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AMD Confirms Sony PlayStation Neo Based on 14nm CPU and Polaris?

Caayn

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Mar 10, 2013
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Well xbox did it with the "new" 360. The black one.
You mean the first slim version of the console? That was only in the US, and that was a standard slim redesign of the console it had no extra power or major features that set it apart from the original design.

I'd be surprised if Sony, or anyone else for that matter, is going to pull a "it's on store shelves now" to be honest.
 

labx

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Apr 21, 2011
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You mean the first slim version of the console? That was only in the US, and that was a standard slim redesign of the console it had no extra power or major features that set it apart from the original design.

I'd be surprised if Sony, or anyone else for that matter, is going to pull a "it's on store shelves now" to be honest.
Well I just pull a hypothesis. A possible but unlikely scenario.
 
Dec 12, 2015
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Increases due to Moore's Law are just too much It really does feel like within the next decade, the concept of home consoles as we know it will cease to exist and we'll either have upgradeable mini-PCs or OnLive style "streaming" devices where the company does all of the hardware upgrades, but that's very far off for America with her awful broadband infrastructure, but less so in Japan and a ton of places in Europe.

It's come to a point where it just makes more sense for many to buy PCs. They are more expensive, but if we're just going to see these half gen upgrades, the idea of a $400 console lasting you a few years goes out the window.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Jun 8, 2004
28,319
0
0
Increases due to Moore's Law are just too much
Increases in computing capability have for some time now been tracking below Moore's law, and are probably slowest they've ever been. You can forget about 8-10x increases in capacity for the same power consumption in a 5-year timeframe like it was possible in the PS1-2-3 cycle. PS5 released in 2018 would not be 8-10x more powerful than PS4. That's why this paradigm shift is probably happening to begin with.
 

RandSec

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Aug 21, 2013
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PS5 released in 2018 would not be 8-10x more powerful than PS4. That's why this paradigm shift is probably happening to begin with.
If a cycle lasts 6 years, and the goal is 10x, we can achieve that with 2 upgrades of a little over 3x each. The figure cited earlier for Neo is 2x GPU and 30pct CPU, so maybe it is getting there. They can do it again.

The marketing seems even more interesting: Maybe, when Sony started looking into this, their initial goal was a cheaper implementation. While that worked in older processes, it would not at 14nm. But if they have to re-design to get the old thing, why not build a new and better thing?

The idea of building a better thing may have led to considering the market consequences of having a new, compatible, more-costly, and more profitable PS4. Surely Enthusiasts MUST buy such a thing, in effect selling the PS4 to the same people TWICE, the second time with even more profit. All while the existing PS4 continues to serve the low end.

As a consequence, the software market, which is the main profit center, has a larger installed base, as in more machines in more homes which need more software. So win-win.
 

Napalm_Frank

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Jun 27, 2011
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Increases due to Moore's Law are just too much It really does feel like within the next decade, the concept of home consoles as we know it will cease to exist and we'll either have upgradeable mini-PCs or OnLive style "streaming" devices where the company does all of the hardware upgrades, but that's very far off for America with her awful broadband infrastructure, but less so in Japan and a ton of places in Europe.

It's come to a point where it just makes more sense for many to buy PCs. They are more expensive, but if we're just going to see these half gen upgrades, the idea of a $400 console lasting you a few years goes out the window.
It only lasts a few years if games become unplayable to you when someone else plays the same game with a bit more AA and sharper shadows. PS4 wont be replaced by NEO, it just becomes the cheaper model at 299 that plays the same games.
 

pottuvoi

Banned
May 17, 2010
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Increases in computing capability have for some time now been tracking below Moore's law, and are probably slowest they've ever been. You can forget about 8-10x increases in capacity for the same power consumption in a 5-year timeframe like it was possible in the PS1-2-3 cycle. PS5 released in 2018 would not be 8-10x more powerful than PS4. That's why this paradigm shift is probably happening to begin with.
Indeed, performance doesn't scale as it used to, as we hit power wall in 2005. (End of Dennard scaling.)
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
May 4, 2007
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True, puma was just a design improvement. Finfet is different though so not sure if the changes that were made to jaguar would carry forward on the new node.
That's a good point I had not thought about. Porting Jaguar to 14LPP must have been a substantial endeavour.
 

jeff_rigby

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Aug 7, 2010
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From Semiaccurate Seronx:

The big thing I have been reading from asian forums is that the next consoles will be monarch based.

Example of Monarch(Monoarch);
4x of
64 KB L1i
Fetch(CPU/GPU ISA)
Decode(CPU ISA) + Decode(GPU ISA)
Dispatch
L0i (CPU) + L0i (GPU)
2 ALU / 2 AGU / 2 FPU / Bi-directional GPU Fetch/Retire Unit(Connects to 1CU/64 ALUs)
From Yu Zheng Linkedin now taken down;
Project ‘G’/Project ‘K’, Semi-Customer project with Game Console clients.

As customer driven projects, those has extremely tight schedule and tough signoff criteria. As deployment lead, leading a team of 4 and finished successful delivery of A0/A1 sample. Client projects specially requires binary back-compatibility with previous generation of game console which brings in 3 different operation mode for verification work load, we managed to leverage regression automation and using scripting to do pre-process and post-process of regression logs and debug by priority, we managed to meet every milestone on time and with quality.

Same guy from Greenland project;
Project ‘Greenland’; Leading project of Graphic IP v9.0

As leading chip of first graphic IP v9.0 generation, it has full capacity of 4096 shader processor, along with whole new SOC v15 architecture.
Same author with admitted speculation:

In addendum to the above post.

Project K = Kingston
16 nm FF+, 11 Metal Layers
CPU Cores - Tiger
GPU Cores - Volcanic Island/Vega-ish - HBM2

Project G = ???
14nm LPP+, 11 Metal Layers (GlobalFoundries-specific)
CPU Cores - Cheetah
GPU Cores - Polaris - GDDR5

From what I can find, tied together with speculation.
This makes sense, PS4 still using GDDR5 and XB1 forced to use HBM2.
 

tuxfool

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Oct 21, 2014
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Maybe the Xbox isn't a 1.5 but a slightly early replacement (say November 2017)?
Even then that is seriously pushing it. You'll note that even the ps4 going with GDDR5 was a gamble and this was technology that that first appeared commercially nearly 4 years prior.
 

El_Chino

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Even then that is seriously pushing it. You'll note that even the ps4 going with GDDR5 was a gamble and this was technology that that first appeared commercially nearly 4 years prior.
It wasn't a gamble, just people didn't expect it to have 8GB of it.

Even so, I wouldn't be surprised if that Xbox is an early next gen console.
 

THE:MILKMAN

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Even then that is seriously pushing it. You'll note that even the ps4 going with GDDR5 was a gamble and this was technology that that first appeared commercially nearly 4 years prior.
I still have this feeling the last gen being 8 years really knocked Sony and MS off the tech train. Previous to last gen consoles launched at/near the cutting edge and I feel these upgraded or replacement consoles are their attempts to get back near to that cutting edge within reason.
 

DeepEnigma

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Dec 3, 2013
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I still have this feeling the last gen being 8 years really knocked Sony and MS off the tech train. Previous to last gen consoles launched at/near the cutting edge and I feel these upgraded or replacement consoles are their attempts to get back near to that cutting edge within reason.
Nah, it was not wanting to sell at a loss anymore, since game development is more expensive software wise on a return than anything.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Oct 21, 2014
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It wasn't a gamble, just people didn't expect it to have 8GB of it.

Even so, I wouldn't be surprised if that Xbox is an early next gen console.
It is a gamble if you don't think you'll have sufficient capacity to match the competition at a manageable price.

Sure, any console could use HBM, but

A) They won't have a GPU that requires that bandwidth.
B) HBM would make costs skyrocket.
 

orochi91

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Jan 10, 2014
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Woah, MS will be rocking Vega hardware in the upgraded XB1?

I suppose they've got the cash to pull it off, but damnnn~~~

That'll be quite the jump over their current console.
 

AmFreak

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I still have this feeling the last gen being 8 years really knocked Sony and MS off the tech train. Previous to last gen consoles launched at/near the cutting edge and I feel these upgraded or replacement consoles are their attempts to get back near to that cutting edge within reason.
Based on the leaked specs the ps4k is basically the ps4 released in 2016/17.
In fact it is even worse, cause the only big upgrade is the gpu.
 

THE:MILKMAN

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Nah, it was not wanting to sell at a loss anymore, since game development is more expensive software wise on a return than anything.
Point taken and I can see this, but Sony now have the 'headache' of VR which seems will require more power than they currently have (3.5TF minimum?) at least to deliver AAA graphics in second gen titles on.

I would think MS would want to get into VR too if it takes off.

AmFreak said:
Based on the leaked specs the ps4k is basically the ps4 released in 2016/17.
In fact it is even worse, cause the only big upgrade is the gpu.
Yes, if the devkit specs are the final specs. Wait and see for now.
 

ElectricMonk

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Jan 28, 2014
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IIRC Cheetah was the code name for Puma+ successor on FinFET, my only guess on Tiger is a different code name because the two CPUs mentioned use different fabs in the post (I thought AMD would stick to one or the other, but no actual info alas). I assume semi custom did bare minimum moving Cats to 14/16nm which explains talk of "Jaguar".
 

biglittleps

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geordiemp

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Slightly related and though a rumor, if you read the whole thing it does kind of make sense.
http://www.designntrend.com/articles/76482/20160520/playstation-neo-rumor-console-production-price-sony-new-ps4.htm

I wonder if this is what actually happen, it would explain the existence of Neo/Xbone 1.5.
That does not make any sense, its like saying you cant have 28 nm anymore sony, we are all moving to 14/16 nm, take it or pay more.

I just cannot imagine that works, AMD are not the fab anyway, and there will be plenty of 28 nm capacity I can only imagine, and 14/16 will be in shorter supply surely ?

The quote implies that the semi fab world is moving to 14/16 nm, there will be only 28 left at higher prices. Does not compute....
 

jelly

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Oct 14, 2013
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Slightly related and though a rumor, if you read the whole thing it does kind of make sense.
http://www.designntrend.com/articles/76482/20160520/playstation-neo-rumor-console-production-price-sony-new-ps4.htm

I wonder if this is what actually happen, it would explain the existence of Neo/Xbone 1.5.
Wouldn't that depend on the foundry that AMD don't own. AMD would still need to design it and if it's in their contract to do so, the foundry does the rest right?

If true however, that would mean they wouldn't bother with slim consoles, they'll just phase the old models so no substantially cheap consoles unless they are feeling generous phasing them out.
 

qa_engineer

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Lol at the hbm2 Vega rumor. If any upgraded console is using hbm2 that would mean it has a GPU that needs the type of bandwidth that HBM was designed to deliver, and a GPU requiring that type of bandwidth will likely be much, much faster than the 1080 which retails for 699.99 USD. Even the Fury X with HBM1 is retailing for north of 600 USD


Why do people automatically assume its gonna cost so much?
See above. HBM2 isn't even utilized on the fastest GPUs just recently announced by AMD and Nvidia. The Radon Pro Duo still uses HBM1 and the 1080 uses a variant of gddr5 (gddr5x or g5x). HBM2 was designed for future GPUs with high bandwidth requirements as a means of keeping the beefy GPU fed with work.

Do you really think slapping an exotic memory type onto a mainstream consumer electronic device is going to lower it's price? And the fact that using the memory without a powerful GPU to match such bandwidth requirements is simply a terrible design decision, and a waste of appropriated dollars on the BOM. If they go HBM2 it's because they have a Vega, if it's Vegas we're talking AMDs high end part which is to compete with Nvidia high end offerings.
 

SRG01

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That does not make any sense, its like saying you cant have 28 nm anymore sony, we are all moving to 14/16 nm, take it or pay more.

I just cannot imagine that works, AMD are not the fab anyway, and there will be plenty of 28 nm capacity I can only imagine, and 14/16 will be in shorter supply surely ?

The quote implies that the semi fab world is moving to 14/16 nm, there will be only 28 left at higher prices. Does not compute....
It makes total sense if GloFo is retooling their lines for smaller gate sizes as they've been stuck there for years. Fabs usually aren't optimized for multiple technology sizes -- it's either one or the other.
 

Elios83

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If that rumor is grounded then PS4 Neo will simply be the new PS4 going on and current PS4 will be discountinued.
New form factor, 14nm main chip based on a new mass manufactured APU line that AMD will put in production. All the upgrades are just a ''free'' consequence of the 14nm manufacturing process.
Rumors on price might also have been completely off since they certainly aren't going to raise the price, on the contrary.
We'll see later this year.


That does not make any sense, its like saying you cant have 28 nm anymore sony, we are all moving to 14/16 nm, take it or pay more.

I just cannot imagine that works, AMD are not the fab anyway, and there will be plenty of 28 nm capacity I can only imagine, and 14/16 will be in shorter supply surely ?

The quote implies that the semi fab world is moving to 14/16 nm, there will be only 28 left at higher prices. Does not compute....
This is nothing new or strange though, as technology moves on, manufacturing old things for the sake of a single product simply costs more than switching to the new mass maufactured tech.
 

El_Chino

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Jan 22, 2012
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Lol at the hbm2 Vega rumor. If any upgraded console is using hbm2 that would mean it has a GPU that needs the type of bandwidth that HBM was designed to deliver, and a GPU requiring that type of bandwidth will likely be much, much faster than the 1080 which retails for 699.99 USD. Even the Fury X with HBM1 is retailing for north of 600 USD




See above. HBM2 isn't even utilized on the fastest GPUs just recently announced by AMD and Nvidia. The Radon Pro Duo still uses HBM1 and the 1080 uses a variant of gddr5 (gddr5x or g5x). HBM2 was designed for future GPUs with high bandwidth requirements as a means of keeping the beefy GPU fed with work.

Do you really think slapping an exotic memory type onto a mainstream consumer electronic device is going to lower it's price? And the fact that using the memory without a powerful GPU to match such bandwidth requirements is simply a terrible design decision, and a waste of appropriated dollars on the BOM. If they go HBM2 it's because they have a Vega, if it's Vegas we're talking AMDs high end part which is to compete with Nvidia high end offerings.
Wouldn't GDDR5 be phased out (by AMD at least) by next year? So the only options are GDDR5x or HBM2?
 

THE:MILKMAN

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If the rumor is grounded then PS4 Neo will simply be the new PS4 going on and current PS4 will be discountinued.
New form factor, 14nm main chip based on a new mass manufactured APU line that AMD will put in production. All the upgrades are just a ''free'' consequence of the 14nm manufacturing process.
Rumors on price might also have been completely off since they certainly aren't going to raise the price, on the contrary.
We'll see later this year.
This is what I would think. I understand the rules for OG PS4 given the sort time from launch and 40 million installed base but why would Sony continue to sell it?

So many questions....and we might not get any answers at E3.

Is OsirisBlack around? I'd love to know if he has heard anymore about two SKUs being sold side by side permanently or until OG is sold through.
 

geordiemp

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This is nothing new or strange though, as technology moves on, manufacturing old things for the sake of a single product simply costs more than switching to the new mass maufactured tech.
No, I dont agree. When I worked at a Motorola fab many years ago now though, the new fabs had lower yields and were more expensive, no way would all production of a company shift to 14 nm just like that...

Maybe another fab will get the 28 nm, the market in 2017 will not be solely 14 nm, I just cannot see that unless things are different nowadays..