Tal Shiar Agent
Member
INFANT MORTALITY
Really tired of this bullshit being paraded around. Historically, in any time period, if you made it to adulthood you could expect to live to your late 60s.
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"Aggressive vegans" are putting off people from changing eating habits, study finds
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
Really tired of this bullshit being paraded around. Historically, in any time period, if you made it to adulthood you could expect to live to your late 60s.
Living a vegan life always strikes me as a very paradoxical and exhausting way of life. I can only imagine that if you are TRULY and 100% convinced of your ideology than you basically have to regard meat eaters as some sort of murderers, since they are basicially killing off life that in your eyes is worth being protected.
Now truly imagine how it must feel living with that, but knowing that in the company of others you have to try being pragmatic and calm about it without a hint of trying to change and lecture others, because otherwise you will be labeled as an obnoxious asshole not helping your cause.
I'm not vegan, but honestly... that seems tough to me.
Now truly imagine how it must feel living with that, but knowing that in the company of others you have to try being pragmatic and calm about it without a hint of trying to change and lecture others, because otherwise you will be labeled as an obnoxious asshole not helping your cause.
I'm not vegan, but honestly... that seems tough to me.
Yeh, I've said some stupid shit as an active vegan.
It's difficult though, most of us do actually really care about the suffering. And when confronted with posts like "hmmm, this hamburger is so tasty" in response to admitting the lifestyle you can see why this is a shit situation.
Honestly, I think the backlash against veganism /far/ outweighs the preaching.
Why would a meat eater discourage people from being vegan? Seems like we benefit. Improves the enviroment, and we do need to cut down our meat intake a lot as a society. They're taking the hit for the rest of us. Get enough vegans, and meat eaters don't need to cut their intake as much.
Raven117
Member
I drag my knuckles on the ground and howl at the moon on occasion.
Not showing anybody anything. I said I enjoy the lecture, and its more satisfying when I do eat meat. Never said anything about doing it front of them. Or rubbing their face in it. Or pulling a PCU and throwing raw meat on them (amazing scene with Jermey Piven by the way).
As far as Im concerned, vegans are free to not eat meat. I am free to eat meat. I wont lecture a vegan about not eating meat, and I don't expect a lecture back.
While there is absolutely something to be said regarding the over consumption of meat (specifically beef), that uses too much fresh water and produces too much methane, usually thats not what the lecture is about.
Code:
Here here!
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Um, it takes more water to produce cow milk. You have to water the plants that you need to grow to feed the cows, AND you have to water the cows.
Lord of Ostia
Member
When I was in high school, one of my good friends was vegan, and her mother was a self-proclaimed 'vegan activist'. My friend invited me, my girlfriend, and a bunch of our other friends over for a dinner party once. Once we all got their, her mother promptly highjacked the party and turned it into a "vegan and homeopathy propaganda session" for 2 hours. The worst Part? My friend wasn't even embarrassed, because this is all she'd ever known. This woman is famous in that town for being extremely pushy and rude about veganism. She was kicked out of the local seed fair for displaying graphic images of animals being slaughtered and harassing people for eating meat. She tried to take over an event at the public library and make it about herself and veganism when it was just an instructional course about healthy living habits. They exist.
Yup, this right here. I definitely will take the suffering out given the chance, but I'm not going to stop eating meat.
The fuck is the Tab?
HiredN00bs
Member
Arguments against animal slaughter draw parallels to slavery because there are couple large ideological similarities:
1) the tendency to view the cultural status quo as morally acceptable
Why wouldn't everyone oppose slavery throughout history? Isn't it obviously wrong? Not inherently, apparently. We benefit from being raised in a culture that resoundingly condemns it. The reason anyone was ever okay with it was because they were raised in cultures that deemed it acceptable. But the moral question asked to all is the same. Is it morally acceptable to own a person as property? Which leads to
2) the definition of personhood
One of the arguments for the justification of slavery was that slaves from Africa were something less than a person. Recognizing personhood changes the way we view and treat others. Our definition of personhood has since expanded and should continue to expand to serve the goal of reducing and eliminating suffering for a greater range of conscious beings.
You'll find preachy people in all lifestyles, in politics, in religion, in gaming if the gaming side is anything to go by to...
An eco warrior dude once gave my friend a lecture for eating something from nestle for about two hours. just plonked himself down in the dudes bedroom and went at it.
I don't think all eco warriors are dicks because he was a dick, the majority I've met are sound as fuck.
cpp_is_king
Member
Let me get this straight. Are you saying that all meat eaters are assholes?
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Out of curiosity, do we know the breakdown for water needs in grass fed cows? I know they get a ton of liquid naturally through the food they consume, and the land that grass fed cows graze on is typically much better in terms of carbon sequestration and holding onto rain water.
I love meat. Like, I get legitimate cravings for it.
I'm stopping because it's cruel, and a vegan lifestyle will reduce the suffering of animals considerably.
I personally can't understand knowing the suffering and saying "fuck it, my tastebuds matter more". I'm not going to judge you for it, but I don't get it.
theepicoftyler
Member
I think this attitude exists (somewhat) because some meat eaters take personal offense when someone mentions they're vegetarian/vegan. I've spent a lot of time in my life immersed in subcultures filled with some of the most vocal activist people around, and can't remember outside of a handful of instances, anyone that fits the aggressive vegan stereotype.
However, I've seen a lot of outward hostility come from people towards vegetarianism/veganism when it comes up in conversation. Even like, going out to a restaurant and ordering something without meat, and getting dirty looks from people. It's bizarre.
However, I've seen a lot of outward hostility come from people towards vegetarianism/veganism when it comes up in conversation. Even like, going out to a restaurant and ordering something without meat, and getting dirty looks from people. It's bizarre.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Yeah, you are 100% right. But they asked if these people exist, and I was providing an anecdotal example that yes, they do. Some people just want to feel self-righteous and better than other people. Some people use veganism as a means to justify doing so. Most vegans aren't like that, because it's a personal lifestyle choice that really is no one's business but your own.
HiredN00bs
Member
If you were a cow, and I could survive without hurting you, or killing you, but I did it anyway, what would you call it?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Our ancestors mostly lived in abject poverty by today's standards and lived to be like 40
Mammoth Jones
Member
I mean I have family members that are vegan and they were chillin having a good time at the barbecue with us while delicious meat was being grilled. They ain't give a shit. They just didn't wanna eat it.
If they refused to be present because of meat I'd laugh in their face while chewing my burger.
They're already dead. Not eating them means they died in vein.
If they refused to be present because of meat I'd laugh in their face while chewing my burger.
They're already dead. Not eating them means they died in vein.
Nothing, because cows can't have a conversation.
Lord of Ostia
Member
He isn't a cow, he's a human being. There is a difference between the rights of a human being and the rights of a cow.
It's a graduate-led news network meant mainly for University students to discuss the top clubs or who does the best kebab. In terms of actual news stories (that aren't about campus issues such as sexual assault and mental health which they're good for) you'd be much better off reading a rag like the Daily Mail and that's saying a lot.
And this right here is exactly the problem... wow.
Yeah how about no? It isn't even hard to look up. Living extremely sheltered lives maybe, but for most people? Malnutrition, carences, deseases would claim them way before that age.
As if most adults lived till their late 60s during the middle ages
HiredN00bs
Member
Why?
cpp_is_king
Member
I'd call it having a meal. I mean, technically I woudln't because I'd be dead (and cows can't talk anyway), but you get the gist.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I mean I wouldn't stop them from leaving but the party don't stop because of their eating habits.
I'm getting pretty tired of people pretending that "aggressive vegans" are a thing they deal with. Stop pretending characters from sitcoms and stand up acts are people you know motherfuckers.
I wonder if half these fools didn't murder their shitty vegan college roommate and are being haunted by them.
Shit goes the other way 100x more often.
I wonder if half these fools didn't murder their shitty vegan college roommate and are being haunted by them.
Shit goes the other way 100x more often.
RedSparrows
Member
Lord of Ostia
Member
Are you serious right now?
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, I guess that I would be thankful that I exist in the first place because people are eating meat.
Supply and demand, dude. Every time you eat meat you're contributing directly to animal suffering.
I mean, everyone is on some degree even vegans, it's about you personally finding a level of involvement that lets you sleep soundly.
sixteen-bit
Member
I'm gonna start a band called Aggressive Vegans
That's not the point. I was quoting you because of your spitefulness against people who don't share your same ideology.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
I simply don't believe that the animals we eat, especially cows, fowl, and fish, are in any way deserving of protection a la human rights. I'd never eat cetaceans, apes, canines, octopi, or corvids because they display advanced intelligence, or at least the evolutionary potential for advanced intelligence.
I'm all for reducing cruelty, it's why I'm all for grass fed beef, free range chickens, and the like. But short of being able to reliably grow meat independently of an animal, and it being the same taste, texture, and quality as born meat, I see no reason to stop farming animals for consumption.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I'll readily concede this. No one is pushy like this that I've encountered.
Oh! Gotcha. I wouldn't laugh out of spite. I'd laugh because that'd be funny to me and I'd have a burger in my mouth because I wouldn't stop eating it because they don't like meat.
Rushersauce
Banned
You could also add as a positive fact that you're using water to grow trees, and as a by-product you get almonds. Win-win I'd say.
Following the thread. I eat meat, but I'm eating a lot less than I used to. I'm never going vegan, vegetarian is as far as I could go. And if you think I'm an asshole for eating meat, go fuck yourself.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Do you have a history degree? I do. You are wrong.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I think there are two main topics here that one could discuss. One is about deriving conclusions through stereotyping, and the other is about how people can be "anti" something due to how they feel about it.
I've never encountered *aggressive* vegans in real-life, but I know the stereotype well through pop culture and the internet. It sounds a lot like the resistance to virtually everything else that people get into. From Crossfit, to politicians like Hillary & Bernie, to TV shows and gaming franchises. "I was going to check it out, but I hate the way these fans are acting so I am not going to".
Sometimes that disclaimer comes with an added "I know not all of them are like this, but many are".
Which is a convenient way to appear more open minded, but actually not being, and I think this is a trap that all of us here on GAF has fallen into. Probably more than a few times. And really, if you think about it, having thoughts that derive into stereotypes is your brains natural way of creating patterns, setting up systems, categorizing and using logic. Your brain tries to defragment everything you see, hear and read. You have millions of random thoughts pouring into your head every day, of which you have no control over.
I believe the key is not to be mad at having stereotypical thoughts like "vegans are aggressive assholes", but to catch yourself when you do have that thought. Being aware of it and thinking about it, is the key to change that mode of behavior. Because first impressions are so powerful, and our own anecdotes are so powerful. They control so much and give us so much bias. We know intellectually that our anecdotes are not the entire picture, and we try to reassure ourselves, but knowing something is not the same as applying it.
What is more is that negative anecdotals tend to weigh so much on us as well. There is an old saying that it takes 10 good reviews to make up for 1 poor one. We get fixtured on negativity, and we tend to be bothered when someone complains bringing in their shit to our mental state. I think a lot of the personal offense against protests, complaining and people talking about problems is derived from this.
Perhaps people are just troubled with dealing with other people and their feelings. And when they are upset about something they enjoy or take pleasure from, it comes off as anti. Then there literally is not room for both of us. If vegans are the problem, then we just don't have a problem of ideology and character, as well as problems of institutions, laws, regulations, social accepted customs and norms. If Vegans get their way, it will detract from my own life. More vegan options could mean less choice for me. More vegan options could mean less things for me to enjoy. More vegan options could make it more difficult in the future to enjoy what I am doing if through a hypothetical slippery slope in the future, that veganism became the staple diet. More vegan options could mean that I would meet more people who make me feel bad about what I like to eat.
You can apply it to veganism, or race, or religion, or politics. I think the paranoia, slippery slope, double down effects and sense of opposing something, almost always is born out of fear, ego and anger. 3 powerful states that most people are controlled by their entire lives.
This division and hostile opposition to proactive desire to change other peoples mode of behavior or thinking is deeply embedded within our psyche. That might be why it's almost impossible to change other peoples opinion through active mode of persuasion with arguments, logic or facts.
Rather, I think that many peoples ego and personal bias makes them more likely to change their opinions if they feel that they are the ones who got the idea- not some external factor like a survey or a tumblr blog.
Because people live inside their own heads and think their lives is a movie, and they need to derive deep change through a personal transformative experience. External stimuli from other people regurgitating things is just not going to cross that ego-brain barrier.
And the more hostile and toxic the conversation get with snark, condemnation and judgement, the more the tendency to double down and become further anti becomes.
I suspect that some of the things that might be going on when could be things like;
I've never encountered *aggressive* vegans in real-life, but I know the stereotype well through pop culture and the internet. It sounds a lot like the resistance to virtually everything else that people get into. From Crossfit, to politicians like Hillary & Bernie, to TV shows and gaming franchises. "I was going to check it out, but I hate the way these fans are acting so I am not going to".
Sometimes that disclaimer comes with an added "I know not all of them are like this, but many are".
Which is a convenient way to appear more open minded, but actually not being, and I think this is a trap that all of us here on GAF has fallen into. Probably more than a few times. And really, if you think about it, having thoughts that derive into stereotypes is your brains natural way of creating patterns, setting up systems, categorizing and using logic. Your brain tries to defragment everything you see, hear and read. You have millions of random thoughts pouring into your head every day, of which you have no control over.
I believe the key is not to be mad at having stereotypical thoughts like "vegans are aggressive assholes", but to catch yourself when you do have that thought. Being aware of it and thinking about it, is the key to change that mode of behavior. Because first impressions are so powerful, and our own anecdotes are so powerful. They control so much and give us so much bias. We know intellectually that our anecdotes are not the entire picture, and we try to reassure ourselves, but knowing something is not the same as applying it.
What is more is that negative anecdotals tend to weigh so much on us as well. There is an old saying that it takes 10 good reviews to make up for 1 poor one. We get fixtured on negativity, and we tend to be bothered when someone complains bringing in their shit to our mental state. I think a lot of the personal offense against protests, complaining and people talking about problems is derived from this.
Perhaps people are just troubled with dealing with other people and their feelings. And when they are upset about something they enjoy or take pleasure from, it comes off as anti. Then there literally is not room for both of us. If vegans are the problem, then we just don't have a problem of ideology and character, as well as problems of institutions, laws, regulations, social accepted customs and norms. If Vegans get their way, it will detract from my own life. More vegan options could mean less choice for me. More vegan options could mean less things for me to enjoy. More vegan options could make it more difficult in the future to enjoy what I am doing if through a hypothetical slippery slope in the future, that veganism became the staple diet. More vegan options could mean that I would meet more people who make me feel bad about what I like to eat.
You can apply it to veganism, or race, or religion, or politics. I think the paranoia, slippery slope, double down effects and sense of opposing something, almost always is born out of fear, ego and anger. 3 powerful states that most people are controlled by their entire lives.
This division and hostile opposition to proactive desire to change other peoples mode of behavior or thinking is deeply embedded within our psyche. That might be why it's almost impossible to change other peoples opinion through active mode of persuasion with arguments, logic or facts.
Rather, I think that many peoples ego and personal bias makes them more likely to change their opinions if they feel that they are the ones who got the idea- not some external factor like a survey or a tumblr blog.
Because people live inside their own heads and think their lives is a movie, and they need to derive deep change through a personal transformative experience. External stimuli from other people regurgitating things is just not going to cross that ego-brain barrier.
And the more hostile and toxic the conversation get with snark, condemnation and judgement, the more the tendency to double down and become further anti becomes.
I suspect that some of the things that might be going on when could be things like;
- Some people can feel that they are being lectured by someone who they do not perceive as being on a higher plane than themselves, so the ego gets aggressive and takes it as a personal insult. "This person has no right to lecture me about this. Fuck him, and the cause he is trying to wield".
- Some people can feel that they are being manipulated, and might become anti that thing simply because there is a natural human reaction to being controlled or feeling like you don't have a choice for yourself. A negative connotation is born between the thing being preached and how you feel about it.
- Some people can feel embarassed and will react in an aggressive way. Others will just admit to defeat and acknowledge their own shortcomings, but those that are unable to articulate and deal with their own shame can become a walking nightmare. "Who, hurt you?"
- Some people can feel easily knee jerked. Random people ruin their fucking day by just fucking.. being that way. Quick to anger, takes things personal, remembers slights and insults forever and tattoos them in their mind and fantasizes about what they should have told them when they brought those bad people. "You often know the size of the person, by the size of the things that is making him angry".
I don't think suffering needs intelligence to qualify for acknowledgement. Seems like a shaky foundation to build from.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Of course they did. I tend to study muslim intellectuals figures biographies from the middle-age, and they usually died after 50/60.
Averroes died at 72. Ghazali and Avicenna after 50. Ibn Tufayl at 80, Ibn Arabi 78, Ibn Taymiyya, 64...
It's a modern myth that people died at 35/40 in the Middle Age. The life expectancy was low because of infant mortality. /off topic
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I don't know the exact numbers, but it is my understanding that grass fed pasture raised cows consume less water, because some of that water is just plain old rainwater. However, that doesn't really apply to dairy cows, I think. Milk from grass fed cows is a very niche product, relatively speaking.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Brother? I think this is my favorite post from you lol..
Inferno313
Banned
Also, everything that has this level of intelligence didn't once and had the chance to evolve into it.
The animals we farm aren't evolving, we're keeping them fat and stupid on purpose.
BlackGoku03
Member
Thanks. I'm not trying to be a dick. I just don't agree. Typing this out though, I realize I need more research into it but hear me out...
It's hard for me to take anyone seriously if they think the small amount of protests and boycotts do anything. It doesn't. The numbers just aren't on your side to put a dent in the meat industry. And there are Vegans in this thread and others who don't mind eating at an establishment who serves meat. I do need some numbers to back this up though.
Also, Vegans are Vegans for different reasons. Protest for the meat industry, religious reasons, health reasons, animal cruelty reasons, and carbon footprint reasons.
So yes, the reasons a Vegan would use for not attending a restaurant that serves meat can be subjective. But let's not pretend it makes a difference. It hasn't. And it makes Vegans look like they are anti-social and would rather live in a social vacuum.
Yes and yes. The ones I were involved in had numbers on our side and we targeted a specific store/establishment.
What you and others are describing doesn't work because it targets too many places. Successful boycotts will garner interest/increase awareness, have support in large numbers, and will name a specific store/business/app as it's target. One or two or 5 vegans not going to Wendy's in rural Kentucky does nothing.
Shouldn't they be directing ALL of their energy to the meat industry? The restaurants buy their products from the farmers/meat industry. Why not protest them and not the restaurants who are just serving what they get?
I would suggest easing non-vegans into it. Advertise a no meat day to show it could reduce X number of deaths of animals, x number of reduced carbon footprint, etc. A one and done "Everyone must not eat meat" strategy doesn't and hasn't worked. People get defensive of their meat for some reason when they're challenged.
Whoa hold on. You quoted perfectchaos007 saying it's not a myth for vegans to refuse to go to a business that serves meat. We just had a thread a month ago about someone's in-law who did the same at a family dinner.
I understand the issue. And I could be off base... I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong. I'm just saying these "boycotts" don't have nearly the influence hardcore vegans think it does. Especially if people become vegans for different reasons, it means you can't be a true unified front when not supporting these businesses. They aren't feeling the pain when only a small percentage of vegans are protesting them.
Many great scientific discoveries came about because someone set out to confirm "something that has always been true" and discovered that it wasn't.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Am I a terrible person if that doesn't factor into my decision to eat bacon? At all.
Kitsunebaby
Member
I'm sure the vast majority of vegans are fine. I'm sure I've come across many vegans whose veganism I never even took notice of. The only people I ever "knew" were vegan were the ones who chose to make it known to me that they looked down upon my eating habits (my diet consists of mostly meat). That's probably where the stigma comes from. Many of the most vocal vegans are also the most obnoxious. Nobody likes self-righteous assholes, and no one likes other people policing their diets.
I got no beef with someone for being a vegan. I don't care what you eat, and so long as you treat me the same we're all cool.
I got no beef with someone for being a vegan. I don't care what you eat, and so long as you treat me the same we're all cool.
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