Alabama passes near total abortion ban

Arkage

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Who needs to worry about the infiltration of Islamic Sharia Law when we have Christian Law being forced down women's throat by the beloved GOP, the party of rationality and clarity. These state representatives are literally depriving women of their constitutional right to choose because God and donor activists told them it was the right thing.

NPR said:
The law makes it a crime for doctors to perform abortions at any stage of a pregnancy, unless a woman's life is threatened or in case of a lethal fetal anomaly. Doctors in the state face felony jail time up to 99 years if convicted. There are no exceptions for cases of rape or incest.
So the GOP is not only pushing forward the most fringiest, extreme beliefs of its party but legislating them into state law. The longer term goal is (of course) overturning Roe V Wade on the hopes that the current conservative majority in the Supreme Court's will overturn a 40+ year old constitutional ruling. But they made sure to keep the "no rape or incest" provision anyway despite its moral depravity. A truly disgusting act of government.
 
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Nobody_Important

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It won't stand. It flies directly in the face of Roe v Wade. The SCOTUS will overturn it based on that ruling.
 
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matt404au

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Definitely not in favour of banning abortion outright, especially in cases of rape or incest, but where was this outrage when NY legalised third trimester abortions? Abortion is not a positive. It is not something to be shouted or celebrated. It is a serious medical procedure that has a profound emotional impact on not just the mother, but the rest of the family, for the rest of their lives. It is not a right -- it is a privilege in every sense of the word.
 

Vow

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Why can't there be some states in which abortion is near illegal and some states where post-birth abortion is legal and some states where it's kind of in between. Can't people just chose to move wherever they feel comfortable? Does one moral/religious position have to rule everywhere?
 
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matt404au

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Bodily autonomy is a right. Not a privilege. Lol.
The debate was never about "bodily autonomy" until very recently. It was always about at what point we define the fetus as a human being. All political tribes were universally in agreement that abortion should not happen once the fetus is recognised as human. My understanding is that this was typically around the end of the first trimester. Then current_year happened and feminists gained too much political clout and the argument suddenly became about bodily autonomy. It was no longer about whether the fetus being aborted was human -- no, it was about the "right" of women to abdicate responsibility and terminate a being that they chose to create. The whole debate has become incredibly self-centered and I think anyone who thinks it is solely a bodily autonomy issue is not very bright. Can you imagine any other civilisation in history, other than perhaps late-Rome, that would view a fetus as a parasite with no intrinsic value?
 

Rudelord

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God I hope Roe v. Wade gets overturned. Not because I have an intense dislike of abortion, but because it's a fucking dumpster fire of a ruling.

Should have been handled through legislation, not the whims of some scholar kings reading something that isn't there.
 
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PennantKing1994

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It won't stand. It flies directly in the face of Roe v Wade. The SCOTUS will overturn it based on that ruling.
I am personally pro-life but I don't get involved because I am a man. Abortion is not my thing, but the woman should decide. It is her problem. And no, the Hyde Amendment should stay. You can't say that it is a woman's choice and then want taxpayers to pay for something like that.

As for Alabama, it is a very socially conservative state. Southern Democrats do well talking about jobs, healthcare. Don't talk about social issues like abortion and gay marriage because it energizes the conservative base.
 

gohepcat

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, but where was this outrage when NY legalised third trimester abortions?
How someone can get this information so wrong is staggering.

This is what a late-term abortion is:

It is the worst day of any woman's life and you can't even be bothered to understand why it happens.
 

oagboghi2

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Definitely not in favour of banning abortion outright, especially in cases of rape or incest, but where was this outrage when NY legalised third trimester abortions? Abortion is not a positive. It is not something to be shouted or celebrated. It is a serious medical procedure that has a profound emotional impact on not just the mother, but the rest of the family, for the rest of their lives. It is not a right -- it is a privilege in every sense of the word.
No where, because democrats are full of shit.

Let them cry their fake tears and allow the supreme Court to settle this

Why can't there be some states in which abortion is near illegal and some states where post-birth abortion is legal and some states where it's kind of in between. Can't people just chose to move wherever they feel comfortable? Does one moral/religious position have to rule everywhere?
Congratulations, you just described what would happen if roe v wade is overturned
 
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sahlberg

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The debate was never about "bodily autonomy" until very recently. It was always about at what point we define the fetus as a human being. All political tribes were universally in agreement that abortion should not happen once the fetus is recognised as human. My understanding is that this was typically around the end of the first trimester. Then current_year happened and feminists gained too much political clout and the argument suddenly became about bodily autonomy. It was no longer about whether the fetus being aborted was human -- no, it was about the "right" of women to abdicate responsibility and terminate a being that they chose to create. The whole debate has become incredibly self-centered and I think anyone who thinks it is solely a bodily autonomy issue is not very bright. Can you imagine any other civilisation in history, other than perhaps late-Rome, that would view a fetus as a parasite with no intrinsic value?
It becomes and it is recognized as a human at the time it becomes capable of doing basic Algebra. This usually happens around the age of 12.
Before that they are Pre-persons and can be aborted at will.
 

matt404au

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How someone can get this information so wrong is staggering.

This is what a late-term abortion is:

It is the worst day of any woman's life and you can't even be bothered to understand why it happens.
I don't have the information wrong here and all you've done is make an emotional argument. The problem I have with the NY law is the deliberately vague wording of "in cases where the fetus isn’t viable or the mother’s health is at risk". If the mother's life is at risk, go right ahead and abort the fetus. That's a medical emergency and the mother's life comes first imo. What constitutes a "health risk" though? Will genetic pre-disposition to postpartum depression be a valid health risk to justify the late-term abortion?
 
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gohepcat

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The problem I have with the NY law is the deliberately vague wording of "in cases where the fetus isn’t viable or the mother’s health is at risk".
That is the only problem you have with it? That's it?
So you would have no problem with late-term abortion otherwise?
 

monegames

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That is the only problem you have with it? That's it?
So you would have no problem with late-term abortion otherwise?
considering that and the fetus being not viable are the only parts that are relevant to late term abortions, why would you think @matt404au would be ok with late term abortions?
 
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How someone can get this information so wrong is staggering.

This is what a late-term abortion is:

It is the worst day of any woman's life and you can't even be bothered to understand why it happens.
If it's the "worst day in a woman's life," then why is your disgusting kind cheering it on?

 
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#Phonepunk#

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yes its evil to ban killing humans.
this bill is quite extreme though, and would force live births even in cases of miscarriage, if i am correct. it seems like limiting the options doctors have during a problematic birth & punishing the mother for what would otherwise still be an unsuccessful birth by the standards of the baby being able to reasonably survive. this isn't even Evangelical, this is far more extreme, you even see people like Pat Robertson speaking against it.
 

Patriots7

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It's truly astonishing how backwards the platform of the Republican party is.

This is pretty disgusting. Actually that doesn't really do it justice. This is blatantly evil. I don't know how anybody could think otherwise.
 

monegames

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this bill is quite extreme though, and would force live births even in cases of miscarriage, if i am correct. it seems like limiting the options doctors have during a problematic birth & punishing the mother for what would otherwise still be an unsuccessful birth by the standards of the baby being able to reasonably survive. this isn't even Evangelical, this is far more extreme, you even see people like Pat Robertson speaking against it.
yes it is extreme and I do not support it, I am more in agreement with 12 weeks or mother's life at risk or nonviable baby. To call this evil while supporting shit like the NY law is beyond ridiculous though.
 

epicnemesis

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Definitely not in favour of banning abortion outright, especially in cases of rape or incest, but where was this outrage when NY legalised third trimester abortions? Abortion is not a positive. It is not something to be shouted or celebrated. It is a serious medical procedure that has a profound emotional impact on not just the mother, but the rest of the family, for the rest of their lives. It is not a right -- it is a privilege in every sense of the word.
80% of the country falls in this area but we only hear about the loony 10% on either side.
 
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ilsayed

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The debate was never about "bodily autonomy" until very recently. It was always about at what point we define the fetus as a human being. All political tribes were universally in agreement that abortion should not happen once the fetus is recognised as human. My understanding is that this was typically around the end of the first trimester. Then current_year happened and feminists gained too much political clout and the argument suddenly became about bodily autonomy. It was no longer about whether the fetus being aborted was human -- no, it was about the "right" of women to abdicate responsibility and terminate a being that they chose to create. The whole debate has become incredibly self-centered and I think anyone who thinks it is solely a bodily autonomy issue is not very bright. Can you imagine any other civilisation in history, other than perhaps late-Rome, that would view a fetus as a parasite with no intrinsic value?
Anyone that thinks abortion is solely a woman “abdicating responsibility and terminating a being that they chose to create” is not very bright. And anyone who thinks that a woman just gets an abortion on a whim late into their term might actually be a fucking moron.
 

AmaiMask

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It's truly astonishing how backwards the platform of the Republican party is.

This is pretty disgusting. Actually that doesn't really do it justice. This is blatantly evil. I don't know how anybody could think otherwise.
As another poster put it, how is it evil to prevent mothers from killing unwanted babies, regardless of the stage of conception? Abortions frankly should only be used to save the mothers life I feel. People should be practicing safe sex and using birth control, and just being responsible overall with sex. How isn't having an abortion in and of itself not evil if it's not done to save the life of the mother?
 

ilsayed

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As another poster put it, how is it evil to prevent mothers from killing unwanted babies, regardless of the stage of conception? Abortions frankly should only be used to save the mothers life I feel. People should be practicing safe sex and using birth control, and just being responsible overall with sex. How isn't having an abortion in and of itself not evil if it's not done to save the life of the mother?
Rape, for starters.
 

Rran

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It's a fetus, not a human.
A fetus is a stage of development, not a different species. A fetus is a human.

Both of these posters are making an argument that the level of development is relevant to how human or alive something is, which is false.

this bill is quite extreme though, and would force live births even in cases of miscarriage, if i am correct.
Do you have a source for this?
 

matt404au

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Anyone that thinks abortion is solely a woman “abdicating responsibility and terminating a being that they chose to create” is not very bright. And anyone who thinks that a woman just gets an abortion on a whim late into their term might actually be a fucking moron.
Did I say it was solely an abdication of responsibility? Did I say it was being done on a whim? Address the arguments I actually made.
 

Achelexus

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How someone can get this information so wrong is staggering.

This is what a late-term abortion is:

It is the worst day of any woman's life and you can't even be bothered to understand why it happens.
Kinda ironic that the worst thing that can happen to women is having as many rights as men, tells a lot about our matriarchal society.
 
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matt404au

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It's mostly Catholics and Evangelicals. Both of whom I can do without.
I'm an atheist but I err more towards pro-life than pro-choice. I think we treat it far too flippantly in current_year. There is no scenario in which an abortion is a positive; only sad situations in which it should be treated as a desperate last resort. I think there are also negative cultural flow-on effects from encouraging abdication of responsibility. I look at the "women" #Shouting their abortions and celebrating it as a victory much the same way I look at the Westboro Baptist Church, i.e. ideological zealots.
 

ilsayed

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Did I say it was solely an abdication of responsibility? Did I say it was being done on a whim? Address the arguments I actually made.
What’s your argument otherwise? That women gained political clout and you don’t like it?
 

Bolivar687

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This is blatantly evil. I don't know how anybody could think otherwise.
The destruction of human life is unethical. When the human mind first began turning towards philosophy, it didn't take long to realize that abortion is unethical, culminating in the Hippocratic Oath. Science is unequivocal that a new, distinct, genetically-human life begins at the moment of conception. It is absolutely not a person choosing what happens only to their own body. The greatest pro-life advocates out there today are all women. The pro-life movement is majority-driven by women. The architects and sponsors of these laws arising throughout the country are women.

The United States is now entering into a new era of Reconstruction. The Constitution does not anywhere create a right to abortion, and almost all of substantive law is delegated to the states. Self-governing people have a right to determine what kind of society they want to live in. Even far leftists like Ginsburg admit that Roe v Wade is among the most poorly-reasoned legal opinions in our history. Planned Parenthood v. Casey is likewise a entirely unfounded circumvention of Article I of the Constitution and complete abrogation of the 10th Amendment. I don't fully trust Kavanaugh and Roberts to fulfill their Article III responsibilities, but I'm excited to see state lawmakers reasserting our Constitutional principles through bold, life-affirming legislation.
 

Tesseract

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It won't stand. It flies directly in the face of Roe v Wade. The SCOTUS will overturn it based on that ruling.
this is wrong, as r v. w deliberately passed the buck to states to trial balloon various laws and outcomes

i'm neither here nor there on abortion, but the ruling was a smart one as there's no certainty to abortion in this country
 
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AmaiMask

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Rape, for starters.
A very small amount of women who have abortions actually get raped though. I don't think making an exception to this is bad, however I'm also not going to call refusing to make that an exception evil either. At the end of the day it's still another life, whether it was by choice or not.
 

Zog

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I have long been an advocate for no one being forced into parenthood but men still are. Equality on the horizon?
 
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Under the new laws, not only is abortion banned but women can be jailed for traveling to a different state to get an abortion performed, and any doctor who helps a woman get an abortion after being raped will get MORE TIME IN JAIL (99 years) than anyone that actually raped the 12 year old.

For the christians out there:
An excellent quote from reddit:

“To the pro-life people out there: I understand how you feel. Honestly. This is such a difficult moral issue, and I know there are plenty of people who feel like murder is finally illegal. I get it.

But there is so so much more to this than the question of one life or two. In the United States, you have to choose to be an organ donor. You can't even use a corpse to save someone's life unless that person gave explicit consent when they were alive. You certainly can't force a living person to give up an organ to save a life, even if both people would walk away alive. That is the concept of bodily autonomy.

Just consider for a moment the incredible cost of pregnancy and birth. Your body physically changes in dozens of ways. You probably experience nausea, dizziness, swelling, back pain, constipation, mood swings. You have to change what you eat, what you drink, how you move, what you do. You may be unable to work or go to school. You may be let go for spurious reasons. You may find it difficult to find people to hire you. You will need ultrasounds, checkups -- health insurance. You will go through the most physically painful experience of your life, where in 70% of cases the baby literally tears its way out of you. You will owe the hospital thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars. Your body will physically never be the same.

Now imagine you never chose this. You never wanted this. But you have no choice.

How can someone end up pregnant and not want to be? There are a myriad of scenarios, all with moral implications. Maybe you have a steady partner and you are using birth control, but the birth control didn't work. Maybe the condom broke. Maybe he couldn't pull out in time. Maybe you never learned about birth control because your school only taught you about abstinence. You didn't intend it, but here you are.

And then worse. Maybe he lied and took off the condom when you wouldn't notice. Maybe he drugged you and raped your unconscious body, or maybe he raped you while you were awake, so the sounds and the pain and the smell is seared into your brain. Maybe he is your teacher, your pastor, your police officer. Maybe he is your brother, your uncle. Maybe he is your father. It happens so much more often than any of us want to think or talk about. And now the seed, the DNA of the person who violated you, is growing inside you, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

So you give birth, unprepared and unwilling. Because you didn't want or plan for this pregnancy, chances are you didn't take care of yourself as well as is ideal, and chances are you are not providing an ideal life for this child. Maybe you drank alcohol before you knew you were pregnant, or you drank alcohol on purpose to try to kill your baby. Maybe you smoked. Maybe you are addicted to opiates and now your child will be too. Maybe you are poor -- the cost of childbirth didn't help -- and have no means to buy food, diapers, cribs, or other supplies for your baby. Maybe you are a felon or are otherwise ineligible for SNAP or WIC. Maybe your partner beats you and will beat your child, but you can't leave because then you would be homeless. Maybe you are homeless. Maybe your partner left you. How will you get a job? Who will take care of the baby? If you are in school, you almost certainly have to drop out. The effects of neglect, of abuse, of malnourishment, of fetal alcohol syndrome, of neonatal abstinence syndrome, all of these have profoundly negative effects on the child for the rest of their lives.

It is understandable why some pregnant women become desperate, and what a desperate person can do can be horrifying for everyone involved. To quote a clinic administrator (from the 2016 documentary Trapped):

I told her you can come to San Antonio and we can help you here, and she said, "I can't, I don't have the means, there's no way I can get to San Antonio. So what if I tell you what I have in my kitchen cabinet, and you can tell me what I can do."
I doubt anyone's read this far. It's for my own catharsis anyway. But given that you can't obligate someone to give up their bodily autonomy to save someone's life in other cases, why is this, pregnancy and childbirth, something that will affect someone for the rest of their life, why is this mandated? Why should a mass of cells without even a brain have the right to require of a living woman what we cannot even demand of a corpse? So many women who have had abortions and later have children express the relief and gratitude that they didn't have a child when they weren't ready. Because of their choice, they were able to save their own lives and bring new life into the world for whom they could properly care.

Now, because of this law, thousands will suffer. The Alabama lawmakers have already handed down their sentences. They had a choice. Now we do not.”
 

oagboghi2

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We already have a thread for you to cry in. Did you purposely ignore it?
 

ilsayed

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At the end of the day it's still another life, whether it was by choice or not.
More like “at the end of the pregnancy it’s another life.”

A woman is raped and forced to carry the rapists baby for 9 months.
You: phew.
 

chaos789

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It is more than ironic that conservatives want to overturn Roe v. Wade, but yet at the same time do not support any means of social support after the baby is born. Which is crucial for single parents and people in a lower income setting.

So I guess they care about the baby from the time of conception and up till birth, after that it’s on its own.

Pro-lifers have also stood against sex education in schools and the distribution of condoms and helping to lower the cost of birth control.
 
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matt404au

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Under the new laws, not only is abortion banned but women can be jailed for traveling to a different state to get an abortion performed, and any doctor who helps a woman get an abortion after being raped will get MORE TIME IN JAIL (99 years) than anyone that actually raped the 12 year old.

For the christians out there:
An excellent quote from reddit:

“To the pro-life people out there: I understand how you feel. Honestly. This is such a difficult moral issue, and I know there are plenty of people who feel like murder is finally illegal. I get it.

But there is so so much more to this than the question of one life or two. In the United States, you have to choose to be an organ donor. You can't even use a corpse to save someone's life unless that person gave explicit consent when they were alive. You certainly can't force a living person to give up an organ to save a life, even if both people would walk away alive. That is the concept of bodily autonomy.

Just consider for a moment the incredible cost of pregnancy and birth. Your body physically changes in dozens of ways. You probably experience nausea, dizziness, swelling, back pain, constipation, mood swings. You have to change what you eat, what you drink, how you move, what you do. You may be unable to work or go to school. You may be let go for spurious reasons. You may find it difficult to find people to hire you. You will need ultrasounds, checkups -- health insurance. You will go through the most physically painful experience of your life, where in 70% of cases the baby literally tears its way out of you. You will owe the hospital thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars. Your body will physically never be the same.

Now imagine you never chose this. You never wanted this. But you have no choice.

How can someone end up pregnant and not want to be? There are a myriad of scenarios, all with moral implications. Maybe you have a steady partner and you are using birth control, but the birth control didn't work. Maybe the condom broke. Maybe he couldn't pull out in time. Maybe you never learned about birth control because your school only taught you about abstinence. You didn't intend it, but here you are.

And then worse. Maybe he lied and took off the condom when you wouldn't notice. Maybe he drugged you and raped your unconscious body, or maybe he raped you while you were awake, so the sounds and the pain and the smell is seared into your brain. Maybe he is your teacher, your pastor, your police officer. Maybe he is your brother, your uncle. Maybe he is your father. It happens so much more often than any of us want to think or talk about. And now the seed, the DNA of the person who violated you, is growing inside you, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

So you give birth, unprepared and unwilling. Because you didn't want or plan for this pregnancy, chances are you didn't take care of yourself as well as is ideal, and chances are you are not providing an ideal life for this child. Maybe you drank alcohol before you knew you were pregnant, or you drank alcohol on purpose to try to kill your baby. Maybe you smoked. Maybe you are addicted to opiates and now your child will be too. Maybe you are poor -- the cost of childbirth didn't help -- and have no means to buy food, diapers, cribs, or other supplies for your baby. Maybe you are a felon or are otherwise ineligible for SNAP or WIC. Maybe your partner beats you and will beat your child, but you can't leave because then you would be homeless. Maybe you are homeless. Maybe your partner left you. How will you get a job? Who will take care of the baby? If you are in school, you almost certainly have to drop out. The effects of neglect, of abuse, of malnourishment, of fetal alcohol syndrome, of neonatal abstinence syndrome, all of these have profoundly negative effects on the child for the rest of their lives.

It is understandable why some pregnant women become desperate, and what a desperate person can do can be horrifying for everyone involved. To quote a clinic administrator (from the 2016 documentary Trapped):


I doubt anyone's read this far. It's for my own catharsis anyway. But given that you can't obligate someone to give up their bodily autonomy to save someone's life in other cases, why is this, pregnancy and childbirth, something that will affect someone for the rest of their life, why is this mandated? Why should a mass of cells without even a brain have the right to require of a living woman what we cannot even demand of a corpse? So many women who have had abortions and later have children express the relief and gratitude that they didn't have a child when they weren't ready. Because of their choice, they were able to save their own lives and bring new life into the world for whom they could properly care.

Now, because of this law, thousands will suffer. The Alabama lawmakers have already handed down their sentences. They had a choice. Now we do not.”
"They had a choice. Now we do not." is a pretty ironic way for them to conclude that post.
 
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