time. I could state the obvious about the United States, but I've already done that concerning Socialism and how poorly that system has performed. Communism has an even worse track record if that's even possible.

I'm kinda bored with people attacking the United States current form of government when its obviously the best the world has ever seen. Is it perfect? Nothing is, but its obviously the best we have/have conceived of.

Now if someone has some new kind that could possibly compete with capitalism, and its ability to drive mankind to explore, excel, invent, and its ability to maintain peace, now that's a discussion worth having!

Communism?

That argument is dead and buried, with socialism not far behind.
 

MB1

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I'm kinda bored with people attacking the United States current form of government when its obviously the best the world has ever seen. Is it perfect? Nothing is, but its obviously the best we have/have conceived of.
Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan etc etc etc have a better form of government.
 

Tesseract

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Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan etc etc etc have a better form of government.
no, they do not

you just wanna take people's stuff don't you, eat the rich and own the means of production, then do shit all and cry once everything burns

or maybe you'll be laughing, who knows
 
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betrayal

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The video is a great example for left-wing idiocy. They always pretend that people don't control their own life so other have to take care of them. In some ways it's pretty clever, because if you are a dumb fuck and/or lazy type of person you willingly believe this crap, because it encourages you to continue being lazy and dumb and don't try to improve. No matter if the left talks about workers, migrants, criminals or minorities...it is the same principle. ALWAYS. Exploiting the weakness of people while at the same time trying to prevent these people to take responsibility for their own miserable life. Taking responsibility is the single most important factor for success and improvement.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Doesn't seem weird to me. People join forums to post and lurk, and in varying ratios in varying subjects. If someone's being a jerk, call it out, but to do so preemptively looks like paranoia. That's not something a board that emphasizes free speech should be about.
Sorry, but this is soggy logic. I am not preventing any user from joining the site or speaking their mind, nor am I forcing users to join GAF and leap right into the politics section. Don't throw "free speech" into my face while trying to scold me out of using my own.

You dodged my question: GAF has been a battleground for politicking, or were you unaware? Pointing out that we have an influx of users specifically signing up to discuss things in Politics board is neither paranoia nor gatekeeping.
 

Rentahamster

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Sorry, but this is soggy logic. I am not preventing any user from joining the site or speaking their mind, nor am I forcing users to join GAF and leap right into the politics section. Don't throw "free speech" into my face while trying to scold me out of using my own.

You dodged my question: GAF has been a battleground for politicking, or were you unaware? Pointing out that we have an influx of users specifically signing up to discuss things in Politics board is neither paranoia nor gatekeeping.
But you are questioning their validity when they have done nothing wrong. That's not putting free speech as a priority. I am aware of the history. That is irrelevant since that poster did not break the rules at all. This isn't Minority Report.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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But you are questioning their validity when they have done nothing wrong. That's not putting free speech as a priority. I am aware of the history. That is irrelevant since that poster did not break the rules at all. This isn't Minority Report.
Did I accuse them of doing anything wrong? Read my original post. You seem shook by me pointing out an easily-verifiable phenomenon taking place on Politics board.

By all means, disagree with me and point out that I'm making too big of a deal out of it. However, this concern about "gatekeeping" and "free speech" is empty. You are shouting at the wind and you're not going to browbeat me into the corner by whimpering "but but that's not putting free speech as a priority".

No one's free speech is being infringed upon, Nanny.
 

wzy

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I dont need, or want to. I just cannot believe in 2019 someone is arguing about the benefits of communism.

Maybe I shouldn't have interjected, but I just found it both amusing, and absurd at the same time. I could state the obvious about the United States, but I've already done that concerning Socialism and how poorly that system has performed. Communism has an even worse track record if that's even possible.

I'm kinda bored with people attacking the United States current form of government when its obviously the best the world has ever seen. Is it perfect? Nothing is, but its obviously the best we have/have conceived of.

Now if someone has some new kind that could possibly compete with capitalism, and its ability to drive mankind to explore, excel, invent, and its ability to maintain peace, now that's a discussion worth having!

Communism?

That argument is dead and buried, with socialism not far behind.
The argument between communism and capitalism is over, that's true. But it's also irrelevant: the choice in front of you is communism vs fascism. I think I could demonstrate this inductively, given enough time and more walls of text than should be inflicted on any thread, but the abridged version is just simply that this was the choice presented already to much of Europe and it's sweeping Westward. It's beyond obvious now that the post-Cold War arrangement of America and her allies producing nothing worth exporting while the basic necessities of life are produced abroad is untenable. How long do you think we really have before someone other than a mass shooter does something about it? We've been told since we were born probably that innovation and technology will save us, but innovation and technology are today the very root of the problem. That's the basic paradox we're dealing with: the cheaper you can make something, the more long-term unstable the entire industry becomes. Demand bottoms out, labor becomes redundant, and at the macro-level all the same people who are expected to consume your product are laid off and consume nothing instead.

We could go one by one through the kinds of solutions that exist for this problem and find out why none of them are working today, but there's actually much simpler reason that capitalism can't expect to survive the 21st century: you won't allow it. Everything the political right hates about modernity is a logical and inevitable consequence of capitalist enterprise and expansion. The dissolution of national identity, mass migrations, coastal Tech nobility, cheap imports, multiculturalism, global terrorism, idle hedonism, the decadence of urban bourgeois, blue hair dye, Hollywood, Starbucks, millennial neurosis, perpetual adolescence, Adult Fans of Lego, Twitter, TED Talks, declining birthrates; you can lay it all at the feet of a dysfunctional, over-producing economic system that's been paralyzed by it's own technological advancement. The political right forces the system inwards, back within the old and mostly meaningless borders that failed to contain the problem in the first instance; the political left or what passes for it in the United States pushes the system outward, grinding against the borders of nuclear-armed regional powers. Smart money says neither prevails, and in the latter case at least we should be thankful.

Bottom line: if you think communism is odious, fine. I won't bother trading moralisms with you, although when it comes to the 20th century horror I'm quite positive the communists have the better record. From Paperclip to Enduring Freedom, you can peel off the label of every capitalist victory from 1945 to 2014 and you'll find a little Swastika underneath. We're beyond that, now, because of course we are, because you wouldn't be hearing from the communists at all if we weren't. If liberal capitalism had delivered the goods when it came to post-Soviet, End-of-History global prosperity, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Instead, it gave you blind technocrats, 9/11, and a global race to the bottom. There are still haves and have-nots but now they're all miserable, because they're all redundant. No generational struggle, no unity of purpose, and no children to take the blame. Thirty years out from the triumph of the West over the Soviet Union and you can't find a single person who isn't terrified of the future. How is that possible? Forget about the right and wrong of it all for a second and just ask yourself what kind of system can survive it's own victories. Because that's the one you're going to end up with.
 
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BlueAlpaca

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Bottom line: if you think communism is odious, fine. I won't bother trading moralisms with you, although when it comes to the 20th century horror I'm quite positive the communists have the better record.
Bottom line: 99% of western communists would rather live in the decadent capitalist west rather than your stalinist utopias. They all voted with their feet in the last century.

You you have two arguments here: one is that capitalism is not delivering utopia. For people like you that is a legimtate criticism but for rational people it's not. Capitalism trounces socialism and communism and marxism and whatever you call your bullshit, you failed so miserably you renamed capitalism socialism in some countries so you can pretend your ideology is capable of anything other than producing misery and suffering.

Second argument is that same old bullshit - automation and innovation takes jobs and it's all unsustainable. People have been saying this for a long time and it still hasn't happened. Just recently in the last few years lots of books and articles were saying we're in a secular stagnation and it's because of automation, well look at the jobs reports now. And in the long term, things will only get better - CRISPR and embryo selection will eliminate the low IQ and unhealthy from new generations and significantly increase the high IQ by order of magnitude and then maybe we really will have a utopia.
 
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wzy

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Bottom line: 99% of western communists would rather live in the decadent capitalist west rather than your stalinist utopias. They all voted with their feet in the last century.

You you have two arguments here: one is that capitalism is not delivering utopia. For people like you that is a legimtate criticism but for rational people it's not. Capitalism trounces socialism and communism and marxism and whatever you call your bullshit, you failed so miserably you renamed capitalism socialism in some countries so you can pretend your ideology is capable of anything other than producing misery and suffering.

Second argument is that same old bullshit - automation and innovation takes jobs and it's all unsustainable. People have been saying this for a long time and it still hasn't happened. Just recently in the last few years lots of books and articles were saying we're in a secular stagnation and it's because of automation, well look at the jobs reports now. And in the long term, things will only get better - CRISPR and embryo selection will eliminate the low IQ and unhealthy from new generations and significantly increase the high IQ by order of magnitude and then maybe we really will have a utopia.
What are you talking about? It has happened, it's happening right now. Automation is the next logical step after globalization. You're gonna defend what happened to the job market in phase one? Look it what it did to you: pure, unvarnished Nazism. Eugenics will save us? Okay, sure. But even Darwin thinks you're wrong, here. The superior gamer stock isn't exactly going Genghis Khan on the gene pool, is it?
 
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Communism. Fuck, I don't have the energy tonight. So.









Sorry just memes but the gulag is calling and I need to zzz.
There are a few key "pros" to communism.

1. If you're a lazy fucktard, you'll be happy to know everyone else striving to be better will end up in a similar situation as you. You are glad your job as street sweeper pays basically the same as the surgeon dude down the street

2. If you make it to being a politician, you'll be part of elite status and be loaded, get personal guards, and live in gated neighbourhoods

3. If you are the one and only to make it as supreme emperor, you boss everyone around and unless there is a coup, nobody has the balls to do anything about it
 
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Clear

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You cant institute communism at an industrial scale without autocracy and totalitarianism. Kibbutzes and other small collectives work well because they are small unitary groups where interpersonal responsibility can provide ad-hoc structure.

At a state/nation scale though, Its just a gateway to tyranny.

Because as a system of governance it demands control, and control demands hierarchical organization, and at the top of that pyramid is always a tyrant and their cohort.

Its inevitable, because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.