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AMD hardware will support Directx 12 features (inc. Xbox Series X)

FranXico

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The point is RDNA2 has some features that only work on DirectX 12U and Sony will have to come up with their own solution.
No. The point is that DirectX 12U fully supports RDNA2 features. Microsoft worked with AMD to guarantee that.
Sony probably came up with their own APIs to support those features.
 

Kazekage1981

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MICROSOFT: DIRECT X 12 ULTIMATE API
APPLE: METAL API
GOOGLE: VULCAN API
INTEL: ONE API
AMD & NVIDIA: DIRECT X 12 ULTIMATE API and VULCAN
 

Entroyp

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Truth.
You can use these features in any API.


Mesh Shaders: DX12, OpenGL, Vulkan.

VRS: DX11, DX12, OpenGL, Vulkan.

It is crazy how the MS brainwash works to the point that Xbox fans believes it is exclusive.

MS only added (late) common GPU feature to their API.

Honestly this is getting ridiculous. Time to look for other places to discuss console tech.
 
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Rightisright

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Truth.
You can use these features in any API.


Mesh Shaders: DX12, OpenGL, Vulkan.

VRS: DX11, DX12, OpenGL, Vulkan.

It is crazy how the MS brainwash works to the point that Xbox fans believes it is exclusive.

MS only added (late) common GPU feature to their API.
Is PS5 using Nvidia?
Its actually AMD who is late to the party, not MS. MS has supported it since Nvidia came out with it.
No one has said VRS is exclusive to MS. Nvidia has had it for ages, and they have three APIs that support it on their cards. Just like they have 2 APIs that support Ray tracing on Nvidia cards.
What we are saying is that MS has said that XSX will have VRS. Sony has yet to say they have it, and now AMD announce that RDNA 2 will support VRS through Direct X. Sony doesnt use Direct X, so at this point it seems that PS5 wont have VRS.
 

Rightisright

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Of course, they will be the same, just called something different. Mesh shaders and VRS against Geomtery engine .......whatever the hell the api is called. in the Sony API, DX12 API, Vulkan API whatever Its all the same shit lol.

Do you think Vulkan / MS / Sony wont write drivers to control the AMD hardware ? some of the names are nice sounding though...its called marketing.
You cant just write APIs for AMD hardware. AMD have to support your APIs for it to run.
That's why you see that MS and AMD worked together to get Direct X on RDNA 2.
 

LazyParrot

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Yes I am serious. VRS is something MS has said will be on XSX, and AMD has said will be on RDNA 2. Sony hasn't mentioned VRS, and yet people here are saying that it WILL be on PS5 because its a RDNA feature. I have shown where AMD has said it is an RDNA feature because of Direct X. So somehow because of this it is expected that I prove that that its not on PS5? Thats called proving a negative. Its more appropriate that you prove it is on PS5. Since Sony hasn't mentioned VRS, MS have, and AMD has said that its available through Direct X, and havent mentioned any other API, then the evidence seems to point to it not being on PS5.
Sony hasn't said much about their GPU, period. If you assumed that it is only capable of what has been officially announced, you'd have to conclude that the thing couldn't even run games.

Let's use some common sense here. PS5 uses RDNA2, which supports VRS. All Sony would have to do is create an API that takes advantage of it. Why the hell would you assume that they wouldn't just do that? It'd be completely irrational. Do you really think Sony went "We have this nifty new feature here, how about we just ignore it?" while designing their API?

You cant just write APIs for AMD hardware. AMD have to support your APIs for it to run.
That's why you see that MS and AMD worked together to get Direct X on RDNA 2.
So what? They're doing the same thing for Sony. Or do you seriously believe AMD would design a GPU to Sony's specs, only to then refuse to support their API?
 

Armorian

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Damn PS5 sucks

 
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DForce

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Geometry culling has been around for ages. Notice they didnt call it Mesh Shading. That's for a reason.
It's Mesh Shading.

It's called the Geometry Engine. Digital Foundry said its going to be using a lot of the RDNA 2 features.

Your post is just inaccurate.
 

FranXico

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It's Mesh Shading.

It's called the Geometry Engine. Digital Foundry said its going to be using a lot of the RDNA 2 features.

Your post is just inaccurate.
Like I mentioned before, there's a lot of marketing doublespeak coming from both Sony and MS.

They know that people are aware of both consoles using hardware based on the same architecture, so they try to further differentiate their offerings by renaming what essentially are RDNA2 features with their own pretentious terminology.
 
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ethomaz

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Is PS5 using Nvidia?
Its actually AMD who is late to the party, not MS. MS has supported it since Nvidia came out with it.
No one has said VRS is exclusive to MS. Nvidia has had it for ages, and they have three APIs that support it on their cards. Just like they have 2 APIs that support Ray tracing on Nvidia cards.
What we are saying is that MS has said that XSX will have VRS. Sony has yet to say they have it, and now AMD announce that RDNA 2 will support VRS through Direct X. Sony doesnt use Direct X, so at this point it seems that PS5 wont have VRS.
VRS is on hardware.
Any API can use it.
Or you can direct code to metal.

You don’t need DirectX.
 

ethomaz

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You cant just write APIs for AMD hardware. AMD have to support your APIs for it to run.
That's why you see that MS and AMD worked together to get Direct X on RDNA 2.
False 2x.

Anybody can write an API using the AMD documentation.
API is just an abstraction layer to made the direct drivers calls.

MS and AMD worked together to make the DXR 1.1 API... not RDNA 2... MS has nothing to do with RDNA 2 development.
 
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They are both RDNA 2 GPU's and the features that have been spoken about are the same for both. Mesh Shaders sounds pretty much like the Geometry Engine. Primitive Shaders sounds like VRS. Tou guys are falling for PR.

It is the same AMD tech renamed for PR purposes for their customers own tastes. That's it. API is the only difference here. No one is missing a key feature from AMD. Just stop already.
 
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Rightisright

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Sony hasn't said much about their GPU, period. If you assumed that it is only capable of what has been officially announced, you'd have to conclude that the thing couldn't even run games.

Let's use some common sense here. PS5 uses RDNA2, which supports VRS. All Sony would have to do is create an API that takes advantage of it. Why the hell would you assume that they wouldn't just do that? It'd be completely irrational. Do you really think Sony went "We have this nifty new feature here, how about we just ignore it?" while designing their API?


So what? They're doing the same thing for Sony. Or do you seriously believe AMD would design a GPU to Sony's specs, only to then refuse to support their API?
Did I say they would refuse to support it? No I said you just can't make an API and then use it without the company allowing it.
Do you think APIs are a basic bit of software that anyone can just knock up? They Are far from it. On the PS4 Sonys API was ultra basic that allowed close access to the GPU. Things have changed. APIs are far more important as can be seen by the amount of innovations coming out via them.
Ray Tracing is only supported via Vulcan and Direct X at this point. Open GL doesnt do it even. If it was easy everyone would have it.
 
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ethomaz

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That is definitely not true.
It true.

AMD co-developed DXR 1.1 with Microsoft like nVidia co-developed DXR 1.0 with Microsoft.

MS did not help or co-developed RDNA 2.0.

It is another lie Xbox fans tries to spread.
 
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mitchman

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They are both RDNA 2 GPU's and the features that have been spoken about are the same for both. Mesh Shaders sounds pretty much like the Geometry Engine. Primitive Shaders sounds like VRS. Tou guys are falling for PR.
I think it's the other way around, primitive shades is mesh shaders, VRS is geometry engine, or at least a part of VRS.
 
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ethomaz

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They are both RDNA 2 GPU's and the features that have been spoken about are the same for both. Mesh Shaders sounds pretty much like the Geometry Engine. Primitive Shaders sounds like VRS. Tou guys are falling for PR.

It is the same AMD tech renamed for PR purposes for their customers own tastes. That's it. API is the only difference here. No one is missing a key feature from AMD. Just stop already.
Mesh Shaders (nVidia) = Primitive Shaders (AMD).
Same function with different names.... on AMD it is executed by Geometric Engine.

VRS is executed on AMD by Geometric Engine too.

And just to add a bit more.

Texture Space Shading = Sample Feedback ;)
Again MS is a bit late: https://devblogs.nvidia.com/texture-space-shading/

MS is basically implementing in DirectX the features nVidia added to GPU with Turing and AMD added with RDNA.
 
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ethomaz

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Did I say they would refuse to support it? No I said you just can't make an API and then use it without the company allowing it.
Do you think APIs are a basic bit of software that anyone can just knock up? They Are far from it. On the PS4 Sonys API was ultra basic that allowed close access to the GPU. Things have changed. APIs are far more important as can be seen by the amount of innovations coming out via them.
Ray Tracing is only supported via Vulcan and Direct X at this point. Open GL doesnt do it even. If it was easy everyone would have it.
Again wrong.

Anybody can make an API open or closed source without even talk with AMD... there is documentation enough to you do that.

API never changed it is still an abstraction layer to facilitate to execute GPU calls.

Second wrong claim.
OpenGL has RTX support with GL_NVX_raytracing.
They will add RDNA RT support when AMD launch the GPU.

Why do you talk about something you have no ideia?
 
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Tripolygon

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Did I say they would refuse to support it? No I said you just can't make an API and then use it without the company allowing it.
False, you can write your own API without permission from AMD, they freely allow that. APIs are just abstraction layers to make software development easier for cross platform and multi device development.


Do you think APIs are a basic bit of software that anyone can just knock up? They Are far from it.
Yes API are easy to write for a software programmer.

On the PS4 Sonys API was ultra basic that allowed close access to the GPU.
No, PS4 has 2 APIs;

GNM - Low level API that allows you to write directly to GPU meaning you can create a mesh shader implementation yourself for your own specific game engine

GNMX - Is very similar to DirectX and Vulkan. Anything DX can do, GNMX can do. PSSL is Sony's shader language similar to Microsoft's HLSL



Things have changed. APIs are far more important as can be seen by the amount of innovations coming out via them.
Yes APIs are important for platform and hardware agnostic development. It makes things non-vendor specific. You know who is a part of Khronos and a Promoter member? Sony.

Ray Tracing is only supported via Vulcan and Direct X at this point. Open GL doesnt do it even. If it was easy everyone would have it.
You are clueless, you know what opengl and vulkan has in common? They are both made by Khronos Group.
OpenGL supports ray tracing, but it is a vendor specific extension made by IMGTec for their hardware.
 
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Mesh Shaders (nVidia) = Primitive Shaders (AMD).
Same function with different names.... on AMD it is executed by Geometric Engine.

VRS is executed on AMD by Geometric Engine too.

And just to add a bit more.

Texture Space Shading = Sample Feedback ;)
Again MS is a bit late: https://devblogs.nvidia.com/texture-space-shading/

MS is basically implementing in DirectX the features nVidia added to GPU with Turing and AMD added with RDNA.
Well the whole point was that they are both dealing with the same technology, it is just being called different things. No one is lacking key features from rdna 2 like some fanboys are trying to portray. :p
 

LazyParrot

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Did I say they would refuse to support it? No I said you just can't make an API and then use it without the company allowing it.
That's nonsense. And even if it were true, AMD is obviously allowing it for Sony, so what's the problem?
Do you think APIs are a basic bit of software that anyone can just knock up?
"Anyone"? No. But Sony has, like, programmers who specialize in this kind of stuff, you know?
On the PS4 Sonys API was ultra basic that allowed close access to the GPU. Things have changed. APIs are far more important as can be seen by the amount of innovations coming out via them.
Source: your ass.
Ray Tracing is only supported via Vulcan and Direct X at this point. Open GL doesnt do it even. If it was easy everyone would have it.
I actually had no idea whether or not OpenGL supports raytracing, but going by what others have posted, it seems like it does. So you're wrong about that as well. Can't say I'm shocked.
 

ethomaz

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False, you can write your own API without permission from AMD, they freely allow that. APIs are just abstraction layers to make software development easier for cross platform and multi device development.



Yes API are easy to write for a software programmer.


No, PS4 has 2 APIs;

GNM - Low level API that allows you to write directly to GPU meaning you can create a mesh shader implementation yourself for your own specific game engine

GNMX - Is very similar to DirectX and Vulkan. Anything DX can do, GNMX can do. PSSL is Sony's shader language similar to Microsoft's HLSL




Yes APIs are important for platform and hardware agnostic development. It makes things non-vendor specific. You know who is a part of Khronos and a Promoter member? Sony.


You are clueless, you know what opengl and vulkan has in common? They are both made by Khronos Group.
OpenGL supports ray tracing, but it is a vendor specific extension made by IMGTec for their hardware.
He has no ideia what he is talking about.

In 2002 I made a API for database access in PHP in the company I become trainee because at time there none made by the community.
The ideia was simple I make simple functions to Connect, Query and Execute independent of the database you choose to connect... the hard work, deal with the specific database commands I coded myself.

So people start to use that API instead to use the specific functions for each database they where using making everything easy.

I never asked the owners of Oracle, SQL Server, MySQL, Firebird or PostgreSQL if I can do that because you can.

I can even today create a API for graphics in C++ and nobody will block me... it just too much time consuming and there are already options way more advanced on market (even my PHP API I replaces when the community started to work in something better and with more database support).

What AMD and nVidia can help you is giving advices for the best code path in terms of performance to help you code your API.
But it is not required... you can do the API without their help.
 
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SonGoku

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Unless you are using Direct X, you dont have access to those features.

So it looks like as Sony wont have access to Direct X, the PS5 is going to lack some absolute key features.
Uh that's not how any of it works, RDNA2 HW is compliant with DX12 feature set. As long as the hardware features are present they can be exploited with any API built to take advantage of RDN2 feature set.
Just like this gen PS4 had its own API that exploited all the same features found in DX11

Collaboration between MS & GPU manufacturers to define the next DX API its nothing new and has been happening forever

Yeah well but if you have to wrote it everytime for your engine, like the whole logic behind it,
lol you realize PS5 will have its own API designed around RDNA2 features and any extra customizations they add
Xbox has many more things up its sleeve then PS5 like DirectML
Funny thing PS4Pro GPU is compliant with DirectML
Their Ray Tracing efforts(both path and audio) are way better than PS5
Didn't realize you were a dev with access to dev kits, tell us more.
 
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Silver Wattle

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Did I say they would refuse to support it? No I said you just can't make an API and then use it without the company allowing it.
Do you think APIs are a basic bit of software that anyone can just knock up? They Are far from it. On the PS4 Sonys API was ultra basic that allowed close access to the GPU. Things have changed. APIs are far more important as can be seen by the amount of innovations coming out via them.
Ray Tracing is only supported via Vulcan and Direct X at this point. Open GL doesnt do it even. If it was easy everyone would have it.
The Mental gymnastics of fanboys is on another level.
 

SonGoku

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PS4 didn't support the same ones than PS3, and we don't know what is going to support PS5. We can't assume it will support -or that will only support- the same ones than PS4. Switch uses Vulkan, so maybe PS5 supports it too.
I don't know, maybe Sony supports both or even OpenGL too and allows devs to use whatever they prefer. Who knows, let's see and wait.
Why would PS5 use Vulcan? it would be a downgrade more overhead and less features . PS5 API will be designed around its GPU feature set (custom RDNA2) with as low level access as possible to reduce overhead to the minimum.
No I said you just can't make an API and then use it without the company allowing it.
MS doesn't own AMD graphics IP (RDNA2 feature set) they don't have to "allow" anything
Think for a moment what GPU manufacturer in their right mind would hand over IP control to MS?
 
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SenjutsuSage

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OP is flat out wrong, Even if it were true both consoles would have about the same fps thanks to dynamic resolution is the consensus among experts. Next gen isn't going to be an fps war. Age of compute bottlenecks is behind us in most cases.

You couldn't be more wrong here. 60fps or well above 30fps at pc quality ultra settings is the fight
Primitive shaders = mesh shaders. There are a lot of stuff they haven't talked about, we know that from statements from developers. Edit: And the geometry engine is pretty much a VRS component.

??? What you just said doesn't make sense. There is no connection that can be made from "geometry engine" and automatic VRS support... Primitive Shaders was an RDNA1 feature. It was the only new graphics feature added in RDNA 1, and it wasn't new, it was in Vega, but never exposed or activated in a driver for whatever reason. So what you just said isn't proof.
 

VFXVeteran

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They don't use it on their game consoles. Never have. And they would need MS to allow them to use it, and I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be.

I didn't say they use it on their game consoles. But they do use very close eqivalent (wrapper) for their shaders . You are trying to portray like Sony doesn't have access to hardware features just because they don't use DX 12 to develop their games. It doesn't matter what the API is. All they are interested in is what the graphics card can do. Period. Getting the functionality from the graphics card can be any API they want so the OP is bogus since API doesn't drive graphics features.
 
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rnlval

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False 2x.

Anybody can write an API using the AMD documentation.
API is just an abstraction layer to made the direct drivers calls.

MS and AMD worked together to make the DXR 1.1 API... not RDNA 2... MS has nothing to do with RDNA 2 development.
AMD is on the back foot on supporting DirectX12 Ultimate hardware features.

From https://www.anandtech.com/show/14579/all-ryzen-qa-with-amd-ceo-dr-lisa-su
David Wang, AMD: We started RDNA before the Sony engagement. I think RDNA is revolutionary, and it is very flexible in terms of being able to be customized for different types of workloads.
NAVI was designed before the Sony engagement, hence debunking pro-Sony news such as https://segmentnext.com/2018/06/13/amd-navi-sony-playstation-5/
 

mitchman

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??? What you just said doesn't make sense. There is no connection that can be made from "geometry engine" and automatic VRS support... Primitive Shaders was an RDNA1 feature. It was the only new graphics feature added in RDNA 1, and it wasn't new, it was in Vega, but never exposed or activated in a driver for whatever reason. So what you just said isn't proof.
Primitive shaders have been expanded to handle mesh shading in RDNA2, afaik.
 
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SonGoku

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Sony does not talk much about Ray Tracing unlike Microsoft.
Project Mara also demonstrates their Ray Tracing efforts and acts as a demo
I didn't realize Sony showcased their games and tech demos already...
Sony didn't talk much if any about tessellation and other GCN features on the PS4 reveal yet their implementation was up to par with the competition

They barely revealed the PS5 and didn't waste time discussing standardized features that are not unique to them.
 

Bernkastel

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I didn't realize Sony showcased their games and tech demos already...
Sony didn't talk much if any about tessellation and other GCN features on the PS4 reveal yet their implementation was up to par with the competition

They barely revealed the PS5 and didn't waste time discussing standardized features that are not unique to them.
You mean half of the reveal talking about 3D Audio which is also present on Xbox Series X, called Spatial Audio. Xbox had Spatial Audio in Xbox One X, but it was a purely software, now they have a dedicated audio chip, also apart from their own Windows Sonic they will also support Dolby Atmos and DTS:X. And theres also Audio Ray Tracing(Sony barely mentioned it in the Wired article and Cerny Reveal) and Project Acoustics.
They promoted a feature that is more mature on the other platform.
 

gamerforever

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It does feel amd are backing microsoft more, which is bizarre. They need to know which side of their bread is buttered.
 

SonGoku

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You mean half of the reveal talking about 3D Audio which is also present on Xbox Series X, called Spatial Audio. Xbox had Spatial Audio in Xbox One X, but it was a purely software, now they have a dedicated audio chip, also apart from their own Windows Sonic they will also support Dolby Atmos and DTS:X. And theres also Audio Ray Tracing
If you compare it to a software solution you are missing the point, Cerny made it clear they needed to dedicate vast amounts of processing power to audio, that it was often neglected because devs couldn't spare resources on it but now they have dedicated hw so that audio isn't compromised due to limited resources.
An Atmos license is not equivalent, their solution offers a standardized spec across all users for devs to target, dolby does not.

The scale of MS implementation is unknown or whether their audio chip has the same potential, that's irrelevant to Sony. They dedicated as much time to audio because it is one of the pillars for their vision for next gen

And theres also Audio Ray Tracing(Sony barely mentioned it in the Wired article and Cerny Reveal) and Project Acoustics.
They promoted a feature that is more mature on the other platform.
Cerny talked about the expectation of GPU performance and features for a new gen as part of the evolution that they ticked all those boxes he just didn't focus on it to talk about the new stuff

Project Acoustics its an audio rt engine, 3rd parties will use their own engines so the difference is moot for multiplatforms
Sony first party each has their own engine and will use their own implementation, they are after all the ones who will exploit PS5 hw the most. For all we know there's games in development with audio rt but Sony hasn't revealed or discussed games yet!
Such as Smartshift from AMD - am I right?
Correct, Cerny didn't waste any time discussing smartshift, he merely named dropped it and moved on to the next subject
 
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Rightisright

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Again wrong.

Anybody can make an API open or closed source without even talk with AMD... there is documentation enough to you do that.

API never changed it is still an abstraction layer to facilitate to execute GPU calls.

Second wrong claim.
OpenGL has RTX support with GL_NVX_raytracing.
They will add RDNA RT support when AMD launch the GPU.

Why do you talk about something you have no ideia?
Nvidia only supports Vulkan and Direct X for Ray Tracing.

AMD only supports Direct X at this point.

And no, you need the GPU to support your API. That is why Nvidia and AMD list which APIs are supported.
 
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Rightisright

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Why would PS5 use Vulcan? it would be a downgrade more overhead and less features . PS5 API will be designed around its GPU feature set (custom RDNA2) with as low level access as possible to reduce overhead to the minimum.

MS doesn't own AMD graphics IP (RDNA2 feature set) they don't have to "allow" anything
Think for a moment what GPU manufacturer in their right mind would hand over IP control to MS?
You misunderstand me, I didnt say AMD would give control over their IP to Microsoft. I was saying that you cant make up an API called SonGuku API and use it on a graphics card without either Nvidia or AMD supporting it.
 
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Rightisright

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It does feel amd are backing microsoft more, which is bizarre. They need to know which side of their bread is buttered.
Not really, I just think MS and Direct X can offer AMD more at this point. And Sony don't let others use their APIs outside of PS, so its not like they can offer an API on a mass scale.
 
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Rightisright

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I didn't say they use it on their game consoles. But they do use very close eqivalent (wrapper) for their shaders . You are trying to portray like Sony doesn't have access to hardware features just because they don't use DX 12 to develop their games. It doesn't matter what the API is. All they are interested in is what the graphics card can do. Period. Getting the functionality from the graphics card can be any API they want so the OP is bogus since API doesn't drive graphics features.
I know Sony has it's own APIs for PS, and one of them actually offers closer to the metal than Direct X on XBone does.
However what I am saying is that moving forward APIs are going to be playing a far bigger role than they have previously. Nearly all of the movement in efficiencies such as VRS, Mesh Shading, RT etc is heavily reliant on APIs.
What MS is doing with Direct X Ultimate is very exciting. And obviously AMD has been working together with Microsoft on tuning Direct X for RDNA 2.
 

Panajev2001a

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I know Sony has it's own APIs for PS, and one of them actually offers closer to the metal than Direct X on XBone does.
However what I am saying is that moving forward APIs are going to be playing a far bigger role than they have previously. Nearly all of the movement in efficiencies such as VRS, Mesh Shading, RT etc is heavily reliant on APIs.
What MS is doing with Direct X Ultimate is very exciting. And obviously AMD has been working together with Microsoft on tuning Direct X for RDNA 2.

nVIDIA has VRS and mesh shaders first, not sure how they are an AMD invention for DirectX.
Second, as a third party you tend to write wrapper code for such functionality where there is one to one mapping (mesh shaders vs Geometry Engine, etc...) while yes potentially delaying fuller utilisation of each feature where the one to one mapping is not possible.
Good API’s to make something easier to handle are important, but they expose capability built into the HW.

Whether the RDNA2 GPU AMD has worked with Sony on has VRS or whether they are using an extended version of the Multi Resolution Rendering they had on PS4 Pro, which they need for BC, to improve VR performance (look at Robinson: The Journey how they split the scene in different multiresolution regions) I do not know... we shall see :).
 
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