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News Spoilers All The Last of Us 2 leaks/spoilers in here and nowhere else.

Ulysses 31

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People aren't logical, they do make mistakes, the question is is are the mistakes in character for that person? If the character development supports the character's mistakes then there's nothing wrong with the writing. Also name some bad points made in a 5 hour video? You know part of the problem with the idiots in that video is they throw every critique at the wall they can and just hope some stick instead of sticking to things they know for certain are flawed, or simply what's important. The only people who have time for 5 hours of tearing down something that lasts less than 20 minutes are people who enjoy self-flagellation as much as these guys do.
You make the same points the Mauler crew makes but Patrick's video is called "Shut up about plot holes", he says plot holes don't actually matter but later in the video he admits that there are valid plot holes to bring up, "In Alien, the acid melts through the floor. Why doesn't the it melt through the entire ship", the guy's video is a bit of a mess. You don't even need to watch the whole 5 hours, just the first hour alone they deconstruct a lot of nonsense Patrick throws at the audience.

How are they the ones throwing every critique at the wall hoping that something sticks? They take statements made, deconstruct it and/or provide counter examples. You have some formula how long a critique video should be compared to the source material? :lollipop_grinning:
 
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You make the same points the Mauler crew makes but Patrick's video is called "Shut up about plot holes", he says plot holes don't actually matter but later in the video he admits that there are valid plot holes to bring up, "In Alien, the acid melts through the floor. Why doesn't the it melt through the entire ship", the guy's video is a bit of a mess. You don't even need to watch the whole 5 hours, just the first hour alone they deconstruct a lot of nonsense Patrick throws at the audience.

How are they the ones throwing every critique at the wall hoping that something sticks? They take statements made, deconstruct it and/or provide counter examples. You have some formula how long a critique video should be compared to the source material? :lollipop_grinning:
I never got the Alien example surely the acid becomes less potent the more objects it eats through. That said in the aliens they make it clear a dead aliens acid stops melting things so maybe it's some weird distance from the host organism idea. It's weird getting so pedantic about how magic alien blood works. The few examples of plot holes Patrick gives are to make a point about how rarely they occur, what they actually are when they occur and how even when you discovered one you're often missing the point.
 
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Ulysses 31

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I never got the Alien example surely the acid becomes less potent the more objects it eats through. That said in the aliens they make it clear a dead aliens acid stops melting things so maybe it's some weird distance from the host organism idea. It's weird getting so pedantic about how magic alien blood works. The few examples of plot holes Patrick gives are to make a point about how rarely they occur, what they actually are when they occur and how even when you discovered one you're often missing the point.
Another thing you can Mauler co. agree on. :lollipop_grinning:

Patrick's the one bringing it up as a "plot hole" while Mauler co just assume acid dissipates after a while and that there's different types of acid, like there's acid that can't go through plastic. So they're a bit puzzled why Patrick sees it as a plot hole. They're responding to Patrick, they're not making up things about alien blood.
 
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Another thing you can Mauler co. agree on. :lollipop_grinning:

Patrick's the one bringing it up as a "plot hole" while Mauler co just assume acid dissipates after a while and that there's different types of acid, like there's acid that can't go through plastic. So they're a bit puzzled why Patrick sees it as a plot hole. They're responding to Patrick, they're not making up things about alien blood.
It's kind of missing the point of what Patrick's doing though. He didn't bring that point up as a crucial flaw in the film.
 

Ulysses 31

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It's kind of missing the point of what Patrick's doing though. He didn't bring that point up as a crucial flaw in the film.
Which highlights a weakness of Patrick's video that he doesn't bring up serious plot holes that are crucial to the plot of movies to make his case to "shut up about plot holes".
 
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Which highlights a weakness of Patrick's video that he doesn't bring up serious plot holes that are crucial to the plot of movies to make his case to "shut up about plot holes".
That's because he doesn't think plot holes are crucial. I can't name a movie I don't like because of plot holes.
 

Ulysses 31

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That's because he doesn't think plot holes are crucial. I can't name a movie I don't like because of plot holes.
But who's saying you can't like a movie because of plot holes? Mauler co. certainly don't, they never said you're not allowed or are wrong to feel whatever you felt watching a movie. A straw man often levied at them.

It becomes a different story if you're talking about craftsmanship of a movie.
 

Roufianos

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Finished it.

Firstly, the game undeniably has a huge SJW agenda.

Every woman is flat chested,

Abby's muscle mass is implausible in an apocalyptic setting, highly unlikely even in the real world.

The Liv stuff is bs - she wants to be a soldier and have short hair, that doesn't make her a boy. I'm not against people transitioning if that's what they want but I strongly oppose children being encouraged.

Ellie and Dina's relationship wasn't too preachy, it felt more natural as opposed to woke. So no real complains there, I actually quite liked the pair of them.

That said, none of that was really too detrimental on the game, which I didn't really enjoy for other reasons.

I'd probably give it a 6 or a 7, there's a 9/10 game in there somewhere but it's way too bloated and has some awful directing decisions.

The worst thing about it is building to a climax and then literally setting us back 8 hours to play as Abby. As stupid as her design is, I actually quite like the character now it's finished but at the time, all I was thinking was that I wanted to know what happens next, not learn about Joel's killer. I literally rushed through large parts of her story.

I can't think of a piece of media that's killed its momentum as hard as this. They should have let you finish Ellie's campaign, then play as Abby.

Aside from that, the gameplay pacing is awful, as it was in Unchated 4. There's just too many boring moments where you're walking around or working out where to go. I dont mind environmental puzzles or a bit of downtime but there's just far too much padding. Druckmann's getting a bit pretentious and there's a huge mismatch between the gripping narrative and bloated gameplay sections.

I didn't really enjoy the stealth either, the environments are too big, with too many enemies and not the depth of mechanics to match. The destination location isn't even clear for quite a lot of these areas.

As for combat, clickers used to scare the shit out of me but I mainly must found them infuriating in this game, the one hit kill is so cheap. They can charge towards you from a good distance and you can get 3 or 4 shots in but still die.

The shooting mechanics just aren't all that and I know they're intentionally clunky, I think they're fine over a 10 hour game but they get kind of frustrating after 20 hours.

And I think that's kind of the point with the gameplay, everything just overstay its welcome, at least in my opinion. If the game was 15 hours then I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more.

That's just my rough take having just beaten it, quite excited to listen to some spoiler casts and see what other people think.
 

GeorgPrime

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Well... I just finished Last of Us 2.

Am I the only one who thinks that Last of Us 2 could be a totally independent game without any relation to Last of Us?

After the end I think that Last of Us (Part One) is still the better part of the series. In Last of Us 2 you can really feel how Neil Druckman just wanted to push his propaganda while pushing one of the best female writers out of the company.

Last of Us was about survival, the relationship that Joel and Ellie built, the goal to create a cure and the evil story twist at the end.

Now we have just a standard revenge story built at the expense of Joel and Ellie. The whole story about the cure, the clicker and the ending of Last of Us went into the background. There is no higher purpose on the journey... just women acting like guys. Young women, old women, women with one arm, pregnant women fighting... all the good guys die randomly without even a good fight (like Jesse who just gets shot into the eye)

There's no true ending ... everything trickles away and you lose touch with the characters you used to love and when you think its finally over... its just drags on into another disappointing end without a real climax.

The only time I was really touched by Last of Us 2 was the moment when Abby finds the dead dog at the end and the memory of Joel and Ellie in the museum.

I dont think i will play Last of Us 3 if Neil Druckman is still in charge. I dont even have the urge to get the platinum trophy. I dont even want to play it a second time on Survival Mode.

One last thing: I prefer the Story of Chloe and Max in Life is Strange over Dinah and Ellie in Last of Us 2.

I have the feeling the whole story was scrapped in the last minuten and rewritten by Neil Druckman. I was expecting a revenge story about Ellie getting rid of the last fireflies while finding out that Joel lied to her with the possibility of Ellie dying in the end to create cure. They could have even put a love story between Dinah and Ellie in there. Building up a lot of stuff before Ellie brings the ultimate sacrifice with Joel getting wasted by her death.

They could have Abby being a Firefly who is hunting for Ellie and the Killer of her father.


Fun fact:

My 15 year old nephew was watching me playing it when the sex scene between Abby and Owen happened. He was like "Were are the boobs? She has the same chest size like the guy...."
 
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Grinchy

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a cave outside of Whoville.
In the first game, we see Tommy's crew just barely getting an old hydroelectric dam working so that they have power (after presumably a long time trying to get this to work).

Does this game ever explain how Abby's group has a stadium working at full capacity and in pristine shape? Did they actually rebuild the power plant for that city just to route power over to the stadium or something? It just always felt odd in the leak pictures to me.
 

Umbral

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Another weird thing in the game is that Lev shaved her head because she wanted to be a soldier, implying that the soldiers are men, yet there are tons of Seraphite women soldiers in the combat sections. Lev didn’t need to shave her head to be a soldier because the women soldiers have long hair braided up.
 
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GeorgPrime

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Another weird thing in the game is that Lev shaved her head because she wanted to be a soldier, implying that the soldiers are men, yet there are tons of Seraphite women soldiers in the combat sections. Lev didn’t need to shave her head to be a soldier because the women soldiers have long hair braided up.
Lev is a transgender and he was supposed to marry one pf the elders lol
 

Umbral

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Lev is a transgender and he was supposed to marry one pf the elders lol
Lev says she shaved her head though and Yara mentions that it’s because she wanted to be a soldier, but you don’t need to shave your head to be a soldier because soldiers are unisex in the Seraphites.
 

GeorgPrime

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They always refer to him as the brother of yara

Biography

Background and early life
Lev was the son of a devout Seraphite mother with an older sister named Yara. The family resided in a village on the Seraphite island in Seattle, Washington. According to Yara, Lev questioned Seraphite traditions.

On Yara's advice, Lev kept his feelings to himself. However, that changed when he was assigned to be a wife for an Elder. Denied his wish of becoming a soldier like Yara, Lev began to openly identify himself as male, shaving his head and renaming himself from Lily to "Lev". This brazen act of defiance was met with outrage, forcing Lev to flee for his life. Yara chose to go after him, resulting in her exile from the community as well, while their mother chose to "repent" for their actions by abstaining.
 
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Paracelsus

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Another weird thing in the game is that Lev shaved her head because she wanted to be a soldier, implying that the soldiers are men, yet there are tons of Seraphite women soldiers in the combat sections. Lev didn’t need to shave her head to be a soldier because the women soldiers have long hair braided up.
Yara tells Abby that Lev came out to her, as a trans man.
 

Umbral

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Yara tells Abby that Lev came out to her, as a trans man.
I understand that, but I don’t understand the need to shave the head to be a soldier if there are female soldiers with long hair in braids. Unless her wanting to be a soldier was a cover-up for what she actually wanted which was to be male.
 

Paracelsus

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I understand that, but I don’t understand the need to shave the head to be a soldier if there are female soldiers with long hair in braids. Unless her wanting to be a soldier was a cover-up for what she actually wanted which was to be male.
It wasn't exactly to be a soldier, it was to come out to the tribe, to rebel, like when feminists shave bald.
 

saintjules

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How did DF get rid of the film grain in their video? I didn't mind it so much, but it looks really clean here. Maybe HDR has to go off?

 
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Raonak

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Yup. That's why good authors are pretty discreet about it.
They don't announce out loud: we are gonna make you like our new character, no matter what.
They try hard to make the story look genuine and true.
Not the case in TLOU2 (and it seems like, you're right, it wasn't the case in TLOU either, but then authors were pretty discreet, and we did not know that).
Who are you even talking about though? What are these "well written" videogame stories?

I consider TLOU 1 and 2 to be one of the best written videogame stories.

What is there that's substantially better? MGS? RDR? Mass Effect? Witcher? You can poke holes at all their stories because all of them are trying to write a story that is meant to be wrapped around a game.


Are people comparing this story to movies and books? Because if that's the case, then ND accomplished their mission. They elevated videogame storytelling to new heights.
 
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Madflavor

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Who are you even talking about though? What are these "well written" videogame stories?

I consider TLOU 1 and 2 to be one of the best written videogame stories.

What is there that's substantially better? MGS? RDR? Mass Effect? Witcher? You can poke holes at all their stories because all of them are trying to write a story that is meant to be wrapped around a game.


Are people comparing this story to movies and books? Because if that's the case, then ND accomplished their mission. They elevated videogame storytelling to new heights.
I would consider Mass Effect 1 to have a much more interesting story than TLoU2, but they're completely different types of stories. As for as revenge stories goes, I thought the RDR series did a much better job. It didn't hammer you over the head repeatedly that revenge was bad.
 
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I would consider Mass Effect 1 to have a much more interesting story than TLoU2, but they're completely different types of stories. As for as revenge stories goes, I thought the RDR series did a much better job. It didn't hammer you over the head repeatedly that revenge was bad.
Probably because neither game is really a revenge story. the idea that the two games especially the second one don't hammer you over the head with their themes is kind of ridiculous. Though there's more subtlety to it than with Grand theft Auto the contempt for America and the American dream is quite easy to decipher. I'd argue the full extent of rockstar's view of the world can't be seen without playing both franchises where are red Dead 1 and 2 are showing you the awful end of freedom the Grand theft Auto games are the result of progress industrialization and so forth and wallow in their satirization of what we've become.
 
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joe_zazen

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anyone else sad that the drama is 99% over? I think this may be the drama infused game release I’ve witnessed.

Good times.
 

J3nga

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Thank you Neil for this game that inspired people making all those memes, we all really need a good laugh during these unprecedented times :messenger_grinning_squinting:.
 

Business

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I think bird's-eye view the story is very good, I really liked how they fit the character of Abby being the daughter of the Dr you kill as Joel in part one. The story going parallel in Seattle day's 1, 2 and 3 was good too imo you get to know more of the other side and you know the grim end of Owen and Mel.

Now when you descend a bit closer into finer detail there's a few jarring things, like for example Abby finds Ellie and her friends because Ellie forgot a map of their exact location at the crime scene. They really couldn't come up with something a bit more compelling after years of writing this story? I found a few of these not so well rounded bits.

Then there's the famous agenda. I personally don't mind if there's a lesbian character, a lesbian couple with a kid sexing around the house, a woman built like an ox that's physically stronger than basically any other character in the game or a kid that comes out as trans. None of these is really an issue, but I will say that having them ALL combined in the few characters of the main cast of the game is borderline ridiculous. Yes I get it they have a clear position on these social realities, and it's fair if they want to use their game as a platform to get their audience to come closer to their view on them, but when you see the backlash it's had you have to think maybe it's not that there's millions of bigots out there rather than you lost touch with nuance and proportion when you decided to touch on these.

Also I don't like what they did to Joel, and I don't mean kill him, I mean throw away his character and transform him in a pitiful old man that looks down and barely can hold his tears every time Ellie tells him off for basically everything he does.
 
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Yoboman

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I think bird's-eye view the story is very good, I really liked how they fit the character of Abby being the daughter of the Dr you kill as Joel in part one. The story going parallel in Seattle day's 1, 2 and 3 was good too imo you get to know more of the other side and you know the grim end of Owen and Mel.

Now when you descend a bit closer into finer detail there's a few jarring things, like for example Abby finds Ellie and her friends because Ellie forgot a map of their exact location at the crime scene. They really couldn't come up with something a bit more compelling after years of writing this story? I found a few of these not so well rounded bits.

Then there's the famous agenda. I personally don't mind if there's a lesbian character, a lesbian couple with a kid sexing around the house, a woman built like an ox that's physically stronger than basically any other character in the game or a kid that comes out as trans. None of these is really an issue, but I will say that having them ALL combined in the few characters of the main cast of the game is borderline ridiculous. Yes I get it they have a clear position on these social realities, and it's fair if they want to use their game as a platform to get their audience to come closer to their view on them, but when you see the backlash it's had you have to think maybe it's not that there's millions of bigots out there rather than you lost touch with nuance and proportion when you decided to touch on these.

Also I don't like what they did to Joel, and I don't mean kill him, I mean throw away his character and transform him in a pitiful old man that looks down and barely can hold his tears every time Ellie tells him off for basically everything he does.
That is Joels tragic flaw. He put everything into Ellie. She is all he had left in the world. Without her he is a shell. It is the same for Abby and Lev
 

Yoboman

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I just cant stop thinking about this game. I dont remember a game holding onto my mind space so much after I've completed it. I think the reason this game has stuck with me so deeply is the loss of a father. While I could understand the concepts of fatherhood in the firsf game, it never struck deep with me (not being a father myself).

But I have lost a father in sudden circumstances. I really deeply relate to the anger, confusion, and deep sadness of Ellie and Abby, and even how myself and others as gamers have felt losing Joel in that fashion. To a limited extent it felt like those feelings of loss again. While it obviously never manifested in revenge, I can relate to that loss of meaning in life as you try to rediscover purpose. The things you've said to your father you regret, those special moments you have that you'll remember. The Joel flashbacks are a real highlight for me.

The ending really struck home for me, that was Ellie finding that purpose and joy again in life. Its not instant, its a journey. The game is really special to me because I felt things I never expected from a game, the sadness of loss sure - but the anger and frustration and regret are real parts of it too that I don't know if many understand or identify unless they've been there
 
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pLow7

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Finished it.

Firstly, the game undeniably has a huge SJW agenda.

Every woman is flat chested,

Abby's muscle mass is implausible in an apocalyptic setting, highly unlikely even in the real world.

The Liv stuff is bs - she wants to be a soldier and have short hair, that doesn't make her a boy. I'm not against people transitioning if that's what they want but I strongly oppose children being encouraged.

Ellie and Dina's relationship wasn't too preachy, it felt more natural as opposed to woke. So no real complains there, I actually quite liked the pair of them.

That said, none of that was really too detrimental on the game, which I didn't really enjoy for other reasons.

I'd probably give it a 6 or a 7, there's a 9/10 game in there somewhere but it's way too bloated and has some awful directing decisions.

The worst thing about it is building to a climax and then literally setting us back 8 hours to play as Abby. As stupid as her design is, I actually quite like the character now it's finished but at the time, all I was thinking was that I wanted to know what happens next, not learn about Joel's killer. I literally rushed through large parts of her story.

I can't think of a piece of media that's killed its momentum as hard as this. They should have let you finish Ellie's campaign, then play as Abby.

Aside from that, the gameplay pacing is awful, as it was in Unchated 4. There's just too many boring moments where you're walking around or working out where to go. I dont mind environmental puzzles or a bit of downtime but there's just far too much padding. Druckmann's getting a bit pretentious and there's a huge mismatch between the gripping narrative and bloated gameplay sections.

I didn't really enjoy the stealth either, the environments are too big, with too many enemies and not the depth of mechanics to match. The destination location isn't even clear for quite a lot of these areas.

As for combat, clickers used to scare the shit out of me but I mainly must found them infuriating in this game, the one hit kill is so cheap. They can charge towards you from a good distance and you can get 3 or 4 shots in but still die.

The shooting mechanics just aren't all that and I know they're intentionally clunky, I think they're fine over a 10 hour game but they get kind of frustrating after 20 hours.

And I think that's kind of the point with the gameplay, everything just overstay its welcome, at least in my opinion. If the game was 15 hours then I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more.

That's just my rough take having just beaten it, quite excited to listen to some spoiler casts and see what other people think.
Man i can't disagree more. Second part was the best Part of the game and made the game outstanding.
 

Dodkrake

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After finishing the game yesterday, wanted to drop my score here:

Graphics - 10/10
Sound - 10/10
Gameplay - 10/10
Story - 8.5/10

Average - 9.6

Edit: Just wanted to add that Abby being muscular in a community with tons of well built people + she being already naturally strong and lev being "trans" didn't ruin anything for me. The story flows really well and is super compelling. The 1.5 downgrade is related to the first couple of hours with Abby that are kind of unecessary and the overall pacing.
 
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psorcerer

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That is literally how she ends the game, nothing left but to care for Lev. Her quest for revenge tore her life to shreds and gave her no satisfaction.
That's how it started too. Bad writing is pretty bad.
There's no point in Abbie story, because she was invented only to grandstand on how gamers are Neils little bitches and he can make them praise anything.
 
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Roufianos

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Man i can't disagree more. Second part was the best Part of the game and made the game outstanding.
I can see where you're coming from. I reckon I'd enjoy the second half of the game a lot more than the first on a second play through.

It's just the pacing, I think it was a terrible idea to build to a climax then take us back 8 hours. Especially if you're someone who's in it for the gameplay more than the story.

I think Ellie should have killed Abby, think we as the player should have beaten the shit out of her like Kratos and Zeus. Then gone back in time to realise what we'd done.