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American History X- did you think Derek did enough for redemption?

Mister Apoc

Demigod of Troll Threads
something I always wondered watching this film is I always felt that Derek never really did enough for redemption. Yes he renounced his Neo-Nazi beliefs when he got out of prison but I never felt there were scenes of him wheeping about it, or scenes of him showing deep reflection on the evil he committed. He was still hanging out with Seth (the fat neo nazi friend of his), and was still willing to get back with his girlfriend if she left, when he should of got them both out of his lives as fast as he could. I feel like there were never scenes post-prison that show him vulnerable and really remorsing about his guilt. He kind of just tries to bury all of that and move on..

thoughts?

 

Ulysses 31

Member
I don't think he's redeemed but still just beginning his path to redemption by the end of the movie.

Guess you wanted scenes of him feeling remorse, regret and apologizing for past events?
 

Arcadialane

Member
He never actually went back on his beliefs, all the things he talked about In the movie in terms black crime / immigration etc, I think the writers dug themselves in a whole by making it a bit too true, so they just said 'oh look he meets a nice black guy in prison so he's not just irrational hating every individual black person now'

The writers actually talked about not making him a stereotypical dumb nazi, and wanted to be more understanding and charitable about why that type of person would think the way they do.
 
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8bitpill

Member
I mean, he did get ganged rape in the shower.

I always looked at it like he was making the effort to have his friend and girl friend get out of that life style.

The film takes place over a short time period after his reform and release from prison. It's a small scope to have a lot of filler with I'm reforming.

 

Blond

Banned
He never actually went back on his beliefs, all the things he talked about In the movie in terms black crime / immigration etc, I think the writers dug themselves in a whole by making it a bit too true, so they just said 'oh look he meets a nice black guy in prison so he's not just irrational hating every individual black person now'

The writers actually talked about not making him a stereotypical dumb nazi, and wanted to be more understanding and charitable about why that type of person would think the way they do.
I think that was just him reconnecting with people he would eventually cut ties with. I did that recently during a trip to Houston, I caught up with a bunch of people I use to run the streets with and well…they’re doing the same bullshit. I played face for a little bit but that’s the last time they’re going to hear from me.
 
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Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
This is so closely related to politics that I will not get deep into it. I will just say that I think anyone *to a certain point* is worthy of redemption. Derek does not fall into my own threshold. He literally stomped a persons face into a curb because of his prejudice. There is no coming back from that in my opinion.


That's all I will say. Thread on ignore out of my own sanity and forum safety.
 
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BigBooper

Gold Member
You're kind of asking for the Disney version here. Most felons go back to their old lifestyle.

It was weird that he was released so quickly. I don't remember the sentence, but at least he still looked young. That should have been a twenty years to life sentence.
 
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Blade2.0

Member
No he stomped the person's face for robbing his car.
We all know it would've gone differently had they not been black. Frankly, I believe Derek never thought he deserved redemption anyways. He was just trying to live a bit better.
 

thefool

Member
He understands the delusion he let himself in and the wrongdoings he committed. That’s how we transform, through reflection not some kind of religion catharsis.
 

clem84

Gold Member
something I always wondered watching this film is I always felt that Derek never really did enough for redemption. Yes he renounced his Neo-Nazi beliefs when he got out of prison but I never felt there were scenes of him weeping about it, or scenes of him showing deep reflection on the evil he committed. He was still hanging out with Seth (the fat neo nazi friend of his), and was still willing to get back with his girlfriend if she left, when he should of got them both out of his lives as fast as he could. I feel like there were never scenes post-prison that show him vulnerable and really remorsing about his guilt. He kind of just tries to bury all of that and move on..

thoughts?
I haven't seen the movie in a while but I remember the mirror scene toward the end of the movie when he was looking at his Swastika tattoo feeling deep remorse and regret over what he had become.
 
One thing is for certain.

Edward Nortons basketball scene was hilarious. Dribbles like someone who went into theater in high school instead of sports.
 

sircaw

Just a lil finicky
in my eyes i think he did enough, if, in his heart, he knows what he did in his past was completely wrong, i don't see the need for him to prove it to other people.

Making up for it, that is a completely different thing

I think everyone deserves a chance at redemption.
 

IDKFA

Member
I think everyone deserves a chance at redemption.

I used to think the same, but there are some people who I think do not deserve any chance of redemption.

One that comes to mind, was the murder of Baby P in the UK about 12 years ago.

Baby P was one when he died, and he because the parents beat him to death by his mother and his mother's boyfriend.

How the fuck can you beat a baby to death? Some of the injuries that child suffered were just horrifying.

I wouldn't give those two fuckers any chance of redemption. I've never been a fan of the death penalty, but I wouldn't care if they were put to death for their crimes. I'd even like to see them have the same treatment they gave that baby and get beaten to death.

So, in my mind, it depends on what the person has done, but some people don't deserve any chance.
 

sircaw

Just a lil finicky
I used to think the same, but there are some people who I think do not deserve any chance of redemption.

One that comes to mind, was the murder of Baby P in the UK about 12 years ago.

Baby P was one when he died, and he because the parents beat him to death by his mother and his mother's boyfriend.

How the fuck can you beat a baby to death? Some of the injuries that child suffered were just horrifying.

I wouldn't give those two fuckers any chance of redemption. I've never been a fan of the death penalty, but I wouldn't care if they were put to death for their crimes. I'd even like to see them have the same treatment they gave that baby and get beaten to death.

So, in my mind, it depends on what the person has done, but some people don't deserve any chance.
I get what you are saying, but are those people that killed that poor child seeking redemption or just seeking lighter sentencing.

I am talking about genuine people here that did wrong and absolutely 100% regret it, up all night, can't sleep, hate themselves for what they have done, and would take it back in a heartbeat.

From History x, you can see from his viewpoint that he was sorry in his heart. We have an unfair viewpoint in the film's case.

People that murder children, torture etc there is something fundamentally broken inside them, from that standpoint i don't think they are cable of looking for redemption themselves.

It's a hard one for sure, but as a society, we need to be able to find a way to forgive, its what makes us human and them the animals of the world.
 
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Thaedolus

Gold Member
Isn’t there an alternate ending where he goes back to the nazis after his bro dies? Seems like that path wasn’t far from the writer’s minds
 

BigBooper

Gold Member
Isn’t there an alternate ending where he goes back to the nazis after his bro dies? Seems like that path wasn’t far from the writer’s minds
I don't know, but even in the release version it doesn't say what happened afterwards if I remember correctly. I think it's certainly possible he went for revenge. His car getting jacked broke him before. What would his brother getting murdered do?
 

Kenpachii

Gold Member
It was a good movie because u saw him go through the motions that are recognisable in many more ways then just pure racism.

Its the getting feed bullshit for most of your life, then start to become the top dog, then start to realize its all bullshit because u are forced into reality in some form, and then change of life happens which creates huge frictions, then the next step is facing reality which will either again break you or you move forwards.

However, the guy straight up kills a person on the street in the most horrific way, which in my view directly disqualify's him for redemption. At some point u passed the line. The amount of carnage he also did by inspiring others to radicalize which now is completely out of his control which will do massive amounts of carnage on top of it.
 
So he’s a shit dude, so let’s dispense with that right away. A literal Neo Nazi lunatic. There is not a defense for that.

Now, he killed a dude who was at his house to kill him and his family. So it’s not like hunted down some innocent black kid. Still cold blooded and awful what he did, but that should be taken into account when we are talking about what he actually did. It was gang violence going in both directions.

What he did to the dude on the curb was monster psychopath shit. There is no “redeeming” that from a human perspective. You don’t get to take that back. The story is just about him learning that come back from being a psychopath lunatic to an actual halfway decent person. And that people can do. That’s the story. It’s redemption from the sense of change within a person. Doesn’t erase anything or make it ok that he stomped some guy to death on the sidewalk. It is a movie about a man learning he was wrong and trying to change for the better.
 

Raven117

Gold Member
So he’s a shit dude, so let’s dispense with that right away. A literal Neo Nazi lunatic. There is not a defense for that.

Now, he killed a dude who was at his house to kill him and his family. So it’s not like hunted down some innocent black kid. Still cold blooded and awful what he did, but that should be taken into account when we are talking about what he actually did. It was gang violence going in both directions.

What he did to the dude on the curb was monster psychopath shit. There is no “redeeming” that from a human perspective. You don’t get to take that back. The story is just about him learning that come back from being a psychopath lunatic to an actual halfway decent person. And that people can do. That’s the story. It’s redemption from the sense of change within a person. Doesn’t erase anything or make it ok that he stomped some guy to death on the sidewalk. It is a movie about a man learning he was wrong and trying to change for the better.
Its this.

I think his character understands there is little redemption for him or anything was "erased." But he was working on being a better person.
 

Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
You are not a real person. get out of here.
I mean it by the fact that this movie has had a very bad influence on young people.

The film itself is good, but it is reckless for me that many of today's young people take the ideology of the film and as it is raw, they do the rituals of supremacy.

For my part, this movie should be seen very rarely.
 

RPS37

Member
Speaking of Redemption, anyone see the movie Redemption about Stanley Tookie Williams? I feel like this is required viewing and a great accompanying movie to AHX.
 

MGHA

Member
I mean it by the fact that this movie has had a very bad influence on young people.

The film itself is good, but it is reckless for me that many of today's young people take the ideology of the film and as it is raw, they do the rituals of supremacy.

For my part, this movie should be seen very rarely.
Yes but it had to show it that way so you could see how destructive it is, not just to your self but to those around you, and how a person like that can change.
 

Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
Yes but it had to show it that way so you could see how destructive it is, not just to your self but to those around you, and how a person like that can change.
Yes, there is no doubt about that, but we must also take into account that there are people with low self-esteem and low tolerance for frustration who, due to their psychiatric illness, take a lot of influence on television.

This movie should be taken with care, not just anyone should see it.

Or restrict it to a certain age.
 
Yes, there is no doubt about that, but we must also take into account that there are people with low self-esteem and low tolerance for frustration who, due to their psychiatric illness, take a lot of influence on television.

This movie should be taken with care, not just anyone should see it.

Or restrict it to a certain age.
It’s rated R. It’s not like we are showing it to kids in social studies. You sound like the same people that want to ban rap music or certain video games.
 

Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
It’s rated R. It’s not like we are showing it to kids in social studies. You sound like the same people that want to ban rap music or certain video games.
I would say it if it was not a problem, let's not compare music or video games with a stupid ideology that is made for people with low self-esteem and mental disorder.
 
I would say it if it was not a problem, let's not compare music or video games with a stupid ideology that is made for people with low self-esteem and mental disorder.
Really? You think a movie had more impact than rap music that glorifies drug dealing, abuse of women, gun violence and has done so for literally decades? You think the cultural impact of America History X is so dangerous that it should be restricted but you don’t think it’s comparable to rap music? I would suggest you should try to think about that more.

Just to be clear, I don’t think rap music should be banned or restricted at all. But if your going to get all bent out of shape about this movie, I would expect you to at least be consistent.
 
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Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
Really? You think a movie had more impact than rap music that glorifies drug dealing, abuse of women, gun violence and has done so for literally decades? You think the cultural impact of America History X is so dangerous that it should be restricted but you don’t think it’s comparable to rap music? I would suggest you should try to think about that more.

Just to be clear, I don’t think rap music should be banned or restricted at all. But if your going to get all bent out of shape about this movie, I would expect you to at least be consistent.
Take the time and see how the internet and social media have had a terrible influence on young people.

And I know that music also contains inappropriate themes, everything is harmful.

But an ideology like the one that stupid Hitler had ... How much it has harmed young people.

Taking this movie itself is a bad influence.
 
Take the time and see how the internet and social media have had a terrible influence on young people.

And I know that music also contains inappropriate themes, everything is harmful.

But an ideology like the one that stupid Hitler had ... How much it has harmed young people.

Taking this movie itself is a bad influence.
You realize the movie is against Nazism, right? That’s one of the major points of the whole thing. You’ve actually watched it? Because it seems like you’re confused.
 
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Tschumi

Member
I can't watch this film, I hear there's a curb-stomp and i just can't even... I've seen enough scenes like that...
 

AV

We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
Take the time and see how the internet and social media have had a terrible influence on young people.

And I know that music also contains inappropriate themes, everything is harmful.

But an ideology like the one that stupid Hitler had ... How much it has harmed young people.

Taking this movie itself is a bad influence.

Are you confusing this movie with Birth of a Nation or something? It's like saying Requiem for a Dream glorifies drug use.

If someone watches American History X and it encourages them to become more racist then frankly nothing was going to deter them.
 
I view Derek’s loss at the end cementing his path to leave that life behind and reach out to others so they don’t make his mistakes. From Derek’s conversation with the High School employee you could tell he was going to be reluctant to reach out and do more for others outside his own family. He just wanted to keep his head down and family safe. Now he’ll have more guilt to atone for Danny’s death and go the path he wasn’t willing to travel. So my stance on Derek is that he hadn’t redeemed himself, but he now has his best chance of achieving it. But that’s just my perception of “What could’ve happened “ after the credits roll.
 

Raven117

Gold Member
I mean it by the fact that this movie has had a very bad influence on young people.

The film itself is good, but it is reckless for me that many of today's young people take the ideology of the film and as it is raw, they do the rituals of supremacy.

For my part, this movie should be seen very rarely.
Dude, what? By this logic, we need to ban video games (glorifies violence), Marvel Movies (glorifies violence), and a whole host of other things.

Art is almost always challenging in some ways. American History X is a brutal movie designed to show how veering a little off course can send you and your family into a complete tailspin of hate. Im not for censoring anything, but even if one were inclined to ban stuff that glorifies dark behavior, this movie isn't that.

No....no...absolutely not. This is R (so, to the posters above point, its not being shown to 13 year olds). It is FAR from a "how to" video on how to be a white supremist. It shows how lost souls can in fact

The more I think about your post, the more sad I am for you and people that think like you. I'm sorry the world is not blue skies, rainbows, and unicorns. Its often brutal and difficult. This whole notion that the darker impulses of human nature can be simply ignored and it goes away is a laughable fallacy of the young (and the internet/twitter world...which hilariously they use their own dark nature to bully and force the world to their view...)

You need to examine yourself and how you view challenging content. Art, especially darker art, helps us humans analyze ourselves to come to a better understanding of human nature and allow us to in fact be better.
 
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DragoonKain

Neighbours from Hell
I never really thought AHX was about Derek's redemption. It was about the wave of carnage and ripple effects his actions caused and him suffering the consequences of those. It wasn't a redemption story.
 
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cormack12

Gold Member
I still think arnie should have rescued john connor at the end. And the T1000 should have used the knives instead of the curb stomp
 

Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
You realize the movie is against Nazism, right? That’s one of the major points of the whole thing. You’ve actually watched it? Because it seems like you’re confused.
I saw this movie like 5 times.


And yes.... I know the message.... But you know sometimes the people is stupid and they take influence to the main character and the behaivor like a '' badass guy''
 
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Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
Dude, what? By this logic, we need to ban video games (glorifies violence), Marvel Movies (glorifies violence), and a whole host of other things.

Art is almost always challenging in some ways. American History X is a brutal movie designed to show how veering a little off course can send you and your family into a complete tailspin of hate. Im not for censoring anything, but even if one were inclined to ban stuff that glorifies dark behavior, this movie isn't that.

No....no...absolutely not. This is R (so, to the posters above point, its not being shown to 13 year olds). It is FAR from a "how to" video on how to be a white supremist. It shows how lost souls can in fact

The more I think about your post, the more sad I am for you and people that think like you. I'm sorry the world is not blue skies, rainbows, and unicorns. Its often brutal and difficult. This whole notion that the darker impulses of human nature can be simply ignored and it goes away is a laughable fallacy of the young (and the internet/twitter world...which hilariously they use their own dark nature to bully and force the world to their view...)

You need to examine yourself and how you view challenging content. Art, especially darker art, helps us humans analyze ourselves to come to a better understanding of human nature and allow us to in fact be better.
Im not saying that have to bee censored.. But this movie must be take with carefully.... Not show to mediocre people with a close mind and with shitty hitler thought.
 
I saw this movie like 5 times.


And yes.... I know the message.... But you know sometimes the people is stupid and they take influence to the main character and the behaivor like a '' badass guy''
That “badass guy” gets raped in the ass by other Nazis like 20 minutes later… are you sure you saw the movie?
 

Scotty W

Member
Im not saying that have to bee censored.. But this movie must be take with carefully.... Not show to mediocre people with a close mind and with shitty hitler thought.
Sounds like you find his arguments persuasive, but you can’t admit it to yourself, and you are projecting that insecurity onto others, and are now trying to control what others are allowed to do think say.
 

voidenberg

Member
I watched this movie only once many years ago. I remember thinking he still has the same beliefs but just understood that things aren't just black and white. No pun intended.
I think he was still a nazi by the end of the movie.
 

Amory

Member
No, I don't think you could say he was redeemed.

I haven't seen the movie in a long time, but I don't think that was the point anyway.
 

Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
Sounds like you find his arguments persuasive, but you can’t admit it to yourself, and you are projecting that insecurity onto others, and are now trying to control what others are allowed to do think say.


I have no problem admitting my mistakes when they are present.

I am confident in words. It is only the message of bad influences that I want to convey.
 

Hulk_Smash

Banned
Dude, what? By this logic, we need to ban video games (glorifies violence), Marvel Movies (glorifies violence), and a whole host of other things.

Art is almost always challenging in some ways. American History X is a brutal movie designed to show how veering a little off course can send you and your family into a complete tailspin of hate. Im not for censoring anything, but even if one were inclined to ban stuff that glorifies dark behavior, this movie isn't that.

No....no...absolutely not. This is R (so, to the posters above point, its not being shown to 13 year olds). It is FAR from a "how to" video on how to be a white supremist. It shows how lost souls can in fact

The more I think about your post, the more sad I am for you and people that think like you. I'm sorry the world is not blue skies, rainbows, and unicorns. Its often brutal and difficult. This whole notion that the darker impulses of human nature can be simply ignored and it goes away is a laughable fallacy of the young (and the internet/twitter world...which hilariously they use their own dark nature to bully and force the world to their view...)

You need to examine yourself and how you view challenging content. Art, especially darker art, helps us humans analyze ourselves to come to a better understanding of human nature and allow us to in fact be better.
Plus, if we ignore the darker impulses we would have to ignore some of the far left’s heroes like Che Guevara, Hugo Chavez, communism in general, and all the CHAZ/BLM riots and murders.

And they’re not having that.
 
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