• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

American millennials' mental and physical health is on the decline — and they're on track to die faster than Gen X

betrayal

Banned
Why are you cunts incapable of looking at this with any nuance? Who said it’s “reducible to their gut”? When I say it’s a factor, it does not mean any and all mental health issue is directly a result of poor gut health. It simply means exactly what I said: it’s a factor. I swear to god, you two are capable of thinking only in terms of 0 and 1.

Cool story, bro.

Everything can be a factor for getting a depression. Even your forums posts here can be a reason for some people to lose faith in humanity and get a depression. But that's not what i was talking about. I'm just saying that gut bacteria don't cause or heal depression and that this is backed up the fact that there are zero known cases worldwide, where gut bactera either caused or healed a depression.
Additionally i explicitly said that gut bacteria can be factor, but not because of "HEY BUDDY I'M BACTERIA FUKIN' UP UR BRAIN", but because of the symptoms that can reinforce the development of a depression. So yes, we're literally saying almost the same thing, but you just don't understand this. And please, for god's sake, read (or let your caregiver read it out loud to you) what i've wrote before you hit the reply button.
 

RealGassy

Banned
If otherwise healthy people suffer depression, it's due to a complex relationship between external stimuli, internal associations (aka coping mechanisms), and their overall physical health. Why would therapy concentrate on perception of the self and relationship with others so much otherwise?
How do you know that they are healthy?
Did you test for all of the hundreds of possible illnesses that manifest themselves as depression as one of the symptoms?

For gut bacteria causing depression on the other hand there doesn't even exist a single known case.
Somehow I find this very hard to believe.

Nobody is claiming that gut biome is solely responsible for symptoms of depression. Merely that it could be one of the multitude of possible causes.

The whole point I'm making with SAD, thyriod, is that depression is a symptom, not an illness by itself.
And the doctors has to find the cause. And it could easily be wrecked gut as well as anything else.

Where cause rarely has anything to do with chakras or talking it out with the rabbi. Unless the problem in the particular case really is social isolation and loneliness (which has fairly well documented health outcomes).
 
Last edited:

betrayal

Banned
I agree with this but find it strange that you’re supporting space cadet’s post above. It’s completely contradictory to what you (and I) are saying — that it’s a factor that can have a compounding effect when combined with other factors. He explicitly says that poor gut health manifests physiologically, and poor mental health can be a result of physiological factors, but then confidently asserts that gut health can’t have anything to do with mental health. He’s all over the place and is throwing out ridiculous quantifications like 99% this and 80% that while misinterpreting and handwaving actual research. Ridiculous.

Actually it's quite congruent with what you're saying and it's just adding to the fact, that you don't understand your very own words.
 

Papa

Banned
Cool story, bro.

Everything can be a factor for getting a depression. Even your forums posts here can be a reason for some people to lose faith in humanity and get a depression. But that's not what i was talking about. I'm just saying that gut bacteria don't cause or heal depression and that this is backed up the fact that there are zero known cases worldwide, where gut bactera either caused or healed a depression.
Additionally i explicitly said that gut bacteria can be factor, but not because of "HEY BUDDY I'M BACTERIA FUKIN' UP UR BRAIN", but because of the symptoms that can reinforce the development of a depression. So yes, we're literally saying almost the same thing, but you just don't understand this. And please, for god's sake, read (or let your caregiver read it out loud to you) what i've wrote before you hit the reply button.

Holy fuck you are just too stupid to converse with
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
I agree with this but find it strange that you’re supporting space cadet’s post above. It’s completely contradictory to what you (and I) are saying — that it’s a factor that can have a compounding effect when combined with other factors. He explicitly says that poor gut health manifests physiologically, and poor mental health can be a result of physiological factors, but then confidently asserts that gut health can’t have anything to do with mental health. He’s all over the place and is throwing out ridiculous quantifications like 99% this and 80% that while misinterpreting and handwaving actual research. Ridiculous.
I don't put much stock into people who discount factors that are backed by science. At a minimum, we know that every organ in the body has a hormonal effect (that's literally how most organs communicate with one another and with the brain) and every system in the body is balanced against another.

Concern for gut health is as sensible as concern for heart health, for skin health, for dental health. I think the quackery that has surrounded gut health in the past decade is part of why people are skeptical.
 

betrayal

Banned
How do you know that they are healthy?
Did you test for all of the hundreds of possible illnesses that manifest themselves as depression as one of the symptoms?


Nobody is claiming that gut biome is solely responsible for symptoms depression. Marely that it is one of the multitude of possible causes.

The whole point I'm making with SAD, thyriod, is that depression is a symptom, not an illness by itself.
And the doctors has to find the cause.

Where cause rarely has anything to do with chakras or talking it out with the rabbi. Unless the problem really is social isolation and loneliness (which has fairly well documented health outcomes).

I agree with everything you have said.

The whole origin of this "discussion" is that i've contradicted a statement of somebody who losely said that gut bacteria can cause all kind of mental health problems.

After that all hell broke lose and Papa Papa had a mental breakdown because of his gut bacteria.
 
Last edited:

Papa

Banned
How do you know that they are healthy?
Did you test for all of the hundreds of possible illnesses that manifest themselves as depression as one of the symptoms?


Nobody is claiming that gut biome is solely responsible for symptoms depression. Marely that it is one of the multitude of possible causes.

The whole point I'm making with SAD, thyriod, is that depression is a symptom, not an illness by itself.
And the doctors has to find the cause.

Where cause rarely has anything to do with chakras or talking it out with the rabbi. Unless the problem really is social isolation and loneliness (which has fairly well documented health outcomes).

We know that general immunity is compromised by an unhealthy gut, often resulting from poor nutrition. Why would mental health — for which so much has been done to destigmatise it and treat it as any other health condition, albeit of the brain — be any different?

(I’m agreeing with you)
 

Papa

Banned
I agree with everything you have said.

The whole origin of this "discussion" is that i've contradicted a statement of somebody who losely said that gut bacteria can cause all kind of mental health problems.

After that all hell broke lose and Papa Papa had a mental breakdown because of his gut bacteria.

No, dumb cunt. The origin was when you said this:

“Some things mentioned in the thread are really dumb, like saying an improper gut flora leads to all kinds of mental health problems”

and then proceeded to handwave any research to the contrary and strawman any opposing arguments. For example when I say poor gut health can be a factor in mental health issues, you strawman it to me somehow claiming that poor gut health is the sole cause in mental breakdowns. You then go a step further and claim that poor gut health has no effect at all, all while making up your own statistics (99% this, 80% that) and projecting your dumb cuntery on to me 😂 Complete fucking idiocy.
 

RealGassy

Banned
We know that general immunity is compromised by an unhealthy gut, often resulting from poor nutrition. Why would mental health — for which so much has been done to destigmatise it and treat it as any other health condition, albeit of the brain — be any different?

(I’m agreeing with you)
Yes, even "betrayal" agreed that a strong course of antibiotics could wreck the gut biome, which could lead to nutritional deficiencies.
But then somehow followed it up with saying that the gut can't cause depression?
Or is he claiming that nutritional deficiencies can't manifest themselves as symptoms of depression?
 
Last edited:

Papa

Banned
Yes, even "betrayal" agreed that a strong course of antibiotics could wreck the gut biome, which could lead to nutritional deficiencies.
But then somehow followed it up with saying that gut can't cause depression?
Or is he claiming that nutritional deficiencies can't manifest themselves as symptoms of depression?

That’s my point. He’s constantly contradicting himself while sneering and projecting his idiocy onto others.
 

jufonuk

not tag worthy
The older I get the more I realize it's better to break rules to get ahead than to follow orders like a good little boy. As long as you keep your mouth shut, get your hustle on and keep a low profile, there is plenty of money to be made. Take the risks others aren't taking.

Here's a real true to life pro-tip: if you find a hustle which becomes lucrative, tell no one, never ever. Don't bring in your friends, your family, your loved ones, nobody. With quick money, ppl will quickly sour and turn on you to get theirs.
Stop. Selling your used and soiled underpants 😋
 

betrayal

Banned
We know that general immunity is compromised by an unhealthy gut, often resulting from poor nutrition. Why would mental health — for which so much has been done to destigmatise it and treat it as any other health condition, albeit of the brain — be any different?

Wat?

Because general immunity is compromised by an unhealthy gut caused by poor nutrition we just assume it's the same for mental health?

I don't even know where to start...so i just click on "POST REPLY" right now.
 

Tesseract

Banned
dysbiosis is certainly a thing and shit like ibs but i've never heard anyone tether gut flora to mental health in a way that isn't superficially serviceable (dietary changes)

i think the gut-brain axis stuff is a claptrap that leads nowhere, needs further studies
 

betrayal

Banned
Yes, even "betrayal" agreed that a strong course of antibiotics could wreck the gut biome, which could lead to nutritional deficiencies.
But then somehow followed it up with saying that the gut can't cause depression?
Or is he claiming that nutritional deficiencies can't manifest themselves as symptoms of depression?
That’s my point. He’s constantly contradicting himself while sneering and projecting his idiocy onto others.

If you kill your gut biome with antibiotics and suffer nutritional deficiences, than the symptoms of this nutritional deficiencies are caused by....nutritional deficiencies.

If you're getting a depression because of nutritional deficiencies than you get it because of the symptoms of the nutritional deficiencies. You do not get a depression because of your gut bacteria or the lack of them. You get the depression because you may develop physiological symptoms, caused by nutritional deficiencies, that on the long run can lead to the fact, that your psychological well-being can take a hit. To counter that people can get transfusions or enteral nutrition. So even if we theoretically assume (bare with me please, we're almost done) you would have had zero gut bacteria, you would still feel okay without any development of a depression (by the [non-]existance of gut bacteria).

If you're more into practical things we can schedule a meeting and i punch you 10, 20, 30, ...10000 times in your smartass faces with an imitation of a big black cock for the next few months and whenever you feel like it you tell me when you're feeling depressed. Than you guys disguise as professors and present your new study "Black cocks in the face lead to depression" to Harvard. Let's see how this goes.

You guys are just two keyboard warriors that have no clue about cause and effect and you are thinking that knowing how to use Google makes you some kind of Albert Einstein.
 
Last edited:

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Maybe we should just have a thread about kefir and sauerkraut. I don't know how much the rest of you know about a probiotic culture (I'm an expert), but biodiversity and total colony forming units (CFUs) are huge parts of it. It's not like you can buy the highest CFU and call it successful by counting up total CFU. If you screw up your gut biome, you bring indigestion to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is a long trip to the toilet, constipation, hormonal issues, malnutritional issues, and yes even depression.
What this means is the you health nuts, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase any ol' high CFU count probiotic, nor will they purchase any of these snake oil kombucha drinks. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but sauerkraut and milk kefir are the way to go.
Papa Papa and betrayal betrayal , publicly apologize and cancel your current vitamin regimen or you can kiss your successful YouTube weight-loss business goodbye.
 

RealGassy

Banned
If you kill your gut biome with antibiotics and suffer nutritional deficiences, than the symptoms of this nutritional deficiencies are caused by....nutritional deficiencies.

If you're getting a depression because of nutritional deficiencies than you get it because of the symptoms of the nutritional deficiencies. You do not get a depression because of your gut bacteria or the lack of them. You get the depression because you may develop physiological symptoms, caused by nutritional deficiencies, that on the long run can lead to the fact, that your psychological well-being can take a hit. To counter that people can get transfusions or enteral nutrition. So even if we theoretically assume (bare with me please, we're almost done) you would have had zero gut bacteria, you would still feel okay without any development of a depression (by the [non-]existance of gut bacteria).

If you're more into practical things we can schedule a meeting and i punch you 10, 20, 30, ...10000 times in your smartass faces with an imitation of a big black cock for the next few months and whenever you feel like it you tell me when you're feeling depressed. Than you guys disguise as professors and present your new study "Black cocks in the face lead to depression" to Harvard. Let's see how this goes.

You guys are just two keyboard warriors that have no clue about cause and effect and you are thinking that knowing how to use Google makes you some kind of Albert Einstein.
So if nutritional deficiencies cause symptoms which are exactly like symptoms of depression (per DSM), that somehow isn't depression?
Then how are you supposed to tell the difference?
Or is it considered "real" depression only when your chakras are malaligned?

And you're saying that if you transfuse all the nutrition - in theory - you don't need the gut at all, therefore you could have zero gut and have no nutritional deficiencies!

This is just amazing stuff.

Is your ego really that brittle that you have to twist your logic so hard to win an argument?
 
Last edited:
Even though I am a big fan of improving gut health via food and so forth, it is only one factor. Our diet is central to our health and I think we could do a lot to prevent and repair these issues by getting diet in line, but it's not a silver bullet.


Well, the spiritual state of society and playing fast and loose with the family structure certainly has an impact.

Mental health is complicated. If the decline was due to one factor, this topic wouldn't exist and the problem would already be solved.

I tend to think of mental health like a threshold. Why else would we call it "pushed over the edge"? Each thing in your life either pushes you closer to your personal "mental breakdown" threshold or moves you further away. Diet full of sugar? Your threshold is gonna be lower. Raised by an single parent? Definitely pushing closer to that threshold. Lack of religious/cultural underpinnings? Lower threshold. Environment where you are shielded from genuine challenge and excitement? And so forth.
I never said the breakdown of a two parent household didnt/doesnt have negative side effects. All I've ever said to matt, throughout all of this, is that, were I to HAZARD a guess what could have more of a negative effect on an individual or society between having a single mom and foods that no longer provide nutrition/sometimes even poison us, I'll venture to say the food has far more negative health effects in the longrun. I'm less interested in the "millenials are sad" part of this story and more concerned with "millenials are dying at a faster rate than past generations" part.

But no, I have no nuance or something lol.
 

betrayal

Banned
So if nutritional deficiencies cause symptoms which are exactly like symptoms of depression (per DSM), that somehow isn't depression?
Then how are you supposed to tell the difference?
Or is it considered "real" depression only when your chakras are malaligned?

And you're saying that if you transfuse all the nutrition - in theory - you don't need the gut at all, therefore you could have zero gut and have no nutritional deficiencies!

This is just amazing stuff.

Is your ego really that brittle that you have to twist your logic so hard to win an argument?


Cause and effect, my friend.

There are literally hundreds of different diseases that share many of the exact same symptoms. Just because the symptoms are the same doesn't mean the diseases are the same.

Regarding the transfusion staff, do you have any clue or knowledge about things like the short bowel syndrom and or inflammatory bowel diseases? This is a rhetorical question, of course.



Maybe we should just have a thread about kefir and sauerkraut. I don't know how much the rest of you know about a probiotic culture (I'm an expert), but biodiversity and total colony forming units (CFUs) are huge parts of it. It's not like you can buy the highest CFU and call it successful by counting up total CFU. If you screw up your gut biome, you bring indigestion to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is a long trip to the toilet, constipation, hormonal issues, malnutritional issues, and yes even depression.
What this means is the you health nuts, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase any ol' high CFU count probiotic, nor will they purchase any of these snake oil kombucha drinks. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but sauerkraut and milk kefir are the way to go.
Papa Papa and betrayal betrayal , publicly apologize and cancel your current vitamin regimen or you can kiss your successful YouTube weight-loss business goodbye.

I like Papa Papa anyway. No matter how he calls me ❤
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
I never said the breakdown of a two parent household didnt/doesnt have negative side effects. All I've ever said to matt, throughout all of this, is that, were I to HAZARD a guess what could have more of a negative effect on an individual or society between having a single mom and foods that no longer provide nutrition/sometimes even poison us, I'll venture to say the food has far more negative health effects in the longrun. I'm less interested in the "millenials are sad" part of this story and more concerned with "millenials are dying at a faster rate than past generations" part.

But no, I have no nuance or something lol.
I'm not accusing you of lacking nuance, I was just explaining my own thoughts on the topic.
 

RealGassy

Banned
There are literally hundreds of different diseases that share many of the exact same symptoms. Just because the symptoms are the same doesn't mean the diseases are the same.
Depression is a symptom (or a set of symptoms) and not a disease.
And there's quite a big difference between most illnesses and conditions - they can diagnosed via some sort of measurement.
I.e. you can test if a patient has a sleep apnea or a tape worm, Dvit defieciency, SIBO, hypothyroidism, b12 defieciency and so on.

In other words, unless you have tested for all the hundreds of different conditions which can manifest themselves as depression (a set of symptoms), you can't really rule them out and say that the pacient has "depression" and just prescribe them all the typical random pills that get prescribed in that case.

Because there's no way to tell the difference.
 
Last edited:

Ten_Fold

Member
Social media is one of the worst things for your mental if your not in a good spot in life. Please everyone take care of your physical and mental health. Take breaks from the internet, go out places and find something that brings you joy. Find a better job that you dont hate or find ways to make a living in the way that suits you best.
 

betrayal

Banned
Depression is a symptom (or a set of symptoms) and not a disease.
And there's quite a big difference between most illnesses and conditions - they can diagnosed via some sort of measurement.
I.e. you can test if a patient has a sleep apnea or a tape worm, Dvit defieciency, SIBO, hypothyroidism, b12 defieciency and so on.

In other words, unless you have tested for all the hundreds of different conditions which can manifest themselves as depression (a set of symptoms), you can't really rule them out and say that the pacient has "depression" and just prescribe them all the typical random pills that get prescribed in that case.

Because there's no way to tell the difference.

You may want to educate yourself so you get the basics right.


Also ever heard about diagnosis by exclusion? If we would start to only treat diseases after a positive biunique test (which is not possible btw), we would all be dead by now.

The "random pill" you get when you have a depression (excluding thyroid issues and SAD) are for the symptoms, not the depression.
 

betrayal

Banned
What are you trying to say here?

If you can't construct a coherent argument, then just droping random links is not going to help.

Seriously, i don't have the time to explain every word to you.

You said depression is not a disease but a set of symptoms which is just stupid in so many ways. ICD means "International Classification of Diseases". In short, ICD codes are used to classify diseases. Also following your "logic" every disease is just a symptom. Ask your doctor if you need further advice and if you have the time to learn something you didn't know before start here: https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/F01-F99

Enjoy your newly earned wisdom.
 

RealGassy

Banned
Seriously, i don't have the time to explain every word to you.

You said depression is not a disease but a set of symptoms which is just stupid in so many ways. ICD means "International Classification of Diseases". In short, ICD codes are used to classify diseases. Also following your "logic" every disease is just a symptom. Ask your doctor if you need further advice and if you have the time to learn something you didn't know before start here: https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/F01-F99

Enjoy your newly earned wisdom.
There's quite a distinct difference, because for most diseases and conditions there is some sort of measurement(s) to verify it.
And if there isn't, the symptoms don't fully overlap with pretty much everything else.

So many conditions and chronic illneses has general malaise, fatigue, energy loss, diminished ability to think or concentrate, diminshed interest and "depressed mood" as symptoms.
There isn't any defining, differentiating symptoms to "depression" to give it any distinguishing substance.

So, yes, the only way to arrive at "depression" as blanket-term diagnosis, is by excluding (by bloodtests, stool, xrays, etc) hundreds of other known conditions that have "depression" as a symptom. This generally speaking isn't done or is done very rarely AFAIK.

Linking DSM or ICD doesn't address the core of the argument in any way. Just makes it look like you're trying very hard to look smart.
 
Last edited:

Kev Kev

Gold Member
fuck it, just more reason to party and celebrate everyday i got left.

honestly though im at the point where im really skeptical of polls, survey studies or whatever that pit one gen against another. just reeks of clickbait.
 

Singular7

Member
Millenials are largely nihilists subscribed to the monkey people religion.

This is the core problem resulting in the other sub-causes of their early-death trajectory, discussed in the thread (in my estimation).
 
Last edited:

betrayal

Banned
Linking DSM or ICD doesn't address the core of the argument in any way. Just makes it look like you're trying very hard to look smart.

Literally every doctor and psychologist on this planet sees depression for what it is...a disease (by definition). Yet, here on NeoGAF, keyboard warriors don't agree with it while at the same time not being able to even provide a single proof to back up what they're saying.
 
Egh. Nutritional deficiencies have physical effects on your brain and body. Eventually you wear down mentally from the escalating effects.

But it has to be a pretty powerful effect.

It's not something you get from eating McDonald's 4 times a week then eating reasonably healthy the other days because you start to feel physically different.

If you start getting depressed it is because of your coping mechanisms.

Maybe gut bacteria has some limited impact on your hormones, but it would be unnoticeable.
 
Last edited:

RealGassy

Banned
Literally every doctor and psychologist on this planet sees depression for what it is...a disease (by definition). Yet, here on NeoGAF, keyboard warriors don't agree with it while at the same time not being able to even provide a single proof to back up what they're saying.
Potato level brain right here, instead of adressing the core substance of the argument (which you obviously can't do), deflect by doubling down on semantics and terminology.
 

betrayal

Banned
Potato level brain right here, instead of adressing the core substance of the argument (which you obviously can't do), deflect by doubling down on semantics and terminology.

There is absolutely no "core substance" present in your argument. Even I, a guy with a potato level brain, can see that and this tells you who you are.
Like previously stated, you're lacking knowledge (your fault) and experience (not your fault). For me it looks like our buddies Dunning and Kruger are secretly involved here and if they are not willingly leave you alone I'm better off nourishing my potato.
 
Last edited:

-Arcadia-

Banned
Something I always wonder, is how long can you argue about a subject, without absolutely everybody losing interest? It’s why I make my points, and if the argument stops being productive, I move on.

That way, the reader can decide who was right.

Do you guys think anybody here is still listening, or cares? Moreover, that they’re going to read through pages of bickering? : P Spend time with your loved ones. Do the things you enjoy.

There’s going to be an end someday, and you’re going to wonder why you spent four days of precious time, yelling at someone about gut bacteria. : P
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom