Anyone else notice a pattern here? (Nier: Automata, GR 2, and Horizon: Zero Dawn)

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Neoleo2143

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really?

why are men shirtless in tropical setting?! god forbid someone has skin shown.
Actually there are some funny stories about how missionaries tried to get some Tribes in South America to wear Clothing. How they'd cut holes in their shirts to make it easier to breast feed or they'd alter the underwear to make it more comfortable for them to wear.

However, Aloy herself was seemingly raised in a rather conservative group (pretty significant detail because that's what leads her to want to explore the outside) that wore heavy clothing. I fail to see that would change even if she were to enter a jungle (unless she was specifically recommended to do so by the nearby village which would be a valid reason but I don't see that happening because it isn't encouraged by the mechanics). Otherwise, she would want to cover up in most spots to avoid insect bites. A midriff doesn't really offer her anything practical and she's a very practical character (barring some character development). It's a conflict and I don't think it matches her character.
 

Tohsaka

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Maybe you wanna try and provide an explanation for when an exposed midriff with your armor is sensible? I'm genuinely curious about what purpose you think an exposed midriff while wearing armor would serve and need a good laugh.
Have you never played an MMO? They often let you change the appearance of armor/weapons with better stats to look like cooler ones that are less powerful. People like wearing stuff that looks good to them, not everything needs to be realistic or sensible.
 

Pacotez

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What I'd really like to see is a game like Wild Arms 3 where the female protagonist is neither sexualized nor ridiculed on a constant basis by the people around her.

People talk a lot about Estelle from Trails in the Sky, but there's a LOT of (what feels like unintentional on the writers' part) sexism directed towards her from the male characters in the game and it's really disgusting and unpleasant.
Wait, what?
I haven't played the second game yet but I don't remember that happening on FC

Just because there's an excuse in-game it doesn't instantly make up for their shortcomings. The game's not out yet but so far from what I've seen I dont think Neir is a good example of positive female leads. Not when you have a character that covers her goddamn eyes but exposes her thighs, ass and wears stilettos when fighting monsters.


 

Crossing Eden

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Doesn't really have to do with what I pointed out here, but because you asked so nicely

Because it's a video game and people want to dress up in video games. Get out of here with your extreme need for """realism""""" and let people have some fun.

Have you ever heard of the term "fashion souls"? People dress up in armor with terrible stats just to look good. People run Souls games completely without armor because they can

That's all the justification it needs
It's almost like guerilla painstakingly made the default outfit fit the context with lots of reasonable explanations for each component.



Where does "and for this outfit Aloy decided it's be best not to cover her stomach" fit into the context?

Souls armor for the most part looks completely reasonable in context. And since we're using tired brainless excuses like "it's a video game." to defend yet another stupid alt for a female character it's time:


Some people here would have a lot of trouble in a character design class if "well because it's fantasy," or "because it's a videogame" is their anger to critique of a character design.

Have you never played an MMO? They often let you change the appearance of armor/weapons with better stats to look like cooler ones that are less powerful. People like wearing stuff that looks good to them, not everything needs to be realistic or sensible.
No I don't play MMOs, stupid outfits being part of the reason, and Horizon isn't an MMO.
 

Neoleo2143

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Have you never played an MMO? They often let you change the appearance of armor/weapons with better stats to look like cooler ones that are less powerful. People like wearing stuff that looks good to them, not everything needs to be realistic or sensible.
This isn't really an MMO so I don't think its a valid comparison, Aloy is a character created for the player not by the player.
 

YianGaruga

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It's almost like guerilla painstakingly made the default outfit fit the context with lots of reasonable explanations for each component.



Souls armor for the most part looks completely reasonable in context. And since we're using tired brainless excuses like "it's a video game." to defend yet another stupid alt for a female character it's time:
That bingo card is the dumbest shit ever and only used by people like you to shut down other opinions. Next you'll be calling me a GamerGater

Try harder

There needs to be zero "reasonable explanation" for optional costumes in any game ever. That's ridiculous.

"It's a videogame" is a perfectly reasonable explanation for a lot of things. Not everything of course, but dressing up in "unrealistic" costumes? Absolutely.

Say there was a "cameo" Killzone outfit in the game. Would you be so vehemently against that too? Or is it only when it's a slightly sexy outfit that shows some skin?
 
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I only just realized how much Aloy reminds me of Nariko from Heavenly Sword. Partially visual and in a large way the background I think. Now I wish a HS2 was coming too :(
 

RibMan

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GRavity RUSH 2 January
H: ZD February
Nier: A March

All of these games come out in 2017! And in consecutive months( Jan, Feb, March)!


...I'm joking. What I wanted to say is that I am liking how developers seem to be more comfortable with having female leads. It isn't like this hasn't happened before, but back to back like that? Coincidence? Most likely. But I think it is a testament to how times have changed, even if ever so slight.

I mean, they are all badass (from what I've seen so far) and incredibly unique in design. Oh, and it also helps that the gameplay looks great as well. For those of you who have played the demo for 2/3 of these games, I think you would agree that the gameplay IS good. Am I right? I am fully immersed whenever I do a playthrough of those demos.

I'm rambling a bit, but I just wanted to say how happy I am that these types of creative (and risky) games are coming out.
Good observation!

I think what's happened is that much like the NFL, the gaming market needs to expand and attract an audience that was -- for years and years -- being ignored and written off as "uninterested". Sony realized this over a decade ago, so seeing them continue to push games with female leads/female characters doesn't come as a surprise. I hope more companies will take more chances with their lead characters and cast of characters in general, because if you've been playing games for 20+ years like I have, you're probably not going to care about the sex of the main and supporting characters.
 

Pacotez

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Yeah, they just always make them sexy waifus.

Let's try and name Japanese female leads (playable) that aren't sexualized, shall we? How many are there really?

- Estelle Bright, Trails in the Sky.
- Yunica Tovah in Ys Origin. But she's a co-protagonist.
- Jeanne d'Arc in the game of the same name.
- Shanoa in Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia

Those are getting old, too. Most of these games are over a decade old. And most are relatively obscure/niche games too.

For AAA Japanese games, you have Resident Evil and FF13 with some famous female leads but of course they get skimpy outfits as alternate costumes because of course we gotta be able to ogle them.

Shanoa and 2B's clothing is pretty similar
 

Morrigan Stark

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The main character from Drakengard 3. The game is awful, don't bother.
I see. And I believe you.

and now you think that Nier came out after MGSV?
Huh? They didn't say that?



Dat tactical midriff!
Ugh. Sigh.

Please don't tell me that some midriff is now actually a problem.
Unless this is her "relax and hill out in warm weather" outfit, it's nonsensical. And it doesn't look to be that since it seems to have some actual armoured bits. Why would anyone wear armoured pieces but expose their most vulnerable target?

It doesn't even look cool, it just looks dumb as shit. It'd make more sense if she wore light clothing with some skin exposed, 'cause that could make sense for warm weather, or just as relaxing wear.

It is problematic because it serves no purpose other than"hurt durr I'm sexy look at my tummy".

Why IS that exposed?

Edit:whoops! Forgot my sarcasm tag. Sorry. Please forgive me.

/s
You don't need a sarcasm tag, because it's actually a valid argument.
 

Tohsaka

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This isn't really an MMO so I don't think its a valid comparison, Aloy is a character created for the player not by the player.
I wasn't really talking about MMOs specifically, since there are single player games like Xenoblade X that let you do the same thing. Point being is that not all armor in games (for both genders) needs to be designed to for functionality 100% of the time, people would rather look stylish.
 

Maebe

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Someone probably mentioned it before but there's also berseria, which is the first sole female lead in tales games I think.
 

Crossing Eden

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That bingo card is the dumbest shit ever and only used by people like you to shut down other opinions.

Try harder

There needs to be zero "reasonable explanation" for optional costumes in any game ever. That's ridiculous.
Laughing because it's absolutely not and you're salty that people are so tired of hearing the same tired excuses that they were able to make a valid bingo card of it. "It's just a video game" isn't even an opinion, it's a "please don't make me think too much about the context" type of argument that's conveniently only used to defend shit like exposed midriffs, boob windows, fetishistic footwear, voyeuristic cameras, and any number of things that just happen to only typically involve female protagonists with something that flies in the face of the logic of the game.
 

visiblemode

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The only pattern I've noticed is the bait and switch threads that keep popping up.

I agree OP. There's two things I like about this trend.

1) strong female leads. We need more of them.

2) releasing games outside of the Q4 holiday maelstrom.
This sums up my thoughts on this.

Love female leads.
 

YianGaruga

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Laughing because it's absolutely not and you're salty that people are so tired of hearing the same tired excuses that they were able to make a valid bingo card of it. "It's just a video game" isn't even an opinion, it's a "please don't make me think too much about the context" type of argument that's conveniently only used to defend shit like exposed midriffs, boob windows, fetishistic footwear, voyeuristic cameras, and any number of things that just happen to only typically involve female protagonists with something that flies in the face of the logic of the game.
No, I use "it's just a video game" to excuse just about anything, including everything you mentioned.

I explicitly don't WANT logic in all aspects of my games.
 

sensui-tomo

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That bingo card is the dumbest shit ever and only used by people like you to shut down other opinions.

Try harder

There needs to be zero "reasonable explanation" for optional costumes in any game ever. That's ridiculous.

"It's a videogame" is a perfectly reasonable explanation for a lot of things. Not everything of course, but dressing up in "unrealistic" cstumes? Absolutely.

Say there was a "cameo" Killzone outfit in the game. Would you be so vehemently against that too? Or is it only when it's a slightly sexy outfit that shows some skin?
Wouldn't the bingo card make the writing/excuse for shitty clothes invalid via " if it's written well" slot ? .... I hate this fucking bingo card, it's some 4chan esque shit meme.
 

Morrigan Stark

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That bingo card is the dumbest shit ever and only used by people like you to shut down other opinions.
It's actually a good summary of all the absurd arguments people use to defend sexist designs.

Try harder
no u

There needs to be zero "reasonable explanation" for optional costumes in any game ever. That's ridiculous.

"It's a videogame" is a perfectly reasonable explanation for a lot of things. Not everything of course, but dressing up in "unrealistic" cstumes? Absolutely.
No, I don't agree, particularly when it involves things like racist or sexist stereotypes.
 

Neoleo2143

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I wasn't really talking about MMOs specifically, since there are single player games like Xenoblade X that let you do the same thing. Point being is that not all armor in games (for both genders) needs to be designed to for functionality 100% of the time, people would rather look stylish.
I don't disagree with that entirely (though I want to have a glamour option like many MMOs). But Guerrilla seems to really take this setting seriously (barring the Robot Dinosaurs of course, some suspension of belief is needed) so consistency is really important. It feels out of place which is what bothers me.

I just wanna point out that the authenticity level of Horizon: Zero Dawn is on Fighting-Robo-Dinosaurs-stage
Yeah, I pointed this out in the thread I made, but that still doesn't change the fact that many fictional Stories are also "absurd". We buy into them until they give us reason to not do so. Robot Dinosaurs are part of suspension of belief.
 

Hexa

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Laughing because it's absolutely not and you're salty that people are so tired of hearing the same tired excuses that they were able to make a valid bingo card of it. "It's just a video game" isn't even an opinion, it's a "please don't make me think too much about the context" type of argument that's conveniently only used to defend shit like exposed midriffs, boob windows, fetishistic footwear, voyeuristic cameras, and any number of things that just happen to only typically involve female protagonists with something that flies in the face of the logic of the game.
Laughing because you apparently think fighting robodinos with a bow and arrow is more logical than midriff. How high are you right now? >_>

We're talking about an optional outfit with an exposed midriff here. Let's be real
Are we sure it's optional? I was thinking that outfit changes would be more something that just happen along the story according to the climate she's in.

And on a note related to the general topic: definitely picking up Nier, though maybe not at launch, after watching a lets play of the first one. Still need to play GR:R so not yet on GR2 but I definitely will. Horizon I think I'm going to wait on as well, and will probably get on sale at some point if it reviews well.
 

OmegaX0

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Since we're going into ridiculous talk of realism in Horizon here, how is it sensible for a human being to survive a hit from a 30 foot robot dinosaur regardless of their clothing?
 

Suzushiiro

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It's important to not view this stuff in completely binary terms- a game can have female characters who are well-written/empowered/not-just-objects/etc *and* have elements that are primarily there to pander to the male audience with sex, and neither of them should automatically cancel out the other. If anything I'd argue that completely dismissing a character as a sexual object who is solely meant to pander to men just because of an outfit they wear or a pose/animation they have is *way* more problematic than the shit that some of y'all are complaining about in this thread.

I mean I thought the whole "you will be ashamed of your words and deeds" bit over Quiet was dumb too don't get me wrong but "THIS ONE OUTFIT EXPOSES HER MIDRIFF, GAME RUINED" is also pretty fuckin' stupid.
 

Kenzodielocke

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I am with CE on that midriff, but this is also outfit so fsr that I find inconsistent in GG's marketing. But I am not going to say that the designers intent, male or female, was to make her sexy with that outfit.

These are just baseless accusations.
 

Shredderi

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The only problem I have with the midriff armor is that it looks ugly in general. Hopefully there are lots of different armor sets in the game.
 
Most of the bigger games and more famous niche games in early next year let you pick a female lead, even if they're not the only option.

Mandatory Female Lead:
- Horizon: Zero Dawn
- Gravity Rush 2
- Uncharted: The Lost Legacy

Ensemble Cast with Multiple Genders:
- Nier Automata
- Tales of Berseria
- Injustice 2
- Dawn of War 3

Selectable and/or Character Creator:
- Ghost Recon: Wildlands
- Mass Effect: Andromeda
- For Honor

There's not too much more dated yet or unveiled for Fall.

If you started counting up the male only ones (Resident Evil 7, Persona 5, Nioh), it'd actually be pretty similar in count to the female only ones, and some of those are technically assumptions that could be untrue.
 

Taruranto

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Maybe you wanna try and provide an explanation for when an exposed midriff with your armor is sensible? I'm genuinely curious about what purpose you think an exposed midriff while wearing armor would serve and need a good laugh.
Fantasy and videogames don't need to be realistic, they just need to be tonally consistent. You are not playing Mount & Blade: Warband, you are playing cavemen vs mecha dinosaurs. What the heck is immersion breaking about that outfit exactly in this kind of setting?
 

Shredderi

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It's important to not view this stuff in completely binary terms- a game can have female characters who are well-written/empowered/not-just-objects/etc *and* have elements that are primarily there to pander to the male audience with sex, and neither of them should automatically cancel out the other. If anything I'd argue that completely dismissing a character as a sexual object who is solely meant to pander to men just because of an outfit they wear or a pose/animation they have is *way* more problematic than the shit that some of y'all are complaining about in this thread.

I mean I thought the whole "you will be ashamed of your words and deeds" bit over Quiet was dumb too don't get me wrong but "THIS ONE OUTFIT EXPOSES HER MIDRIFF, GAME RUINED" is also pretty fuckin' stupid.
This is also a valid point. It is problematic to automatically and instantly decide that a female character is only fit for sexual objectification if she has a little bit of skin showing that is illogical in terms of realism. I don't think this is what has happened with Aloy here, but this has happened with some other characters in the past. I already expressed my distaste for Nier: A's character design and how I feel about blatantly oversexualized characters in general, but I do take context in consideration. Horizon seems very tribal and this sort of clothing doesn't honestly feel that out of place.
 

Hexa

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So you agree that all optional clothing is there because it looks nice ?
If it's entirely optional clothing purely for optics, then I would absolutely agree that that's the entire purpose. What else would even be the point of skins at all?

I'm not completely convinced it's just a skin though. Those usually aren't shown how this was. So maybe you can change armor with stats or maybe its just a story thing. may be other factors to consider.
 

Neoleo2143

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If it's entirely optional clothing purely for optics, then I would absolutely agree that that's the entire purpose. What else would even be the point of skins at all?

I'm not completely convinced it's just a skin though. Those usually aren't shown how this was. So maybe you can change armor with stats or maybe its just a story thing.
Armor has different stats and slots for customization.
 

Hektor

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I certainly don't choose optional clothing in games based on function and the designers thought process while designing them.
It would be kinda cool if a game like TR would have a feature where the clothing impacts lara's skills, like getting exhausted a lot faster when wearing heavy clothing in the desert and such.
 

YianGaruga

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What if the exposed midriff armor actually had terrible defensive stats in the game? Would that be okay?

Or should a player simply not be allowed choices like that?
 

RuinerPrime

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Actually there are some funny stories about how missionaries tried to get some Tribes in South America to wear Clothing. How they'd cut holes in their shirts to make it easier to breast feed or they'd alter the underwear to make it more comfortable for them to wear.

However, Aloy herself was seemingly raised in a rather conservative group (pretty significant detail because that's what leads her to want to explore the outside) that wore heavy clothing. I fail to see that would change even if she were to enter a jungle (unless she was specifically recommended to do so by the nearby village which would be a valid reason but I don't see that happening because it isn't encouraged by the mechanics). Otherwise, she would want to cover up in most spots to avoid insect bites. A midriff doesn't really offer her anything practical and she's a very practical character (barring some character development). It's a conflict and I don't think it matches her character.
That's perfectly reasonable, but sometimes I want my character to look cool not practical.
 

Hexa

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Armor has different stats and slots for customization.
Do you remember where you saw that? I thought that I'd been keeping up with this game pretty well but I must have missed it. Only remember changing weapons, traps, and ammunition.
 

Morrigan Stark

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Laughing because you apparently think fighting robodinos with a bow and arrow is more logical than midriff. How high are you right now? >_>
That'd be indeed dumb if it were a regular primitive bow and arrow, but they're clearly not...?

I mean I thought the whole "you will be ashamed of your words and deeds" bit over Quiet was dumb too don't get me wrong but "THIS ONE OUTFIT EXPOSES HER MIDRIFF, GAME RUINED" is also pretty fuckin' stupid.
No one said the game was ruined? I agree it'd be "pretty fuckin' stupid" if someone had actually said that, though.

That's perfectly reasonable, but sometimes I want my character to look cool not practical.
She's not "your character", she's Guerilla's character.
 

Neoleo2143

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Do you remember where you saw that? I thought that I'd been keeping up with this game pretty well but I must have missed it. Only remember changing weapons, traps, and ammunition.
I think it was one of the interviews up on Gameinformer's youtube channel. They don't want anything overly complex but each piece of gear can have different customization slots.

That's perfectly reasonable, but sometimes I want my character to look cool not practical.
Do you really think her clothing here is as cool as her original outfit? Her original outfit might be one of my favorite female character designs period. You can make things cool and practical.
 
Horizon is very aggressively targeted at the audience of teenage girls and young women who are getting into gaming en masse.

It's about a beautiful post apocalyptic setting. it has a very Young Adult Literature plotline. It's rated T. It stars a young woman going out and confronting the greater world around her as she faces rejection at home. The weaponry focuses around outdoorsy tools. Most of the enemies are robots so you wouldn't feel bad about mauling animals to death.

The entire thing is built in the same mold as The Hunger Games, The 100, or Divergent.

I honestly don't think her clothing is put in there to sex up the game, but to give it a modern trendy aesthetic while maintaining the setting of the game.

There are a lot of games aiming toward this these days, and you can see it just looking through the examples listed in the thread.

You actually saw this a lot in the PS1 and PS2 era in regards to games starring guys. We can even just look at something like GTA 3 featuring an up and coming gangster trying to get into the world of crime. Similarly, a lot of the other leading games were about animals with attitude (who were generally teenage dudes) and JRPG dudes trying to save the world while all these stupid adults did nothing.

Now that the male audience is a lot older, GTA V was an ensemble cast of a middle aged guy with a pretty old family going through a midlife crisis, a nearly middle aged guy who had rejected the expectations society placed on him, and a somewhat younger guy getting into crime, but at an older age than you might otherwise expect. You will probably notice the sea of "Dad Simulators" in gaming toward that end as well, and the thematics very much being things targeting older male audiences.

Dishonored 2 and The Last of Us might actually be some of the best examples of both, with Emily and Ellie fitting the younger emerging female audience, while Corvo and Joel target the aging male audience.

But yeah, in general, while it's true that a lot of midriff type outfits are targeted at getting more dudes to play a game, I don't think that's actually the objective of this product.
 

Kinyou

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And tbf. looks hot as hell
the climate
Also looks like her shoulders are actually relatively free aside from some straps. It does look like something that's meant to offer some protection while also not turning you into a walking sweat bag.

In a game about fighting robot dinosaurs i think thats enough justification.
 
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