panama chief
Member
Straight from the mouth of the guy from Insomniac on stage today.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
An Inside Look at Marvels Spider-Man
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
Straight from the mouth of the guy from Insomniac on stage today.
WordsintheWater
Member
On stage at the D23 expo today
Yeah, sure. For some, it could be that, for others, it could be what I said. I do hope that I didn't come across as somebody expecting this to be the final product already, though, because I'm fully aware that this is all still a work-in-progress and thus will still be improved upon. I know it'll still be improved, but I'm simply criticizing the few shortcomings their animations currently have, out of worry that if nobody speaks up about it, Insomniac might just look past it and not actually improve it any further.
So call it nitpicking if you want, but this is a pretty damn valid criticism to me:
I don't know if this is what you were referring to when saying unrealistic expectations, but if so, I will have to strongly disagree. We can clearly see Insomniac's amazing animations throughout the different footage we've seen, and I've seen other games do better with similar animations of going from a crouch to a stand like that, so I'm certain Insomniac can do it much better.
killatopak
Gold Member
AKA The Witcher 3 situation. Devs made Geralt react realistically to the world. People just went fuck that and went alternative motion.
ScaryShark
Banned
The stuff they said about Peter sounds very promising and is the most exciting thing they've said for my ears so far. I hope they work him in to the gameplay in a significant way.
gamerMan
Member
Oh my gosh this new footage is amazing. I love how Insomniac is listening closely to fans and want to do Spider-Man proud. Most of all, I love that there are no QTEs at all in this video. Hopefully, these sections will be reworked and not a part of the final game's code. This game looks ridiculously good.
falconbox on reddit combined the two shots into one.
How is he gaining speed when he's already passed the top of the building, and then shoots his web. It looks like his web is pushing him away from the building.
Looks cool as shit this game, but that little tiny thing is annoying me.
flaxknuckles
Member
"I hate the suit"
Said no one ever.
Looks like a butcherization of the classic suit. Just fugly
Looks like he hit the web-zip button right when the cursor was aimed at the top of the building. It looks weird probably only when you hit it when running up a building.
Great now show some of ACU's combat animations, it feels and looks like shit:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYSfYqqGl8
So giving this game as an example is ridiculous.
I agree that some of the transitions could be better in Spidey but for me it feels like nitpicking considering how perfect the animations themselves are, it feels and looks so damn smooth, they managed to portray Spidey's movement and combat perfectly here.
More_Badass
Member
He shoots a web behind him and it arrests his upward momentum and starts swinging him downward hence the acceleration
I feel like it's the same thing he does when swinging around corners of this building but without the gravity momentum of the above example.
Also, It's relevant to remember that spiderweb is extremely flexible and could work kinda like a rubber band which would explain the boost in speed in your gif. I think it looks plausible based on the physics shown and how I would expect human made spiderweb to react xD
WordsintheWater
Member
Oh God, I forgot how bad combat was in that game, from animations to mechanics, yeesh.
'
But it's behind him, as you point out, it shouldn't give him acceleration forward.
I feel like it's the same thing he does when swinging around corners of this building but without the gravity momentum of the above example.
Also, It's relevant to remember that spiderweb is extremely flexible and could work kinda like a rubber band which would explain the boost in speed in your gif. I think it looks plausible based on the physics shown and how I would expect human made spiderweb to react xD
This works better, as it isn't exactly like the roof segment, the roof segment looks like he webs behind him, as in he already has forward momentum and past the point where he can get more forward momentum based on where his web hits.
... ok I'm getting very nitpicky here I feel. Nevermind
King of Custard
Member
Yea not sure why his animators eye isn't seeing those bad animations.
Also look at this combat video from Arkham Knight
https://youtu.be/MEklJnD1gXA
You can see a lot of snap transitions and a very slip slide Batman.
This is not a bad thing! The first example he used is to keep the flow of combat going (similar to Batman). The second is to keep the feel of momentum going when running across the city. They have reasons for existing.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Disagree.I'm so mad about how almost everything about the second film is bad because the first one had genuinely good ideas. Speaking of Homecoming Spiderman, I was actually watching a compilation of all his scenes in Civil War, (better be an option for that costume btw), another good way to showcase him reacting to a landing
over
^ the above is already halfway there truth be told
Because you're literally not the first person ITT to come in with that sort of shitposting and the implication is quite clear.
Secondary motion looks great, but not when it interferes with gameplay. Figure the reason why Spider-Man has a short animation after landing is so control is given to the player as quickly as possible.
It's ok for me if it looks a little shit, as long as the control isn't sacrificed.
"I hate the suit"
Said no one ever.
I hate it, the white spider looks too gaudy.
The swinging looks really good here. He seems to properly pick up speed during the first swing.falconbox on reddit combined the two shots into one.
Equanimity
Member
I find your issue with animation blend-in quite odd, especially when you compare them to movies and ACU. You can go to YouTube and find wonky/cancelled and downright poor animations in Unity within a minute. I think it's rather disingenuous for one to compare the animation blend-in between Arno and Spider-Man, for an obvious reason no less.
Do you do this with every tiple A game you have a slight interest in?
And was that a direct reaction to what people requested on social media and forums?
If you believe all of that then I would suggest you email or tweet IG with your critique. There's a high chance Spidey devs might not even read your comments if GAF is the only place you'll post them.
I disagree. I posted a few gifs with smooth animation blend-in, which could only mean one thing - Spider-Man PS4 is a work in progress. Do you get where I'm coming from?
We're taking about Spider-Man here. Don't compare his animations to how a normal person would move and react.
There will be QTEs in the final game. I'm all for it.
dat homecoming diversity coming through.
Possibly the first hijabi NPC?
Maybe in a Spider-Man game. But I've seen hijabis elsewhere.
Looks like he uses a web on the side of the building to sling him across, instead of just going straight up, after building up some speed running up it.
I agree with you completely, I feel like the things he is complaining about are pretty common in games of such nature, it's needed to keep the flow of the combat and traversal, and it happens in AK as well when they want to keep the flow of the combat so they "break" the animation when needed.
I don't want to call him by names like some of the rest around here do but it does feel like he is trying to nitpick what seems like a game with a mostly flawless presentation and animations, instead of acknowledging how amazing everything looks and "feels" he rather find very insignificant and understandable "flaws". And to fucking bring as an example ACU, a game that is full with horrible animations, that feels like shit to play in general, a game that basically represents the complete opposite of what is considered smooth and polished, is really ridiculous.
Smelliest Spider-Man confirmed?
Just imagine all the contributing factors to him being stinky. Then he puts his clothes back on and goes about his Peter Parker business.
Maybe he has deodorant web fluid.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. I do tweet at devs when it's something that concerns me enough.
Err, yes? I never disagreed on the fact that the game is still a work in progress. Majority of the animation we've seen of the game all look really smooth and fantastic. I just found the transition in this one in particular to be not so smooth. Or maybe the right description would be that it's too fast? Anyway, it's not to the point that it would really bother me, but it's there and I know about it, so I'd like to see it be done better.
The transition to the last hit in this one is a little too fast for me too--it's almost as if he doesn't jump at all and was just suddenly in the air--although I suppose that's more of nitpicking because I understand the need to make it fast due to combat. But then... it's already slow-mo'd, so it wouldn't really hurt to show Spidey jumping a bit. Ehh.
Okay, that's fair, I did forget to consider that when comparing. The transition from crouch to stand here just looks unnaturally fast and stiff to me. While yes, Spider-Man has superhuman (easier to say than "proportionate...") agility, I always imagined it to still look natural despite that. If that makes any sense... To me, it looks as if it needed a keyframe between the crouching and standing positions, but it wasn't there, so Spidey unnaturally zips back to a standing position.
So, yeah, maybe "not smooth" weren't the right words for me to use...? Or maybe it's right.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Geralt doesn't react realistically to the world of the witcher 3 at all nor does that game have a lot of animation priority, ESPECIALLY compared to the one that came before it.... The only games i've played where animation priority was an explicit constant issue were Rockstar games.
Again this sort of secondary motion is so commonplace that games have already found a way to include details like this without sacrificing playability. Hence why the lack of it by comparison looks stiff and unnatural.
Equanimity
Member
Yeah that's good.
I think I see your issue with that particular move, I believe the actual culprit lies within the fast camera pan; maybe IG should slow it down ever so slightly to show Spidey jumping in style.
Maybe it's like that for the sake of gameplay but I guess If it's an issue for some, IG should take another look at it.
Spring-Loaded
Member
1) Spider-Man having superpowers is not carte blanche for him to have weird animations having superpowers is not carte blanche for him to have just any kind of weird animation. Most of what has been shown in this new game looks incredible, but that makes the transitions stand out even more. Since Spiderman is one my favorite superheroes, I definitely want the power fantasy of controlling him to be as consistently good as possible. That includes cool three point landings that transition well into him standing up, or having that slight tug present when changing directions while swinging and launching a new web, or swinging into the side of the building before running up the side of it.
It was a similar situation with the Batman Arkham games and when those games or at their best in regard to animation, they were even more awesome for me (particularly in Arkham City where I found the transitions between individual animations to be even better and more consistent than in Arkham Knight during fights with less teleportation). When they had to resort to Batman simply teleporting from enemy to enemy, that lessened the experience somewhat for me. I actually find Arkham City had less jarring transitions in fight animation on average than what's been shown of Spider-Man so far. There's always the need to "cheat" in order to make the game fully playable, but if Insomniac can make those transitions any better without sacrificing playability, then that would be great.
Little stuff like forward momentum and general sense of space or things that kept me from falling enjoying superhero power fantasies like inFamous 2 or Prototype, even though they got some things right.
2) Whether Crossing Eden does this for every AAA game doesn't really matter if he's actually discussing the fucking game this thread is about, rather than trying to dictate what everyone else should be able to talk about in regard to the game footage that they have shown.
There's a lot of insinuation that that poster is writing about the game disingenuously. But we're having that stupid conversation, I want to add that there's a general sense of defensiveness there's a lot of insinuation that that poster is writing about the game disingenuously. But we're having that stupid conversation, I want to add that there's a general vibe of unwarranted defensiveness and attempts to shut down any prevalent criticism in posts responding to said criticism of a console exclusive. Do you do this song and dance for every PS4 exclusive?
The only current gen console I have is a PS4 and I can see what crossing Eden is talking about. So maybe, just maybe, it's not just some fanboy bullshit. And maybe we can have a discussion about the limited details about the game that we have, rather than some crusade to determine whether someone's arguing disingenuously when everything they're pointing out is at least based on something more than a feeling.
Yup, seems like it. I took a closer look and Spidey does jump, but the speed of the camera almost made me not see it.
If what the player does here is to web-zip at the edge of the building, I wonder if it's possible to simply web-zip upwards for more verticality, rather than using it as an anchor for forward horizontal movement. I hope the "skill-based" nature of the web-swinging will allow for both at any time, but either ways, it's incredbily exciting to think that we'll be able to pull off such cool-looking moves as Spidey, be it web-swinging or parkour.falconbox on reddit combined the two shots into one.
Jesus. You spotted that? Damn, man. Nice find! If MJ really does end up being Peter's love interest here, I'd be very happy. They're soul-mates, and while we do have the Renew Your Vows book right now, it's been far too long since we last saw Peter and MJ together in a more current timeline. And I sure as hell hope she already knows Peter's secret.looks like MJ will be Peter's love interest.
Equanimity
Member
I thought you lot were discussing animation blending, where did the wierd animations part come from? And err, yes it does to what I've bolded, for any super hero character. I find it rather disingenuous that some of you just brush past all the gifs that show smooth animation blend-in and hold tight to the ones that you believe might showcase a problem.
W.I.P
You can feel a lot of things but that does not make it true. There's barely any teleportation in the Spider-Man combat presentation. I was playing Arkham City for the 4th time a few days ago, and your comparison doesn't make any sense. You're comparing apples to oranges.
This isn't a technical analysis thread but yeah go ahead and pick apart these animations right after you've come off from doing the same thing in the Days Gone thread. Talking about Eden here.
I'm not insinuating, I think Eden is clearly being disingenuous in his comparison. I might be wrong but that's what I believe at the moment.
Don't waste my time with your stupid conversation then
Who's stopping you two from conducting a discussion? You're in space where other people can and will interject with their opinions.
Yeah, IG should slow down that camera pan.
God I really hope this will be the Arkham for spiderman with every note worthy character making an appearance.looks like MJ will be Peter's love interest.
A mission where you have to juggle between going on a date with MJ and stopping some crimes would be great.
Frostman
Member
I don't know whether I just don't critique games the way some on this forum do, or if this thread is just incredible nitpicking.
The game is probably 12 months from release. I don't see the need to pick on 1 tiny part of animation when so much of it is incredible, 12 months out.
The game is probably 12 months from release. I don't see the need to pick on 1 tiny part of animation when so much of it is incredible, 12 months out.
onemanasylum
Banned
I agree with you there, Geralt was anything but realistic.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I really gotta thank you for this post.
This also isn't a hype thread. So if I notice issues in both games am I just supposed to keep my opinions to myself or? It would be one thing if I was being incredibly vague, but I have very clearly pointed out where I find issue and provided a ton of visuals examples as well as counter examples as to how it could be one better. So ti imply that i'm disingenuous because I also critiqued the animation of another game that happened to be a ps4 exclusive is ridiculous, as it implies that I wouldn't do so otherwise. When it's like the first thing I notice whenever I watch a video of a game in action.
You ARE wrong.
That was more because CDPR heard the complaints about animation priority in Witcher 2. Geralt is incredibly responsive during combat. And has a good mix between feeling weighty and moving around the world in a timely fashion.
Equanimity
Member
Of course not, this is why I asked you earlier if you did the same for most games that you have a slight interest in, but you clearly brushed my question aside.
I posted counter examples of good animation blend-in, you ignored those too.
You're assuming quite a bit here, I didn't call you disingenuous for your critique on Days Gone and Spider-Man. Take another look at what I've said so far.
Well gee, that changes everything.
privitsan02
Member
To be fair, all Crossing Eden had to do is not compare the animations here to Unity, which derailed the topic as there's almost always an Ubisoft game in his comparisons, often unjustified. That game, while also having promising animations and brilliant graphics were bogged down with horrible glitches, bugs and a lack of polish. A lot of those great animations there were easily cancelled or ruined due to games lack of consistency. You're constantly fighting the controls and it's very apparent in small, closed off areas.
I don't think his critiques with regards to Days Gone were unfair. The guns do lack a kick and it's clearly unfinished, more so than Spider-Man here and I feel were more valid in that thread. The situations are mutually exclusive. It's okay to critique certain things but it doesn't help when it creates a pattern for some people.
Best wishes.
More_Badass
Member
It's this'
But it's behind him, as you point out, it shouldn't give him acceleration forward.
This works better, as it isn't exactly like the roof segment, the roof segment looks like he webs behind him, as in he already has forward momentum and past the point where he can get more forward momentum based on where his web hits.
... ok I'm getting very nitpicky here I feel. Nevermind
His movement looks like it's straight out of the fucking movies. Insomniac is doing an incredible job.
Spring-Loaded
Member
I thought you lot were discussing animation blending, where did the wierd animations part come from? And err, yes it does to what I've bolded, for any super hero character. I find it rather disingenuous that some of you just brush past all the gifs that show smooth animation blend-in and hold tight to the ones that you believe might showcase a problem.
W.I.P
You can feel a lot of things but that does not make it true. There's barely any teleportation in the Spider-Man combat presentation. I was playing Arkham City for the 4th time a few days ago, and your comparison doesn't make any sense. You're comparing apples to oranges.
This isn't a technical analysis thread but yeah go ahead and pick apart these animations right after you've come off from doing the same thing in the Days Gone thread. Talking about Eden here.
I'm not insinuating, I think Eden is clearly being disingenuous in his comparison. I might be wrong but that's what I believe at the moment.
Don't waste my time with your stupid conversation then
Who's stopping you two from conducting a discussion? You're in space where other people can and will interject with their opinions.
Yeah, IG should slow down that camera pan.
1) Spider-Man standing up after landing looks weird, it's a transition between the landing animation and his default standing pose, and all that falls under "weird animation." He's still human, which means no matter how spectacular his moves are, they're still subject to looking uncanny or odd.
In that portion of my post you quoted, I say that most of what has been shown looks incredibly good. Not saying how amazing it looks in every sentence doesn't equal "brushing past examples of good animation/animation blending." I'm referring to the gifs that show a really quick transitions between individual attacks and takedowns, and him swinging into a building before instantly running up the side.
You needing people to constantly reinforce that the game looks good smacks of fanboyism and insecurity.
2) a work in progress? No one's saying the footage is final. no one's refuting when the game is set to release. May as well shout down any and all discussion if that's a problem.
"Uh, what's the point is saying the webslinging looks great if it's coming out a year from now?"
3) people have been talking up the combat and stealth/predator gameplay as looking Arkham inspiredcomparison between the two is warranted. Arkham City counter animations, particularly those of Catwoman, blended together exceptionally well even during rapid series of counters. The "teleportation" issue is circumvented somewhat with Spider-Man canonically being able to flip across large distances quickly and having web zip line abilities, and is more jarring in the Arkham series than it is here, but in these fight gifs, I'm noticing an attack animation complete itself, then what looks like a jump cut to another attack animation against a single enemy. It could be that it feels better to lay than it looks, but it's still happening. The equivalent in the Arkham series (animation blending between distinct, basic attacks) has generally looked smoother. Not necessarily better overall, but aspects of what those games achieved are what I hope Insomniac can do with Spider-Man.
4) it's a thread about the new Spider-Man game. Discussing the animation is as valid as people nitpicking over the webslinging, or the voice acting or any other aspect of the game. That all is more valid than some "surely someone criticizing the game must have an agenda" idiocy. Can you not tell the difference between discussing a game and discussing another poster?
5) You suck at being able to tell is someone's arguing in good faith then. Even if Crossing Eden is pulling of some elaborate troll, everything (aside from responding to personal accusations) has been about the game, or comparisons to other games. Whether those are valid or appropriate are a relevant matter of opinionwhether a given poster who's posting stuff about he game itself is doing so with ulterior motives is an irrelevant matter of opinion.
6) The aforementioned "Sony hater witch hunt" is what's stupid, and you're willingly perpetuating it. Your opinion about that is both moronic and irrelevant to this game. Why shitpost and derail a thread about a game if you purport to care about it?
7) Some opinions are asinine and off-topic. I really try to avoid engaging moronic diatribes in threads, but your stupidity needs calling out.
Consider instead that no one is stopping you from ignoring on-topic posts or discussion if they don't interest you. No one is forcing you to show your ass about how paranoid you are when it comes to vg discussion.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Again like I said, these two games released within the same time frame. And since the retort from you in the last thread was that we shouldn't compare linear games as examples of good animation, I figured it'd be best to name the best of the open world genre.
I actually didn't see your post.
I wasn't being disingenuous with my comparisons., this is incredibly well done given the year it released. Batman also holds up well too. Both are like my go to examples of near perfect animation blending despite the fact that they still have the animation skips that occur based on an immediate reaction to player input.
Equanimity
Member
So from what I understand, Crossing Eden has an unjustified habit of comparing animation work between Ubisoft and other devs?
I competed agree.
And that is exactly why I agreed with some of the constructive criticism in the Days Gone Alternative Playthrough thread.
Spring-Loaded
Member
It does seem like the timing is slightly off like the web comes out too late, even if the concept holds water. Again, it seems like functionality is the priority.
Make a thread about him while you're at it.
Equanimity
Member
You're free to compare the two but I don't usually expect the same quality of animation work between an open world game and linear title.
Alright that's fine.
But ACU doesn't hold up well in comparison to Spider-Man, that's where I take issue with what you're suggesting.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
To be more specific
But due to the unnatural speed of the movement it looks a bit off. Seems they're very specifically emphasizing input.
It's 2017. There are open world games doing amazing things these things. The gap is WAYYY smaller than last gen
The animation blending certainly does. Then there's the little nuances like the swaying of the arms while jumping and such that's missing completely in the e3 demo and such. It's genuinely excellent.
WordsintheWater
Member
He said that they've been listening to us and then mentions they increased the swing speed since E3
I get the concept, just looks like the execution is a bit off.
Yes, exactly, timing is a bit off/late, so it looks like he's shooting behind himself.
And yes, functionality is key, so as I mentioned earlier, it's a very nitpicky "issue". I'll try to drop it/ignore it