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[thismeinteil]

So many armchair corporate business analysts and executives here. Perhaps some of you should write to Microsoft immediately and maybe they will give you a job because clearly you know more than them.

Series S at $299 is an incredible value between price and performance, with next generation console tech. This is a console with mass market approach to quick adoption and it will likely be very successful in the long run.

The Series X at $499 is still a good value for what you’re getting with everything inside, and it’s compact and clean design is well executed and should do very well.

I keep saying this and I will say it again. Video game consoles are for casuals and some hardcore gamers looking for ease of access and playability. If you’re looking for power and specs galore, stick to PC gaming.

With how poorly managed the Xbox division has been since the late 360 era, I would bet that they do.

@ OP

It would still have to be $299 to make any impact. Otherwise, they would just get the more powerful, exclusive spewing PS5 DE for the same price. They might get away with $349. And it would allow them to keep their 1440p promise.

As for XSX, with how multiplats are going, 16 Tflops may be needed to get that 20% advantage over the PS5 Xbox fans were talking about. But they'd have to price it at $549.

 

[Rusty Shackelford]

This gen is less than 2 weeks old and we have a weaker system with complete dev tools vs a stronger system with half-baked developer tools. Clearly Sony was in development with the PS5 before MS with the Series consoles.

 

[Valonquar]

Some games wouldn't have hurt either.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

This gen is less than 2 weeks old and we have a weaker system with complete dev tools vs a stronger system with half-baked developer tools. Clearly Sony was in development with the PS5 before MS with the Series consoles.

The only thing that matters is results. Power on paper is just paper.
And let me remind you that this is not a surprise to Microsoft; they avoided showing Series X running muliplat games for as long as they can, because they knew they couldn't show the power advantage. But how far back did they know? Probably all the way back to when they started marketing Series X as the most powerful console. Basically it is all lies, all the way down.

 

[eNT1TY]

I'm willing to bet the target audience for the S don't care what horizontal resolution their game is displaying and would rather spend $300 than $400.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I'm willing to bet the target audience for the S don't care what horizontal resolution their game is displaying and would rather spend $300 than $400.

The target audience for the S would rather spend $0 and just keep playing on their XboxOne/PS4.
By the time there are games that current gen can't run, Series S would have had a price drop. Paying $300 for playing future games later is silly.

 

[Blond]

I think, who knows what options were on the table. MS is not fully in control of this, as we all learned last gen with shitty Jaguar.

I don't think anyone would buy a $600 Xbox versus a $500 PS5 though.

599 US dollars gets memed on to this day and the YouTube video still gets commented on. Sony showed everyone and I mean everyone that general consumers won’t fuck with 600 dollars.

Then again, kids make 20 bucks a hour at Chick-fil-A to fry chicken in some states so the job market definitely changed from when 5 bucks was the minimum wage.

 

[Iced Arcade]

When the next Skyrim/Starfield launches exclusively... Those little white boxes and gamepass subscription will fly off the shelf.


The Series S isn't made for us gaming enthusiast.

 

[dcx4610]

They would have sold even less units with their current line up.

Microsoft has to fix their 1st party games issue if they ever want to come close to beating Sony again. It sounds like they don't care though and just want to make Xbox a brand and push GamePass everywhere.

 

[recursive]

Nah. I don’t see it.
X most powerful ever at $500 is a very nice place. S at $300 and game pass on both is incredible value.

Xbox is in a great place to start this generation. Don’t change what isn’t broken.

Mods doing console wars. Sweet.

 

[COVID-45]

A 36 TF Series X would have made more sense. What's MS thinking!?

 

[BattleScar]

How much would these cost? Cause it would be fucking expensive.

 

[Pedro Motta]

LOL @ thread.

 

[kikkis]

Isnt both series x and PS5 Tflops just optimized for amount of bandwidth the system has?

 

[Astral Dog]

No not really

 

[Golgo 13]

Mods doing console wars. Sweet.

Moderators are allowed to have opinions about things, aren’t they? And how is that post in any way a “system wars” post? Genuinely curious here.

 

[recursive]

Moderators are allowed to have opinions about things, aren’t they? And how is that post in any way a “system wars” post? Genuinely curious here.

Don't care a out your curiosity. Mods handing out warnings and bans for console waring shouldn't be participating in it.

 

[Hustler]

I think it would’ve been better if they launched with some exclusive games.... but that’s just me. Power be damned, if you don’t have a reason to buy the system, people will wait.

 

[Golgo 13]

Maybe it's the tools, maybe it isn't, but what's clear now is that we are not going to have a 1440p vs native 4k difference between the PS5 and XSX.

Series S is doing even worse. Slightly above 1080p at half the framereate in Valhalla, 900p in Watch Dogs Legion and can only do 120 fps at 576p in Dirt 5. Despite the more powerful CPU and a RDNA 2.0 GPU, clearly 4 tflops wasn't enough.

I think MS should've released an 8 tflops Series S GPU to compete with Sony, and an OP $600 console for the hardcore that can really do native 4k 60 fps. The 60 CU at 16 tflops RX6800 is that card. Only 8 more CUs than the XSX and only 250 mhz higher clocks. Costs with infinity cache would've been far higher, but they dont need the full 128mb of cache on consoles. You can easily get better cooling, and a bigger APU for an extra $100.

I know I would've picked up a 16 tflops gpu with even a smaller infinity cache in a heart beat. People are willing to pay almost $2,000 for consoles and GPUs, i think the $600 console would've really been attractive to the hardcore gamers.

What does gaf think? Too expensive? I am sure the Series X will go to sell millions. I dont see the console flopping in anyway, and it might even make a comeback like the 360 did back in the day. However, as something MS marketed as a power leader, I find it to be lacking whereas a more expensive console would've offered the kind of performance they were promising.

I think the question is, was that more powerful tech ready for testing 18 months ago? Because from what I remember Panello talking about through various threads (mostly on Era) is that it takes years of testing and pre-production to approve a console for release. And 18 months ago 12TF was pretty damn great.

Another thing to consider would be, as you mentioned, the optimizations aren’t really “there” yet since that last year leading up to release would probably be tuning things up, and since everyone’s been working from home I’m assuming things haven’t been handled as well in the transition.

I do think the XSX will catch up in the next year or so as developers get a handle on things, and maybe even step a little ahead in multi-platform content.

 

[chimpsteaks]

Amongst other issues with this, I don't think you can just upgrade from a 12 TFLOP to a 16 TFLOP GPU for only an additional $100 manufacturing cost.

 

[Alphagear]

Personally I think Microsoft approach in having 2 different spec models is flawed.

The weaker console will always gimp the stronger.

We are seeing the results already.

The XSX alone would have been enough.

Sonys approach is better with the only difference being a disk drive.

 

[anothertech]

LMFAO these game comparisons really got to the Xbox guys huh.

Unfortunately it looks to be a trend for the forseeable future guys.

But Scorpio 2 could be the game changer. The tides could still turn in 2023...

 

[FStubbs]

They would have sold even less units with their current line up.

Microsoft has to fix their 1st party games issue if they ever want to come close to beating Sony again. It sounds like they don't care though and just want to make Xbox a brand and push GamePass everywhere.

Microsoft has never beaten Sony.

 

[AJUMP23]

I don’t think the market would bare the higher prices. And I think the MS price drove the Sony price. People don’t want to pay more than $500 for a console. You saw that in the ps3 era that you can price yourself out of the market.

 

[TJC]

Not all about Teraflops, don't people learn anything?

 

[dcx4610]

Microsoft has never beaten Sony.

They outsold the PS3 with the 360 until the very end of the generation and was widely considered to be the better console with better performing games. Everyone had a 360 back then. It was the "default" console.

 

[The Fartist]

They outsold the PS3 with the 360 until the very end of the generation and was widely considered to be the better console with better performing games. Everyone had a 360 back then. It was the "default" console.

So Microsoft has never beaten Sony, then.

 

[Neo_game]

IMO the idea of low end console is a bad idea and the whole scalability like PC is not the right approach on consoles. People also have unrealistic expectations from these consoles. 500$ is fine. They needed to make sure it was ready at launch and have some new games.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Enough with the bottom barrel cheapo consoles.
I'll pay for the Microsoft Series bells and whistles edition.
The Series that also boots Windows so I can finally boot my PC out of my setup.

 

[THE DUCK]

First of all, who gives a crap what resolution series s is running anything at at 120hz.
It shouldn't even be trying to do this.

Second, the vast majority of people buying it don't care, and they certainly won't care next year when its $249 or less at Christmas.
They are a kid, a in a bedroom with an older TV, or they play 3 games a year.

It plays games. They don't care what the people who are graphics whores say on gaf.

 

[Hydroxy]

You would need two jobs to afford the $600 Series X.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

First of all, who gives a crap what resolution series s is running anything at at 120hz.
It shouldn't even be trying to do this.

Second, the vast majority of people buying it don't care, and they certainly won't care next year when its $249 or less at Christmas.
They are a kid, a in a bedroom with an older TV, or they play 3 games a year.

It plays games. They don't care what the people who are graphics whores say on gaf.

You are describing someone who only play multiplat games that, as far as we know, will still be available on current gen machines next year. If they didn't care about graphics and their current console already run the games they want to buy, why would they buy Series S now?

Remember, right now Series S is at its literally most expensive state. And even after a discount it is still money that didn't need to be spend. If you don't care about the best graphics then you don't need to upgrade at all.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

Xbox will die or destroy on the gamepass hill. Hardware doesnt matter. Sony is like your favorite restaurant, Microsoft is trying to be everyones AYCE buffet. Microsoft should have bought EA or Activision instead. Thats the perfect market for all you can play.

 

[THE DUCK]

You are describing someone who only play multiplat games that, as far as we know, will still be available on current gen machines next year. If they didn't care about graphics and their current console already run the games they want to buy, why would they buy Series S now?

Remember, right now Series S is at its literally most expensive state. And even after a discount it is still money that didn't need to be spend. If you don't care about the best graphics then you don't need to upgrade at all.

Maybe they want something better than an xbox one? Its still a very nice step up, and loads much faster. Or maybe they have a ps4 and want to try out some xbox games but don't want to spend $500. Or maybe they want one for the bedroom. They are buying it now, its sold out everywhere. There are its of reasons for it to do well.

Also keep in mind they could sell thier xbox one for half the price of an s, inexpensive upgrade.

 

[Insolent]

There is no games
Its not about price or power

 

[ahmyleg]

There's nothing stopping anyone from making 4k/60 games on the PS5 or XSeX. It's just devs favoring asset quality and effects over fps/resolution like they usually do. Wipeout was 4k/60 on PS4pro...

 

[Aceofspades]

I laugh everytime someone says that Series S is incredible "value" at $299. Its so overpriced for what it offers compared to the rest. Just look at the spec sheet and you will understand. It gives you the least value per dollar for everything inside it.

If Sony is selling PS5DE at $399 then Series S should have been $120 or less to be able to match PS5 on value.

 

[Kerotan]

Microsoft should have just made 1 console and if they wanted a cheaper one do a digital edition.

The S is a shit show that will do nothing but lower the lowest common denominator games have to hit in a few years when they go next gen only.

And with Pro consoles in probably 4 years it will be even more stupid having 3 different xboxs and 4 if they do a digital one. Sony got them all flustered and making panic moves.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Microsoft should have just made 1 console and if they wanted a cheaper one do a digital edition.

The S is a shit show that will do nothing but lower the lowest common denominator games have to hit in a few years when they go next gen only.

And with Pro consoles in probably 4 years it will be even more stupid having 3 different xboxs and 4 if they do a digital one. Sony got them all flustered and making panic moves.

To be fair, this is what parts of game forums like Gaf had always asked for.

1. Wanting an expensive and powerful game console, from 600 to 800 dollars.
2. Claim that there should be two SKUs, leaving one cheap and shitty SKU for the masses to buy to justify the expensive console not being able grow an ecosystem on its own.
3. Completely forget that no one actually want to BUY the damn weaker console SKU, that it was from the very beginning the justification to have an overpriced console.

 

[SupremeHoodie]

A 30 teraflop 99.99 dollar Series X would have been the best.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

You solve nothing increasing the TFs and keeping that awful RAM configuration. A 500€ SX with 20GB of fast RAM would probably do the trick.

This is exactly what I regret the most about the XSX. There was a rumor that I have read in the next gen PS5 & XSX thread around the release of the road to PS5 video, from Moore Law is Dead I think, that said that Microsoft was planning to put 20GB of ram with a 1GB/s SSD. But when they learned what Sony was planning they decided to change plans and that gave us the actual XSX. It would have been interesting to see what a XSX with 20 GB ram would do.

I was thinking something along these lines just a short time ago when I was reading the Digital Foundry Dirt 5 performance thread. I completely agree with you; I would've bought a $600 (well the equivalent in Australia dollars) Series X with 6800 performance and an 8TF Series S would've been so much more future proofed and would actually be able to run at 1440p in a lot more games. A $600 Series X would've also given Microsoft a clear demarcation point against the PS5, because it would run multiplats better and it would be a significant difference between it and the PS5, not just a minor or non-existent difference.

For me the PS5 digital edition at 400$ and the Playstation collection is already a very good proposition, and I already have the majority of the games in it. For someone who do not have played them it get even better. For me the XSX is less interesting than the PS5 because it will not have the games I have been accustomed to play on Sony consoles (Uncharted, Ratchet&clank...). The series S low price and the promises and potential of gamepass could make me buy one in the future . The problem in my opinion with a 400/600 duo for Microsoft is that even those consoles find their places at those price point in a few years a PS5 slim at 300 would kill them fast. And the next Nintendo console would not help them at all.


The thing is, if by a 400/600 duo Zuzu and SlimySnake you are saying that you would prefer Microsoft to make one console equal/very close to PS5 and one clearly superior to the PS5 I would agree. It would make Microsoft consoles more interesting to me and maybe others . But a 600$ console is a hard sell. And a 400$ Series is not "cheap" enough to be the impulse buy that the Wii and Switch have been.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Holy shit is Series S Dirt 5 really 576p in 120 mode? That's some Xbox 360 Call Of Duty grade vaseline.

I know. I can't believe it either. I was actually considering buying this piece of shit.

I'd have returned or sold my Series S had I bought it and found out it goes down to 576p. I have a fucking 65inch 4K UHDTV. Imagine what 575p must look like on such a TV.

And it's only going to get worse for Series S. It can't even hold 1080p in high framerate modes.
I doubt there are people out there playing on HDTVs otherwise 720p makes sense.

2nd wave of games will bring this box down to its knees. Im expecting alot more sub HD games.

 

[Ar¢tos]

A 16tf console wouldn't cost 599, it would cost 699 minimum and it would be even bigger than the ps5 with current tech.
Just think of the cooling necessary and the yields for an APU that big!

 

[Hawking Radiation]

I too said it months ago that series s WILL be sub 1080p unless series x is forced to be native 4k

No wonder series S wont sell that good. Still widely available, at least here.

Not having disc drive is also big minus, many want to have physical AND digital games, not just full digital

People in here was saying it's sold out and a sales success lol.
I'm in NZ and I can go into a shop today and buy one. They are readily available here too.

But I'm patient. I don't want 576p near my TV. Fucking hell, 576p.

FIVR HUNDRED AND SEVENTY SIX PEE!!!! In 2020!!!
On a fucking next gen console. JESUS WEPT!!

 

[Companion Cube]

I think, who knows what options were on the table. MS is not fully in control of this, as we all learned last gen with shitty Jaguar.

I don't think anyone would buy a $600 Xbox versus a $500 PS5 though.

Sony waited for the Xbox price to match it so they'd probably both be $600.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I know. I can't believe it either. I was actually considering buying this piece of shit.

I'd have returned or sold my Series S had I bought it and found out it goes down to 576p. I have a fucking 65inch 4K UHDTV. Imagine what 575p must look like on such a TV.

And it's only going to get worse for Series S. It can't even hold 1080p in high framerate modes.
I doubt there are people out there playing on HDTVs otherwise 720p makes sense.

2nd wave of games will bring this box down to its knees. Im expecting alot more sub HD games.

And it isn't like nobody warned you.
I don't even own a PS4, and I still knew Series S was a bad idea. But Xbox customers were hoping that they could sell a weak console just because Nintendo does it.

Nintendo, of course, succeed because of their high quality software output. Just selling a weaker console is not going to get you customers.

However, if it was that easy for Microsoft to have a consistent software output, we wouldn't be talking about Series S at all today. The fact is Microsoft's Hail Mary is that selling a weak console could somehow be a substitute for making and releasing good games. And gaming history said no.

Sony waited for the Xbox price to match it so they'd probably both be $600.

Sony's nightmare isn't Microsoft, Sony's nightmare is repeating PS3's launch. So $600 was never on the cards even if it kills them.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

I know. I can't believe it either. I was actually considering buying this piece of shit.

I'd have returned or sold my Series S had I bought it and found out it goes down to 576p. I have a fucking 65inch 4K UHDTV. Imagine what 575p must look like on such a TV.

And it's only going to get worse for Series S. It can't even hold 1080p in high framerate modes.
I doubt there are people out there playing on HDTVs otherwise 720p makes sense.

2nd wave of games will bring this box down to its knees. Im expecting alot more sub HD games.

Come on, this is just a blatant overreaction. It runs most games north of 1080p just fine. The fact one single mode in Dirt 5 can, occasionally, drop that low is irrelevant. It drops to 900p on PS5 and performance is still awful, better break out the 720p monitors right?

Series S isn't for you though, I agree, but I don't think it ever was. It's sold out in the major markets and in general it will sell well, regardless.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

And it isn't like nobody warned you.
I don't even own a PS4, and I still knew Series S was a bad idea. But Xbox customers were hoping that they could sell a weak console just because Nintendo does it.

Nintendo, of course, succeed because of their high quality software output. Just selling a weaker console is not going to get you customers.

However, if it was that easy for Microsoft to have a consistent software output, we wouldn't be talking about Series S at all today. The fact is Microsoft's Hail Mary is that selling a weak console could somehow be a substitute for making and releasing good games. And gaming history said no.


Sony's nightmare isn't Microsoft, Sony's nightmare is repeating PS3's launch. So $600 was never on the cards even if it kills them.

Nailed it. THIS.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Come on, this is just a blatant overreaction. It runs most games north of 1080p just fine, that one single mode in Dirt 5 can, occasionally, drop that low is irrelevant. It drops to 900p on PS5 and performance is still awful, better break out the 720p monitors right?

Series S isn't for you though, I agree, but I don't think it ever was. It's sold out in the major markets and in general it will sell well, regardless.

Series S is for people who don't care enough about graphics to ever upgrade for that alone, and play multiplat games that will still run on PS4 or Xbox One in the immediate future.
As in, Series S is for nobody.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

Series S is for people who don't care enough about graphics to ever upgrade for that alone, and play multiplat games that will still run on PS4 or Xbox One in the immediate future.
As in, Series S is for nobody.

Series S is the cheapest "next gen" console and will appeal for that reason alone. I got one for the kids room, I know a PS5 owner got one as a Game Pass (and Xbox library) box, people who travel a lot appreciate the small form factor, others with limited space or budget feel the same.

Just because you don't want one doesn't mean others are the same. Trying to equate it to a Nintendo console shows how misinformed you actually are.