Papa
Banned
What happened to you then
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
American millennials' mental and physical health is on the decline — and they're on track to die faster than Gen X
What happened to you then
brap
Banned
he watched too many sissy hypno videos
TylersProphecy4.0
Banned
They taught me people like you are full of shit. They taught me to fight for what was right, not what was easy.
You're not gonna get the answers you expect out of me, ever, because you think you have it all figured out and you dont.
Papa
Banned
Christ you are such a pussy
Plague Doctor
Member
I am literally shaking* from this news.
*Literally shaking my head.
*Literally shaking my head.
Last edited:
TylersProphecy4.0
Banned
How about I draw a line down the center of your forehead and make it look like a pussy?
Hey man, we got some news you can't believe...
Last edited:
betrayal
Banned
No, viewed scientifically there are no "clear" links that food causes mental health issues. There are only vague leads that the food you eat may have an impact on your mental health, when you have anxiety disorders or depressions. The problem is you just don't understand what you read. Were not talking about feeling dizzy, sick or weak. We're talking about mental health, which has nothing to do with things like that. And just to be very clear. I'm not saying that food doesn't have an impact on mental health, i'm saying that food is not the reason for the decline of mental health.
Anyway, the post i've referrenced was not made by Tyler (which doesn't make it any more true what he said). Someone wrote "...gut health is extremely important and improper gut flora leads to all kinds of mental health problems", which is the bullshit i've called out.
You may want to educate yourself before propagating nonsense based on an non-existent knowledge, i.e. start with something easy like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_depression. Educate yourself about what people eat in these countries (e.g. processed food vs non-processed) and enjoy the feeling of gaining true knowledge not based on ten minutes of reading some studies without any context. Just stop being such a nonsensical keyboard warrior.
It is mentioned in the study...you have linked. You may want to read what you refer to as your source,
Last edited:
TylersProphecy4.0
Banned
For the record, I'm saying food effects ACTUAL health, not mental health.
Not that it might not, that's just not what I have been saying, though I can definitely see someone's diet effecting their mental state to some degree.
Not that it might not, that's just not what I have been saying, though I can definitely see someone's diet effecting their mental state to some degree.
TylersProphecy4.0
Banned
Me an' Matt been Joshin' for like two days now. Hes not horrible, and not altogether wrong, just very reductive and likes to generalize like a mother fucker.Than that i can agree on. Of course food effects your health and to some extent even your mental health. But it doesn't cause mental health issues for healthy people.
Let's fight ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤Papa ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ together.
Edit: That said, let's get him!!
Edit2: tomorrow! Got dat sleep!!
Last edited:
Papa
Banned
Then why the fuck are you going at me about it? Tyler was the one who blamed the decline in mental health primarily on food. I said it was a factor.
Your arguments are all over the place and you’re obviously just deflecting and projecting to avoid admitting you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about. You say that gut health can affect physical health, and physical health can affect mental health, but gut health doesn’t affect mental health. ???
You also keep switching from talking about general mental health to mental breakdowns when it’s convenient to you. The study that mentioned probiotics did not say that it would prevent mental breakdowns. Mental health is not a binary thing, you fucking idiot.
Go and read Giulia Enders’ book Gut. This was my introduction to the topic. Yes, it’s a relatively young science, and the links between gut health and mental health are not as well established as other more mature sciences, but they are far from tenuous as you are implying.
Papa
Banned
95% of serotonin is produced in the gut
www.sciencedirect.com
Serotonin in the gut: Blessing or a curse
Serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine or 5-HT) once most extensively studied as a neurotransmitter of the central nervous system, is seen to be predominantly…
www.sciencedirect.com
95% of serotonin is produced in the gut
Serotonin in the gut: Blessing or a curse
Serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine or 5-HT) once most extensively studied as a neurotransmitter of the central nervous system, is seen to be predominantly…
Fascinating, didn't know that. I'll be checking out that book.
RainblowDash
Gold Member
More millennials should join a gym, even if it’s just Planet Fitness.
It’s good for stress relief.
It’s good for stress relief.
ROMhack
Member
Gyms are heaving these days. I'd probably implode if I didn't go to the gym after a shitty day at work.
Last edited:
betrayal
Banned
My first post:
betrayal said:
Your direct reply:
matt404au said:
I've read the book many years ago. It's a good starting point. You may want to considers reading it again or look for even more simple books. Maybe less text (10 words / page), but with way more pictures. Maybe there are some kid's book that are convenient for a 3-year old intellect.
Last edited:
Papa
Banned
It's a short read but enlightening nonetheless. Enders is so young and enthusiastic about the topic that it's really quite infectious. The book is full of cute little drawings by her sister to support the somewhat heavy (though very well presented) text. She has a short TED Talk if you want to give it a listen before committing to the book:
betrayal
Banned
95% of serotonin is produced in the gut
Serotonin in the gut: Blessing or a curse
Serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine or 5-HT) once most extensively studied as a neurotransmitter of the central nervous system, is seen to be predominantly…
But you should be careful with your conclusions.
What has serotonin to do with depression?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Serotonin has many functions and it can also have many downsides. The link between the serotonin produced in the gut and the serotonin produced in the brain is not clear and it is well-known that serotinin produced in the gut is used for other things compared to serotonin produced in our brains. There probably is a link and maybe some kind of exchange, but more research has to be done.
Regarding the topic, you can have very high levels of serotonin and be depressed and you can have low level and be very happy about your life. Why? Because 99,999% of depressions are not caused by your food. Just because serotonine is produced in the gut it doesn't mean a bad gut flora causes depression.
Last edited:
Papa
Banned
Here you go, pictures and ELI3 as requested:
Watch from 7:18.
Good luck, young space cadet.
betrayal
Banned
Again, because you don't understand what i'm saying. I'm saying gut bacteria does not cause depression. I'm not saying that gut bacteria can't have any negative impact on your mental health if you already have a depression.
Regarding the video i don't know if you want to troll me. She knew a person with bad breath who committed suicide and then she checked some studies that said 90% of the nerve cells in the gut are connected and "talk" to the brain. While this is totally true it also shows that you have no clue whatsoever about this topic. Start reading some books about digestion to learn that the brain has A LOT to do with it. It already starts the moment you think about food. The strong connection between our guts and our brains is necessary. Otherwise we would be all dead now.
Giulia Enders said nothing (N O T H I N G) about facts or objective findings. She just made assumptions. And again, because you have problems with simple understanding. I never said gut bacteria (as well as ~10.000.000+ other factors in our life) have no effect on our mental health. It's all about the claim, which you have supported, that gut bacteria, or our gut in general, can cause depressions or anxiety disorders, which just is not true.
You can admit your defeat and the gap in your knowledge. Sometimes even a space cadet can outclass a smartass.
Last edited:
The question of "What causes depression" is a similar to the question of "what causes pain?"
Just like there's hundreds of different answers in regards to what can cause pains in certain areas,
there are hundreds of different conditions which can cause the symptom of depression.
Now, surely symptoms of depression can be caused by deficient nutrition or messed up gut biome,
but it also could be a hundred of other things.
The problem with this is - that unless you are rich - no doctor is going to bother running tens if not
hundreds of different diagnostics to figure out exactly what it is.
Instead he will prescribe you bunch of painkillers... uh, i mean "medication".
Last edited:
Papa
Banned
Sometimes, but not this time. See ya later, Major Tom.
betrayal
Banned
You don't need to be rich to see where most depressions are coming from. Just visit mental hospitals or talk to psychologists. I agree that there are hundreds of different conditions that can cause depressions, but gut bacteria are none of it.
But i totally agree that a deficient nutrition can cause symptoms of depressions, but this has nothing to do with gut bacteria, but with the fact, that malnutrition has physiological effects on your health and your phyiological condition on the other hand has an effect on your psychological condition.
Last edited:
How can you be so bloody sure?
What if you nuke your body with a course or two of very strong antibiotics?
And thus - i'm going on a limb here - limit your body's ability to digest and obsorb some kinds of nutrition?
Or what if your diet has too much sugar and other garbage that promotes an overgrowth of certain kind of "bad" bacteria?
Depression is a symptom for hundreds of different conditions, and by far most doctors won't treat it as a symptom.
And since that is the case, they are not going to bother running tens if not hundreds of different diagnostics to find out the cause.
So you're going to have to shell out a significant amount of cash to get a good doctor and run all those tests.
Will your doctor run diagnostics to determine the health of your gut biome?
I mean there's probably like tens of different diagnostics just for that.
Last edited:
ROMhack
Member
This gut thing is getting weird...
I think you guys were better off debating the breakdown of the nuclear family (no mom to cook good food) as well as the related pressures on working people to afford to live/rent/breathe rather than discussing the effects of mountain dew.
I think you guys were better off debating the breakdown of the nuclear family (no mom to cook good food) as well as the related pressures on working people to afford to live/rent/breathe rather than discussing the effects of mountain dew.
Last edited:
Papa
Banned
Put your feelings away and use your brain. Or go back to posting obscure words, I don’t care.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
I really struggle to understand how it can both be acknowledged that gut bacteria can affect mental health, but also the idea depression can be a symptom is just denied? You ever get a sliver or stub your toe? You ever crush your thumb while working on a car (this comes to mind because I just did)?
Small things can have an outsized affect on your mood. They can spiral into a lot of different things if you're not resilient enough to overcome them. I have a sister who has never really learned how to overcome these things...I think we both suffer from the same dark thoughts and moods that make getting out of bed some days and getting through life a chore, at times. The difference between us seems to be that I don't accept that I really have a choice in the matter and I get on with it. From the time I was in college I've accepted I'm responsible for myself and can't rely on mom and dad anymore, so I'm used to getting out there and doing it. She's not. That would seem to point directly at environmental factors then, except for the fact that I think it can be both. I've learned to will myself into self-reliance and even taking care of others, but I can believe that someone who hasn't could be totally hamstrung by what seems like a small factor: gut biome being off.
Small things can have an outsized affect on your mood. They can spiral into a lot of different things if you're not resilient enough to overcome them. I have a sister who has never really learned how to overcome these things...I think we both suffer from the same dark thoughts and moods that make getting out of bed some days and getting through life a chore, at times. The difference between us seems to be that I don't accept that I really have a choice in the matter and I get on with it. From the time I was in college I've accepted I'm responsible for myself and can't rely on mom and dad anymore, so I'm used to getting out there and doing it. She's not. That would seem to point directly at environmental factors then, except for the fact that I think it can be both. I've learned to will myself into self-reliance and even taking care of others, but I can believe that someone who hasn't could be totally hamstrung by what seems like a small factor: gut biome being off.
Last edited:
brap
Banned
Quit being mean.
Papa
Banned
When people stop prioritising their hearts over their heads, I promise I will.
To clarify my post to ROM above, I don’t like it when people feel uncomfortable around new or controversial ideas and attempt to shut them down. I think it’s weak and a little bit pathetic and I would prefer they consider what is being said and perhaps do their own research instead of just complaining and creating a chilling effect. Don’t do that and I won’t be mean.
Last edited:
Papa
Banned
I will just clarify that I referred to the gut in general. Gut bacteria are obviously a big part of it, but the gut wall lining is also very important.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
That fits right in with my overall point, I think. Any multitude of things can throw us off, and dismissing any of them outright would seem to be silly.
ROMhack
Member
Don't worry, I honestly found the posts between yourself and
betrayal
to be erudite and interesting.I suppose I personally find it hard to accept the debate when it's reduced entirely to biological term as we're talking about an issue fundamentally linked with feelings/emotion. I know mental health is a psychological conundrum that stems from brain activity but it feels like there's plenty of complex external stimuli, coupled with negative personal associations, that makes thought patterns spiral into depression. If it's gut biome then so be it but I doubt it until I see stronger evidence.
Last edited:
betrayal
Banned
Nuking your body with two very strong antibiotics can lead to a limited absorption of nutrition. This will lead to physiological symptoms, but you won't experience symptoms triggered because of a depression.
We have millions of people eating too much sugar and other garbage. There is no connection between sugar and depressions.
Check the link i've provided a few posts earlier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_depression). The eating habbits are vastly different in countries and countries who eat less sugar don't suffer less from depression and vice versa.
A good doctor will always treat a depression as a symptom, because it is always just a symptom of deeper problem. There is not a single reported case for a depression caused OR healed which is associated with the food people are eating. On the other hand and according to today's science there's probably a 99% chance, that you will find a trigger or grief in people's past, that led to a depression and by working and focusing on that, people can be healed.
It is widely accepted, that depressions occur, when people a) use a behavior or coping mechanism, that were helpful in the past (to cope with "unusual" events) but doesn't fit anymore in people's current life. b) people don't learn to respect other boundaries or build and enforce their own boundaries or c) just had fucked up segments during their life that prevented them to build an healthy self-image / ego. Of course this simplified and there are many more reasons, but ~80%+ of the reasons for depressions fall in one of those three categories and most depressions can be healed by working on these things (preferably with a psychologist).
Last edited:
ROMhack
Member
This is an excellent way of describing what I meant in the post directly above. Thanks for putting it in much better terms than I possibly could
Papa
Banned
Don't worry, I honestly found the posts between yourself and
I suppose I personally find it hard to accept the debate when it's reduced entirely to biological terms. We're talking about an issue fundamentally linked with feelings and emotion.
Where do feelings and emotions come from?
betrayal
Banned
Then maybe stop prioritisng not reading and therefore understanding people's posts before replying to them.
The idea that the gut influences your mental-health is neither new nor controversial. I mean, you're apparently a good example for bad gut bacteria having an effect on mental health, but saying gut bacteria can be the origin for a depression is horse shit and not backed up by a single study in this universe. Maybe the Democrats have something like that in their desk drawer to finally impeach Trump, but here, in the real world, we're still waiting for it.
Last edited:
ROMhack
Member
One's internal thought patterns coupled with external stimuli. A duality if you will, much like the twin suns of gemini (castor and pollux).
I get what you're saying, of course.
Last edited:
Papa
Banned
Last edited:
I'm sorry, what?
How else would you frame it?
In terms of "aligning the chakras"?
I'm sure that people that live in the northern latitudes who suffer from so called "seasonal affective disorder", experience griefs of their past in one particular part of year when it's not sunny.
Makes a lot of sense.
Or people with thyroid issues, I'm sure they display symptoms of depression because of their chakras.
Every time I get a cold I also display symptoms of depression (as per DSM), must be because of malaligned chakras or something.
That "Epidemilogy of depression" link doesn't really tell much. Or anything that I could draw any conclusions from.
Last edited:
Thaedolus
Gold Member
Will you donate your poop to me?
ROMhack
Member
The rest of that post, tbh. The way people experience psychological trauma is not reducible to their gut.
If otherwise healthy people suffer depression, it's due to a complex relationship between external stimuli, internal associations (aka coping mechanisms), and their overall physical health. Why would therapy concentrate on perception of the self and relationship with others so much otherwise?
Last edited:
KorbinDallas
Member
Isn't the sign of a good leader that those which come after you are better than you were? If that's the case, what does that say about boomers? It's not like a 6yo developed the rules which provided trophies to everyone. Nor were millennials the generation which taught in public schools that relativity in every aspect of life is acceptable.
The venomous position from boomers is rich as they frequently:
The venomous position from boomers is rich as they frequently:
- Want all kinds of public services provided, but still want low taxes
- Raised kids with a perverted sense of entitlement, but complain when said kids keep mentality into adulthood
- Are looking for the younger generation to pay for their fair share, but won't bloody retire from higher wage jobs
- Outsourced careers to overseas, then wHy HaVeN't YoU CaReErEd YeT ?!?
- Hold the highest amount of home ownership with high home values, then complain millennials haven't moved out of the basement
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
Even though I am a big fan of improving gut health via food and so forth, it is only one factor. Our diet is central to our health and I think we could do a lot to prevent and repair these issues by getting diet in line, but it's not a silver bullet.
Mental health is complicated. If the decline was due to one factor, this topic wouldn't exist and the problem would already be solved.
I tend to think of mental health like a threshold. Why else would we call it "pushed over the edge"? Each thing in your life either pushes you closer to your personal "mental breakdown" threshold or moves you further away. Diet full of sugar? Your threshold is gonna be lower. Raised by an single parent? Definitely pushing closer to that threshold. Lack of religious/cultural underpinnings? Lower threshold. Environment where you are shielded from genuine challenge and excitement? And so forth.
Well, the spiritual state of society and playing fast and loose with the family structure certainly has an impact.
Mental health is complicated. If the decline was due to one factor, this topic wouldn't exist and the problem would already be solved.
I tend to think of mental health like a threshold. Why else would we call it "pushed over the edge"? Each thing in your life either pushes you closer to your personal "mental breakdown" threshold or moves you further away. Diet full of sugar? Your threshold is gonna be lower. Raised by an single parent? Definitely pushing closer to that threshold. Lack of religious/cultural underpinnings? Lower threshold. Environment where you are shielded from genuine challenge and excitement? And so forth.
Last edited:
betrayal
Banned
Symptoms caused by malnutrition, not depression.
While you're right about SAD and thyroid issues have nothing to do with gut bacteria, which all i'm saying is about, this doesn't add anything valueable to this discussion. SAD and thyroid issues are caused by an imbalance of hormones. Fix the clearly measurable imbalance and people are healed. So i kindly assume you're not starting to tell people SAD and thyroid issues have something to do with your gut bacteria.
Furthermore, like you probably already know, SAD and thyroid issues are no cases for a psychologist and almost all cases can be healed by medication. For gut bacteria causing depression on the other hand there doesn't even exist a single known case. I don't even know of single blog post or something like that by a private person who changed their eating behavior and food choices and therefore got rid of their depression. Even CNN.com, the HuffingtonPost or PerezHilton.com don't have articles about it. So at the end this just further proves my point, that gut bacteria probably don't cause depression.
Last edited:
Papa
Banned
Why are you cunts incapable of looking at this with any nuance? Who said it’s “reducible to their gut”? When I say it’s a factor, it does not mean any and all mental health issue is directly a result of poor gut health. It simply means exactly what I said: it’s a factor. I swear to god, you two are capable of thinking only in terms of 0 and 1.
Bandit Messiah
Member
On one hand, I hate to see an entire generation die quicker do to an apparent cultural shift that leads to poor health choices.
On the other hand, less democratic voters.
Eh, it's a win overall.
On the other hand, less democratic voters.
Eh, it's a win overall.
Papa
Banned
I agree with this but find it strange that you’re supporting space cadet’s post above. It’s completely contradictory to what you (and I) are saying — that it’s a factor that can have a compounding effect when combined with other factors. He explicitly says that poor gut health manifests physiologically, and poor mental health can be a result of physiological factors, but then confidently asserts that gut health can’t have anything to do with mental health. He’s all over the place and is throwing out ridiculous quantifications like 99% this and 80% that while misinterpreting and handwaving actual research. Ridiculous.
Similar threads
- Poll