Anyone else notice a pattern here? (Nier: Automata, GR 2, and Horizon: Zero Dawn)

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YianGaruga

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I think that's exactly the problem. The folks who are okay with this sort of thing are the kinds of people who turn off their brain to consume whatever media they consume. They don't care to put even the slightest inkling of thought into the way the character they're playing would think, and so they don't even question it when the choice of clothing is completely inconsistent with the characterization.

I think a lot of this boils down to a lack of reading. People just don't read enough books. They don't get into other people's heads, so the concept is foreign to them. It's a problem on a very fundamental level.

Which is why I've not really taken to arguing with folks over it lately. It's a more deep-seated issue than any argument I can produce will help them get over. All I can do is suggest that people read more books. Preferably books with protagonists that are unlike themselves.
I read books and play videogames for wholly different reasons. And yes I do both. And no not only manga and Halo novelizations.

What a load of nonsense. It's not a problem on any level that people want to enjoy videogames the way they do.

books and movies are experiences that are supposed to be had in one specific way. The characters act (and dress) in the way the author intended and ONLY in that way. That's why it's very important how exactly they are portrayed. Games are not, they personal interactive experiences. If I decide to let my character wear the most nonsensical outfit and run in circles for an hour because I enjoy it, that's my choice and it doesn't affect you or anyone else's experience. It doesn't mean "hurr durr I'm dumb and don't read books" That's the fundamental difference people can't seem to understand. The author's intent only only matters so much, unless you make a completely narrative driven on rails experience.

Games are made with varying degrees of freedom and player choice exactly so anyone can have the experience they want.

"It's a video game" really discredits the amount of artistry that much go in a game. Or any artistic product really.
It doesn't at all. See above. "It's a video game" doesn't mean "It's just a video game". It's not derogatory. It means it's a medium with its own rules, where a lot more should be allowed to be the choice of the player.
 

Laiza

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It's also not very productive to come into a thread to make generalization about people you are arguing (Read more books lol) with and resorting to ad hominem, but OK?

Also you quoted a post that was referring to me so
Are you new to the Internet? Conversations going on tangents that aren't necessarily related to the OP is a normal part of conversation here.

I am not saying folks need to read more to be flippant. It's actually an important aspect of building empathy that folks be exposed to the thoughts and mindsets of people unlike themselves. Roleplaying similarly helps in this regard (assuming the roleplaying involves characters that are not simply bland self-inserts). A lot of the defense I see of nonsensical outfit design is borne of a position that does not even attempt to get into the head of the characters so objectified, so it makes sense, at least to me, that these phenomena are tightly related to one another.

If you are capable of such thoughtfulness but simply deign to not exercise it, then fine, you do you. But you do understand where I am coming from when I say that developers half-assing their characterization like that is a major turn off, yes? I put that level of thought into the things I consume and the things I create, and so I think it is only fair that the creators of such content do the same. I just don't have the capacity to respect developers who put less effort than myself into their work - and that's not even considering the fact that they're being paid for it while I only do this as a hobby.

If your standards are that low, fine, whatever. But that's not a defense. Really, it's about as fruitful as trying to shout people down. Usually all you get is people shouting back louder.

I read books and play videogames for wholly different reasons. And yes I do both. And no not only manga and Halo novelizations.

What a load of nonsense. It's not a problem on any level that people want to enjoy videogames the way they do.

books and movies are experiences that are supposed to be had in one specific way. The characters act (and dress) in the way the author intended and ONLY in that way. That's why it's very important how exactly they are portrayed. Games are not, they personal interactive experiences. If I decide to let my character wear the most nonsensical outfit and run in circles for an hour because I enjoy it, that's my choice and it doesn't affect you or anyone else's experience. It doesn't mean "hurr durr I'm dumb and don't read books" That's the fundamental difference people can't seem to understand. The author's intent only only matters so much, unless you make a completely narrative driven on rails experience.

Games are made with varying degrees of freedom and player choice exactly so anyone can have the experience they want.
I'll note that we're usually not discussing games with player-created characters here. That's its own ball of wax. I'll also note that I don't actually have anything specifically against optional outfits that may happen to hew more on the sexy side. If the marketing doesn't center on it, then it's just... whatever. It's there, you can do what you like with it.

I am talking more about the sort of idiocy you see in games like Street Fighter V, where the outfit design actively gets in the way of proper characterization. It's impossible for me to take Cammy seriously as a character when she's somehow producing packages out of her bumhole and walking around with her buttcheeks exposed all the time with no reasoning for it. It's completely immersion-breaking. If the leotard were a joke outfit you could optionally dress her in, that'd be one thing. When it's what she's shown wearing all the time, it is entirely another.

Speaking of, Nier's 2B wearing a thong definitely falls under this category for me as well. It just doesn't make sense. The heels likewise, though that may just me having a hate-on for heels (seriously, fuck them, you'd have to pay me to wear them). If that were simply a player option that'd be one thing, but no - it's her default outfit, a designer consciously put her into it, and there's nothing about her characterization that makes it clear why she would dress like that. It's nonsense.

I'd prefer you not disingenuously defend this sort of tripe behind a "but player agency!" shield when we're talking about things that don't involve any player agency whatsoever. If something is not optional, then the only option we have to avoid it is to not play. That's not acceptable, and removes that particular excuse from the table. They can do better.
 
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I like 2Bs design quite a bit. the pale skin and white underclothes and black outfit all go together really nicely. quite a cool design. Aloy is nice, dig her thick hair. Gravity Rush also has a really cool colour scheme going on.
 

squall211

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Can't wrap my head around the people that get all bent out of shape over a female lead in a game. If the game is fun and engaging, I'll play as an androgynous frog for all I care.
 

YianGaruga

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I'll note that we're usually not discussing games with player-created characters here. That's its own ball of wax. I'll also note that I don't actually have anything specifically against optional outfits that may happen to hew more on the sexy side. If the marketing doesn't center on it, then it's just... whatever. It's there, you can do what you like with it.

I am talking more about the sort of idiocy you see in games like Street Fighter V, where the outfit design actively gets in the way of proper characterization. It's impossible for me to take Cammy seriously as a character when she's somehow producing packages out of her bumhole and walking around with her buttcheeks exposed all the time with no reasoning for it. It's completely immersion-breaking. If the leotard were a joke outfit you could optionally dress her in, that'd be one thing. When it's what she's shown wearing all the time, it is entirely another.

Speaking of, Nier's 2B wearing a thong definitely falls under this category for me as well. It just doesn't make sense. The heels likewise, though that may just me having a hate-on for heels (seriously, fuck them, you'd have to pay me to wear them). If that were simply a player option that'd be one thing, but no - it's her default outfit, a designer consciously put her into it, and there's nothing about her characterization that makes it clear why she would dress like that. It's nonsense.

I'd prefer you not disingenuously defend this sort of tripe behind a "but player agency!" shield when we're talking about things that don't involve any player agency whatsoever. If something is not optional, then the only option we have to avoid it is to not play. That's not acceptable, and removes that particular excuse from the table. They can do better.
RE: Nier, I'm not going to defend it. NieR is NieR, Yoko Taro is Yoko Taro. This is made for a specific audience and if that's not you, too bad. I can understand why this makes you not want to play it, but that's your choice. Not everything is for everyone.

If you took out over the top nonsense and sexy costumes from Street Fighter I would be considerably less interested. I don't want immersion or believable characters, I want craziness. So you either have a game that's for me or one that's for you and that' pretty much mutually exclusive. Neither of us is better than the other because of that and your standards aren't higher. We just like different stuff
 

Crossing Eden

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It doesn't at all. See above. "It's a video game" doesn't mean "It's just a video game". It's not derogatory. It means it's a medium with its own rules, where a lot more should be allowed to be the choice of the player.
It's absolutely disrespectful. You're basically saying "I don't expect artists to make sense and to put more thought into their work."

If someone told me "it doesn't have to make sense" i'd be incredibly insulted by the insinuation that I shouldn't put more thought into things.
 

Budi

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Not judging, but I feel that many people here are happy about these female leads so they get to play character they find sexy. Rather than women getting respectful representation in games. Kinda like choosing a female character in MMO for example to dress her in bikini armor.
 

Raptor

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I wouldnt buy games designed by 90% of posters in this thread.

Thankfully probably 85% of all of you will never design a videogame ever.

Jeez...
 

Bold One

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Ha, I'm not being critical. Just some lighthearted humor. I agree it's refreshing to see female protags in three major games like this. I'll actually remember these characters, whereas all of the 30-something brown-haired white guys blur together after a while.
All still white though

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

LotusHD

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Not judging, but I feel that mostly people here are happy about these female leads so they get to play character they find sexy. Rather than women getting respectful representation in games. Kinda like choosing a female character in MMO for example to dress her in bikini armor.
Seems like you are judging though lol, since you're generalizing and all
 

YianGaruga

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It's absolutely disrespectful. You're basically saying "I don't expect artists to make sense and to put more thought into their work."
If someone told me "it doesn't have to make sense" i'd be incredibly insulted by the insinuation that I shouldn't put more thought into things.
I'm glad not every video game developer thinks that way.

My favourite artists in the industry are people that make games that make very little sense.

Keita Takahashi, Yoko Taro, Hideo Kojima just to name a few

These people are incredible artists, even if their characters wear or do things that make no sense whatsoever.
 

Crossing Eden

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I'm glad not every video game developer thinks that way.
A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.
 

YianGaruga

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A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.
Guess why I don't play western games all that much.

I'm not asking for Ubisoft of EA to make differnet games though. They make games for people that are not me and that's great. You can't seem to accept that.

"just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.
now this is insulting and disrespectful
 

sjay1994

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It's absolutely disrespectful. You're basically saying "I don't expect artists to make sense and to put more thought into their work."

If someone told me "it doesn't have to make sense" i'd be incredibly insulted by the insinuation that I shouldn't put more thought into things.
But it kinda does make sense, and especially the "its a video game" part too.

The game is a RPG. They've said there are multiple armor sets. It is probably a light armor set, hence why the fabrics seem lighter than say that artwork of what might be a heavy armor set.

It could be meant to boost evasiveness. And real talk, the belly being exposed or not for a lighter armor isn't going to change wheter or not something pierces you. A strap of leather or fabric is still going to get pierced by a bullet or a spear.

Like, at the end of the day its just midriff. You can play a souls game practically naked, but no one says "that doesn't make sense" No armor = less load on character = more evasiveness.

Or it could be an armor set for a culture which has those designs. Exposed bellies in cultural dresses such as Sarees are a thing in the real world.

The optional armor is not exposing cleavage, just the belly and personally I don't see it as sexual or immersion breaking about it.
 

Budi

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Seems like you are judging though lol, since you're generalizing and all
I was about to edit the mostly, to many to be more accurate. But nah not judging, I don't mind attractive women either. But I'm not gonna applaud at every female lead just because.
I do think that female characters can be sexy and great characters at the same time. But some designs go way over the top.

Edit: I'd be interested to play all the games mentioned in the OP if they were on PC.
 

bryanee

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A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.
Nothing wrong with designing something to just be cool in appearance and to not make much sense if real world logic is applied to it. What a boring ass world that would be if you couldn't just make something that looks cool for the sake of looking cool
 

HStallion

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A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.
The rule of cool holds as true in the West as it does the East but what's cool in the West is obviously different than the East. Anything involving super heroes basically revolves around this idea with not an ounce of irony in doing so.
 

sjay1994

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The rule of cool holds as true in the West as it does the East but what's cool in the West is obviously different than the East. Anything involving super heroes basically revolves around this.
Except Robot Dinosaurs. I think thats universally cool.
 

Laiza

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RE: Nier, I'm not going to defend it. NieR is NieR, Yoko Taro is Yoko Taro. This is made for a specific audience and if that's not you, too bad. I can understand why this makes you not want to play it, but that's your choice. Not everything is for everyone.

If you took out over the top nonsense and sexy costumes from Street Fighter I would be considerably less interested. I don't want immersion or believable characters, I want craziness. So you either have a game that's for me or one that's for you and that' pretty much mutually exclusive. Neither of us is better than the other because of that and your standards aren't higher. We just like different stuff
You completely misunderstand me.

I'm still going to buy and play Nier: Automata. I didn't say that it is a dealbreaker for me. It's disappointing and immersion-breaking, certainly, and I expect better from them, but I don't believe in "voting with my wallet" as that sort of communication is akin to striking with a sledgehammer - useful in sending a message, perhaps, but the only message it sends is "I don't want to buy your game", and that's it. That's completely misleading when I actually like many other aspects of the game and there's only a few elements that bother me about it.

That being said, a game like Street Fighter would certainly hold my attention better if they weren't being so outrageous with their presentation of female characters. The thing is... they CAN have it both ways. They could have a mix of outrageously ridiculous characters and more down-to-Earth characters. In fact, they already do - Makoto being the prime example of a character who is about as self-serious as a female character will ever get in one of these games. If they could just have one or two characters just like her in the game, I would actually be playing it right now. But the ENTIRE FEMALE CAST (barring maybe Karin) is cheesecake and that completely turns me off.

There is a happy middle ground to be reached here, but Capcom has skewed far too much in the one direction... and I believe that's cost them customers. The thing is, with an ensemble cast like this, they really have no excuses. They could have had it all, but instead they chose to double-down on one demographic. I think that's a mistake.

I also have to admit that it's pretty hurtful how much folks like you love to downplay my desires. You know how many games out there actually cater to my demographic? You have any idea how slim pickings it is for folks like me out there? Your selfishness is certainly not doing you much credit. It'd be great if I had more options that didn't require me to compromise so heavily on my values, and it's not like I'd actually be encroaching on your options any. This isn't a zero-sum game, you know. They will pander to heterosexual male proclivities for as long as heterosexual male developers exist. That's never going away.

I would just like to see the scales tip a little closer towards a balance. Be a little less outrageously sexist in their presentation. Is that really too much to ask? Apparently, judging from some of the responses here, the answer is yes. That's just bloody depressing, man.
 

LotusHD

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A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.
Saying stuff like this, and all over a midriff... Sheesh. If anything, this thread has reminded me that there really are people on both sides of arguments like this that just... exhaust you.

I was about to edit the mostly, to many to be more accurate. But nah not judging, I don't mind attractive women either. But I'm not gonna applaud at every female lead just because.
I do think that female characters can be sexy and great characters at the same time. But some designs go way over the top.

Edit: I'd be interested to play all the games mentioned in the OP if they were on PC.

Neither am I. Anyways, I get it. 2B probably won't be some bastion of representation to many people, all things considered. But that's fine, at least she looks cool. Whereas I honestly think both Kat and Aloy are both great in terms of that though, but to each their own. I don't personally think any of them go over the top, especially compared to what I've seen in the past. But admittedly, I can admit that despite my liking of 2B's design, it's at the very least on quite the thin line. It's not a hill I'd die on though; Kat on the other hand (I'm indifferent to Aloy) is a lot easier to defend if I felt like it.

Anyhow, we've really went on a tangent from what I believe the OP was talking about. Here we got these three great games, and they just so happen to have female leads. A female lead doesn't always automatically warrant praise, but I'll do so anyways, partly on account of it being a happy coincidence that these are two games (I'll think about Horizon lol) that I'm buying Day 1.
 

phoenix296

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It's absolutely disrespectful. You're basically saying "I don't expect artists to make sense and to put more thought into their work."

If someone told me "it doesn't have to make sense" i'd be incredibly insulted by the insinuation that I shouldn't put more thought into things.
I'm not sure what you're getting at by linking that video. You can argue that Kojima's failed regarding Quiet and MGSV's narrative as that is a main part of the game. However this is also a game where you have the option to put on a chicken hat to make the game easier. Does that make sense in the context of the world? No, but it's a humorous option players can indulge in should they choose to do so. Not every optional thing in a video game needs to make sense in the context of the game's narrative/world.
 

bryanee

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Thinking about these games has made me realise how stacked the first quarter is. I was just doing some basic math figuring out how much video games in general are gonna cost me from now until April and its not fucking pretty. January alone see's four games I want, Tales of Berseria, RE7, GR2 and Yakuza 0.

Come March when Nier and Horizon come out my wallet will be crying...and then Switch.
 

Morrigan Stark

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I mean, I get the impulse. Rebutting bullshit is tiring. But, like, those aren't supposed to convince anyone, right? An uncharitable person could make an "SJW Complaints Bingo Card" with spaces like, "I need realism in my magic space adventure" or "You're being disrespectful to this collection of pixels" or "Developers should make the story I want instead of what they want to do," and it would be just as shitty.
But those are all strawman arguments no one actually makes. The stuff on the bingo card is there because people actually use these arguments, lol.

Kicking ass in heels is badass and looks cool. Rule of cool in full effect.
Ugh, no. There is nothing cool about high heels, especially not for combat settings.

He does have a sleeveless one that would also seem an unwise choice besides showing off his muscular arms
Er no. Arms don't need as much protection as vital organs, and for once the "more mobility" argument would actually work in favour of that. Where's Geralt's exposed mid-riff chest piece? Where's his partially unbuttoned shirt or open jacket look? Where's his speedo armour, his ass-window pants, his random-patches-of-exposed-skin set, his kinky skintight black leather suit, his <insert super-common "female" armour look>, etc.

And as mentioned can you also play like this if you want
What is that? Just removing all chest equipment?

options are nice
Let me know when the "options" are not horribly skewed towards one particular demographics, please.

I would just like to see the scales tip a little closer towards a balance. Be a little less outrageously sexist in their presentation. Is that really too much to ask? Apparently, judging from some of the responses here, the answer is yes. That's just bloody depressing, man.
^5
 

AngryNeox

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+ Kingdom Hearts 0.2 Birth By Sleep in January? (It is technically a new game right?)

But that doesn't mean anything. Platinum Games had Bayonetta and Korra (and possible other games I haven't played) with a female lead before.

It really doesn't matter what your main character is as long as the game is good IMO.

Beside that just dont force or change something because some people might not like it. *Looking at you cut Luna scenes from FFXV*.
 

Moonlight

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Beside that just dont force or change something because some people might not like it. *Looking at you cut Luna scenes from FFXV*.
...you mean all those scenes that do nothing but show Luna suffering and motivating herself to push through through her love of her man, and if kept, not only would have added literally nothing to the plot, would have done the seemingly impossible feat of making an unbelievably awful female character even worse?
 

sjay1994

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Beside that just dont force or change something because some people might not like it. *Looking at you cut Luna scenes from FFXV*.

...you mean all those scenes that do nothing but show Luna suffering and motivating herself to push through her love of her man, and if kept, not only would have added literally nothing to the plot, would have done the seemingly impossible feat of making an unbelievably awful female character even worse?
What is this thread anymore.
 
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It's important to not view this stuff in completely binary terms- a game can have female characters who are well-written/empowered/not-just-objects/etc *and* have elements that are primarily there to pander to the male audience with sex, and neither of them should automatically cancel out the other. If anything I'd argue that completely dismissing a character as a sexual object who is solely meant to pander to men just because of an outfit they wear or a pose/animation they have is *way* more problematic than the shit that some of y'all are complaining about in this thread.

I mean I thought the whole "you will be ashamed of your words and deeds" bit over Quiet was dumb too don't get me wrong but "THIS ONE OUTFIT EXPOSES HER MIDRIFF, GAME RUINED" is also pretty fuckin' stupid.
Yep.

It is the opposite of those who seek to sexually objectify but it is equally limiting and restrictive.

Edit - Or not even the opposite but rather a different shade of objectification.
 

Sub Boss

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Ugh, no. There is nothing cool about high heels, especially not for combat settings.


Er no. Arms don't need as much protection as vital organs, and for once the "more mobility" argument would actually work in favour of that. Where's Geralt's exposed mid-riff chest piece? Where's his partially unbuttoned shirt or open jacket look? Where's his speedo armour, his ass-window pants, his random-patches-of-exposed-skin set, his kinky skintight black leather suit, his <insert super-common "female" armour look>, etc.

Let me know when the "options" are not horribly skewed towards one particular demographics, please.

^5
i think high heels look super cool &#128526;

As for Geralt, fighting for more fanservice/representation for both genders is a good fight, but we may have to accept one day the ,umm industry is always going to favor women a bit more, most games target boys and most developers are male so its easier for them.

Kinda when PIXAR, of all revered studios was asked why they never made more movies with girl protagonists and they said simply because they were a bunch of guys lol.

I also say the whole art direction of Nier Automata is kind of icky or at least boring, a girl blinded with black dress, similar boy with shorts, drab looking environments, factories, robots, etc.

The game is still going to be lots of fun but i hope the characters are fleshed out and environments get more interesting to make up for the first impression.
 

Kinyou

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Er no. Arms don't need as much protection as vital organs, and for once the "more mobility" argument would actually work in favour of that. Where's Geralt's exposed mid-riff chest piece? Where's his partially unbuttoned shirt or open jacket look? Where's his speedo armour, his ass-window pants, his random-patches-of-exposed-skin set, his kinky skintight black leather suit, his <insert super-common "female" armour look>, etc.
I assumed we were still talking about Horizon which has none of that except for some midriff in a tropical setting.

What is that? Just removing all chest equipment?
Yea, but I can also guarantee you that you won't see anything like that in Horizon because people would lose their minds. I imagine there won't even be an option to remove all armor to see an undershirt.

Let me know when the "options" are not horribly skewed towards one particular demographics, please.
Again, I thought we were talking about Horizon. So far there appears to be only one outfit that shows some midriff.

Also why does the mobility argument work for Geralt but not with Aloy and the heat? If you look closely you see that a lot of the armor is pretty light, which makes sense for a tropical setting. This isn't plate mail interrupted by a sudden midriff.
 

Riposte

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Bingo cards are the absolute nadir of internet communication.

The whole "making sense" business can be boiled down to a single sentence: aesthetics > realism until I dislike the real world implications.
 

sensui-tomo

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But those are all strawman arguments no one actually makes. The stuff on the bingo card is there because people actually use these arguments, lol.
going to say that the "only if the character is better written" is a shitty thing that doesnt belong there since its a double edged sword that also defeats the reason its there since the statement is used by dumb asses who dislike lgbt characters and people who dislike poorly written characters in another game.(example female characters for ff15 )
 

AngryNeox

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...you mean all those scenes that do nothing but show Luna suffering and motivating herself to push through through her love of her man, and if kept, not only would have added literally nothing to the plot, would have done the seemingly impossible feat of making an unbelievably awful female character even worse?
Well we will probably never know how it actually would have been. But keeping just ONE scene where she is ill and powerless was just so stupid and made no sense. It was like: "Uh what actually happened and what does that mean?".
 

Mega

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Wait, what is wrong with her outfit? Lmao
Nothing.

Ugh, no. There is nothing cool about high heels, especially not for combat settings.
High heels are cool to lots of people and they're awesome and perfectly fine if a game isn't trying to be realistic and practical. Things can look cool for the sake of it, no deeper underlying meaning needed. The examples below lose the fun and whimsy with boring old flats or boots.

 

sonicmj1

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Speaking of, Nier's 2B wearing a thong definitely falls under this category for me as well. It just doesn't make sense. The heels likewise, though that may just me having a hate-on for heels (seriously, fuck them, you'd have to pay me to wear them). If that were simply a player option that'd be one thing, but no - it's her default outfit, a designer consciously put her into it, and there's nothing about her characterization that makes it clear why she would dress like that. It's nonsense.
Given what we know right now, I cannot imagine any way that 2B's outfit "makes sense" in a realistic way. Like, she's a combat android sent to take the earth back from whatever's taken it over, but she's running around in a dress with stockings and high heels. Her partner 9S is dressed like a schoolboy on vacation. If the people on the moon were serious about this, you'd think they'd send an army of T-800s with sword arms or something.

But that's the game's aesthetic choice. It's not like she's a weird aberration. All the androids are designed in a way that clearly does not put function first. So I can either accept that the world has heightened, unrealistic aesthetics, or I can get off the train now and seek out games with more realistic design sensibilities. Even with Yoko Taro, I'm not counting on some deep reasoning behind it that will knock my socks off.
 

Mega

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Oct 31, 2007
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This is an all-time great NeoGAF post.

Btw, when you say "we", are you including yourself?
Yeah, this site needs a hall of shame. That was a pretty arrogant and mean thing to say. Artists create great work for non-practical reasons all the time. I know I do... and would not appreciate some thinks-he-knows-it-all telling me I'm brainless because I don't hyper rationalize everything I create.
 
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